exchange kocans
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- Kibkommer
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exchange kocans
I know this is a property issue but I would be grateful for any info re any new laws.
My daughter is presently working/living in Hong Kong but would eventually like to return to the TRNC to be near her mam.
We have found a re sale apartment which is ideal, good size, price, location etc etc.
She has, as have most of us, worked very hard for all she has and obviously doesn't want to lose the lot.
The only thing that is worrying her is the fact that the kocan is exchange kocan and that one day a greek may come along and claim his land and ask for rent from the people who live in the apartments.
Basically, can anyone say, with absolute certainty that an exchange kocan is 'safe'?
My daughter is presently working/living in Hong Kong but would eventually like to return to the TRNC to be near her mam.
We have found a re sale apartment which is ideal, good size, price, location etc etc.
She has, as have most of us, worked very hard for all she has and obviously doesn't want to lose the lot.
The only thing that is worrying her is the fact that the kocan is exchange kocan and that one day a greek may come along and claim his land and ask for rent from the people who live in the apartments.
Basically, can anyone say, with absolute certainty that an exchange kocan is 'safe'?
Remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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- Kibkommer
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Re: exchange kocans
If you are looking for a 100% guarantee then the answer is no.
I could and I am sure others may explain why you should or should not buy ANY property in North Cyprus but your question has that simple answer.
I could and I am sure others may explain why you should or should not buy ANY property in North Cyprus but your question has that simple answer.
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- Kibkommer
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Re: exchange kocans
everybody is safe here until the so called CYPRUS PROBLEM is solved and two parts of the island are united.
If we are united, the GC will claim ALL properties here, no matter which title, even Turksh.
So , let's be optimistic and hope that CYPRUS PROBLEM is never solved.
If we are united, the GC will claim ALL properties here, no matter which title, even Turksh.
So , let's be optimistic and hope that CYPRUS PROBLEM is never solved.
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- Kibkommer
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Re: exchange kocans
They contributors above are absolutely correct, the KKTC is not the place to live if you want 100% guarantees. I would think the vast majority of properties are on exchange and there's no point in worrying about it. You pay's your money and takes your choice situation.
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- Kibkommer
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Re: exchange kocans
Just a comment on "exchange". There is no such item, it is a term, I believe, set up by estate agents to try to give some credence to their selling land originally owned by GC. ie infering that there was some legitamcy to selling GC land.
There have been some agreed settlements between North Cyprus and RoC for a small number of people's former lands.
There have been some agreed settlements between North Cyprus and RoC for a small number of people's former lands.
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- Kibkommer
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Re: exchange kocans
mmmm, quite a few of the Tc people that I have met are living on ''exchanged land''. One in particular lived on a large farm on the Greek side, his ''exchange'' after the conflict, is a small property on a not much bigger piece of land.
CIS, I'm aware that you have much more knowledge on the subject, but I just wanted to put my two penneth in,
CIS, I'm aware that you have much more knowledge on the subject, but I just wanted to put my two penneth in,
Don't live in the past, make new memories every day,
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- Kibkommer
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Re: exchange kocans
I understand what you are saying but there is no Legal transfer, ie a piece of paper that is signed by governments of both sides, as far as I am aware so can obviously be corrected.
- dippersgirl
- Kibkommer
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Re: exchange kocans
Am I right to think, that you cannot buy property now that belongs to a Turkish Cypriot now and has before 1974? Only TC's can buy it??
And what if a Greek Cypriot here offers his property to you? Has anything changed there?
And what if a Greek Cypriot here offers his property to you? Has anything changed there?
- erol
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Re: exchange kocans
The TRNC no longer officaly differenciates on types of deeds that it issues. It used to classify deeds in different categories but no longer does so.
However the different 'histories' of properties that the TRNC issues deeds for remains.
There is a material difference with 'exchange deed' land but you need to understand what 'exchange' means. Exchange deed property does NOT mean that the pre 74 GC owner of the land agreed to exchange their rights to this land post 74 for something else. What it does mean in simple terms is that a TC who had land in the south, after 1974 exchanged their rights to that land in the south with the TRNC government in exchange for pre 74 GC land in the North that the TRNC had taken effective control of after 74. So the 'exchange' element reffers to an exchange between a TC who lost land in the South and the TRNC government, it does not mean an exchange between a TC who lost land in the South and the GC who's land in the North they took over post 74. The point with exchange deed land is not that the pre 74 GC owner agreed to the exchange and thus can not make any claim against it but that in most cases with exchange deed land there is somewhere some 'balancing' pre 74 TC land in the South that was given up to the TRNC state by the TC who recived the land in the North from the TRNC state. In this sense it could be considered less risky than pre 74 GC land that the TRNC state took post 74 and assigned deeds to to private indivduals where no 'balancing' land in the South was given to the TRNC state in exchange.
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However the different 'histories' of properties that the TRNC issues deeds for remains.
There is a material difference with 'exchange deed' land but you need to understand what 'exchange' means. Exchange deed property does NOT mean that the pre 74 GC owner of the land agreed to exchange their rights to this land post 74 for something else. What it does mean in simple terms is that a TC who had land in the south, after 1974 exchanged their rights to that land in the south with the TRNC government in exchange for pre 74 GC land in the North that the TRNC had taken effective control of after 74. So the 'exchange' element reffers to an exchange between a TC who lost land in the South and the TRNC government, it does not mean an exchange between a TC who lost land in the South and the GC who's land in the North they took over post 74. The point with exchange deed land is not that the pre 74 GC owner agreed to the exchange and thus can not make any claim against it but that in most cases with exchange deed land there is somewhere some 'balancing' pre 74 TC land in the South that was given up to the TRNC state by the TC who recived the land in the North from the TRNC state. In this sense it could be considered less risky than pre 74 GC land that the TRNC state took post 74 and assigned deeds to to private indivduals where no 'balancing' land in the South was given to the TRNC state in exchange.
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- erol
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Re: exchange kocans
The situation with land in the North that was not GC pre 74 but was either TC pre 74 or owned by non Cypriots pre 74 is that such land should be free of any potential claim from the pre 74 owners and thus is essentialy safer than land that does have a pre 74 GC owner, as far as potential claims from said pre 74 owner are concerned. Whilst such pre 74 TC title and pre 74 'international (non cypriot)' title land is safe from GC claims against the land, there is a potential issue with regards to permission to purchase on such land for non cypriots. Any non Cypriot buying land in the North must get permission to purchase the land from the council of ministers. There is much evidence that whilst there is no specific legislation prohibiting non cypriots from buying pre 74 TC or international title land this permission to purchase process is being used as a means to stop such purchases. That is the council of ministers is just not granting permission to purchase to non cypriots trying to buy pre 74 tc or internatonal title land. Because this is being done behind closed doors and without any specific clear legislation there is confusion around this whole issue and some people will claim that non Cypriots are being given permission to purchase on both pre 74 TC title and pre 74 international title others claim they are only granting it on pre 74 international title but not pre 74 tc titles and yet others will say they are not granting it on either.
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- Kibkommer
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Re: exchange kocans
I would not recommend anyone buying property in North Cyprus unless you are prepared to loose money. It is not just the CYPRUS situation the country is bankrupt and the politicians have no idea what to do except line their pockets before the big bang arrives. There are only two options IMO for this country to survive and they are for Cyprus to become one or North Cyprus becomes a state of Turkey.
- Marions
- Kibkommer
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Re: exchange kocans
Donb't be too gloomy. ask around at people in high places! there is ALWAYS a risk buying abroad - take spain etc, but we make choices in life and many people have decided this is their home and they will take what comes. and it is pointless thinking that the solution of the Cyprus Problem will be all doom and gloom. I know there are various ideas around, one of which is that we become a province or state of Turkey (yes, it really could happen!) so that changes things.
I remember Denktash tlaking about exchange land. He put it so simply 'I gave him this and he gave me that' and of course once upon a time here it was all done on a handshake anyway.
Let your heart guide you, I reckon. I have lost money over property elsewhere, so one cannot say it will be only in Cyprus. As to the daughter - why doesn't she come and rent until she has decided what is right to her. By then many things may have changed.
To argue the rights and wrongs of exchange land is a bit of a dead end street.
Hope your daughter makes the right decision for her life, poster no.1 - and just think of the millionaires that have hit the ground and risen again. I am not one of them I might add. If I lose this, I will have to go cmaping at buck House, or some such. Oh, and I do have other property problems, but I would rather be here than on a council estate somewhere in G.B. where I had no inner peace or proper lifestyle.
I remember Denktash tlaking about exchange land. He put it so simply 'I gave him this and he gave me that' and of course once upon a time here it was all done on a handshake anyway.
Let your heart guide you, I reckon. I have lost money over property elsewhere, so one cannot say it will be only in Cyprus. As to the daughter - why doesn't she come and rent until she has decided what is right to her. By then many things may have changed.
To argue the rights and wrongs of exchange land is a bit of a dead end street.
Hope your daughter makes the right decision for her life, poster no.1 - and just think of the millionaires that have hit the ground and risen again. I am not one of them I might add. If I lose this, I will have to go cmaping at buck House, or some such. Oh, and I do have other property problems, but I would rather be here than on a council estate somewhere in G.B. where I had no inner peace or proper lifestyle.
Maid Marion of Malatya
'Plan as if you will live for ever, but live each day as if it is your last.'
'Plan as if you will live for ever, but live each day as if it is your last.'
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- Kibkommer
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Re: exchange kocans
Thank you all for your replies, especially Erol for your very detailed and informative reply which, I must admit took me a while to understand.
I was given a copy of the kocan to assure me that it is free of debts, mortgages etc and the present owners are Turkish, but where can I find out who owned the land pre 74?
As I am married to a TC, I have citizenship and was told by the estate agent that I could buy the apt in my name and once all transactions had been completed, ie deeds signed etc, I could then pay 185stg and 'gift' the property to my daughter, apparently this is legal between family members and does away with the need to get permission to purchase.
Another thing I did consider was buying the apartment in my name and immediately making a will to ensure that the property goes to my daughter in the event of my death.
The question is, would this make any difference with regards to the deeds,ie in the event of a settlement, could the property still be taken even though the present 'owner' was TC?
I was given a copy of the kocan to assure me that it is free of debts, mortgages etc and the present owners are Turkish, but where can I find out who owned the land pre 74?
As I am married to a TC, I have citizenship and was told by the estate agent that I could buy the apt in my name and once all transactions had been completed, ie deeds signed etc, I could then pay 185stg and 'gift' the property to my daughter, apparently this is legal between family members and does away with the need to get permission to purchase.
Another thing I did consider was buying the apartment in my name and immediately making a will to ensure that the property goes to my daughter in the event of my death.
The question is, would this make any difference with regards to the deeds,ie in the event of a settlement, could the property still be taken even though the present 'owner' was TC?
Remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
- Keithcaley
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Re: exchange kocans
I think that the only answer to that is: "It would depend entirely on what the terms of any such settlement were..."BLUE BUTTERFLY wrote:...The question is, would this make any difference with regards to the deeds,ie in the event of a settlement, could the property still be taken even though the present 'owner' was TC?
However, I can't see: (1) any TRNC politician of any hue putting his name to a settlement that would disenfranchise his electorate, so unless (2) we're taken over by Turkey, and they decide to shaft us in order to get into the EU, the answer would still be be NO ! - and I don't think that scenario (2) is very likely either
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- Kibkommer
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Re: exchange kocans
IPC
At present there is the above body that operates with the blessing of the ECHR it states that any claim on property by the" disposesed" owner should go through the IPC and settlement/reparations be made by them.No claim can be made on the occupant/owner of the property in the North research the IPC on C44
Hope this helps
At present there is the above body that operates with the blessing of the ECHR it states that any claim on property by the" disposesed" owner should go through the IPC and settlement/reparations be made by them.No claim can be made on the occupant/owner of the property in the North research the IPC on C44
Hope this helps
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- Kibkommer
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Re: exchange kocans
The IPC is great but may not be there as protection for exchange title owners. If it closes then the floodgates could open for private lawsuits using the oran's case as a precedent. I am not saying that this will happen but just might. I really hope not but it is a risk.
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- Kibkommer
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Re: exchange kocans
Turkey settling claims through the IPC sets a precedent also.
Some are wise and some otherwise.....
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- Kibkommer
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Re: exchange kocans
I am very grateful to you all for your input, you are all very helpful.
Wanderer, I will take your advice and research the IPC.
Again, thank you all
Wanderer, I will take your advice and research the IPC.
Again, thank you all
Remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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- Kibkommer
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Re: exchange kocans
bluebutterfly,
as you will see from the high quality of replies above,
there is no single simple answer to your quandry but
various questions have been raised
so instead one could look at the various probabilities
there is a high probabability any "exchange" purchase,
is offered cheaper than equivalent genuine turkish title
it's also a question of bargaining skills prior to purchase
as regards a "a greek" arriving, yes in theory someone
with a claim to anything anywhere could turn up one
fine day
except that any form of cyprus settlement defined as
a classic compromise could play out over a long period
and include far more in the way of cash compensation
which involves very little in the way of individual liability
even resulting in a modest increase in realty values
previous efforts at sharing a united island have failed
signally and if anything, and IMHO,
the communities drift further apart as the years roll by,
never mind claims sorted by the Properties Commission
for turkey to leave n.cyprus to its own devices, thus
allowing stavros free reign, this is indeed far-fetched
but the sort of purely theoretical scenario to consider
might be the break up of the unified turkish state,
a sudden conversion in favour of turkish
membership on the part of eu political leaders france
and germany etc...and all this looks a bit silly in print
finally as suggested above, there is a host
of more vital concerns and it is most important not to
be distracted from these when buying property:
a) anywhere
b) around the med-zone
c) in north cyprus
as you will see from the high quality of replies above,
there is no single simple answer to your quandry but
various questions have been raised
so instead one could look at the various probabilities
there is a high probabability any "exchange" purchase,
is offered cheaper than equivalent genuine turkish title
it's also a question of bargaining skills prior to purchase
as regards a "a greek" arriving, yes in theory someone
with a claim to anything anywhere could turn up one
fine day
except that any form of cyprus settlement defined as
a classic compromise could play out over a long period
and include far more in the way of cash compensation
which involves very little in the way of individual liability
even resulting in a modest increase in realty values
previous efforts at sharing a united island have failed
signally and if anything, and IMHO,
the communities drift further apart as the years roll by,
never mind claims sorted by the Properties Commission
for turkey to leave n.cyprus to its own devices, thus
allowing stavros free reign, this is indeed far-fetched
but the sort of purely theoretical scenario to consider
might be the break up of the unified turkish state,
a sudden conversion in favour of turkish
membership on the part of eu political leaders france
and germany etc...and all this looks a bit silly in print
finally as suggested above, there is a host
of more vital concerns and it is most important not to
be distracted from these when buying property:
a) anywhere
b) around the med-zone
c) in north cyprus
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- Kibkommer
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Re: exchange kocans
There have been some very intelligent and well thought replies to the original question, but I'm going to lower the tone just a tad i.e. If a Greek wanders over the mountains just behind us and recognizes what was, when we bought it, a snake infested lump of ground at least 40ft higher than it now is, I would be very surprised indeed. It was so dodgy, even the people we were buying from, didn't want to walk to the top!!
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- Kibkommer
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Re: exchange kocans
Ah, sophie they will have been to land registry in South Nicosia and got the original kocan with all the map references. How kind of you to develop that piece of land for this very nice GC person!!!!!!!!
One thing for certain, if this kindly GC person tries to offer you a piece of paper get the shotgun out and give him both barrels.
One thing for certain, if this kindly GC person tries to offer you a piece of paper get the shotgun out and give him both barrels.
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- Kibkommer
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Re: exchange kocans
c.i.s.,
anyone from outside the trnc, proffering legal papers
is liable for seven years in a fragrant north cyprus prison
so lowering the tone even further, it would be helpful
indeed as suggested to offer him or her "both barrels"
...but of north cyprus brandy instead:
after which any claims, as well as everything he ever
knew would most likely be erased from his memory
anyone from outside the trnc, proffering legal papers
is liable for seven years in a fragrant north cyprus prison
so lowering the tone even further, it would be helpful
indeed as suggested to offer him or her "both barrels"
...but of north cyprus brandy instead:
after which any claims, as well as everything he ever
knew would most likely be erased from his memory
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- Kibkommer
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Re: exchange kocans
andre514.
I take it you have not heard of the Orams case when you state anyone proffering legal papers will get 7 years!!!!!
I take it you have not heard of the Orams case when you state anyone proffering legal papers will get 7 years!!!!!
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- Kibkommer
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Re: exchange kocans
the 7 years' penalty was I believe our response to the greek
cypriots passing a law about north cyprus property during the case
...the orams went south to parly with the nicosia court perhaps not
a wise decision in retrospect
their property in uk has apparently never been touched and neither
has the claimant moved back to "his" house or IMHO ever will
yes, it has set a legal precedent ...but probably an unuseable one:
think properties commission
remember, onusually, it was the shell of an earlier building
european arrest warrants are under critical review with the coalition
and as stated above, there are many far more serious issues when
buying property here in north cyprus
cypriots passing a law about north cyprus property during the case
...the orams went south to parly with the nicosia court perhaps not
a wise decision in retrospect
their property in uk has apparently never been touched and neither
has the claimant moved back to "his" house or IMHO ever will
yes, it has set a legal precedent ...but probably an unuseable one:
think properties commission
remember, onusually, it was the shell of an earlier building
european arrest warrants are under critical review with the coalition
and as stated above, there are many far more serious issues when
buying property here in north cyprus
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- Kibkommer
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Re: exchange kocans
and fearing the arrival of the north cyprus constabulary,
it would be daring claimant who arrived in north cyprus
planning to knock on doors
shoddy building, dodgy developers .....and beauracratic
red type are the things that should lose people sleep!
it would be daring claimant who arrived in north cyprus
planning to knock on doors
shoddy building, dodgy developers .....and beauracratic
red type are the things that should lose people sleep!
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- Kibkommer
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Re: exchange kocans
I would like to ask though,
has anyone been granted an (exchange) kocan recently?
admittedly this has little to do with the original thread but...
there have been murmers recently that the trnc authorities
are less than keen to grant foreigners ownership of anything:
makes you wonder if the recent tax hike has more to do with
putting buyers off transfers, and much less to do with raising
revenue
has anyone been granted an (exchange) kocan recently?
admittedly this has little to do with the original thread but...
there have been murmers recently that the trnc authorities
are less than keen to grant foreigners ownership of anything:
makes you wonder if the recent tax hike has more to do with
putting buyers off transfers, and much less to do with raising
revenue
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- Kibkommer
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Re: exchange kocans
am very disheartened (not sure of the spelling of "disappointed" you see)
that nobody is able reply to my last query about exchange kocans
after all on the old forum it was one popular assumption that turkish title
kocans were being held back, due to the possibility of a future *solution
to the cyprus problem so what better then to palm off exchange land on
non-cypriots?
but the very idea that all "kocans for foreigners" are deliberately kept in
storage, places a very different complexion on the whole thing
*(whatever myriad possibilities "solution" may actually mean in practice)
that nobody is able reply to my last query about exchange kocans
after all on the old forum it was one popular assumption that turkish title
kocans were being held back, due to the possibility of a future *solution
to the cyprus problem so what better then to palm off exchange land on
non-cypriots?
but the very idea that all "kocans for foreigners" are deliberately kept in
storage, places a very different complexion on the whole thing
*(whatever myriad possibilities "solution" may actually mean in practice)
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- Kibkommer
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Re: exchange kocans
I ama personally aware of two peole issued with Exchange deeds issued recently!
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- Kibkommer
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Re: exchange kocans
thanks for the comment bert
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- Kibkommer
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Re: exchange kocans
Talking of Exchange Kocans, we paid for an apartment in 2007 and still can't get our Kocan. Whom do we turn to, other than the builders, who simply say that the property hasn't yet been parcelised. So far as we can see, none of the other apartments appear to be for sale but can we get our Kocan, even if another of the apartments does remain unsold? We haven't got a particularly good relationship with the agents that authorised the building of the block of apartments and we feel stuck. Long history but our contract wasn't worth the paper it was written on! Any advice, please.
Re: exchange kocans
Bought in 2007 myself so can tell you Kocan from the government have been available since 2011.
Problem is you need parcelisation of land to get Kocan. ( contact TAPU office they may be able to help )
Also you need site to be signed off as completed if it is flats then the whole complex must be completed, if individual houses then these can be signed off seperately.
Last problem you need to persuade builder to pay his tax, if he doesnt then you will be paying his and your own to get Kocan.
Problem is you need parcelisation of land to get Kocan. ( contact TAPU office they may be able to help )
Also you need site to be signed off as completed if it is flats then the whole complex must be completed, if individual houses then these can be signed off seperately.
Last problem you need to persuade builder to pay his tax, if he doesnt then you will be paying his and your own to get Kocan.
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- Kibkommer
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Re: exchange kocans
This the most sensible and well written thread I have ever read on a TRNC forum. For what it's worth, my advice is that it would be sensible to try to keep aside a lump sum (say 10% of the property) value to meet any compensation claims, especially if we become a province of Turkey.
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- Kibkommer
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Re: exchange kocans
Hi karakum5c what is the TAPU ? we have the Kocan for our land but not the house on it!!
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- Kibkommer
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Re: exchange kocans
Thanks for the info but I don't know what TAPU is either. Would be grateful for further info/details/location. Thanks.
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- Kibkommer
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Re: exchange kocans
The Tapu is the land registry office.
- £eagle
- Kibkommer
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Re: exchange kocans
Exchange Kocan are as secure as Turkish support for the TRNC. For the moment that is very secure.
A GC is obliged to apply to the Immovable Property Commission if he wants the restitution of his property or compensation. This has been definitively determined by the European Court on Human Rights in 2010 in the case of Demopoulos and Others versus Turkey. Proceedings brought in Greek Cyprus are now totally unenforceable outside the South and are worthless.
If the property has been registered in the name of a new owner only compensation is available. The compensation is payable by the government (of Turkey).
This does not mean that the GC government will be any more pleasant about things.
I have not read all the other replies, so I hope that this is not a repetition of the wisdom of others.
The £eagle
A GC is obliged to apply to the Immovable Property Commission if he wants the restitution of his property or compensation. This has been definitively determined by the European Court on Human Rights in 2010 in the case of Demopoulos and Others versus Turkey. Proceedings brought in Greek Cyprus are now totally unenforceable outside the South and are worthless.
If the property has been registered in the name of a new owner only compensation is available. The compensation is payable by the government (of Turkey).
This does not mean that the GC government will be any more pleasant about things.
I have not read all the other replies, so I hope that this is not a repetition of the wisdom of others.
The £eagle