New build - heating/cooling recommendations please?

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Chezzi
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New build - heating/cooling recommendations please?

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Post by Chezzi »

Hi all,
firstly apologies if this isn't the correct forum to post this, but I am building a new villa and am currently looking at all options available for heating and cooling and would appreciate feedback /opinions from anyone who has either done this themselves or has expert advice to offer. I am not going to live here unfortunately so will probably only use the Villa for approx 4 weeks during the winter, so heating is not such a significant issue, and would take a long time to claw back a much bigger outlay:

Option 1 Traditional rads and traditional A/C's - Pros, probably the cheapest option, Cons, more expensive to run, not much wall space to position, ugly to look at.
Option 2 Underfloor heating and traditional A/C's - Pros, cleaner, more efficient to run UF Heating, Cons, a lot more expensive to install, takes a lot longer to heat up
Option 3 VRF system for both heat and cool - Pros , ceiling mounted, less obtrusive, only 1 external unit Cons, expensive to install, requires false ceiling

Any info greatly appreciated. Concrete structure already built, hence VRF requires false ceilings.

Thanks in advance.

Harrythecod
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Re: New build - heating/cooling recommendations please?

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Post by Harrythecod »

Hi I am doing a project old house with new extension and basement after a lot of thoughts and meetings I have decided to do a daikon vriv for heating and cooling and daikin altherma for hot water and underfloor heating and towel rails not cheap but think best way for me good luck

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Re: New build - heating/cooling recommendations please?

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Post by dani »

I think Inverter AC units are the most cost effective and efficient method of cooling and heating. We have UF heating too but vary rarely use it as it is incredibly expensive to run.

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Re: New build - heating/cooling recommendations please?

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Post by MVP »

Some friends had underfloor heating, they soon stopped using it when they realised how much
It cost to run and installed a log burner.

A.c. units are great for a quick take the chill off a room but are noisy for continued use.

I would say your best bet is a log burner , a portable gas heater, and Ac units if the house is used in summer.

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Re: New build - heating/cooling recommendations please?

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Post by Chezzi »

Thanks guys so far..... I should have said, we are having a smaller winter lounge with wood burner, so heating will be just to take the chill off the rest of the house.
What is a daikon vriv? I have not heard of that one and google it not heloing?

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Re: New build - heating/cooling recommendations please?

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Post by Harrythecod »

Sorry it is a product in the daikin vrv range

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Re: New build - heating/cooling recommendations please?

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Post by Chezzi »

Harrythecod, thanks very much, it sounds like the daikon vrv is similar to the vrf which has been proposed. How are you finding the running costs so far? Did you use the ceiling mounted units? How did you manage with existing concrete ceilings?
My new villa is a little on the large size and I am worried that anything other than traditional rads wont be man enough for the job, but at the same time, I'm not keen on using them.
Also who did your installation as I would be interested in talking to them?

Sorry for all the questions but it sounds similar to what is being proposed.

Many thanks.

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Re: New build - heating/cooling recommendations please?

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Post by finchy »

Hello Chezzi,

If I was ever to build a new villa in Cyprus, or anywhere for that matter, my initial spend would be to insulate the villa as best as possible, no short cuts. Better insulation will limit heat losses in the winter and heat gains in the summer.

We've had our villa 9 years but have only lived here 18 months. In that time we have had to change a few things but unfortunately, due to the shocking build quality we are stuck with what we've got.

What we have had to do in the last 12 months:

a) Replaced conventional solar cylinder with heat pump unit nearer to first draw off point.
b) Replaced original poor quality log burner with high efficiency log burner with hot box, it's good but we still need to fire it up before it gets cold as our lounge ceiling is 4 metres high.
c) Had a PV system installed that should generate in the region of 8000kWhrs over a 12 month period

We don't use the radiator system as it just uses too much gas but this means unheated rooms are really cold. bedrooms that aren't occupied can get a little bit damp.

if I can get some more money together lol, then I intend to do the following:

1) Drop the ceiling in the bathrooms and lounge and add 150mm insulation.
2) Change the gas boiler to an air to water heat pump so that I can run the radiator system.

Sorry, now onto your points

Option 1 - Traditional rads and A/C - radiators are good but the gas is expensive to run the boiler. A/C with inverter, fine for both heating and cooling but without rads your bathrooms will be cold.

Option 2 - As you say, underfloor heating has a large time lag, problem here is that even in winter during the day isn't that bad but as soon as the sun goes down, boom you want something that responds quickly. As above gas is expensive to run the boiler.

Option 3 - VRF/VRV whatever you want to call it will be more expensive than individual splits and probably a bit over the top for a villa. I also wouldn't fancy a lot of refrigerant pipework running in my ceiling void. For a two pipe system the whole system will either run in heating or cooling (can vary temp in rooms but not the mode), you would need a three pipe system if you wanted total flexibility (heating in some rooms and cooling in others).


So if I was to build my own villa I would it this way.
1. Good insulation to floor, external walls, roof and the best glazing I could get.
2. Individual split systems for where A/C is needed. Possible use of a twin split where possible.
3. Hot water generated using a heat pump (1kW a day for constant hot water)
4. High efficiency log burner with heat box.
5. Radiators throughout the house (wet system) - see 6
6. Air to water heat pump as the heat source for the radiators.
7. PV solar system to generate enough electricity to run villa.

With good insulation, running costs will be minimal.

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Re: New build - heating/cooling recommendations please?

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Post by Keithcaley »

Just to add to finchy's list - none of which I would disagree with: -

No excessively high ceilings.
Ceiling fans to pull hot air down in Winter, and to provide a cooling draught in Summer.
Make sure that there are sufficient doors between different areas, so that the areas in which you sit can be closed off, making it more economical to heat/cool them.
No staircase in Living Room - otherwise all the heat goes straight upstairs!
Shutters fitted to all windows on the South side of the house - and a minimal number of windows on that side anyway.
No doubt others will have their own preferences...

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Re: New build - heating/cooling recommendations please?

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Post by Soner »

In process of sending over Rointe electric radiators that are energy efficient for heating and can be controlled by smartphone via wifi. As for bringing electricity costs down, will have solar panels installed, generating 6KWH. Will look into insulating external walls and ceilings in future, once Celotex plasterboards are available in TRNC. Fingers crossed....
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Re: New build - heating/cooling recommendations please?

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Post by Keithcaley »

...Rointe electric radiators that are energy efficient...
Sorry to disappoint you but any old electric radiator will produce 1 KW of heat for every KW of electricity consumed...

If you want efficiency then use a heat pump system (the most well known is called an Aircon!) because you only pay for the electricity used to MOVE heat from one place to another, not for turning electrical energy directly into heat energy.

Look for the EER (Energy Efficiency Rating) - "The air conditioner EER is its British thermal units (BTU) rating over its wattage. For example, if a 10,000-BTU air conditioner consumes 1,200 watts, its rating is 8.3 (10,000 BTU/1,200 watts). The higher the rating is, the more efficient the air conditioning unit is."

In other words, using the example above, you could get 8.3 KW of heat for 1 KW of electricity.

I'm not saying that this is representative of any particular make or model, it's just to illustrate what I mean.

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Post by Soner »

Oh dear.... not sure if I have made a mistake, but do not like heating home in winter with aircons.
This is what I have taken of the Pointe site:

Savings with maximum efficiency

Delta Ultimate is not only a home heating automation system which provides maximum comfort to your home,the Delta Ultimate goes much further.

The most advanced heating system ever created by Rointe incorporates Fuzzy Logic Energy Control, the new low power technology developed by Rointe. Fuzzy Logic Energy Control has evolved from its predecessor Optimizer Energy Plus – with a faster and more effective start-up period allowing the initial heating phase to be stabilized, thus reducing the equivalent ratio of consumption to 38%.

But what does that mean? We know concepts such as 'equivalent consumption coefficient' sound complicated, so we will make them easy to understand.

During tests performed in independent laboratories under specified parameters, a Rointe radiator with Optimizer Energy plus patented technology heating a 12m2 room to a set temperature of 21ºC for a period of 24 hours only uses power for less than half of the time, in fact only 40% of the time. So, it only uses 40% of the nominal power that it has available.

In other words, to keep the room at 21ºC for 24 hours the radiator only has to work for 40% of the time, which we define as equivalent consumption coefficient.

According to tests conducted by Rointe on the Delta Ultimate range incorporating the Fuzzy Logic Energy Control, the consumption is reduced by a further 6% from the Optimizer Energy Plus – taking the equivalent consumption coefficient to 38%.

The range of Delta Ultimate radiators have been designed down to the smallest detail. With an innovative curved design and slim-line aluminium side locks, the back lit touch control panel, the new advanced Fuzzy Logic Energy Control and E-Life Technology technologies - all make the Delta Ultimate radiator the flagship of the brand.

Low Consumption

Thanks to its Fuzzy Logic Energy Control technology, the average power consumed by the Delta Ultimate radiators accounts for only 38% of its rated power.
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Re: New build - heating/cooling recommendations please?

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Post by finchy »

Keith - better looking for SEER rating than EER as EER results are give at set indoor and outdoor temperatures and 50%RH, it doesn't take into account any seasonal changes.

I really wish that we could get 8.3kW of heating or cooling for 1kW of electricity, I had to look twice at what you had done in your example.
Unfortunately, you can't divide BTU's output by kW input and get your answer in kW.

10,000 BTU's = 2930watts

Therefore, for the particular unit you are referring to you would get 2930watts of output for 1200watts of input

COP = 2930/1200

= 2.4

COP - Coefficient of performance

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Re: New build - heating/cooling recommendations please?

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Post by Keithcaley »

Oh well...

It was just an example that I found, and I didn't mean it to relate to any actual real World situation.

I did read that the SEER/EER situation was the other way around, which was why I said EER rather than SEER, but I'll bow to your superior knowledge

You do still get a lot more heat for your money with a heat pump than with a radiator though!

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Re: New build - heating/cooling recommendations please?

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Post by finchy »

Yes Keith I agree, aircon units are more efficient than electric heaters.

The best solution to anything though is better insulation of the building

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Re: New build - heating/cooling recommendations please?

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Post by ljarvo »

Chezzi - we haven't had the system the Daikin system installed yet but if you would like further information and you are in Cyprus if you wish PM your contact details and harrythecod is happy to talk through how we made our decision etc Thank you

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Post by Chezzi »

Hi all, and thanks v much for all the information... I am not sure now if I am losing the will to live....
Good point about the bathrooms if not using rads, I hadn't thought of that one so thanks for pointing that one out.

Concrete structure, wall, ceilings etc already built and I am scared to say here that I have gone TOTALLY against all Cypriot recommendations and have nice big windows in the South (hate the small windows and our views are just too fab to shut out!). Villa is going to have a lot of glass on the North side, so will need to be good glass (recommendations on that too please).
We were originally using insulated bricks but got talked out of them by our Chartered Surveyor. Ceilings are all this new specification of half foam/half steel and very little concrete, (lighter but stronger structure) so hopefully the foam will help with insulation.

I have been lead to believe that a heat pump will not provide high enough heat for rads? is this not the case?

PV Electric? all enquires I have made on this so far have been met with scratched heads and a slating of rubbish Chinese systems / expensive Panasonic .

Please bear in mind that as I only intend to use the villa for about 4 weeks in the winter, is it worth investing huge additional outlay costs if I'm never going to use it enough to recoup?

Thanks again everyone, really interesting.

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Re: New build - heating/cooling recommendations please?

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Post by alphamike »

I have central heating with radiators installed in all rooms and bathrooms, but not hallway, but rarely use it, as it is so expensive compared to running inverter a/c units, which are in all main rooms, but not in kitchen or downstairs and upstairs hall areas.

The problem is cold bathrooms in winter. I suggest wooden toilet seats, and a wall fan heater. The latter is not terribly expensive to run for the short periods that heating would be needed, and would be much cheaper than using radiators, and they are not expensive to buy or install.

I think that you might regret those big windows during the heat of the summer. Cannot advise on glass, but well worth investigating something to keep out the heat. Blackout lining in curtains helps a lot on the interior design aspect, and works well in winter too. Problem being that the glass soaks in the heat in the summer, so if you can find something at the planning stage that blocks it out, all the better, than try to remedy later. Maybe a pergola would create the shade? Shutters on the windows might be an idea.

Ceiling fans work really well in creating a draught and keeping you cool. They won't cut the height of summer on their own, but combined with a/c, you can turn the a/c up a couple of degrees to still keep you cool. Better to go with something with 5 blades or more. I have some with 4 blades, and not as good as the 5 blade one.

I have read recently (unfortunately cannot remember the source), that it was a great idea for cooling the upstairs of a house, to have a ceiling fan at the top of the stairs. If anyone has this set up, and finds it works, would really like to know.

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Re: New build - heating/cooling recommendations please?

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Post by kerry 6138 »

Soner wrote:In process of sending over Rointe electric radiators that are energy efficient for heating and can be controlled by smartphone via wifi. As for bringing electricity costs down, will have solar panels installed, generating 6KWH. Will look into insulating external walls and ceilings in future, once Celotex plasterboards are available in TRNC. Fingers crossed....
i guess you didnt watch last nights Panorama about Grenfell and the Celotex cladding ?

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Re: New build - heating/cooling recommendations please?

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Post by jimm »

if you are doing a build do not forget about installing a damp course

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Re: New build - heating/cooling recommendations please?

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Post by Soner »

Kerry, I missed it but did see something on the news. However, it is still part of UK Building Regulations to insulate external walls from the inside with 150mm Celotex plasterboards, when converting a property into flats.
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Re: New build - heating/cooling recommendations please?

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Post by finchy »

Chezzi - Before you go any further you need to have a discussion with your Chartered Surveyor to determine what the U values (thermal transmittance) are for each element in your building, floor and walls roof. You say you haven't determined what glazing you are going for yet tho. If the U values for construction are as bad as everywhere else then you will quickly need to determine what you can do to improve.

Regarding glazing on the south side oh my, you are going to have to take some time sourcing the best glazing possible-something like Suncool by Pilkingtons but not sure if you can get that over here? May be a good idea to consider building some external solar shading into your design.

Regarding the air to water heat pump, ok it's not a boiler and it does produce a lower grade of heat but most operate on a cop of around 3.5 so 1kW in and 3.5kW out. Is a heat pump worth it though if by the sounds of it you are going to need a lot of cooling.

Yes we have PV and no it's not Chinese. Speak to Kibsolar on this forum if you need more information.

Do you have your villa drawn up in Autocad? If it is, would you be interested in me producing a 3D model for you to provide simulation and energy analysis? It will provide you with accurate heat gains and losses to the building in it's current design.

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Re: New build - heating/cooling recommendations please?

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Post by kibsolar1999 »

What finchy said is absolutely right.
the knowledge of architects and builders/ developers about energy issues… eg, ask a builder what a U value is!... and general building standarts in this country is, as finchy said, shocking. Either they really have no clue.. or.. some know, but ignore these issues on purpose.
To be competitive on the market, to maximize profits. Or both. Some years ago the gov wanted to change building regulations.. and this was opposed by the lobby… argumentation: the industry would be “dead”. One developer told me … we don’t want to worry our customers too much about it… well, after the sale it will be not the developers worries any more.
So, we remain with: bad house designs, no floor, wall or roof insulation, bad windows incl the use of sliding doors/windows.. not even insulated hot water pipes, no proper water pump …and this even in 250k + homes… the list is long.
It makes a big difference whether you need and cool “against” heat losses /gains of 300 kWh (needs) per m² living area or to live in a good insulated house with 30kWh/m²/ year ( the so called “3 liter home”) of energy needs.
No wonder that many “complaint” about that it is cold-hot-damp in hall, or upstairs or everywhere, complaint about the costs of electricity, gas, oil or whatever. And ... discussing whether “4 or 5 blades for a fan are better” .
The use of best cop heat pumps and so on, is mandatory.. and “go solar” (PV , solar hot water or solar hot air) is “logical” anyway…
but a good energy design goes a bit further.. considering many aspects of eg, air exchange rate, shading (window orientation..) and so on.. also some knowledge would be nice eg about “real temperature and felt temperature”..
There is plenty of info available in the internet.. but the thematic is quite complex, you need an expert.
I would accept the offer from finchy and get a idea of how much energy the building would need.
We, as kibsolar (AGD Solar) did win back 10 years, three awards for the “national category Cyprus” for
2007: first zero energy house in north Cyprus, 2008: a new solar water heater, 2009: renovation of an old Cypriot house to better energy efficiency.
http://www.energyglobe.info/

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