Affordable solar energy

yrs · Post by **yrs** » Mon 02 Sep 2013 3:56 pm

If anyone needs help in setting up a solar system at affordable prices pls ask.

Thanks

Hippocampus · Post by **Hippocampus** » Mon 02 Sep 2013 4:53 pm

What is an affordable price? The last I heard was that solar electricity systems in this country cost as much to install as the cost of a Kibtek supply for about 20 yrs for a two person household plus pool, so really are not worth it for your average, somewhat aged, ex pat.

kedikat2903 · Post by **kedikat2903** » Sat 02 Nov 2013 10:43 am

Could you give directions to your shop from Ledra Street please

Halffull · Post by **Halffull** » Sat 02 Nov 2013 1:11 pm

Sounds too good to be true, can you work in the North?

£eagle · Post by **£eagle** » Sat 02 Nov 2013 2:31 pm

Insolation in Cyprus - the amount of solar energy hitting the ground - is about 2000kw/h per square metre per year. How much electricity you can generate from that solar bounty depends on the number of panels used and their efficiency.

For example, two 1.5sqM panels operating at a typical 15% efficiency could generate a maximum of about 900kw/h (units) per year worth about 360tl ,at Kibcom prices. That rate of production would only be generated by sun tracking units which are constantly cleaned. Otherwise there is a big loss of electrical production.
Whilst panels last a long time their cost should be written off over a period of not more than, say, 20 years as most people move, or die, within that time period and an old system will add nothing to the value of a house on resale.
Another question to be answered is whether Kibkom will pay for, or give credit for, surplus power generated during the day. I have heard that, in practice, they refuse to pay but what the truth is I don't know. I don't mind giving Kibkom 10 surplus units free during the day if they will give me 10 back, free, at night. Otherwise, the economics is shot to pieces.

If you can show that a system can be cost effective, which is not the same as affordable, I would be interested in a system to produce say 5-6000 kw/h per annum which, over 20 years, costs me no more than buying mains power. Can I save the environment and my wallet?

owl · Post by **owl** » Sun 03 Nov 2013 3:45 pm

Cost of electricity per unit is basically fixed for life with solar.
Cost of mains per unit will be what? in 10 or 20 years.

Uk prices have doubled in 10 years and are expected to double again over the next 10. Kibtek price rises will probably be similar or even higher due to costly, outdated, inefficient and polluting plants, which, as with the UK, are dependent on world prices.
It is unlikely NC will be developing 'home grown' capacity from Fracking etc. or building new efficient power plants. There has already been press comment of a possible 30% rise in the near future on top of already very expensive electricity.
NC is possibly one of the best locations in the 'western' world for efficient solar.

Electricity costs in NC may well be fourfold todays in 20 years time, worth thinking about if you are on a limited or fixed income or pension.

You get out of solar what you put in. If you just want some top-up to the mains, or just a solar powered pool (Pools can use 20-30% of your bill!), you can with a small system for not a great investment, maybe just £2-3,000. If you want to go fully off-grid you need to invest between £15,000 and £25,000 depending on your power usage. You also then have the joy of using as much power as you want for heating/cooling/pool etc. without worrying about ANY bills.

The latest panels do not have to be due S facing, between SE and SW will be quite efficient enough without the need for tracking arrays which are visually unattractive, costly and space hungry, if you have the space, ground mounted panels are very practical and cheaper for installation or maintenance. Neither do you need to worry about 'dirty' panels, the fall-off or power is minimal. Be honest! When did you last clean your hot water roof panels?

I am fully off-grid and my panels produce Kw's of power over an hour before the sun strikes and after it leaves them, same on the darkest stormy days. The 'smart meter' gives an excellent performance 'history' as well as power left for night and full system stats, a real 'big boys toy'! Even using aircons at night has never left the batteries below 70% capacity.

Always get a professional with a history of installations to visit to establish your site/power usage etc. They will give you all the options.

Owl

eco free electric · Post by **eco free electric** » Sun 03 Nov 2013 4:03 pm

We Are on the main road from Girne to Catalkoy in karakum opersite the stroll inn
we can install in north cyprus and we will carry out all the applications to kib tek and the goverment
It is worth knowing that kib tek will give you 1.25kwh for every 5kwh Generated,Also we can get 25% grant for you from the goverment
http://www.ecofreeelectric.com

kathsj · Post by **kathsj** » Sun 03 Nov 2013 4:33 pm

The unsolicited and unwelcome PM that I have just received says from 1500£.
Kath

Dalartokat · Post by **Dalartokat** » Sun 03 Nov 2013 5:03 pm

Same as message 8.

kaiserphil · Post by **kaiserphil** » Sun 03 Nov 2013 5:23 pm

Me too. What a ruddy cheek!

Cally · Post by **Cally** » Sun 03 Nov 2013 5:41 pm

ditto

eco free electric · Post by **eco free electric** » Sun 03 Nov 2013 5:46 pm

Apologies for the email I have only just joined and it was a mistake

Col · Post by **Col** » Sun 03 Nov 2013 6:52 pm

Many thanks also for the email!

Owl's post reads very much like an advert for solar.

"I am fully off-grid and my panels produce Kw's of power over an hour before the sun strikes and after it leaves them, same on the darkest stormy days."

I would be interested to know what capacity system you have, we have a 3.84 kw in the u.k. and on dark stormy days we are lucky to get 275w.

"You also then have the joy of using as much power as you want for heating/cooling/pool etc. without worrying about ANY bills." With respect Owl, I would be very interested to know what size solar and battery back up system is going to give you enough power to heat a house at night (likewise cool it) also bearing in mind that battery return would be 50% if you are lucky.
I am not saying either way whether there is a financial incentive for solar in TRNC but let us look at the facts rather than fiction.

Solar works well for us in the u.k. because of the feed in tariff at nearly 50p a unit going in. We have no maintenance issues or replacement costs with batteries although we do have to consider that the inverter might need replacing at some time.

journey1 · Post by **journey1** » Sun 03 Nov 2013 9:51 pm

In Scotland around 1989, my husband built us a new house and put in solar panels ..........almost unheard of at the time..........believe me even in the winter they took the first few degrees off the the freezing water and as I understand to date ( house was subsequently sold) there have been no replacements required on the original product. It was an American company that I recall.
Nowadays, in Uk we are soooooooooooo inundated with unsolicited calls about solar energy that I could scream and maybe you heard me hear when I received an email via this forum to that effect!
Admin please take note. We do not want a repeat situation creeping up on us here too!

owl · Post by **owl** » Sun 03 Nov 2013 11:18 pm

Hi Col

I have just returned to the UK but will be back in NC in March/April. I would be delighted to then show you round the system. Feel free to PM me nearer the time.

Basically:
35 panels. 3 for DC pool pump. 24 for daytime solar. 8 for battery charging.
2 Inverters. 1 X 10KVA for solar. 1 X 6KVA for batteries.
1 Master Controller. 1 battery controller. 1 Smart Meter/controller. Lightning conductors. 250A breakers. 500A shunts. etc.
12 X 4v batteries (each weighing 120kg, nearly 1 1/2 tons of muscle!).
Nominal battery capacity 60KWh @ 12 hrs @ 60%DoD.
Solar capacity 15Kw cont. in Sun. 10Kw cont. in full cloud + around 60% of that 1 hr before & after sun 'strike'.

Potentially enough capacity to sell my neighbour electricity for his villa, which at the right price, saving him 50% of current bills, would obviously speed up my ROI dramatically!

Post by **Soner** » Sun 03 Nov 2013 11:20 pm

Journey1, anyone sending out spam mail will be banned. Please let me know if this happens again, and by whom.

TAFF44 · Post by **TAFF44** » Mon 04 Nov 2013 8:09 am

Same as 8,9 and 10, get enough spam without forums sending them out.

journey1 · Post by **journey1** » Mon 04 Nov 2013 8:33 am

Soner
thanks
It has been sent out to all Kibcom group via eco free electric

Col · Post by **Col** » Mon 04 Nov 2013 10:59 am

Owl, many thanks again for your invite which was as welcome as the original email spam on solar.

Not being in Cyprus for most of the time Solar is not for me. If it were I think 35 panels would put me off as finding a location for 16 in the u.k. was enough.

For the record you have not answered the questions re the size of system to provide endless power for heating and cooling, 8 panels for battery charging clearly is not going to do it!

For solar to work in any fashion in Cyprus it has to be reliant on storage, it does not matter how many panels you have there is only so much power you want to use during the day, yes you can do the washing and it can run the pool pump but trying to put all the items on at different times can be bothersome.

owl · Post by **owl** » Mon 04 Nov 2013 12:06 pm

col

You obviously missed my details of battery storage and it's capacity. 8 panels purely for battery charging is more than enough, as the Smart meter shows me.

Col · Post by **Col** » Mon 04 Nov 2013 2:30 pm

Now I do not know if this will get read but no I did not miss the details of battery storage. Please advise me of the electricity that 8 panels will generate on an average day and what that will equate to when the losses of battery storage are taken into consideration.

You only get out what you put in with solar, well actually we know batteries are not efficient so you will only get out 50% if you are lucky.

What would be the cost for this system?

owl · Post by **owl** » Mon 04 Nov 2013 6:11 pm

Col

The master charger/controller shows a charge rate of 3-4Kwh during the day. Ample to restore 100% charge from a 60-80% balance rate after a heavy night of use. The house smart panel usually shows batteries at 100% charge within just a few hours of daylight.
When installed the system and batteries are optimised and balanced via a usb connected laptop and software to balance the system to give the maximum battery performance and life that deep cycle marine type batteries require.

My open invitation to you still stands whereby you could actually see the charge rates and battery performance 'live'.

Col · Post by **Col** » Mon 04 Nov 2013 6:58 pm

from what you say you are also using the other panels to charge the batteries as you would not be able to get 3-4kwh from 8 panels.

What is the total kwh going into the batteries and what kwh could you expect to get from the batteries before discharged?

Still need to hear how much such a system costs, also life expectancy of batteries.

I do have great interest in solar in general but I still have doubts over it's payback in the TRNC. I can however see benefits for a pool pump if a simple low cost system used.

owl · Post by **owl** » Mon 04 Nov 2013 10:48 pm

Col

8 panels provide 3-4Kwh @ 48v from the Charge Controller.
Deep Cycle batteries are not designed to be fully discharged, which is why a Charge Controller is required. This enables the system to be set up with individual parameters of Depth of Discharge, operating temperature, Refloat and Cut-Off voltage etc. Once a system has been correctly balanced, well maintained quality batteries should have a life expectancy of 15+years before they start to give reduced output, though this reduction may be quite small per year. My batteries are set to drain to 50%.

As for costs, mine are a bit meaningless as I included quite a few extras and went for more capacity than technically needed. I like the luxury of having aircons on cool or heat as well as Imm Heater and oven on whenever without worrying.

An off-grid guideline for a 3 bed Villa with pool would be between £12,000 and £18,000 depending on spec

Col · Post by **Col** » Tue 05 Nov 2013 11:35 pm

Still confused owl. What is the total output on an average day from the 8 panels and what is the total output from the batteries after charging. I cannot see how you would be able to run air con or heating, immersion and oven from 8 panels!

owl · Post by **owl** » Thu 07 Nov 2013 12:21 am

Col

I don't know how long you have had your panels, roof or ground fitted, or their size/no of cells etc, but it sounds they are 200-250w rated. So 16 will give you 3.8Kwh as you say.
My panels are recent multi cell hi output units, meaning they will probably be superceded very soon. There is news of standard panels of 1Kw+ within 2 years with more to come.
I haven't got my tech sheets for the panels here in the UK, but as the 8 'battery' panels do give 3.5-4.5Kwh and the 24 'Solar' panels give 10-13Kwh for suntime use, I assume they are producing 500w+ each.
Position is also critical. Very few pitched roofs face due South, or at the right inclination to the horizon. This can reduce output. Luckily I had enough unobtrusive space for ground mounting, ensuring direction and inclination were spot on.
My batteries are rated at 60Kwh, so as they're set for 50% discharge, I have 30Kwh available for nightime use. If I needed more, I could rest the batteries to a lower discharge limit. Deep Cycle batteries also have the characteristic of 'under load' recovery of available power even when not being charged.

it's a pity I'm not out there at present as I could then give a running report from the Smart meter!

Col · Post by **Col** » Thu 07 Nov 2013 1:34 pm

Mine have been in a couple of years now but still were regarded as very efficient as we could only fit 16 on they needed to be to get us as close to the feed in tariff max. They produce 190w per m2 max and about 19% efficient. So 3.84kwp system with predicted 3.3kwp.

Lets assume your panels are 500w and give an average of shall we say 3kwh (which would be very generous) over an 8 hour period you would produce 24kwh, this would reduce by around 50% after battery storage giving you only 12kwh for consumption.

owl · Post by **owl** » Thu 07 Nov 2013 4:21 pm

Col
My readings of 3.5-4.5Kwh are not panel output, they are after the charger/controller has converted panel input to 48V. A lot depends on whether panels are connected in series, parallel, or a combination to suit the battery system voltage and capacity. Some systems are 12v, 24v etc, each would get a different Kwh rating from the same panels after voltage conversion.
Forget any preconceptions you may have in comparing 'proper' storage batteries with regular car or lorry batteries, they are chalk & cheese. Deep cycle batteries do not suffer such losses as you are thinking. If mine have dropped 50% to 30Kwh, they recharge to 100% after a few hours due partly to their nature of power recovery. I have tested the system under continuous load at night, no problem. I have never seen any charge loss in a no-load situation.
This is why the batteries are very expensive, for example my 12 were over £900 each. It is also important to buy the highest spec batteries you can. Mine are Rolls, from Canada, widely regarded as the 'Rolls' of batteries.

I dread to think what quality of panels, Inverters, Chargers and batteries some of these 'Cheapest Solar' businesses are using! ;-(

Col · Post by **Col** » Thu 07 Nov 2013 9:05 pm

Sounds like you have a good system Owl. I know that batteries have come a long way but I was not confusing them with normal batteries. All batteries will lose efficiency as the years go by, as will the solar system itself. there seems to be some discrepancy already if it only takes a few hours to take the battery from 50% at 30kwh to full 60kwh using 8 panels. By my calculation allowing 100% efficiency it would take 7.5 hours at maximum output from the panels.

It seems that the jury is still out on how much battery storage adds to the cost per kwh long term to solar, one thing I believe to be true is that without a feed in tariff it would still be essential to benefit at all on a larger solar system. I see your batteries have a life span of between 7-20 years, the spread of lifespan itself showing how approximate a science it is.

The issues over battery storage lead my neighbour to invest what was/is a huge chunk of money into a hydrogen fuel cell.It was one of seven in the world at the time to be using renewable energy from solar, wind and a small amount of hydro from a lake. It is look after by research people from the university who are looking at ways of making the technology more efficient. It does however have the benefit of keeping energy stored for long periods with no loss in efficiency, also in having one of the worlds few true solar and wind powered car running on hydrogen. We were going to be a part of it using the electric but it was going to cost £30,000 for the cables.

In my opinion a feed in tariff (even if it was only at the cost of normal generation) or community schemes where power generated can be used without storage would be preferential to each having our own storage, however it seems that at the moment we have no choice.

journey1 · Post by **journey1** » Thu 07 Nov 2013 9:28 pm

Be patient and wait ..................it will catch up soon I am sure.

kibsolar1999 · Post by **kibsolar1999** » Thu 28 Nov 2013 7:44 am

Owl, Col.. nice discussion
it took me a moment...to realize that “I somehow know Owls system”…
It is a so called AC-DC coupled off-grid system.
Used are 215 Wp EU made poly modules
3 in series are used to run the LORENTZ solar pool pump.
24 are connected to a SMA SMC 6000A grid inverter (in off-grid modus).
If needed, a Victron Quattro 10kVA off-grid inverter-charger can take additional power from the batteries, which is unlikely during a sunny summer day even with a/c on , generated excess solar power will charge the batteries ( Quattros inbuild 6,7 kW charger) to be “fully charged” for the night incl aircon use.
Here “all the sufficient energy comes from” Owl was talking about. Not 8 only panels are used to charge the batteries… we use the full 32.
8 solar modules and a MidNite Classic MPPT charge controller are used for additional power (kWh) and to use solar power during the frequency shift (initiated by the Quattro inverter), which will put the SMA inverter off. (when batteries are nearly full)
All connected to a nominal 48VDC, 1100Ah @ C20 battery bank from Rolls (5000 series)
Whenever a grid feed connection becomes legal, it takes only a couple of minutes to connect the system to the grid and change the system configurations to a “selfconsumption grid feed system”.
We offer several systems of these kind and are strongly future orientated.
We are very proud that Owl, after 3 years of investigation, did choose us as a supplier and installation partner.
http://www.kibsolar.com

owl · Post by **owl** » Fri 29 Nov 2013 12:21 pm

Col

Kibsolar know more about my system than I do!

Hope it explains some of your questions.

My next 'hobby' plan is free pool heating from my surplus daytime solar power for those chilly Spring/Autumn months. (I'm basically a sissy!) Possibly extending comfy pool time by 2/3/4 months?
One hose pipe from house hot water into pool, using roof HW tank & panels + Immersion heater, 2nd hose pipe from pool back to water tanks. Potentially 2+ tons/day of hot water. 15 tons per week of hot water should warm a pool nicely.
Cost of 2 hose pipes for pool heating,... £15?

Silly idea or not?,.... Kibsolar?

Col · Post by **Col** » Fri 29 Nov 2013 11:01 pm

£15 might be a bit short Owl. It is a good idea to make use of all the energy you produce. You will also need to buy a tank, a pump and switches, immersion heater and the means to divert energy that you are not using elsewhere or not producing (think they have come down in price to approx £300)

kibsolar1999 · Post by **kibsolar1999** » Sat 30 Nov 2013 7:48 am

the first thing which comes in my mind is:
due to the chemicals (chlorine) in your pool water, the existing system will not make it for a long time.
galvanized tank (and collectors) and copper immersion heater in an "open system" are bad enough, with chemicals i will give your immersion heater not a 2 month.
somewhere in the system you need to have "stainless steel", eg a heat exchanger (and a pump(s) and sort of a control).
A dump load management is practical.
But the most important is.... to have a pool cover.
Maybe Steward from solarsolutions can help us here with a nice and reliable calculation of the heat losses of pools which would be equal to the neccessary energy needed to keep the pool @ a certain temperature..
he offers solar collectors for DHW and pools and should know about it.
Say, target temp 24 degrees in november, pool is 10x5 meters, no pool cover.

owl · Post by **owl** » Sat 30 Nov 2013 2:58 pm

Col

My plan for pool heating uses my existing roof tank and imm heater, no need for any further costs apart from hose pipes which will be gravity fed, no need for any pumping or further equipment.

Kibsolar raises good points about chlorine effect on house water systems and immersion heaters, but this has to be viewed in relation to the existing detrimental effects of the hard water in NC.
Many find immersion heaters fail regularly and shower heads/taps/kettles etc suffer limescale to the point of failure.

I'm more than happy to be a 'Guinea Pig' to try my pool heating idea. if it works,.. great!
If it fails,.... maybe I will replace my Immersion heater element with a stainless steel one. At least it may give others a practical 'reference' point for energy savings.

The other benefit in recycling pool water for those on 'Tank' water is that we all know water here is untreated and there are health risks including Legionella. Using chlorine will help eradicate such health problems, especially if you do not use Tank water for drinking purposes.

On a ROI (return on investment) basis, I'm happy to go for it!

Col · Post by **Col** » Sat 30 Nov 2013 9:45 pm

Some thoughts Owl, at first glance I do not think this idea a goer!

As it stands I would make my first investment a solar pool cover. There are calcs out there that give you the heat loss btu per tonne of water loss due to evaporation. My guess would be that that you would be losing more energy down to evaporation than you could put in. A windy period can take several degrees out of a pool! You would also have to be thinking about insulation for the pipework down to the pool.

This system is not going to look pretty if it is going to be done on gravity, due to the poor heat conductive properties of the pipe you are going to need quite a few coils to transfer the heat, with no break in the pipe at all. I assume you would be trying to put these in the ballast/balance tank. You are also going to need quite a few fittings.

There would be, as mentioned , a big issue mixing chlorinated water into your domestic water. That is assuming that your pool is higher than your house for the system to work at all! One major issue would be that if the system did work it would be robbing you of hot water for bathing in the house.

Col · Post by **Col** » Sat 30 Nov 2013 9:45 pm

A much better idea I think would be to have an immersion heater close to the ballast/balance tank, even if it involved fitting a small high recovery tank. You would still need switching gear to stop you using grid electric and possibly a central heating pump to push it through.

owl · Post by **owl** » Sun 01 Dec 2013 1:59 pm

Col

I think you are over engineering and overcosting what is a very cheap basic simple idea.

1 hose pipe from kitchen hot water to pool by gravity/existing pressure from house water pump. Cost: £5.
1 hose pipe from pool to house tanks by gravity. Cost £5.
fittings. £5.
No other costs required.

2+tons of hot water per day into pool from free unused/excess daytime solar power.

I believe many pool owners use Chlorine in water tanks to aid water safety and purity as well as reducing limescale build-up.
As an aside, is 'mains' water 'treated' to be potable? As far as I know, it is not.

Pool covers are fine but only if you maintain pool full/overflow throughout winter months. Most allow pools to run low to 'main drain only' to save on water top-ups for up to 8 months of the year. A low pool level is not suitable for a pool cover as well as the problems if you have roman steps, pool ladder etc, which make fitting a cover unsuitable.
Covers are also renowned for being blown away/damaged in high winds, especially on overflow pools.

Cost effective? Doubtful.

Regarding lack of hot water for bathing etc. How many shower/bath during daytime hours?
If you have free available daytime solar, you only have to put the immersion on for 1/2 hr or so to restore a full tank of hot at no cost.

My idea for free pool heating is obviously only suitable for those on water tanks, not those on Mains water, who would not be able to recycle the colder pool water.

I'll let you know how I get on!

kibsolar1999 · Post by **kibsolar1999** » Sun 01 Dec 2013 3:06 pm

Col,
mainly agree with you, in both reg the pool cover and technical.
Explanation:
Owls water tank is lowest..incl pressure pump (here we have a pump!, not "gravity only") 1,5 meter higher comes the pool level and on roof the "solar collectors" with DHW tank
So, owl wants to push warm water into the pool and the backflow can go into the lower watertank again.
Your upper galvanised DHW tank has.. 200 liters? and 1 kW pump output is say 2 ton per hr?
so, you have to switch on and off your pump (your kitchen tap) every hr on for 5 minutes.
ok, works, but flows has to be controlled, otherwise owls lower watertank is either empty soon, his pool flows over or his pool is empty.

Also, and this is the "final and ultimative technical death" of your system, Owl:
the pool water is directly connected to your, in chlorine covered, immersion heater! never mind its "stainless or not". there is no "separation", a heat exchanger, involved,
When something goes wrong, you will not even realise (any more).

Col · Post by **Col** » Tue 03 Dec 2013 9:23 am

So hypothetically.

If I understand this correctly your pool is higher than your domestic tank. you are going to pump water up from the domestic system to the pool and then let the pool water back via gravity to the tank.

A few issues I think, particularly without any other fittings. Time is one, not sure how you would make the connection from the hose to the pool but using gravity you will not get 2 ton to pass through a pipe in the day. Over an 8 hour period you would need more than 4 liters a min. Your time, you are going to have to be on hand to disconnect the pool hose and switch the hot water on and off.

How would you make the connection to the pool Owl?

owl · Post by **owl** » Tue 03 Dec 2013 3:23 pm

Col & Kibsolar

Great advice, many thanks!
I have now decided to go to:

PLAN B:
Stick to 'tankered' water to fill house tanks, then revert to heating pool from house H/W system.
Any water loss by house use or pool use/evaporation will be the same. No additional cost implications. Just have the deliveries of 'new' water to house tanks.

As the house system is already pumped from tanks, I have good tap pressure, so 2 tons may not take much time. Being retired, I have plenty of time to 'play' for an hour or so a day to heat the pool.

We all need our hobbies! If it gives me a few more months warm pool, I'll be a happy boy

Col · Post by **Col** » Tue 03 Dec 2013 3:53 pm

Thought of another couple of issues Owl.

Where ever the water is going to end up out of the pool there needs to be room for it. So if it was your domestic tank this would get very complicated as the hot water you take out would be replaced by normal means so you would also have to be switching the mains water on and off as well. The other issue is potentially adding large amounts of mains water will not be good for the balance of chemicals and state of pool.

Col · Post by **Col** » Tue 03 Dec 2013 4:19 pm

http://www.ehow.com/how_8028611_calcula ... water.html

Using the above calculation it would take 140kwh to raise a 60 ton pool from 25 to 27 degrees. That is not allowing for any heat loss out of your hose pipe but if you did it in black and it was sunny you could even gain a bit. Using a 3kw immersion for about 4 hours a day it is going to take you 11 days. Problem is heat loss out of your pool with out a cover, were you to get an even slightly windy period and my guess is you would lose 2 degrees in 2-5 days depending how sheltered you are. With out wind I am not sure of heat loss due to evaporation.

Would your system cope with taking 12kwh out a day? You could take more but how much is your system over engineered?

What about water heating panels as well or instead?

owl · Post by **owl** » Tue 03 Dec 2013 4:43 pm

Col

On 'water tanks' your water pump (automatic) is on, giving pressure, 24/7. We find we have to have water deliveries every 7-10 days, some into house tanks, some into pool.

Re pool chemicals, from April to October pools have to be frequently topped up. I have my own pool tester and find that a pool of 80? tons shows minimal change of Ph & Chlorine after 3/4 tons of 'top-up' per week in the hot months.
Pool Maintenance firms, as mine do, should check the chemical balance twice a week in summer, once a week in winter and adjust chemicals to keep 'balanced'. They include whatever additional chemicals are required within their monthly charge knowing that pools evaporate/leak regularly.
Most pools have leaks and water loss as well as evaporation.

owl · Post by **owl** » Tue 03 Dec 2013 5:21 pm

Col

Pools lose tons per week from evaporation in a Cyprus summer.
When we have deliveries of 'cold' deep well water delivered, even 3 tons in an 80 ton pool can reduce temp by 2-3C in a day.
There is no reason why 2/3 tons of 'hot' water will not have the reverse effect.

Having a 1 ton roof tank + Imm heater provides easily enough hot water during daytime to give 2+ tons within 1 or2 hrs. Then 'hosing' that HW into pool will require less than 20 minutes with minimal heat loss as average outside temps from Apr to Nov are generally 20c+. In my case this will be with only 20ft of hose pipe from a 'hot' tap under reasonable pressure, i,e, minimal heat loss.
As the Imm heater 'hot' is being provided from surplus daytime solar energy, there is no cost implication. The roof H/W tank will provide warm/hot water continuously in daytime sunshine, also at no additional cost.

Pool covers are a practical and technical no-no!

Test trials begin in April, and as Kibsolar knows, I will be keeping a detailed log!

Col · Post by **Col** » Tue 03 Dec 2013 6:17 pm

"Pools lose tons per week from evaporation in a Cyprus summer.
When we have deliveries of 'cold' deep well water delivered, even 3 tons in an 80 ton pool can reduce temp by 2-3C in a day.
There is no reason why 2/3 tons of 'hot' water will not have the reverse effect.

What temperature are you calling hot Owl? Not done the calcs but you cannot heat 2 tons of water to hot in 2 hours. If we think about a large immersion heater tank being 249l then put the immersion on for 15mins, give it all a mix and that will be the temperature of 2 tons in 2 hours.

i think the link with the calcs should be about right. It should/would take 140kwh to raise the temp 2 degrees.

Col · Post by **Col** » Tue 03 Dec 2013 7:07 pm

Good luck with the trials, long term you are going to need a more manageable option. A sealed tank with immersion heater fitted up to 6m below the pool. Black hose in and out below the water line, black hose in and out to pool. A 6m head central heating pump fitted to circulate. System must be a sealed system to work. Immersion on a timer to maximise electric as it is produced before it is stored with overlap according to your capacity. Pump on a timer to suit. This will then run itself without you having to remember to do anything.

I use the same principle but 150m of black hose instead of an immersion heater.

Good luck with the trials.

kibsolar1999 · Post by **kibsolar1999** » Wed 04 Dec 2013 9:03 am

Owl, listen to that what col and I say..
From beginning of october till, say beginning of december, the pool temp drops from say 28 to now.. 17.
these are 11 degrees, x approx 70kwh for each degree.. = approx 800kWh (= 1,4 degree per week and 0,2 per day).
= 14kWh losses per day.
you can run your 2kW immersion heater all day round and empty it every hr for 5 minutes into your pool. ok.
energy input net approx 14kWh. fine. maybe a bit more..but also note, that the losses are bigger when the pool temp is higher.. and the mentioned evaporation cooling losses may rocket eg, during night , when pool temp is 25 and ambient temp is say 18 or 16...
Then, once a day you go to your lower waterdepot, open the hose valve coming from pool and get two tons into it.
you can control that with a float switch.. but that would be out of your budget . fine.
No sun, you dont run the immersion heater. agreed.
Next day... you need 28 kWh, three four days no or low sun.. you need more and more just to cover the losses during this time.
Result: it will all work.. until a "3 day cold and rainy, windy period comes" and pool temp drops 3 degree..
Meanwhile a 10 tons of rain had been flooding into your pool ... another 60kWh (from 20 to 24 degree).
beginning of december your pool is not 17.. its 20 or 21 degree. fine?
15 years ago electricity was cheap.. and no one did what you try to do owl...
Without pool cover... you are lost.
(and a "uninsulated pool heater" of 6 x 0,8 meter for 199GBP is waisted money... as long you do not install 5 or 6 of them.)

solarsolutionscyprus · Post by **solarsolutionscyprus** » Wed 04 Dec 2013 9:27 am

or try a 6 meter by 80 cm solar swimming pool heater from SOLAR SOLUTIONS CYPRUS , for the full kits its only €200 see my Facebook page for details plus solar swimming pool pump systems in stock and low prices

https://www.facebook.com/SolarSolutionsCyprus

Col · Post by **Col** » Wed 04 Dec 2013 1:58 pm

Had a look for the pool heater and could not see it on the facebook page. have you got a link to it, assume it to be solar heat direct rather than photovoltaic. The price looks good at 200 euro for the kit. Think 3 kits should do the job if 8x4 pool.

edit.

Found it but not quite what I was expecting. What is the construction? Do you have the info on what temperature rise you get in/out and volume of water at that temperature at say 10.00am mid day and 2.00pm

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