How secure is our internet?

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Hector
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How secure is our internet?

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Post by Hector »

I was wondering as to just what my/our internet providers can see when I’m/we’re on the internet. I know they can tell what hardware is connected i.e mobile phone, laptop etc. Also our usage, size of downloads, which VPN we are using. Can our internet provider see what we are actually doing online i.e websites visited? Are our personal passwords secure for example logging on to a bank account?

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Re: How secure is our internet?

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Post by Mowgli597 »

Quick response. Unless you encrypt your data then potentially anyone can see what you’re sending. Even your encrypted connection to your router is no longer considered secure.

A little more info here et seq.

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Re: How secure is our internet?

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Post by Hector »

Thanks for that. I would like to know just what information our internet providers can see of ours whether Nethouse, MM, Extend etc.

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Re: How secure is our internet?

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Post by Keithcaley »

Hector wrote:Thanks for that. I would like to know just what information our internet providers can see of ours whether Nethouse, MM, Extend etc.
Hector, Mowgli597 just explained that anyone - that is ANYONE in the whole World can see what you are doing (if they are interested enough to look, and given the technical know-how) unless you take steps to securely encrypt everything.

That would naturally include your ISP.

I think that what you need to bear in mind is that they are NOT interested - if you think that anyone has the time to monitor the data flow of hundreds or thousands of consumers 24 hours a day, 52 weeks of the year then you're wrong...

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Re: How secure is our internet?

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Post by waddo »

Careful Keith you know the CIA are watching you already!!!
No matter how hard the past, you can always begin again.

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Re: How secure is our internet?

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Post by Keithcaley »

waddo wrote:Careful Keith you know the CIA are watching you already!!!
Ah, but I've put 'em off the scent - I told 'em that my name was Mick....

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Re: How secure is our internet?

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Post by Mowgli597 »

Keithcaley wrote:I think that what you need to bear in mind is that they are NOT interested - if you think that anyone has the time to monitor the data flow of hundreds or thousands of consumers 24 hours a day, 52 weeks of the year then you're wrong...
As Waddo said the CIA do. GCHQ certainly does. And probably every other “intelligence” service in the world if they have the capability.

Hence the proliferation of law allowing countries to monitor traffic and requiring ISPs to retain users’ data.

E.g. in the U.K. the Investigatory Powers Act 2016 controls the interception of traffic on networks. It also creates powers for the police and other investigating authorities to require networks to provide information about their users and their use of networks.

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Re: How secure is our internet?

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Post by jofra »

For a very long time, over many years, - even before the internet - it has been 'reported' that communications have been monitored, and that certain key words would automatically trigger recording of the communication and possible further investigation...
Just consider - you, me, everybody - when we type in a phrase/name/word in Google search (or whatever) - how many results do we get? Refine the search - how many do we still get?
The 'professionals' have the technology; this cannot be and is not denied - so when I say that "my car goes like a bomb", allegedly this post will trigger an alert - but will (hopefully) be quickly discounted.....

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Post by Hector »

Whilst I have no doubt that the security services (Turkish?) monitor our internet use, presumably by some sort of word recognition as they couldn’t possibly ‘listen in’ to everyone, that doesn’t concern me as I’m a law abiding citizen. When I’m out and about i.e at an airport I use a VPN for security. What does concern me is what exactly can my internet provider see as to what I’m doing ? If I log in to my secret numbered Swiss bank account where I keep my millions, can my log in details, passwords etc be seen by my internet provider? Does using a VPN all the time make any difference. I note that there hasn’t been a response from our representatives of our internet providers. Is that significant?

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Re: How secure is our internet?

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Post by Mowgli597 »

Hector wrote:Whilst I have no doubt that the security services (Turkish?) monitor our internet use, presumably by some sort of word recognition as they couldn’t possibly ‘listen in’ to everyone, that doesn’t concern me as I’m a law abiding citizen. When I’m out and about i.e at an airport I use a VPN for security. What does concern me is what exactly can my internet provider see as to what I’m doing ? If I log in to my secret numbered Swiss bank account where I keep my millions, can my log in details, passwords etc be seen by my internet provider? Does using a VPN all the time make any difference. I note that there hasn’t been a response from our representatives of our internet providers. Is that significant?
All a VPN will do is make it harder (though not impossible if like most of us you’re simply an ordinary user and not a hacker/security expert) to trace where you are (and consequently who you are). But even VPNs who say they don’t log users have been shown to be “economical with the truth” at times.

Essentially unless you encrypt your data at the point of transmission ANYONE along the route it will take through the World Wide Web would in theory be able to see it. And the first place it goes through (after your router) is your ISP. You work it out!

And I repeat, THEY can and do listen in to everyone. It’s not that hard. It’s called “big data” when it’s done commercially.

Your comment “that doesn’t concern me as I’m a law abiding citizen” is exactly the argument used by governments to enact enabling laws. If you are “a law abiding citizen” you have nothing to worry about if we intercept your correspondence. After all, what have you got to hide?

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Re: How secure is our internet?

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Post by Hector »

As you say I have nothing to hide from the government. My question, which remains unanswered is just what information can my internet provider (be it MM, Extend or whoever) actually see? Can it see what websites I visit? Can it see what my various passwords are? Can my emails be read?
I’m still concerned that no ISP or informed representative has responded.

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Re: How secure is our internet?

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Post by erol »

Hector wrote:As you say I have nothing to hide from the government. My question, which remains unanswered is just what information can my internet provider (be it MM, Extend or whoever) actually see? Can it see what websites I visit? Can it see what my various passwords are? Can my emails be read?
I’m still concerned that no ISP or informed representative has responded.
This is not a simple question but to try and answer in simplest terms
Hector wrote: Can it see what websites I visit?
Yes
Hector wrote: Can it see what my various passwords are?
No
Hector wrote: Can my emails be read?
Yes

As has been stated these things can be seen at all points your traffic passes through, so that would be your ISP to start with but also will then include all the various links in the chain (so TTnet, then on to someone else and someone else all way through to the destinations ISP and the destination itself. Most stuff travels over the internet like a postcard travels over mail service, in that potentially anyone 'carrying' that piece of mail can read it. Encrypting your data 'seals' it so that people carrying it can see it but in a form that has no meaning unless unencrypted. Passwords would typically be encrypted so would not be readable by anyone carrying that data.

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Re: How secure is our internet?

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Post by Mowgli597 »

Hector wrote:My question, which remains unanswered is just what information can my internet provider (be it MM, Extend or whoever) actually see? Can it see what websites I visit? Can it see what my various passwords are? Can my emails be read?
I’m still concerned that no ISP or informed representative has responded.
Your question WAS answered and very clearly. As Erol has indicated and as I have said anyone can see your information anywhere along your communication channel unless it is encrypted.

Again as I said, and as Erol has confirmed, that includes your ISP who are essentially the first in line (unless you are using a wireless connection and someone is monitoring your traffic - e.g. an open WiFi connection).

As Erol says passwords would be typically encrypted but that only applies to websites which are secured (those whose URL begins with httpS://). You may receive a warning from your browser that a particular website is not secure and that any data you transmit to that site can be read.

And people other than ISPs are just as informed. In fact it would do all internet users good to make sure they ARE informed so that they understand the risks they are taking with personal data. This applies especially to those who are unwise enough to use so-called “social media” or “free” applications such as WhatsApp.

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Re: How secure is our internet?

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Post by Hector »

OMG! So my internet provider, let’s say MM for example, can read all my emails? Likewise can see what websites I visit? I didn’t realise that, nor do remember receiving any warnings from, let’s say MM, about that. You mention encryption. How can I do that and prevent my emails being read by MM? Can let’s say, MM see my files on my computer? What if I’ve attached a file to an email, can that be read?

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Re: How secure is our internet?

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Post by Hector »

OMG! So my internet provider, let’s say MM for example, can read all my emails? Likewise can see what websites I visit? I didn’t realise that, nor do remember receiving any warnings from, let’s say MM, about that. You mention encryption. How can I do that and prevent my emails being read by MM? Can let’s say, MM see my files on my computer? What if I’ve attached a file to an email, can that be read?

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Re: How secure is our internet?

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Post by erol »

Hector wrote:OMG! So my internet provider, let’s say MM for example, can read all my emails? Likewise can see what websites I visit? I didn’t realise that, nor do remember receiving any warnings from, let’s say MM, about that. You mention encryption. How can I do that and prevent my emails being read by MM? Can let’s say, MM see my files on my computer? What if I’ve attached a file to an email, can that be read?
We could read unencrypted emails but in reality we do not. We could see what websites you visit but in reality we do not unless you are having an issue with a specific site. We can not read files on your computer but if you attach an unecnrypted file to an email then yes that is potentially readable.

These things are true whatever ISP you are using , here or in the UK or elsewhere. Like all other ISPs MM does not 'warn' customers about this. We do however reply and interact with customers and potential customers in fora like this, which is pretty unusual for an ISP anywhere to do. Try asking these questions on a UK public forum and see if you get a reply from BT Internet, or Sky or Virgin.

To learn how to use encryption effectively you should educate yourself about it, there are numerous resources on the internet to do this. For actual sw that would encrypt decrypt communications have a look at https://www.openpgp.org/

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Re: How secure is our internet?

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Post by Mowgli597 »

Hector wrote:OMG! So my internet provider, let’s say MM for example, can read all my emails? Likewise can see what websites I visit? I didn’t realise that, nor do remember receiving any warnings from, let’s say MM, about that. You mention encryption. How can I do that and prevent my emails being read by MM? Can let’s say, MM see my files on my computer? What if I’ve attached a file to an email, can that be read?
Is there an agenda here? Why specifically select MM? As Erol (and I) have said ALL ISPs can, and in some countries are required to, log all communications.

Erol has given you a link. More generic information on PGP here.

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Re: How secure is our internet?

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Post by kbasat »

I used to work at MM. I will try to (re)explain the situation

Your information can be stolen in many ways, most dangerous one being malicious software on your computer, such as malware, viruses, keyloggers. For example, they can 'read' your passwords as you type them before it gets encrypted.

for secure websites, vpn connections etc, your computer sets up an end-to-end encryption which make it 'almost' impossible for anyone to break once its leaves your computer, that includes your ISP.

As your ISP we control a portion of the pipeline, therefore we have more than average power over our connection in theory.

In theory, we can check which websites you are visiting, if we record a copy of the packet fragments leaving your computer(s), we can attempt to put those packets back together to see copies of websites you visit or read your emails or any other unencrypted data.

In practice, approximately 1Gigabyte of data passes through our network every second. That is approximately 2 hours of video worth of capacity...EVERY SECOND. It would be both infeasible and very costly for us to try to gain something by going through this information. It is comparable to garbageman checking everybit of your trash in the hope of finding something useful everytime they collect everyones garbage.

What we do keep record of is your online login-logout times (of your device on your roofop) and the total usage you have accumulated during each session. We do not keep any other details.

I dont think other ISPs are behaving much differently.

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Re: How secure is our internet?

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Post by Hector »

May I start by categorically stating that I do not have an 'agenda' here. I am not singling out MM or any ISP in particular, I apologise if I didn't make that clear from the beginning. I am happy with my internet provider. I was only seeking information as to my personal online security having been told by my (helpful when resolving an issue) ISP and being somewhat disconcerted when told over the phone, what VPN I was using, what computers, mobile, iPad I had connected, when I was using the internet and how much downloading I'd done etc. That got me thinking as to just what else could be seen.

Thank you to all those who have shown much patience in attempting to explain to someone (me) who is getting on in years and is not as tech savvy as many obviously are on Kibcom. I'm now reassured that I'm reasonably safe online in NC just as I would be in the UK, providing I personally also take responsibility and use reasonable security precautions as I would in the UK. I have paid for internet security software to prevent malicious software, I check that websites have the 's' at the end. I use a VPN.

I'm still confused as to 'PGP' and encrypting my emails though. I have looked at the links as advised. I use Gmail for example (no, I've no agenda) but that doesn't show up as being able to be encrypted using PGP. Do I really need to be concerned anyway, as has been rightly pointed out, I am but one amongst many millions and the billions of emails being sent every day?

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Re: How secure is our internet?

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Post by Keithcaley »

'PGP' stands for 'Pretty Good Privacy' and is an encryption program/process.

Note the use of the term 'Pretty Good'!! - it indicates that nothing is 100% secure...

Be aware that 'Gmail' can and do 'read' your emails - they use the content to target relevant advertising so that they can then display adverts for products which they think you might be interested in!

You should never, therefore, include any sensitive information in emails sent over a 'Free' system such as Gmail - it's 'Free' for a reason, and that reason is that they have access to your data, which they either use themselves, or sell - of course, they will only sell it to associated companies (so they say), and to those who, in their view, will properly protect that information and not abuse it - Ha Ha Ha!

Facebook just managed to let the personal data of around 50 MILLION users be stolen - that data includes passwords and goodness knows what else...

Don't think that there's safety in numbers, automated software can scan millions of emails per second, looking for anything that looks remotely like a name/address/password/bank account number, etc., etc...

'WhatsApp' was mentioned in a previous post, but actually, it does use end-to-end encryption - the concept is rather diminished for me due to the fact that they are owned by Facebook! In case you're not up-to-speed on this, WhatsApp is a 'Free' telephony service that runs on 'Smartphones' (android and the like) - but do we trust 'Free' services, now that we know how they make their money?

So basically the message is, your data and activity online is about as secure on the internet as it would be if you wrote it all down on a postcard and popped it into a mailbox - or possibly, less secure

...and to answer your question about 'encrypting messages sent via Gmail' - heres a short video on how to do it...


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Re: How secure is our internet?

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Post by Mowgli597 »

Hector wrote:May I start by categorically stating that I do not have an 'agenda' here. I am not singling out MM or any ISP in particular, I apologise if I didn't make that clear from the beginning. I am happy with my internet provider. I was only seeking information as to my personal online security having been told by my (helpful when resolving an issue) ISP and being somewhat disconcerted when told over the phone, what VPN I was using, what computers, mobile, iPad I had connected, when I was using the internet and how much downloading I'd done etc. That got me thinking as to just what else could be seen.
My apology Hector for ‘twas I who asked if there was an agenda. Mea maxima culpa et indulge mihi domine!

As you’ve found out yourself from your experience with your ISP, nothing is sacred on the internet and, as Keith has correctly pointed out, nothing is “free”. Your data (including all of the above which your ISP told you) is what you “pay” for these services. That’s how they keep going, by selling YOUR data.

As regards gmail even I was astonished to find emails which I’d sent when making a holiday booking in 2012 were still there, even though I had deleted it many years ago, or so I thought. No doubt they have emails going back even further.

The postcard analogy which Erol mentioned is an excellent way to think of your traffic on the Internet.

Regarding “WhatsApp”: I looked to load that app on my phone when people were encouraging me to use it to contact them for “free”. During installation it asked if it could access my Contacts. I said no, but it went ahead and indexed them anyway! The app was quickly removed but no doubt they too are now storing my information somewhere.

It’s a jungle out there!

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