Football team taking the knee

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EnjoyingTheSun
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Football team taking the knee

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

I guess this could go in sport or politics but after all the fuss over the weekend what are people's thoughts?

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Re: Football team taking the knee

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Do not think I would even take the knee to royalty unless of course I was knighted. That’s the procedure right. I personally think it’s OTT and it will eventually cause a backlash. They must stop pushing all these new causes down our throats. Why are they trying to fix what’s not broke and has served us for our lifetime.

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Re: Football team taking the knee

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Post by Groucho »

jackvern wrote:
Mon 14 Jun 2021 4:10 pm
Do not think I would even take the knee to royalty unless of course I was knighted. That’s the procedure right. I personally think it’s OTT and it will eventually cause a backlash. They must stop pushing all these new causes down our throats. Why are they trying to fix what’s not broke and has served us for our lifetime.
I take you are happy for the racism rife in football to continue unabated.... unbelievable. ((W\))

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Re: Football team taking the knee

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Groucho wrote:
Mon 14 Jun 2021 4:37 pm

I take you are happy for the racism rife in football to continue unabated.... unbelievable. ((W\))
Racism rife?
It’s not 1971 or 1981 it’s 2021.
You realise that of the 11 that finished the game for England 7 were BAME?
You are going to have to give some examples of this rife racism, certainly in English football.

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Re: Football team taking the knee

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

jackvern wrote:
Mon 14 Jun 2021 4:10 pm
Do not think I would even take the knee to royalty unless of course I was knighted. That’s the procedure right. I personally think it’s OTT and it will eventually cause a backlash. They must stop pushing all these new causes down our throats. Why are they trying to fix what’s not broke and has served us for our lifetime.
My feeling is that the taking of the knee is too associated with or been hijacked by the BLM movement that by all means have a symbolic gesture but choose something else like the Croatian players did.
To say that if you don’t support the BLM means you are racist is akin to saying if you didn’t think Stalin was very nice then you were in favour of Hitler.

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Re: Football team taking the knee

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Post by Groucho »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Mon 14 Jun 2021 4:43 pm
Groucho wrote:
Mon 14 Jun 2021 4:37 pm

I take you are happy for the racism rife in football to continue unabated.... unbelievable. ((W\))
Racism rife?
It’s not 1971 or 1981 it’s 2021.
You realise that of the 11 that finished the game for England 7 were BAME?
You are going to have to give some examples of this rife racism, certainly in English football.
The racism is mostly in the stands. The team selection has not reflected racism and taking the knee is not arguing that it does. It's about thugs and trolls, which appear to be OK with some, but not the England team - which is their point.

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Re: Football team taking the knee

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

Groucho wrote:
Mon 14 Jun 2021 5:37 pm

The racism is mostly in the stands. The team selection has not reflected racism and taking the knee is not arguing that it does. It's about thugs and trolls, which appear to be OK with some, but not the England team - which is their point.
Again it’s not 1971 or 1981.
The racism in the stands is minuscule.
The days of thousands of fans racially abusing the players is gone. Of course you will have the odd bigot but what won’t happen now is others joining in and other supporters will point it out and the bigot/s will be removed.
At its peak it was a few bigots and other idiots joining in to put off the other team’s player. Now every team has 3 black players plus so even the knuckle heads can see how counter productive the racist chanting would be.
Abd the reason it stopped is down to the black players succeeding and zero to do with the kick it out campaign and others.
When racism was at its peak in English football the FA and the clubs did zero. The TV companies would mute the monkey chants as a rule.
So there was a huge problem which when it was a problem was pretty much ignored and when it was sorted the virtue signallers jumped in and bayoneted the wounded.

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Re: Football team taking the knee

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Post by Groucho »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Mon 14 Jun 2021 5:56 pm
Groucho wrote:
Mon 14 Jun 2021 5:37 pm

The racism is mostly in the stands. The team selection has not reflected racism and taking the knee is not arguing that it does. It's about thugs and trolls, which appear to be OK with some, but not the England team - which is their point.
Again it’s not 1971 or 1981.
The racism in the stands is minuscule.
The days of thousands of fans racially abusing the players is gone. Of course you will have the odd bigot but what won’t happen now is others joining in and other supporters will point it out and the bigot/s will be removed.
At its peak it was a few bigots and other idiots joining in to put off the other team’s player. Now every team has 3 black players plus so even the knuckle heads can see how counter productive the racist chanting would be.
Abd the reason it stopped is down to the black players succeeding and zero to do with the kick it out campaign and others.
When racism was at its peak in English football the FA and the clubs did zero. The TV companies would mute the monkey chants as a rule.
So there was a huge problem which when it was a problem was pretty much ignored and when it was sorted the virtue signallers jumped in and bayoneted the wounded.
So again, you don't think the vile racist trolling on social media is not worth making a gesture about... I'm sure you'd love to characterise it as something and nothing but then, you are not on the receiving end, all the coloured players are abused on a regular basis for their non-white skin colour... it is a matter of accepted fact.

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Re: Football team taking the knee

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Post by CPFC »

Groucho - as a season ticket holder for many years I can honestly say I have never heard any racist comments/abuse in the ground or before or after a game - I am not saying that it never happens but in my opinion and experience I do not think that it is widespread.

The problem seems to be from a small minority on social media...

Also Groucho using the term “coloured” is not acceptable nowadays.

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Re: Football team taking the knee

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

Groucho wrote:
Mon 14 Jun 2021 7:03 pm

So again, you don't think the vile racist trolling on social media is not worth making a gesture about... I'm sure you'd love to characterise it as something and nothing but then, you are not on the receiving end, all the coloured players are abused on a regular basis for their non-white skin colour... it is a matter of accepted fact.
One racist is one racist too many but to say it is rife is a gross exaggeration.

Also now it is social media but
Groucho wrote:
Mon 14 Jun 2021 5:37 pm

The racism is mostly in the stands.
So which is it? Or you don’t know but are just fumbling around looking for bigots?

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Re: Football team taking the knee

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CPFC wrote:
Mon 14 Jun 2021 7:31 pm

as a season ticket holder for many years I can honestly say I have never heard any racist comments/abuse in the ground or before or after a game
Im assuming you’re a Palace supporter?
I’m a Spurs fan but lived just up the road from Selhurst Park so was quite a regular there for a while and can support what you say and would say the Palace fans are superb in the way they get behind their team

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Re: Football team taking the knee

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I am a Palace fan - it has been a hard watch these past few years! :+1:)

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Re: Football team taking the knee

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CPFC wrote:
Mon 14 Jun 2021 8:57 pm
I am a Palace fan - it has been a hard watch these past few years! :+1:)
I watched them quite regularly for about 3 seasons from 2012. Not the prettiest football I’ve ever seen but always a great atmosphere. The team in the late 70s was a good watch though.
Back on the subject they always had a tradition of playing black players when there were only a handful in the league.
Millwall had a diabolical reputation re racism but the supporters player of the year has been black 5 out of the last 10 years so that reputation is behind them no matter what some would say.

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Re: Football team taking the knee

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Post by Groucho »

How very cosy for you ETS, There's none so blind as those who will not see... Just check online and you will find that ALL players of colour are subjected to racist abuse every day.. it's not a subject to be made light of by reminisces about the the team's you follow. It's a real problem and one I find your lack of acknowledgement a slap in the face for some of our greatest players. Shame in you...

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Re: Football team taking the knee

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Groucho wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 11:15 am
How very cosy for you ETS, There's none so blind as those who will not see... Just check online and you will find that ALL players of colour are subjected to racist abuse every day.. it's not a subject to be made light of by reminisces about the the team's you follow. It's a real problem and one I find your lack of acknowledgement a slap in the face for some of our greatest players. Shame in you...
I doubt you've ever been to a football match or could name someof our greatest players but let's educate you by looking at racism and football.

There have been black players in British football since the game was professionalised in the late 1870s. Not many but then pre Windrush there wasn’t that many black people in Britain.

By the time I started following the game in the early 1970s there were probably a handful of black professional players, the most well-known of them at the time was Clyde Best.
Now Clyde got a lot of abuse and the bulk of it was based on the colour of his skin. Billy Bremner another great player of the era got just as much abuse but his was based on the colour of his hair. Gingerism I guess you’d call it. The main reason for the abuse was they were good players and the opposition supporters were trying to put them off their game.
I have no doubt that some of the abuse directed at Clyde was from bigots but I would say the bulk of it was by the opposition supporters trying to put off one of the other team’s players. It was a simple and simple minded as that. Clyde himself points out the example of his West Ham team mate Bobby Moore. ‘Bobby took abuse wherever he went, not because of the colour of his skin but because of how good he was. From him I learned that it doesn't make sense hiding, you have a job to do.’

I remember Garth Crooks playing for Stoke against Tottenham and getting racially abused by the Tottenham supporters. It didn’t really work as he played superbly and scored. Within 18 months Tottenham signed him and the same supporters who had racially abused him, adored him.

In the early 1980s, despite every indication to the contrary, the Commission for Racial Equality and the FA agreed that the problem of racism in football was too small to be worried about. So I do take the FA’s new concern with a large pinch of salt.

As for opportunities for black players the game in England is very insular and for years there was the view that black players lacked guts or would go missing when it was cold or muddy. All generalisations and total nonsense. Similar to the nonsense generalisation that getting ID for voting will somehow be more difficult for BAME people.

So from the early 70s the handful of black players ploughed a lonely furrow and thrived to where we are today where black people make up about 3% of the UK population but over 25% of our professional footballers. An over achievement by any standards and an achievement they have made on their own. By the time the FA and others decided to virtue signal a concern the problem was minimal.
In other sports such as American football and basketball black people dominate. Football is a results business, if you are good you will be picked, if you aren’t, you won’t. You can’t socially engineer it and the black people don’t need you to because they are great footballers.
Also it is a different time. Peer pressure won’t allow casual racism disguised as banter any more. Yes the players may be abused on social media because you can be an anonymous bigot or hater on social media but you can’t be openly racist on the terraces because fellow supporters won’t stand for it.

So don’t tell me English football is rife with racism because it isn’t. When it had its problems with racism the government, the FA, the broadcasters and the SJWs had little to no interest so please save me from the faux outrage.

Maybe a lot of the booing of taking the knee is supporters frustration that they have put their own house in order and now the woke mob have come late and ill-informed to the battle when it is pretty much over to bayonet the wounded and play the white saviour.

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Re: Football team taking the knee

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Post by PoshinDevon »

Racism in football was rife in the 70s and 80s. Whilst the selection of black football players into U.K. national teams especially in the 90s and onwards seemed to lessen the disgusting chants there was always an underlying trend to abuse them. However; I do believe in more recent years in the U.K. racism in U.K. football has been rightly marginalised. The “Kick it Out” campaign has really helped to highlight the issue. It ensured that racist abuse is not tolerated and fans were encouraged to report incidents. Of course eastern bloc countries sadly still seem to have an issue with black footballers. I attend games regularly and cannot remember the last time I heard any racist chants or comments.

As far as “ taking the knee” is concerned unfortunately despite repeated denials it is seen as linked to the BLM movement which in turn is seen to be a radical organisation. The majority of people in the U.K. are rightly against radicalism and for fans they are also against bringing politics into sport. Fans pay large amounts of money to watch their club or national team, they just want footballers to play football. As I have read elsewhere if they wanted a political message from someone who chases a ball, they would ask their dog! (8))

I think “taking the knee” has run it’s course and a lot of football fans do not want politics creeping into the game. We have a minutes silence for armistice day, plus also when a major tragedy or incident occurs, but I would question “taking the knee” as almost obligatory and repeated far to often. There are already a good number of black players who refuse to make this gesture, for good reason. There are also a number of countries and clubs in all sports who do not make the gesture. Scotland did not make the gesture prior to there game, but seemingly will when they play England. The message is being naturally diluted and is confused. Therefore why persevere with it?

Instead of the FA trying to push a message which is clearly not being accepted, the challenge is to find a better way of promoting the message. Saying those booing are racist or are somehow less intelligent certainly does not help.

Also to me there is some double standards when for example footballers will attend the World Cup in Qatar, a country which has a questionable record with regards to human rights. For example:-

1. The death penalty for homosexuality.
2. 100 lashes for adultery.
3. Illegal to import religious books, for fear of a prison sentence.

In addition over 5,000 migrant workers mainly from the Indian sub continent and Far East have been killed or injured in building the stadium and infrastructure. Do their lives not matter? Are our knee taking players going to boycott playing in a country like this or make a gesture? No way.
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Re: Football team taking the knee

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

Good post Posh I agree with most of your points.
PoshinDevon wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 12:56 pm

Whilst the selection of black football players into U.K. national teams especially in the 90s and onwards seemed to lessen the disgusting chants there was always an underlying trend to abuse them.
Tbh I think the biggest cause of ending the chants was by the mid 90s pretty every club had at least one black player. Even the most bigoted numbskull would realise racist chanting would be counter productive as it would upset your own players. As for the underlying trend to abuse international players I assume you are referring to some of the abuse that John Barnes received. Whilst I’m sure a minority might have been bigots I think a lot was that Barnes often under performed for England and was seen, unfairly, to not be trying at times. Paul Ince and Des Walker who played much the same era didn’t get any abuse to my knowledge. The white Martin Chivers in an earlier era got a dogs abuse for perceived lack of effort.
PoshinDevon wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 12:56 pm

The “Kick it Out” campaign has really helped to highlight the issue.
Tbh I think by the time the kick it out campaign started in the mid 90s the problem had all but disappeared as all the clubs had black players and for the reasons I highlighted above. In the early 80s when such a campaign could have helped the FA and others ignored the problem. I’ve been at games where there were monkey chants but when watching the highlights later the broadcasters had shamefully edited them out.
PoshinDevon wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 12:56 pm

.There are already a good number of black players who refuse to make this gesture, for good reason.
It would be a very brave white player who didn’t take the knee though?

PoshinDevon wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 12:56 pm

Also to me there is some double standards when for example footballers will attend the World Cup in Qatar, a country which has a questionable record with regards to human rights.
And have boot deals with companies who exploit black workers in Haiti

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Re: Football team taking the knee

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Whether racism is rife or only marginal in football is open to interpretation but in my opinion taking the knee is disgraceful. This is an act as closely associated with the Marxist BLM movement as the raising of a straight arm was associated with the Nazis and other fascist organisations so it is a political gesture. BLM is a Marxist antiestablishment movement that is out to destroy western civilisation and destroy the police force. As for racism, we have a black shadow minister who a few years ago said that all white people are racist and recently tried to stir up trouble by accusing white people of trying to kill the woman leader of BLM. This is someone who at the last election but one was only a few thousand votes from being a cabinet minister.
When the career criminal Floyd was killed over 4000 miles away the BLM mob used it as an excuse to cause trouble in the Uk. Since then there have been over a dozen blacks killed by blacks, but in those instances black lives don’t appear to matter, they only matter when killed by white people. This in itself is racist and I believe that the BLM mob are making race relations worse, which is of course one of their objectives.
As Posh has said there are black players who have decided not to take the knee but I doubt that many white ones will for fear of being cancelled.

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Re: Football team taking the knee

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The interesting thing is football is by no means perfect but the problems there are in the game are ignored by the SJWs. Maybe they wish to jump onto the victories that have been already won and take undeserved credit. As I said earlier the black players themselves have won these victories.

There are very few Asian players in the game even though the younger Asian population love the game and are well represented in grass roots football. Maybe they are seen to be smaller so I think they are are victim of the view that you have to be an athletic 6 footer to play football. Although Lionel Messi, Maradona or Zola might argue the point. It’s a bit like the old stereo type that black players don’t like to be tackled or playing in the winter?

We have grounds in very multi cultural areas where there can be more black people on the pitch than in the crowd. That might be a throw back to the racist chanting of the 60s to 80s.

We have been criticised for not having enough black managers although I think that will end as soon as a couple of black managers achieve success. Gullit and John Barnes both got high profile opportunities but weren’t very successful. Football is a results business, get results and there is a herd instinct like we have seen with foreign managers.

It would be very difficult for a gay footballer to be openly gay and play the game. It will change in time it just needs a couple of brave pioneers like Clyde Best. Interestingly the SJWs ignore this and concentrate their fire on the minuscule occasions where a 6’4 trans woman is criticised for not getting a ‘fair’ chance against a biological woman.

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Re: Football team taking the knee

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Brazen wrote:
Tue 15 Jun 2021 1:29 pm

This is an act as closely associated with the Marxist BLM movement as the raising of a straight arm was associated with the Nazis and other fascist organisations so it is a political gesture. BLM is a Marxist antiestablishment movement
Racism is far too important to allow it to be hijacked and gamed by the Marxists.

The Berlin Wall was known as The Anti Fascist Wall in East Germany and the rest of the Eastern block.

I can only assume that if we use the same tortured logic that to be against taking the knee is to be against fighting racism means if you were against The Berlin Wall you were in favour of fascism.

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Re: Football team taking the knee

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Groucho #14

I hope you are able to understand that the reference to the team supported was to say that as someone who regularly goes to matches and has done for many many years I have not seen or heard any racist comments - this was to give some context to your claims that it was rife in stadiums.

Have you actually been to a match and if so have you heard any racist comments?

Social Media is where the the problem lies and this does need to be addressed by the big tech companies.

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Re: Football team taking the knee

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CPFC wrote:
Wed 16 Jun 2021 6:25 am
Groucho #14

I hope you are able to understand that the reference to the team supported was to say that as someone who regularly goes to matches and has done for many many years I have not seen or heard any racist comments - this was to give some context to your claims that it was rife in stadiums.

Have you actually been to a match and if so have you heard any racist comments?

Social Media is where the the problem lies and this does need to be addressed by the big tech companies.
Yes, yes and yes - the advent of crowd observation and control cameras have moved most but not all racist abuse to the largely unchecked realm of cowardly anonymous online abuse...

Some eastern bloc countries players however still find themselves unable to hide or control their racism... only this week a player was caught shouting abuse about "f**king your {nationality} mother"... just Google 'racist abuse at Euros' and how current the problem is.

http://www.insideworldfootball.com/2021 ... se-kamara/

ETS... state why that's OK but taking a decision to call it out is not...

It's got nothing to do with militant Marxism and such ridiculous attempts to muddy the waters is beneath contempt in my opinion.

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Re: Football team taking the knee

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Groucho wrote:
Wed 16 Jun 2021 7:21 am

Some eastern bloc countries players however still find themselves unable to hide or control their racism... only this week a player was caught shouting abuse about "f**king your {nationality} mother"... just Google 'racist abuse at Euros' and how current the problem is.

http://www.insideworldfootball.com/2021 ... se-kamara/

ETS... state why that's OK but taking a decision to call it out is not...

It's got nothing to do with militant Marxism and such ridiculous attempts to muddy the waters is beneath contempt in my opinion.
So it's not rife on English terraces it's on the social media?
So it's not rife in English football, the problem is in Eastern Europe?
I wouldn't argue about there being a problem in Eastern Europe our black players have often been racially abused out there which has been condemned by their fellow players, the media and the supporters.

Just be honest and say you have no idea what you are talking about.
I made a post about there are too few Asians in football etc but you didn't comment on that because you don't have your little Guardian toolkit to make a comment about it because they haven't noticed it. Like in the 70s when there was a problem they ignored it. Now the problem has all but gone in come the left.

Loving the faux outrage by the way.

Groucho wrote:
Wed 16 Jun 2021 7:21 am

Yes, yes and yes - the advent of crowd observation and control cameras have moved most but not all racist abuse to the largely unchecked realm of cowardly anonymous online abuse...
Like you was going to be honest and say no I have never been to a football match in my life.
This is the pity of social media, I would love to be having this conversation in a bar and ask what ground you went to, what stand did you sit or stand in what players were playing and without the help of google make it very obvious you are talking total bull.

So basically without the many cameras all the supporters would still be doing monkey chants? White people in Britain haven't moved on they are still inherently racist?

There is abuse on social media and I have no doubt that some is racist. It is not comfortable in Britain to be a bigot anymore so I guess they have to vent their spleen somewhere.

Also all footballers receive abuse on twitter is all the abuse to black players racist or is it just easy to label it such?

Claudia Webb's default action is to call any criticism of her or probing questions racist attacks. She called a BAME man racist for questioning how she could be a councillor in Islington at the same time as she was an MP in Leicester.

I was disappointed that you didn't bring this incident up as I know about this one;

https://www.espn.com/soccer/chelsea/sto ... sm-has-won

After the game I spoke to a few friends who are season ticket holders in the stand where Rudiger alleged the abuse came from.
They said yes he got a lot of abuse because he was kicking every Tottenham player and generally cheating through the game but there was no racial abuse and no monkey chants and they would have seen them and heard them because of where they were. They assumed he said it was racial to get some sympathy from the referee. Tottenham did a thorough investigation and with all their CCTV and Sky TV having god knows how many cameras there they found zero proof. Why? Because he made it up. He knew people like you would clutch their pearls and want to give him a hug for kicking people.
It happens, people do play the race card. Why wouldn't they, people like you are salivating waiting to hear proof Britain is full of racists?
We never had this majority vote for the NF or BNP in any numbers in a ballot that is anonymous but obviously 17.4 million turned racist overnight to vote leave.

I wont play the outrage card even though what you are doing by supporting this nonsense is actually setting race relations back 40 years because you don't really know what you are doing. You are being manipulated into your views because you don't have the logical skills/critical thinking to know it is bull. EG where were all these racists when it was election time. If English football is so racist why do 3% of the population make up 25% of the very well paid workforce?

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Re: Football team taking the knee

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

Groucho wrote:
Wed 16 Jun 2021 7:21 am
CPFC wrote:
Wed 16 Jun 2021 6:25 am
Groucho #14

I hope you are able to understand that the reference to the team supported was to say that as someone who regularly goes to matches and has done for many many years I have not seen or heard any racist comments - this was to give some context to your claims that it was rife in stadiums.

Have you actually been to a match and if so have you heard any racist comments?

Social Media is where the the problem lies and this does need to be addressed by the big tech companies.
Yes, yes and yes
BF56739D-5EF4-482E-B9B4-CFB9D19A3237.jpeg
CPFC, he was never going to say no was he?
Online and with the help of google he will probably be able to bluff it.
You and I will know which team’s supporters were the worst for racially abusing players whereas he will say Millwall and struggle after that. Maybe throw in Chelsea after a bit of googling

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Re: Football team taking the knee

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EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Wed 16 Jun 2021 10:43 am
Groucho wrote:
Wed 16 Jun 2021 7:21 am

Some eastern bloc countries players however still find themselves unable to hide or control their racism... only this week a player was caught shouting abuse about "f**king your {nationality} mother"... just Google 'racist abuse at Euros' and how current the problem is.

http://www.insideworldfootball.com/2021 ... se-kamara/

ETS... state why that's OK but taking a decision to call it out is not...

It's got nothing to do with militant Marxism and such ridiculous attempts to muddy the waters is beneath contempt in my opinion.
So it's not rife on English terraces it's on the social media?
So it's not rife in English football, the problem is in Eastern Europe?
I wouldn't argue about there being a problem in Eastern Europe our black players have often been racially abused out there which has been condemned by their fellow players, the media and the supporters.

Just be honest and say you have no idea what you are talking about.
I made a post about there are too few Asians in football etc but you didn't comment on that because you don't have your little Guardian toolkit to make a comment about it because they haven't noticed it. Like in the 70s when there was a problem they ignored it. Now the problem has all but gone in come the left.

Loving the faux outrage by the way.

Groucho wrote:
Wed 16 Jun 2021 7:21 am

Yes, yes and yes - the advent of crowd observation and control cameras have moved most but not all racist abuse to the largely unchecked realm of cowardly anonymous online abuse...
Like you was going to be honest and say no I have never been to a football match in my life.
This is the pity of social media, I would love to be having this conversation in a bar and ask what ground you went to, what stand did you sit or stand in what players were playing and without the help of google make it very obvious you are talking total bull.

So basically without the many cameras all the supporters would still be doing monkey chants? White people in Britain haven't moved on they are still inherently racist?

There is abuse on social media and I have no doubt that some is racist. It is not comfortable in Britain to be a bigot anymore so I guess they have to vent their spleen somewhere.

Also all footballers receive abuse on twitter is all the abuse to black players racist or is it just easy to label it such?

Claudia Webb's default action is to call any criticism of her or probing questions racist attacks. She called a BAME man racist for questioning how she could be a councillor in Islington at the same time as she was an MP in Leicester.

I was disappointed that you didn't bring this incident up as I know about this one;

https://www.espn.com/soccer/chelsea/sto ... sm-has-won

After the game I spoke to a few friends who are season ticket holders in the stand where Rudiger alleged the abuse came from.
They said yes he got a lot of abuse because he was kicking every Tottenham player and generally cheating through the game but there was no racial abuse and no monkey chants and they would have seen them and heard them because of where they were. They assumed he said it was racial to get some sympathy from the referee. Tottenham did a thorough investigation and with all their CCTV and Sky TV having god knows how many cameras there they found zero proof. Why? Because he made it up. He knew people like you would clutch their pearls and want to give him a hug for kicking people.
It happens, people do play the race card. Why wouldn't they, people like you are salivating waiting to hear proof Britain is full of racists?
We never had this majority vote for the NF or BNP in any numbers in a ballot that is anonymous but obviously 17.4 million turned racist overnight to vote leave.

I wont play the outrage card even though what you are doing by supporting this nonsense is actually setting race relations back 40 years because you don't really know what you are doing. You are being manipulated into your views because you don't have the logical skills/critical thinking to know it is bull. EG where were all these racists when it was election time. If English football is so racist why do 3% of the population make up 25% of the very well paid workforce?
So now we see your true colours, if you can't refute the argument, attack attack - just like a hooligan. I have watched many many football games, been a season ticket holder and been ashamed of my fellow man (an epithet I don't use for you). The fact that you don't understand why our international players are using the international stage to make a stand against racism says more about you than it does them.... think on it, if you are capable that is - I have my doubts. I regard you in the worst possible light and see no point in further discussion as you are being wilfully blind in effort to deny or defend the indefensible. Away with you, jog on to another topic you air your troll characteristics,

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Re: Football team taking the knee

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duplicate
Last edited by EnjoyingTheSun on Wed 16 Jun 2021 2:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Football team taking the knee

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EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Wed 16 Jun 2021 12:40 pm
Groucho wrote:
Wed 16 Jun 2021 11:22 am

So now we see your true colours, if you can't refute the argument, attack attack - just like a hooligan.
I've refuted your argument in some depth even though your argument changes when it blows up in your face. Its on the terraces, it's on social media, it's in Eastern Europe.

Groucho wrote:
Wed 16 Jun 2021 11:22 am
I have watched many many football games, been a season ticket holder and been ashamed of my fellow man (an epithet I don't use for you).
Of course you have lol. If you had watched much football for many years you would know to compare the terraces now with the 70s and 80s is laughable and shows a total ignorance of the facts.
Groucho wrote:
Wed 16 Jun 2021 11:22 am

The fact that you don't understand why our international players are using the international stage to make a stand against racism says more about you than it does them.... think on it, if you are capable that is - I have my doubts. I regard you in the worst possible light and see no point in further discussion as you are being wilfully blind in effort to deny or defend the indefensible. Away with you, jog on to another topic you air your troll characteristics,
They do it EVERY....SINGLE....GAME. If it had any symbolism it has long finished.
Did you know what the Croatia players did when England took the knee?
Google it as I know you probably didn't even watch the game.
It's not making a gesture against racism it's about not showing support for the BLM organisation. As I said before if you are anti fascist does that mean you have to support The Berlin Wall?
Look throw a few insults out and run off to a safe space I get used to the tactic, you've embarrassed yourself with your virtue signaling nonsense.
You have shown your complete lack of knowledge about football and the history of racism within football and shown no appreciation for the debt that current black players owe to the likes of Clyde Best who faced disgusting abuse with zero support from the authorities and the likes of yourself.
A lot of clubs have made enormous efforts to stamp racism out and yes the game still has hurdles to overcome such as the ones I pointed out. You didn't point them out because you had no idea they existed did you?
But hey you jump in with others and try and solve a problem that barely exists anymore on our terraces.
Anyhow I expect you have another battle to fight such as getting women in the UK the vote.

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Re: Football team taking the knee

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EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Wed 16 Jun 2021 12:43 pm
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Wed 16 Jun 2021 12:40 pm
Groucho wrote:
Wed 16 Jun 2021 11:22 am

So now we see your true colours, if you can't refute the argument, attack attack - just like a hooligan.
I've refuted your argument in some depth even though your argument changes when it blows up in your face. Its on the terraces, it's on social media, it's in Eastern Europe.

Groucho wrote:
Wed 16 Jun 2021 11:22 am
I have watched many many football games, been a season ticket holder and been ashamed of my fellow man (an epithet I don't use for you).
Of course you have lol. If you had watched much football for many years you would know to compare the terraces now with the 70s and 80s is laughable and shows a total ignorance of the facts.
Groucho wrote:
Wed 16 Jun 2021 11:22 am

The fact that you don't understand why our international players are using the international stage to make a stand against racism says more about you than it does them.... think on it, if you are capable that is - I have my doubts. I regard you in the worst possible light and see no point in further discussion as you are being wilfully blind in effort to deny or defend the indefensible. Away with you, jog on to another topic you air your troll characteristics,
They do it EVERY....SINGLE....GAME. If it had any symbolism it has long finished.
Did you know what the Croatia players did when England took the knee?
Google it as I know you probably didn't even watch the game.
It's not making a gesture against racism it's about not showing support for the BLM organisation. As I said before if you are anti fascist does that mean you have to support The Berlin Wall?
Look throw a few insults out and run off to a safe space I get used to the tactic, you've embarrassed yourself with your virtue signaling nonsense.
You have shown your complete lack of knowledge about football and the history of racism within football and shown no appreciation for the debt that current black players owe to the likes of Clyde Best who faced disgusting abuse with zero support from the authorities and the likes of yourself.
A lot of clubs have made enormous efforts to stamp racism out and yes the game still has hurdles to overcome such as the ones I pointed out. You didn't point them out because you had no idea they existed did you?
But hey you jump in with others and try and solve a problem that barely exists anymore on our terraces.
Anyhow I expect you have another battle to fight such as getting women in the UK the vote.
I did watch the Croatia game, I also used to watch games at Upton Park and was ashamed of the banana throwing so called fans, in later years the BNP held recruitment drives outside the ground. I must say I'm fascinated by how much you presume to know about my activities... you must a shaman. I do not take back my remark about the stands because I am convinced a lot of the online abuse comes once the cowards have left the grounds and can hide their identity to vent their vitriol. Notice I've never accused you of not attending games, only of being very conveniently myopic. To not understand how awful an incessant stream of racist abuse could be makes me doubt your veracity in this discussion.

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Re: Football team taking the knee

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Groucho wrote:
Wed 16 Jun 2021 2:00 pm
I also used to watch games at Upton Park and was ashamed of the banana throwing so called fans, in later years the BNP held recruitment drives outside the ground. I must say I'm fascinated by how much you presume to know about my activities... you must a shaman. I do not take back my remark about the stands because I am convinced a lot of the online abuse comes once the cowards have left the grounds and can hide their identity to vent their vitriol. Notice I've never accused you of not attending games, only of being very conveniently myopic. To not understand how awful an incessant stream of racist abuse could be makes me doubt your veracity in this discussion.
Err no it was the NF who used to try and recruit outside the ground actually.
As a lifelong Hammer you’ll know who used to run the ICF if you know who the ICF were of course. Trust me no one would’ve thrown a banana near him.

It’s funny because a simple search on here shows that you have never mentioned West Ham once, even in any of the threads about football.
When I mentioned Clyde Best you never picked up on it even though he was a West Ham player.

Just be honest, you had a quick google and settled on West Ham because they were linked with racism a bit in the 70s.
Couldn’t go Millwall as it was too obvious.
Chelsea would have been a decent call as they used to boo their own black players.
Everton would’ve been a very good call as only those who know football would know they had a bad reputation within the game.
You would have never said Liverpool because they had John Barnes of course, even though the Liverpool supporters threw bananas at him about 18 months before they signed him.
But then you wouldn’t know that would you?
That’s the problem with google, sometimes you need to know what you are looking for.


I didn’t want to bring it up but only one of us has shown themselves to be ‘unconsciously’ racist in this thread.
Groucho wrote:
Mon 14 Jun 2021 7:03 pm
all the coloured players

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Re: Football team taking the knee

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EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Wed 16 Jun 2021 2:36 pm
Groucho wrote:
Wed 16 Jun 2021 2:00 pm
I also used to watch games at Upton Park and was ashamed of the banana throwing so called fans, in later years the BNP held recruitment drives outside the ground. I must say I'm fascinated by how much you presume to know about my activities... you must a shaman. I do not take back my remark about the stands because I am convinced a lot of the online abuse comes once the cowards have left the grounds and can hide their identity to vent their vitriol. Notice I've never accused you of not attending games, only of being very conveniently myopic. To not understand how awful an incessant stream of racist abuse could be makes me doubt your veracity in this discussion.
Err no it was the NF who used to try and recruit outside the ground actually.
As a lifelong Hammer you’ll know who used to run the ICF if you know who the ICF were of course. Trust me no one would’ve thrown a banana near him.

It’s funny because a simple search on here shows that you have never mentioned West Ham once, even in any of the threads about football.
When I mentioned Clyde Best you never picked up on it even though he was a West Ham player.

Just be honest, you had a quick google and settled on West Ham because they were linked with racism a bit in the 70s.
Couldn’t go Millwall as it was too obvious.
Chelsea would have been a decent call as they used to boo their own black players.
Everton would’ve been a very good call as only those who know football would know they had a bad reputation within the game.
You would have never said Liverpool because they had John Barnes of course, even though the Liverpool supporters threw bananas at him about 18 months before they signed him.
But then you wouldn’t know that would you?
That’s the problem with google, sometimes you need to know what you are looking for.


I didn’t want to bring it up but only one of us has shown themselves to be ‘unconsciously’ racist in this thread.
Groucho wrote:
Mon 14 Jun 2021 7:03 pm
all the coloured players
Blimey you are a troll, I never mentioned West Ham because they are not my team... I was accompanying a relative and was sickened by what I saw.

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Re: Football team taking the knee

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Groucho wrote:
Wed 16 Jun 2021 3:02 pm

Blimey you are a troll, I never mentioned West Ham because they are not my team... I was accompanying a relative and was sickened by what I saw.
Of course you were. ;)
No doubt you both threw down your jellied eels and took off your pearly king jackets and remonstrated with the racists!

Don't worry I get it, CPFC asked you the reasonable question, as the answer was pretty obvious, as to whether you had ever been to a football match in your life. You panicked and had a quick google.

Was he a West Ham fan or were you with the away supporters?
No doubt if he was a West Ham fan you would of course been in The Chicken Run :).
BTW I'm here to help as you'll no doubt want to rehash this another time. For your information the away supporters used to be in the North Bank at Upton Park. No it's not a trick West Ham had a North Bank as well.

As for trolling, who was it who started accusing everyone of racism?

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Re: Football team taking the knee

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So Groucho was it just the one game at West Ham or were there others?
When was it and who were West Ham playing. It obviously made quite an impression on you so I doubt you’d forget 😀

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Re: Football team taking the knee

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EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Wed 16 Jun 2021 4:25 pm
So Groucho was it just the one game at West Ham or were there others?
When was it and who were West Ham playing. It obviously made quite an impression on you so I doubt you’d forget 😀
Always for the local derby v Arsenal, my mate's dad supported Arsenal, so it was a matter of the return journey being strangely quiet no matter what the score line.

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Re: Football team taking the knee

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Groucho wrote:
Wed 16 Jun 2021 7:22 pm

Always for the local derby v Arsenal, my mate's dad supported Arsenal, so it was a matter of the return journey being strangely quiet no matter what the score line.
What era would that have been?

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Re: Football team taking the knee

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That was the seventies, but as I said, they weren't my team. I went to school in Aldershot. So followed them for years, then went to Scotland and followed Livingston Meadowbank Thistle as was, then moved to Hungerford and used to watch Reading and London Irish rugby at the Madstad. Although working for Vodafone who sponsored Man Utd for quite a while I was sorry to see that their fans had and have the worst record for racist abuse of all English teams according to official stats. It was probably one of the major reason VF dropped their sponsorship.

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Re: Football team taking the knee

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Groucho wrote:
Wed 16 Jun 2021 9:29 pm

That was the seventies, but as I said, they weren't my team.
So who were these West Ham supporters throwing the bananas at?

They weren’t at their own black players because even Millwall at their worst never abused their own black players. Chelsea did abuse their first black player Paul Canoville when he first started playing for them but they were the only ones and they got a lot of notoriety because of it. Pat Nevin very bravely spoke out about it and they stopped.

To the best of my knowledge Arsenal had one black player in the whole of the 70s, Brendan Batson, but he only played one game for them and that wasn’t against West Ham. Their next black players, Paul Davis, David Roecastle and Michael Thomas were in the mid to late 80s. So I’d be fascinated to know who West Ham were throwing the bananas at.

They certainly wasn’t at Clyde Best or any other black West Ham players because he would have mentioned it in his very good autobiography which covered the racism he faced in some depth.

Also London derbies in that era were heavily policed especially ones involving the likes of West Ham. When you went you’d have the laces in your shoes taken out and would be lucky to smuggle a single opal fruit in.

So be honest you’ve never seen a banana thrown at a football match but you’ve read it happened on occasion, stories sound better in the first person and you thought you’d gild the lily a bit?

Groucho wrote:
Wed 16 Jun 2021 9:29 pm


Although working for Vodafone who sponsored Man Utd for quite a while I was sorry to see that their fans had and have the worst record for racist abuse of all English teams according to official stats. It was probably one of the major reason VF dropped their sponsorship.

No Vodafone ended its sponsorship of Man U to focus on Champions League sponsorship. Also the Manchester United Supporters Trust pressured them to stop their sponsorship because they had the needle to the Glazers.
It was purely a commercial decision.

Man U supporters were no more lovable when they started their sponsorship as when they ended it.
When they announced they were ending the sponsorship United had Evra, Ferdinand, Silvestre, Saha and Wes Brown all regularly appearing for them. Rio Ferdinand is known as a long standing and very vocal opponent of racism and I doubt would have signed for them if they were known as a club with particularly racist supporters.

Now how the racist barracking generally worked was a few bigots might start it for racist reasons and an embarrassing number of other morons would take it up to put off the other teams black players.
Just like they would have a go at Billy Bremner for being short and ginger or Phil Thompson for having a big nose.

Most of the people making these racist gestures and chants were probably not even racist but were trying to put off the other teams player. Often their best player if truth be told.
When half your team is black it is a bit counter productive to say the least.
Now I’m not excusing them because if anything it is even more disgusting to not be racist and join in but I’m pointing out the reality.

So what actually stopped the racism on the terraces was black players started coming though in droves and were very very good so it wasn’t terribly productive being racist to the opposition’s players because you would have put your own team’s black players off as well.

No FA campaigns, no media campaigns, no virtue signalling gestures, just black footballers being inspired by the likes of a Clyde Best and showing what great footballers they were.

The statistics you refer to I assume are the Home Office statistics released in 2019. Several years after the Vodaphone deal ended but still.
That data showed that 27 individuals recorded as United fans by police were arrested during the seasons 2014-15 to 2017-18 for racist incidents. It doesn’t say whether they were in or out of the ground but...
So that’s 27 in four seasons. That’s an average of less than 7 a season over a season of 38 games.
Manchester United pointed out that their large attendances meant the 27 fans equated to just 0.0004 per cent of their match-going fanbase.
Banana throwing West Ham had 11 arrests in the same period if you’re interested. My club Spurs had 3, 3 too many but....and Crystal Palace had one.

So it isn’t rife is it?

I don’t have a problem with players making gestures about racism although I would say 0.0004 doesn’t indicate a huge problem.

I would say just don’t make a gesture that gives any oxygen to an organisation who’s main/only priority is ending capitalism when you are on £200,000 a week and have a multi million pound boot deal with companies that exploit black workers in Haiti and also wants to defund a police force who protect your 20 room mansion with indoor and outdoor pools. Hell some of the players have even bigger houses than the BLM founders.

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Re: Football team taking the knee

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"No Vodafone ended its sponsorship of Man U to focus on Champions League sponsorship" That was a fine bit of spin, had you fooled anyway.

The West Ham banana incident is so long ago, that I can't remember who the target was (pretty sure it wasn't Clyde Best) but more than one banana was lobbed the time I went with Bob's dad, the Arsenal supporter.... although come to think of it, I think Bob's dad told me they weren't real fans just trouble makers wanting to start a brawl because they loved to fight... I also remember him telling me to watch them at the final whistle as they would quite noticeably walk meekly through the older generations on the terrace as they left because they knew they'd've come off worst if they talked back to anyone and got in a scrap with the real fans.

But here's the thing - nobody should make light of racial abuse in percentage terms.... because that doesn't really wash with players who suffer prolonged racial abuse, be it on the pitch, from the stands or on social media. That's because to them your small percentage means nothing and they feel 100% of the racial abuse they get - and here we are not talking about the sort of abuse all players can almost expect to get when fans feel they don't perform well for the team, no - we are talking about abuse based on their ethnicity whether they play well or not. I am not racially abused, you are not racially abused - being accepting of it because we perceive it to be small percentage-wise is not right...

The parents of a child bullied every day at school does not accept its okay because 99.9% of the other school kids are quite happy according to the head teacher...

You may think their taking a stand is wrong - they don't. That's what taking the knee is about for the England players.

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Re: Football team taking the knee

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What other countries in the euros are taking the knee. That after all was the initial posting.It did not say British. We seem To have morphed as usual. The only solidarity with this homage appears to be Britain and the USA. These so called prima dona’ s of sport appear to earn a very good salary from their chosen profession and do very well. This is more than just football it’s a political statement, why is always black and not Chinese Japanese eskimos or any other colour. I for one am getting really peeved of with it. All lives matter not just black, whilst I am on the subject I am bored with reading quotes and references to what other people say before the actual posting. Stop skirting around the issues and say what you really mean. Waddo for an Aldershot boy get real Love the Euros football transcends it all

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Re: Football team taking the knee

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Groucho wrote:
Thu 17 Jun 2021 2:38 pm
The West Ham banana incident is so long ago, that I can't remember who the target was (pretty sure it wasn't Clyde Best) but more than one banana was lobbed the time I went with Bob's dad, the Arsenal supporter.... although come to think of it, I think Bob's dad told me they weren't real fans just trouble makers wanting to start a brawl because they loved to fight... I also remember him telling me to watch them at the final whistle as they would quite noticeably walk meekly through the older generations on the terrace as they left because they knew they'd've come off worst if they talked back to anyone and got in a scrap with the real fans.
It wouldn’t have been at Clyde Best and chances are he would’ve been the only black player on the pitch so I can only guess they were throwing bananas at white players. TBH if you threw a banana at me and called me a black b. I wouldn’t be particularly offended I’d just think you were a bit mental. And by your own words they weren’t real fans and would skulk in the shadows so even 50 years ago it was a vocal minority but I was at games where it was poisonous in that era.
Groucho wrote:
Thu 17 Jun 2021 2:38 pm

But here's the thing - nobody should make light of racial abuse in percentage terms.... because that doesn't really wash with players who suffer prolonged racial abuse, be it on the pitch, from the stands or on social media. That's because to them your small percentage means nothing and they feel 100% of the racial abuse they get - and here we are not talking about the sort of abuse all players can almost expect to get when fans feel they don't perform well for the team, no - we are talking about abuse based on their ethnicity whether they play well or not. I am not racially abused, you are not racially abused - being accepting of it because we perceive it to be small percentage-wise is not right...
I’m not making light of it but you have said it is rife and pointed out a report that had Manchester United as the worst culprits.
I simply pointed out 27 incidents in 4 years at a club that has 76,000 supporters at its home games isn’t signs of a massive or rife problem.
A hundred percent it’s 27 too many but let’s be honest you are never going to eliminate racism 100%. All you can do is make it as uncomfortable as possible for racism to exist and I think football has done that. It ignored the problem for too long and I don’t buy into the fact that the FA initiatives cured the problem.

As Clive Best pointed out the abuse he got barely compared to the abuse Bobby Moore would get from opposing supporters. It's tribal and they will zero in on an obvious trait and run with it. Bobby Charlton’s lack of hair. Peter Crouch being a beanpole. Wayne Rooney looking like Shrek, Billy Bremner being ginger and Clyde Best being black. It’s not sophisticated or clever but it is what it is.
Fortunately using the player’s ethnicity isn’t an option now because of peer pressure more than anything. But what it means when a player is getting abuse for being bald not to assume it is racist based because he happens to be black as well.
Dianne Abbott gets a lot of abuse and I have no doubt some of it might be racist and some of it might be because she is a woman but I believe the vast majority of it is because she is a hypocrite has awful politics and is stupid.

From the 50s the BAME population in the UK grew. There were bound to be teething problems. I was bought up in an area where a lot of BAME people moved to.
Where I was bought up they didn’t like strangers or change in general. My Dad wouldn’t trust anyone from South London or even people from a different block of flats tbh so there was no way he was going to take a house warming gift to the black family who moved in next door. It wasn’t because he was racist, he didn’t want to throw a brick through their windows but I’m sure he would rather someone just like him moved next door. It’s natural.
As the decades have moved on the indigenous white population and the BAME population have got used to each other and rub along pretty well. Let’s not ignore that Black people and Asian people are comfortable bedfellows. African and West Indians people don’t get on that well. Even within the West Indian community you have big island small island rivalry. But getting along was always going to take time.
My problem with the BLM and the likes of Dianne Abbott is they want to undo this and divide us.
Groucho wrote:
Thu 17 Jun 2021 2:38 pm

The parents of a child bullied every day at school does not accept its okay because 99.9% of the other school kids are quite happy according to the head teacher...
Bullying is never ok and there should always be zero tolerance. At its heart that is what racism is, bullying. But whilst you should strive for 100% let’s not pretend that 99.9% should cause riots in the streets. It just means you should be vigilant and make sure there isn’t one kid getting bullied or people feel it is acceptable.

Groucho wrote:
Thu 17 Jun 2021 2:38 pm

You may think their taking a stand is wrong - they don't. That's what taking the knee is about for the England players.
I don’t like the particular gesture as it is rightly or wrongly too associated with the BLM. Come up with something different, they can come up with 100s of different goal celebrations to it shouldn’t be too taxing.
I have no problem with them taking a stand but I honestly think there are far far better things they could take a stand against as footballers. Homophobia would be a good one. Statistically we must have had dozens of gay professional footballers but I could count the number who have come out on one hand because the pressure for the first couple to play and be openly gay would be intolerable.

To me what they are currently doing is the equivalent of demanding the vote for UK women.

AFC
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Re: Football team taking the knee

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Post by AFC »

Taking the knee represents a pivotal moment in English football for anyone wanting a fully inclusive national game. Football in England has been as many have pointed out and correctly so, been more engaged with addressing racial chanting in stadiums and racial abuse directed at players on social media. Sure for those in their 60's and 70's as society has moved past Alf Garnett, things now seem fine.

HOWEVER, the structural, systemic and culturally based racial inequities that are deeply embedded within the very fabric and culture of the game still remain. Little has ever been done to address the barriers faced by British-born South Asian footballers, or the near complete exclusion of British-born East Asian footballers and very little progress is made on the low number of Black coaches in the professional game in comparison to players.

Classic example can be seen at spurs. There was complete silence when spurs made under-23s manager Ryan Mason interim first team coach in April, hired over club legend and Tottenham first team coach Ledley King and current Tottenham and England first team coach Chris Powell – both ofc being Black. Both Black coaches possessed significantly more experience, and qualifications as well as a greater stature within the game and at spurs than their White coaching counterpart, yet Mason gets the job.

Personally, I do see taking a knee ending merely end as little more than a symbolic gesture and no real change will occur.

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Re: Football team taking the knee

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Sat 19 Jun 2021 4:37 pm
AFC wrote:
Sat 19 Jun 2021 1:01 pm

HOWEVER, the structural, systemic and culturally based racial inequities that are deeply embedded within the very fabric and culture of the game still remain. Little has ever been done to address the barriers faced by British-born South Asian footballers, or the near complete exclusion of British-born East Asian footballers
I did point out that the game hasn't engaged with our potential Asian players. Personally I think they maybe a victim of generalisation based on race rather than out and out racism.
For years there was a view that black players couldn't hack it in winter or the mud and lacked physical courage or toughness.
Watching the likes of Laurie Cunningham skip across the mud or a few Bob Hazell tackles put that myth to bed.

I've seen it at junior level that coaches like bigger players. A smaller skillful player finds it harder to make progress than a 15 year old strapping 6 footer. It is a systematic weakness in our game.
My feeling is Asian players are seen as smaller and that is the reason for their lack of progress. It's nonsense as Messi, Xavi and Iniesta dominated football for a few years and they weren't big guys. All it needs is a breakthrough Asian player and the scouts will flood to watch Asian players and recruit them. Football seems to run on herd instinct for the most part.
AFC wrote:
Sat 19 Jun 2021 1:01 pm

and very little progress is made on the low number of Black coaches in the professional game in comparison to players.
Again this is the herd instinct.
Foreign managers were recruited and at first had little success so clubs avoided them,
Then the likes of Wenger came along and were a huge success and now English managers are as rare as unicorns.
Black managers haven't been terribly successful and football is a results business. Once a couple of black managers get success we will probably have a division full of them.
Football is a results business and there is herd instinct.
Also bear in mind the lack of opportunity for ALL English managers. How many are in the Premiership, 5?
AFC wrote:
Sat 19 Jun 2021 1:01 pm

Classic example can be seen at spurs. There was complete silence when spurs made under-23s manager Ryan Mason interim first team coach in April, hired over club legend and Tottenham first team coach Ledley King and current Tottenham and England first team coach Chris Powell – both ofc being Black. Both Black coaches possessed significantly more experience, and qualifications as well as a greater stature within the game and at spurs than their White coaching counterpart, yet Mason gets the job.
Actually I think you'll find that Ledley doesn't have his coaching badges.
As for Chris Powell he has been given opportunities in management with little success. I think he is a good coach but that doesn't necessarily make a good manager as Colin Harvey and Malcolm Allison showed.
Powell got Southend relegated so I doubt he was in with much of a shot.
Re Ledley, are we sure he wanted the job? He is an iconic figure at Spurs but 6 months of bad results and he would have the crowd baying for his blood. It happened to Ardiles and Hoddle. Maybe he didn't want to risk it?
Also maybe Mason had the ear of Levy? There is as much politics in football as in any big business. Campaigning behind the manager's back got Sherwood the job apparently.
Also great managers rarely make great managers. Mediocre players who had to learn to cover their inadequacies make better managers. Maybe black players natural skill at the game is holding them back as managers?
So you might be putting 2 and 2 together there tbf.
AFC wrote:
Sat 19 Jun 2021 1:01 pm

Personally, I do see taking a knee ending merely end as little more than a symbolic gesture and no real change will occur.
Supporting a Marxist organisation will certainly not solve the problems you pointed out.
Clubs want to win trophies and ultimately make money. It's Capitalist to it's core.
If a player can score 40 goals a season and is an Asian transexual, trust me they'll play him.
That's the thing you can't socially engineer football or any sport. What do you do, make half the side female. pick 2 Asians and 1 black player to cover a quota no matter what the talent? The crowd would destroy the under performing players in minutes.

In professional sport, football, the NFL, the NBA, track and field, which is totally performance based, there is no you played badly but that is the fault of slavery or institutional racism. You play well you're picked you play badly and you're not. In this cut throat unforgiving atmosphere black athletes have thrived and generally dominated.

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Re: Football team taking the knee

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British Asians are more interested in cricket than football which is one of the reasons there are few of them in English football. Not many other big footballing countries which have Asian populations play much cricket.

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Re: Football team taking the knee

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

Brazen wrote:
Sun 20 Jun 2021 10:28 am
British Asians are more interested in cricket than football which is one of the reasons there are few of them in English football.
I think that was certainly true of previous generations of British Asians but not so much this one.

The University of Manchester survey found that 60% of British Bangladeshi boys played football regularly, along with 43% of British Pakistanis and 36% British Indians.
When I was dragging my weary bones around playing Sunday football in my 40s, the best player my team had was a Bangladeshi lad.
Thinking back to the early 70s I can think of maybe 10 black players throughout the leagues but in the same period there were at least two Asian players that come to mind. Now based on population that was quite a disparity at the time but the disparity now between even black players and Asian players is enormous.
I’m confident it will get sorted in the next 10-20 years but I do think England has missed a generation or two of potentially very talented players.

I think it’s more a fact that the Asians have fallen victim to the poor junior coaching in England.
If ever you watch schoolboy internationals, England does pretty well against the likes of Italy and Spain but when you look at the teams our players are so much bigger physically than them.
So when they get their growth spurt our players get left behind because they don’t have the skill level, they used to win by being bigger, a very short term advantage.

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