Brexit - Sensible thoughts on a highly charged topic

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Brexit - Sensible thoughts on a highly charged topic

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Post by PoshinDevon »

Without trying to get to deep or emotional about the whole Brexit thing, because after all it’s been discussed ad nauseum on this forum, I found this on Facebook. Posted by a remain voter. Very sensible.


1. I don’t want a second referendum because it is, at heart, an attempt to reverse a democratically valid decision. No-one calling for one really wants to choose between a deal and no deal. They want to choose between leaving and staying.

2. I don’t want a second referendum because the integrity of the system within which that decision was taken is more important than any decisions taken within it.

3. I don’t want a second referendum because the vote was to leave the EU, and we haven’t yet done so. A second referendum would not be an attempt to change a decision already implemented, but to subvert one still to be enacted. It would be legitimate to have a referendum once we were out as to whether we wanted to rejoin – the mirror image of joining in 1973 and checking with the public in 1975 – but not before.

4. I don’t want a second referendum because according to the vote it doesn’t matter how we leave the EU, just that we do. Talk of customs unions and single markets, Canada and Norway: these weren’t on the ballot paper. We voted to leave. That’s what we must do.

5. I don’t want a second referendum because the view that people have more facts now, and would therefore vote more ‘sensibly’, is exactly the kind of patronising upper middle-class speak that put so many Leavers’ backs up last time.

6. I don’t want a second referendum because there’s no evidence that the result would be any different. For all the Leavers who’ve died off since June 2016, there are plenty of people who didn’t vote last time who would vote Leave this time, or who are just sick of the whole thing, or who voted Remain but think the democratic process is more important. And don’t tell me the polls suggest that the result would be different. Those would be the same kind of polls which said there’d be a hung parliament in 2015, that Remain would win in 2016, that Hillary Clinton would be President by now, and that Theresa May would increase her majority last year. You may as well ask Paul the Psychic Octopus. And he's dead, come to think of it.

7. I don’t want a second referendum because it would spark the same kind of animosity, tribalism and resentment as it did last time round, perhaps more so. I agree with John Major (who, like Jimmy Carter, has been more impressive as an elder statesman than he was in office) and his ‘fear that the extremes of right and left will widen divisions and refuse to compromise, whereas more moderate opinion will often seek common ground. Our nation should not tolerate the unreasoning antipathy of the extremes – to the EU, to foreigners or to minority groups. Such antipathy is repellent, and diminishes us as a nation. Softer, more reasonable voices should not be drowned out by the raucous din of the loudest. I freely confess to a taste for compromise. Politics is real life. It isn’t warfare. It isn’t a popularity contest. It’s about people. It’s about four nations who deserve more than an ideological tug of war. Respect and civility would do much to help lift politics out of the dog days in which it is now living. More compromise – less confrontation.’

8. I don’t want a second referendum because I fear that it would spark unrest and disorder from those who feel, not unreasonably, that this is an establishment stitch-up to ignore their views. Yes, the first referendum was not legally binding, but it was politically binding – the government leaflet explicitly said ‘we will enact what you decide.’ Is that disconnect stupid? Yes. But to go back on that promise now would risk further eroding a level of trust in public institutions which is already dangerously low.

9. I don’t want a second referendum because it will then open the door for referenda on all kinds of things, exacerbating divisions and undermining parliamentary democracy.

10. I don’t want a second referendum because that parliamentary democracy is at the heart of our body politic. I don’t want a second referendum because I want our politicians, in the words of Noel Gallagher, to ******** do what we pay you to do, which is run the country and make your mind up.’ I want them to sort it out, probably in a messy compromise which will please almost no-one but which will be also perhaps the best we can hope for. And if they can’t sort it out, they can always go back to the country in the usual fashion, not with a referendum but with a general election.
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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

Sensible fellow but common sense doesn't seem to register with the remainers.
The vote couldn't have been clearer and fairer. Generally when voting for a political party you take a balanced view. You might not agree with them on the NHS and defence but do on crime and the economy for example. You then vote on balance for the party which you think will do the best job overall. This vote was on an extremely simple question. In or out ad it got I believe the highest vote in UK political history to leave. Interestingly, on the day Britain joined the EU, a Mori poll found that 38% were happy, 39% were unhappy and 23% undecided. So opinions didn’t really change in forty-odd years of membership.

To pick up on a couple of points with regard to the 1975 referendum.
PoshinDevon wrote:

3. I don’t want a second referendum because the vote was to leave the EU, and we haven’t yet done so. A second referendum would not be an attempt to change a decision already implemented, but to subvert one still to be enacted. It would be legitimate to have a referendum once we were out as to whether we wanted to rejoin – the mirror image of joining in 1973 and checking with the public in 1975 – but not before.

5. I don’t want a second referendum because the view that people have more facts now, and would therefore vote more ‘sensibly’, is exactly the kind of patronising upper middle-class speak that put so many Leavers’ backs up last time.

It is often incorrectly stated that we voted to join the EEC as it was then. We didn't, Heath took us in after being elected and potentially joining the EEC formed a tiny part of his manifesto.

We actually voted to stay in the EEC where a lot of things were promised by the remain campaign and untruths were told and believed, and the country voted to remain. When the remainers keep quoting that it was they grey vote that tipped the balance to leave do they never consider that those voters were the only ones who voted in both referendums. Maybe this time round they couldn't be fooled?

As for the narrowness of the result, there were 382 voting areas and 263 (68.85%) voted to leave. So in our first by the post system you would have the leave party with a 200+ seat majority. You would struggle to not call that a mandate to govern.

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Post by waddo »

Not legally binding but politically binding - says it all. You, the voters, have had a say. You the voters have put the current Government into power. You, the voters, have let the people you put into power do whatever they wished to do - regardless of any promise they may have made prior to being voted into power. You, the voters, are both leavers and remainers and having voted now expect your government to do as you wish.

One question for you, the voters, only needs to be answered.

Have any Government, in your history of voting, ever done what it is you wish, what they promised and what you expected of them, once they had been voted into power?

What would be the point of a second referendum? The first one proved nothing apart from that 51% of those that bothered to vote wanted to leave the EU. The Government, true to it's promise, put that in motion - history will tell future generations what happens next because at this point in time, nobody else knows, least of all the Government it seems.
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Post by aljanyoung »

The point of a second referendum is that in the first one won by a tiny majority most of the voters had no real idea of the true meaning of what brexit really meant. It has been proven that Farage and his fellow brexiteers told deliberate lies with no evidence to back up their claims. My country Scotland voted overwhelmingly to remain but is being forced against their will to go down the distarous route the May Westminster government is following. Hopefully in another vote or a vote on the final deal sense will prevail but this government is afraid to go down that route.

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Post by Kanonier »

aljanyoung wrote:The point of a second referendum is that in the first one won by a tiny majority most of the voters had no real idea of the true meaning of what brexit really meant.
Where is your evidence for this statement that" most of the voters had no real idea of what brexit really meant"? Whether it be a tiny majority or a huge majority it was still a majority, is that not how democracy works?

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Post by PoshinDevon »

aljanyoung wrote:The point of a second referendum is that in the first one won by a tiny majority most of the voters had no real idea of the true meaning of what brexit really meant. It has been proven that Farage and his fellow brexiteers told deliberate lies with no evidence to back up their claims. My country Scotland voted overwhelmingly to remain but is being forced against their will to go down the distarous route the May Westminster government is following. Hopefully in another vote or a vote on the final deal sense will prevail but this government is afraid to go down that route.
Appreciate your points, however firstly it was made very clear, in fact it was probably the clearest statement made by both sides re the Brexit vote. This was a vote to remain or leave, you the people will decide and there will be no other vote. So it was made very clear there would be no second referendum.

The voters had no real idea what Brexit really meant.....to me if it was unclear then the sensible thing to do would to vote remain. The majority voted to leave. As far as Brexiteers telling lies, well the same could be said by those in the remain camp. Project fear was pushed very hard by the remain side and they continue to do so. Whilst Scotland voted to remain, the U.K. as a whole voted leave and that is democracy whether we like it or not. As for a second vote it cannot and will not happen, that has been made very clear. The original remain poster has summed it up very well - it cannot happen as it would undermine the very fabric of our society and would cause even more harm in the long term.
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Post by David »

Msg 4 , When i voted to leave i certainly did know what i was voting for and would vote the same way again.

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Post by frugal90 »

Scotland, although not my choice will become independant because of brexit.
I hear it day in an day out from my fellow countrymen. I am a unionist and don't want it , but it will happen.

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Post by PoshinDevon »

frugal90 wrote:Scotland, although not my choice will become independant because of brexit.
I hear it day in an day out from my fellow countrymen. I am a unionist and don't want it , but it will happen.
We have friends and relatives in Scotland who would disagree with the above. There is a strong silent majority who despite what may happen with Brexit will always vote to remain part of the Union.
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Post by Keithcaley »

frugal90 wrote:Scotland, ...will become independant because of brexit....
You appear to be stating this as a fact.

By what means, precisely, will this be brought about?

Or was it just an 'opinion'? - because if it was, you didn't say so...

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Post by sophie »

I believe (rightly or wrongly) that a great many people voted to Remain, purely and simply because they knew no other way. They were born after Edward Heath took us into the EEC, which was of course a completely different entity from what we have now. They have no idea what it is to be independent. I have always been somewhat suspicious of Rule by Referendum in any case as it always seems to be open to manipulation.

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

aljanyoung wrote:The point of a second referendum is that in the first one won by a tiny majority most of the voters had no real idea of the true meaning of what brexit really meant. It has been proven that Farage and his fellow brexiteers told deliberate lies with no evidence to back up their claims. My country Scotland voted overwhelmingly to remain but is being forced against their will to go down the distarous route the May Westminster government is following. Hopefully in another vote or a vote on the final deal sense will prevail but this government is afraid to go down that route.
A majority of the highest turnout in UK voting history.

I had the real idea it meant we would be leaving the EU.

When you say lies were told, like this one?
‘There are some in this country who fear that in going into Europe we shall in some way sacrifice independence and sovereignty. These fears, I need hardly say, are completely unjustified.’
That was Ted Heath when he took us in.

Scotland had the opportunity to go their own way in 2014, after 84.6% of the country voted they decided to stay with the UK.
Do you want a re-run of that vote too?
That penalty Gary McAllister missed againt England? Want another go of that too?

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

sophie wrote:I believe (rightly or wrongly) that a great many people voted to Remain, purely and simply because they knew no other way. They were born after Edward Heath took us into the EEC, which was of course a completely different entity from what we have now. They have no idea what it is to be independent. I have always been somewhat suspicious of Rule by Referendum in any case as it always seems to be open to manipulation.
As was shown with that old Mori poll 38% happy, 39% unhappy and 23% undecided/unsure. I would say that there are still a large amount of not sures because they have never lived in a UK that wasn't in the EU. Generally if you aren't sure about something or maybe 60-40 against you'll vote with the status quo. People don't like change, it scares them.

Problem with the EU is there doesn't seem to be a status quo. Even if you accept how it is now for better or worse, you have no idea of what it is going to evolve into in the next 20 years.
In the 1975 referendum the whole crux of the debate was how good a deal we were getting out of a trading association. If people knew they were voting away their sovereignty, border controls and potentially their currency I have no doubt they would have voted far differently.
Thing is the likes of Heath knew what we were signing up for, they just decided not to let us in the secret.
The EU has always known they would need to bring in the union by stealth.

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Post by waddo »

Democracy - I see this word often in this type of discussion - Definition: "A system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives". Meaning, you the voter, put your elected representatives into power and gave them the absolute right to do whatever they think is best for the majority!

"As for a second vote it cannot and will not happen, that has been made very clear. The original remain poster has summed it up very well - it cannot happen as it would undermine the very fabric of our society and would cause even more harm in the long term." Only the elected representatives of the voters can make this decision, nobody else can.

Example: The elected representatives of the people made a decision to take back the Falkland Islands from an invading force - the people were not asked if they agreed, they were just told it was happening. What if the elected representatives had not bothered, would the people have really cared?

What if the elected representatives had disagreed with that decision made by their leader and had voted that they had no confidence in that leader and had the leader replaced by another, who believed that the Falkland Islands were not really worth the trouble and expense?

So, back to a second/third/fourth/fifth referendum - no point in having one really as you, the voters, have already given your authority to the elected representatives to do whatever they wish - provided it is legal! Effectively, you put your coin in the slot and pulled the handle, let the reels spin and see if you win or lose, you have no further control over the outcome.

Personally I have no fear of Brexit but I do have a fear that it will turn Ireland into another form of TRNC with a North & South and that should never happen! I have a fear that Scotland will leave the UK and tread their own path in the EU, good luck to them and I hope they make it but again those in England would be faced with a Hard Border situation as are Ireland. What if Wales also wished to remain in the EU? Trumps wall with Mexico would pale into insignificance when the walls between England, Wales and Scotland were erected!

On the back of all the above thoughts I prepare myself for a No Deal Brexit and the distinct possibility of a divided UK in the near future.
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Post by erol »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:Thing is the likes of Heath knew what we were signing up for, they just decided not to let us in the secret.
The EU has always known they would need to bring in the union by stealth.
Heath, hmm he was leader of the Conservative party as far as my memory serves was he not ? You make it sound like there were no voices back in 75 warning people of the 'secret reality' of what joining the EEC would mean in terms of sovereignty. One of the clearest and loudest such voice would have been that of the arch 'leftist' Anthony Wedgwood Benn. Check out this article he wrote in 1975 in the Spectator magazine for example.

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/05/a ... eferendum/

Still even this sage of prescient vision, exposing the 'secret truth' of what membership would mean, got it wrong in one regard when he said that the decision made by referendum in 1975, "once taken will almost certainly be irreversible." For me nothing undermines the argument that joining the EEC represented a loss of sovereignty more than the reality that as a nation we could, did and have chosen unilaterally to leave. For me it was a trading of degrees of sovereignty in exchange for other benefits, no different in principle than any and all other agreements made between the UK and other states or groups of states and only different in degree and scale in regards to both the sovereignty traded and benefits gained.

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

erol wrote:
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:Thing is the likes of Heath knew what we were signing up for, they just decided not to let us in the secret.
The EU has always known they would need to bring in the union by stealth.
Heath, hmm he was leader of the Conservative party as far as my memory serves was he not ? You make it sound like there were no voices back in 75 warning people of the 'secret reality' of what joining the EEC would mean in terms of sovereignty. One of the clearest and loudest such voice would have been that of the arch 'leftist' Anthony Wedgwood Benn. Check out this article he wrote in 1975 in the Spectator magazine for example.
Yes Benn was very anti EU as was Enoch Powell. The EU debate has always crossed the party lines.
One of the problems the leavers had in 1975 was that their two biggest guns wouldn't share a stage.

Benn like Powell was a politician of principle you might not agree with those principles but they were consistent and you had to respect their integrity if nothing else.
Corbyn has been vocally anti EU his whole political career but now he sees the possibility of getting his grubby little hands on power there is a deafening silence. And he is promoted as a politician of principle

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Post by wizardofmann »

This article say's it all!

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldn ... wrong.html

Mark my words: Maybe not in my lifetime but within the next generation, the European Union will be no more. And good riddance I say.

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

wizardofmann wrote:This article say's it all!

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldn ... wrong.html

Mark my words: Maybe not in my lifetime but within the next generation, the European Union will be no more. And good riddance I say.
I guarantee that all the current members wont still be in it.
That's why they are terrified of us leaving, they are frightened it won't end with us.

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Post by desih »

Which do we think "will be no more" first? The EU or THE UK.

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Post by aripointer »

As I said on the the Brexit subject on this Forum just after the referendum. We know how much it costs the UK to stay in the EU but no idea what the cost will be if we leave. The reported divorce bill will be approx £39.5 billion. The respected Bean Counters counters put in the region of £85 billion which I believe is more like it.
Take it from me Brexit will not happen. Already Whitehall is drawing up plans for a new referendum. 700,000 people marched last Saturday, the largest protest since the Iraq war. At last the youth of our nation are waking up to the fact their voice is not being heard. The Tory party have two options. 1) They do not want an election as it will be Armageddon for them.... 2) To save the party they will opt for a referendum. In my opinion the vote will be 60-40 to remain. I have voted Tory for over 60 years and this government just do not have a clue let alone have a plan to leave the EU. In my book Boris, Gove, Fox, and Davis have led the nation down a blind alley with lies and false promises. Remember this date January 21 2019 is when the nation finally wakes up????

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Post by PoshinDevon »

What is significant about January 21st 2019?

There is a lunar eclipse but not sure how that could affect Brexit. For what it’s worth and this has been discussed on other threads BOTH sides pushed out a lot of misinformation prior to and since the referendum. If you were unsure of which wash to vote the obvious answer would be to vote remain and stick with what you know. The surprise was the huge turnout to vote and the fact that the result was to leave. There were enough on the leave side who clearly thought leaving was better than enduring more years of the same with the possibility of having more of our powers eroded, our armed forces amalgamated and the country absorbed into a European super state.

To have a second referendum would be the worst decision ever made, it will undermine parliament and the way the U.K. operates as a democracy. Whilst the Remain and Brexit sides have continued for over two years to argue there position and trade insults to have another referendum I believe would cause serious unrest.

The PMs position is already precarious so to suggest another referendum would IMO cause outrage within her party, it would result in enough MPs writing a letter of no confidence and an election for a new leader (Of course some would want this to happen anyway) and maybe this is her final bunker and fallback position.......have a leadership election and win giving her the mandate to go the Chequers route. Or lose the election, retire the back benches and say thank goodness I am out of that! It would cause a massive rift in the conservative ranks and give Corbyn and the Labour Party an opportunity to govern.......that is even more frightening.

There will not be another referendum. The ballot paper was very clear. Remain or Leave. The politicians from both sides were very clear - it’s a one time vote, the people will decide.
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Post by kibsolar1999 »

“To have a second referendum ..... it will undermine parliament and the way the U.K. operates as a democracy”

Maybe it is just the right time for exactly that.
because it seems that the UK as a country does not operate its democracy good. Just have a look to your election system. İt seems to be somewhat “crazy” that millions of citizens are not represented in a parliament....and this since many decades /centuries.

No matter what will happen.. with this referendum the UK society was split and this will go on for a long long time.
brexiteers against remainers, left against right, rich against poor, young against old, white against others, men agains woman, Scotland against England.. and so on.
your life in the UK will be at least as “stormy” as in the rest of the EU.
we will see who survives what.
and do not be too happy about if finally the EU will go bust.. it would make it only worse for the UK.

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Post by PoshinDevon »

The first past the post system in the U.K. I will agree is not perfect and yes it has been in place for ever. Proportional representation is not the be all solution tho as I believe it will result in many hung parliaments and trying to form a government that will be able to drive thro legislation would be difficult. Left v Right or middle of the road, it’s what politics is all about and it will never go away. As long as it neither sways to far right or to far left I will be happy. We have lived with this democracy for a long time, it is not perfect for sure but it works. It could get stormy but the UK has a history of weathering such storms.

As for debate about the union between England and Scotland, this has been ongoing for centuries, they have had a vote and the majority of Scots voted to remain part of the union. Of course those in the SNP who are the governing body do not accept this and will continue to push for another vote.......if and when another party get elected to form the government the debate will likely go quiet for a few years until things change again and a pro Scotland Independence Party are elected. It will keep going around in circles.....but for now the people have decided. It of course could well change in the future.

I never suggested I want the EU to go bust. However I would suggest that there are other countries in the EU who are also not satisfied with being a member and want change. The longer the EU hold off on this change means the more these countries will become further dissatisfied. Whatever each side may say the U.K. needs the EU and the EU also needs the U.K. The U.K. however has taken the decision to leave via a democratic vote.
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Post by Mowgli597 »

PoshinDevon wrote:.....To have a second referendum would be the worst decision ever made, it will undermine parliament and the way the U.K. operates as a democracy.
As has already been said the U.K. does not operate its democracy by referendum. It operates it by a parliamentary system whereby representatives are elected who then make the decisions required to run the country.
PoshinDevon wrote:.....There will not be another referendum. The ballot paper was very clear. Remain or Leave. The politicians from both sides were very clear - it’s a one time vote, the people will decide.
Nonsense. It’s not a one time vote. At any time in the future (short or long term) another referendum might be held to uphold or change the result of the first one. That’s the (pragmatic) way Ireland handles referenda

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Re: Brexit - Sensible thoughts on a highly charged topic

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Post by Jonnie »

kibsolar1999 wrote:“ Just have a look to your election system. İt seems to be somewhat “crazy” that millions of citizens are not represented in a parliament....and this since many decades /centuries.

It may be so that millions are not represented but this is because they do not vote. You need to understand how the system works. You actually vote within your constituency for the person to represent you in parliament. This means you can hold this person to account, you can talk to them, correspond with them and visit them at one of their surgeries. I have done the latter on several occasions. On one of these occasions the MP in question was a leader of their party and I was not one of his voters however this did not matter. I would like to be persuaded how better I could be represented. I have been a resident here (KKTC) for around 13 years, I have paid 10s of thousands of pounds in tax and social insurance and yet I cannot vote and communications with the Mayor of Alsancak despite his "I get things done" public persona are ignored. As far as electoral systems go my vote is with the UK.
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Re: Brexit - Sensible thoughts on a highly charged topic

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Post by Jonnie »

I was a remainer by say 55/45 mainly because I knew what in was. However as far as I am concerned the people have spoken and we should just get on with it. Both sides of the house have disrespected this and put Mrs May in an impossible position. Had I been her I would have said sod the lot of you ages ago however she has persevered and should be commended for it. With the support of the house we would have been in a stronger position and they should hang their heads in shame. In hindsight there should have been a mechanism that sent it back to the vote in the first place however there was not and hindsight is 20/20.

The longer we faff the worse for the country it will get, just get on with it.
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Post by Hedge-fund »

aljanyoung wrote:The point of a second referendum is that in the first one won by a tiny majority most of the voters had no real idea of the true meaning of what brexit really meant. It has been proven that Farage and his fellow brexiteers told deliberate lies with no evidence to back up their claims. My country Scotland voted overwhelmingly to remain but is being forced against their will to go down the distarous route the May Westminster government is following. Hopefully in another vote or a vote on the final deal sense will prevail but this government is afraid to go down that route.

So we are liberated from the corrupt eu and then jettison the sweaties?

It just keeps getting better....

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Re: Brexit - Sensible thoughts on a highly charged topic

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Post by kibsolar1999 »

Proportional representation ....will result in many hung parliaments

in germany you have two votes. the first for your direct candidate, the second vote is the vote for a party, for the proportional representation.
eg, it is crazy that a result of , eg in all election areas, 34% for candidate A (party A) 33% for candidate B and 33% for candidate C will lead to a 100% repesentation in parliamnent of the candidates of the A-party. 66% of all voters are not represented. + the ones which did not even bothered to go.. as their candidates would not make it anyway. if you are now, say a non voter or a voter of a 10% party.. what your MP will tell you? sorry.. 34% elected me. subject finished.
in germany you can go to your direct candidate MP and often one of the "losers" sits also in the parliament, maybe in opposition, but maybe this is the one who sits in the government, as his party was able to form a coalition.
so, you can go often to two people sitting in parliamant representing your election area.

if in the UK a proportional representation would come, you would see that many more would go to the elections and both Tories and Labour would end up with at least -15% each of the repesentation in parliament, because new, young parties, eg the Greens, would take much more votes as you may expect.

and then... you need to talk.. and not shout, as this seems to be a common practice in the UK parliament.

Merkels Christian democratic party and social democrats have a hundret pages long "coalition contract" in which all (ok, nearly all) conditions (red lines), compromises and projects for the next "coalition period" is written down. a plan for governing, transparent for control for all.

that is sort of "trustable" and i can not see that the danger of hung parliaments was a problem for quite successful germany to date.
we have six parties in our parliament and, as "nearly everybody" is represented, this will help democracy .

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Post by PoshinDevon »

Mowgli597 wrote:
PoshinDevon wrote:.....To have a second referendum would be the worst decision ever made, it will undermine parliament and the way the U.K. operates as a democracy.
As has already been said the U.K. does not operate its democracy by referendum. It operates it by a parliamentary system whereby representatives are elected who then make the decisions required to run the country.
PoshinDevon wrote:.....There will not be another referendum. The ballot paper was very clear. Remain or Leave. The politicians from both sides were very clear - it’s a one time vote, the people will decide.
Nonsense. It’s not a one time vote. At any time in the future (short or long term) another referendum might be held to uphold or change the result of the first one. That’s the (pragmatic) way Ireland handles referenda
I was referring to the referendum held in 2016 which was to remain or leave the EU.
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Post by PoshinDevon »

kibsolar1999 wrote:Proportional representation ....will result in many hung parliaments

in germany you have two votes. the first for your direct candidate, the second vote is the vote for a party, for the proportional representation.
eg, it is crazy that a result of , eg in all election areas, 34% for candidate A (party A) 33% for candidate B and 33% for candidate C will lead to a 100% repesentation in parliamnent of the candidates of the A-party. 66% of all voters are not represented. + the ones which did not even bothered to go.. as their candidates would not make it anyway. if you are now, say a non voter or a voter of a 10% party.. what your MP will tell you? sorry.. 34% elected me. subject finished.
in germany you can go to your direct candidate MP and often one of the "losers" sits also in the parliament, maybe in opposition, but maybe this is the one who sits in the government, as his party was able to form a coalition.
so, you can go often to two people sitting in parliamant representing your election area.

if in the UK a proportional representation would come, you would see that many more would go to the elections and both Tories and Labour would end up with at least -15% each of the repesentation in parliament, because new, young parties, eg the Greens, would take much more votes as you may expect.

and then... you need to talk.. and not shout, as this seems to be a common practice in the UK parliament.

Merkels Christian democratic party and social democrats have a hundret pages long "coalition contract" in which all (ok, nearly all) conditions (red lines), compromises and projects for the next "coalition period" is written down. a plan for governing, transparent for control for all.

that is sort of "trustable" and i can not see that the danger of hung parliaments was a problem for quite successful germany to date.
we have six parties in our parliament and, as "nearly everybody" is represented, this will help democracy .
I still maintain that hung parliaments are not good in the medium to long term. One of the problems with proportional representation is that you could easily get a fair few numbers of parties coming together to govern. You can write all the documents you want but at the end of the day everyone has to agree......the agreement takes time and it just takes one party to say no or take a different line in the future and not only do things grind to a halt but also you end up having a sequence of elections.

Whilst first past the post is not perfect and has been discussed and debated many times in the U.K. it does in the main ensure the result is clear. As for representation, as has been already mentioned everyone is represented by a member of parliament for their constituency. You may not have voted for them, however they are your representative and you can get to speak to them face to face at one of their surgeries. They are there to serve all in the community, not just those that voted them in as an MP.
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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

PoshinDevon wrote:
kibsolar1999 wrote:Proportional representation ....will result in many hung parliaments

in germany you have two votes. the first for your direct candidate, the second vote is the vote for a party, for the proportional representation.
eg, it is crazy that a result of , eg in all election areas, 34% for candidate A (party A) 33% for candidate B and 33% for candidate C will lead to a 100% repesentation in parliamnent of the candidates of the A-party. 66% of all voters are not represented. + the ones which did not even bothered to go.. as their candidates would not make it anyway. if you are now, say a non voter or a voter of a 10% party.. what your MP will tell you? sorry.. 34% elected me. subject finished.
in germany you can go to your direct candidate MP and often one of the "losers" sits also in the parliament, maybe in opposition, but maybe this is the one who sits in the government, as his party was able to form a coalition.
so, you can go often to two people sitting in parliamant representing your election area.

if in the UK a proportional representation would come, you would see that many more would go to the elections and both Tories and Labour would end up with at least -15% each of the repesentation in parliament, because new, young parties, eg the Greens, would take much more votes as you may expect.

and then... you need to talk.. and not shout, as this seems to be a common practice in the UK parliament.

Merkels Christian democratic party and social democrats have a hundret pages long "coalition contract" in which all (ok, nearly all) conditions (red lines), compromises and projects for the next "coalition period" is written down. a plan for governing, transparent for control for all.

that is sort of "trustable" and i can not see that the danger of hung parliaments was a problem for quite successful germany to date.
we have six parties in our parliament and, as "nearly everybody" is represented, this will help democracy .
I still maintain that hung parliaments are not good in the medium to long term. One of the problems with proportional representation is that you could easily get a fair few numbers of parties coming together to govern. You can write all the documents you want but at the end of the day everyone has to agree......the agreement takes time and it just takes one party to say no or take a different line in the future and not only do things grind to a halt but also you end up having a sequence of elections.

Whilst first past the post is not perfect and has been discussed and debated many times in the U.K. it does in the main ensure the result is clear. As for representation, as has been already mentioned everyone is represented by a member of parliament for their constituency. You may not have voted for them, however they are your representative and you can get to speak to them face to face at one of their surgeries. They are there to serve all in the community, not just those that voted them in as an MP.

The first post the post system is by no means perfect. Parties such as the liberals and UKIP can get millions of votes which translate into zero to a handful of seats but it is a much less dangerous system than PR.

What about if a party needed say the five seats that the BNP or such a party won to form a governement? Suddenly you get a government with a facist tinge because a minority voted that way.

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Post by Mowgli597 »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:What about if a party needed say the five seats that the BNP or such a party won to form a governement? Suddenly you get a government with a facist tinge because a minority voted that way.
E.g. The DUP?

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Post by Mowgli597 »

PoshinDevon wrote:
Mowgli597 wrote:
PoshinDevon wrote:.....To have a second referendum would be the worst decision ever made, it will undermine parliament and the way the U.K. operates as a democracy.
As has already been said the U.K. does not operate its democracy by referendum. It operates it by a parliamentary system whereby representatives are elected who then make the decisions required to run the country.
PoshinDevon wrote:.....There will not be another referendum. The ballot paper was very clear. Remain or Leave. The politicians from both sides were very clear - it’s a one time vote, the people will decide.
Nonsense. It’s not a one time vote. At any time in the future (short or long term) another referendum might be held to uphold or change the result of the first one. That’s the (pragmatic) way Ireland handles referenda
I was referring to the referendum held in 2016 which was to remain or leave the EU.
So was I.

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

Mowgli597 wrote:
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:What about if a party needed say the five seats that the BNP or such a party won to form a governement? Suddenly you get a government with a facist tinge because a minority voted that way.
E.g. The DUP?
or the Liberals come to that.
My point was that two out of the last three governments have been monority ones. So under PR extremist parties with their one or two seats could push for a few concessions to lend their support to a minority government.

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

kibsolar1999 wrote:
that is sort of "trustable" and i can not see that the danger of hung parliaments was a problem for quite successful germany to date.
we have six parties in our parliament and, as "nearly everybody" is represented, this will help democracy .
Was it just under 100 seats the far right (AfD) Alternative for Germany won in 2017 just four years after being formed? Not a great advert for PR but maybe Germany is going retro and that kind of thing is getting popular again?

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Post by waz-24-7 »

When one drives down the road and comes to a crossing of unknown meaning. One makes a decision left or right.
You go right. The road becomes a track and you contemplate the possible error. Do you continue regardless or turn back to rectify the possible mistake?
Everyone makes poor decisions in life. Some more than others. It is the fool who cannot accept an error of judgment.

In my view the BREXIT referendum was floored from the day Mr Cameron proposed it. The stiff upper lip attitude of many who disregard the younger and onward generations who must carry the can as aliens in the European Union, is also selfish folly.

The facts were never made clear and not explained sufficiently. The majority had no understanding of implications such as the Irish border or the loss of so much European citizen privilege.
It is fair and proper that people decide upon the terms of the deal or no deal. Without doubt the minority of misunderstood has become the more enlightened and more able to understand the possible deal on the table. To leave the decision to our foundering government is likely to cause pain and suffering for many many years.

Well done the massive turnout last weekend.
700,000 The youth and future of the UK are sending a message. We took the wrong turning. I can find the right road. I want to find the right road.

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Post by Jonnie »

Most of those I speak to have not changed their minds, or, if they have were remainers who accept the process and wish to get on with it. There were claims from both sides that were difficult to substantiate, some may say lies but then it would be lies on both sides. Cameron was elected on a manifesto that said there would be a referendum, had he not had one the opposite side of the house would be waving it at him, he would also have been criticised had he not implemented the result as he promised. All very clear to me so far. The wording was I believe decided by the electoral commission. So where is this FLAWED? You cannot claim something is flawed just because you do not agree with the result.

I was as previously stated a remainer, now I want the process to move forward, we should back the government and get on with it, the sooner it is done the better. As for the youth and the future of the UK, I dread to think where that will take us, many are work shy snowflakes who spend their time protesting because they have been offended. The road has been chosen, democratically, let us accept that vote as democracy is what we in Britain stand for and move forward wherever that takes us because no-one truly knows what the effect of this will be.
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Post by PoshinDevon »

https://youtu.be/O7dovmaizeQ

Yes it’s a small sample but............. are we really sure these people know why they are marching? The comments given show me that those interviewed are either clueless, lacking in any common sense or just barking mad. As for Delia Smith, if your going to march at least have the courage of your convictions and try and uphold your beliefs. She had either had a few sherries or is loosing the plot. Best stick to cookery methinks.

I maintain that if people were not sure what they were voting for then the sensible option would have been vote remain. The fact that the choice was very clear and there was a huge turnout plus the result was to leave the EU shows that the majority were not convinced by the remain argument.
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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

PoshinDevon wrote:https://youtu.be/O7dovmaizeQ

Yes it’s a small sample but............. are we really sure these people know why they are marching?
I can set a multi choice list of answers.

1) Because it is a march. I worked near Hyde Park Corner and there is a march virtually every Saturday. Generally populated by upper middle class students affecting mockney accents and being edgy and getting down with the kids. In reality they are just parroting the views of their middle aged lecturer who has spent his life hiding in academia and theorising nonsense.

2) Because they didn't set their alarm on the 23rd June 2016 and trying to have a go now.

3) Because though they can spout (recite) seemingly expert views on physics when talking about 9/11, climatology when discussing the planet, politics or the EU they actually don't have enough common sense to work out when they are being sold a pup.

4) Because of their elitst backgrounds they believe their vote or opinion is more important than others.

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

Three days in and we hadn't heard from Waz. I was going to have your photo put on milk cartons I was that worried.

waz-24-7 wrote:When one drives down the road and comes to a crossing of unknown meaning.
One makes a decision left or right.
You go right. The road becomes a track and you contemplate the possible error. Do you continue regardless or turn back to rectify the possible mistake?
Everyone makes poor decisions in life. Some more than others. It is the fool who cannot accept an error of judgment.
I have to ask, were the voting forms different? Mine was leave or stay it really wasn't that complicated.

As for your analogy, when you make a decision you see the result and then might rue that decision or be pleased with it. The remain plan is that we won't have actually made a decision, as we didn't get the right answer.

So what you want is for us to choose right and you take us left. It might be the quicker route it might be the slower route but its best we don't ever know as you know what is good for us.

waz-24-7 wrote:
The stiff upper lip attitude of many who disregard the younger and onward generations who must carry the can as aliens in the European Union, is also selfish folly.

The facts were never made clear and not explained sufficiently.
A huge majority of those who voted in 1975 to stay, voted to leave in 2016. Think that might have been a case of fool me one shame on you, fool me twice...…. Most of the older generation who vote to leave have a stake in the future through their children, grandchildren and great grandchildren and know there is a different and better way than the EU.

Lies were undoubtedly told on both sides I'd be happy to recite the facts recited by the remainers in 1975 which were subsequently proven to be complete lies.
waz-24-7 wrote: Well done the massive turnout last weekend.
700,000 The youth and future of the UK are sending a message. We took the wrong turning. I can find the right road. I want to find the right road.

Get them to get another sixteen and a half millon to turn out and i'll be impressed. A bunch of ban the bomb students going on a march isn't that impressive. The fox hunting march where they said they had 400,000 and it was obvious to the naked eye there was either more or they over estimate other crowds was impressive.

I think they want to find the left road not the right road.
Lenin called them useful idiots.

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Post by Geoff1131 »

I dont claim to be an expert on the EU. But one thing that the current negotiations seem be stuck on, is the situation with the Northern Irish border. Switzerland has borders with 5 other countries, 4 of which are EU member states. They trade freely with all of these countries even Lichtenstein who are not full members and they all seem to be getting along quite well. I suspect the leadership of the EU are aware of this so why cant they accept a similar solution????

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

Geoff1131 wrote: I suspect the leadership of the EU are aware of this so why cant they accept a similar solution????
Because if they make it as awkward as possible they might get another referendum. If you say no to the EU they keep the pressure on and keep asking for votes until you come up with the right answer

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Post by waz-24-7 »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:Three days in and we hadn't heard from Waz. I was going to have your photo put on milk cartons I was that worried.

waz-24-7 wrote:When one drives down the road and comes to a crossing of unknown meaning.
One makes a decision left or right.
You go right. The road becomes a track and you contemplate the possible error. Do you continue regardless or turn back to rectify the possible mistake?
Everyone makes poor decisions in life. Some more than others. It is the fool who cannot accept an error of judgment.
I have to ask, were the voting forms different? Mine was leave or stay it really wasn't that complicated.

As for your analogy, when you make a decision you see the result and then might rue that decision or be pleased with it. The remain plan is that we won't have actually made a decision, as we didn't get the right answer.

So what you want is for us to choose right and you take us left. It might be the quicker route it might be the slower route but its best we don't ever know as you know what is good for us.

waz-24-7 wrote:
The stiff upper lip attitude of many who disregard the younger and onward generations who must carry the can as aliens in the European Union, is also selfish folly.

The facts were never made clear and not explained sufficiently.
A huge majority of those who voted in 1975 to stay, voted to leave in 2016. Think that might have been a case of fool me one shame on you, fool me twice...…. Most of the older generation who vote to leave have a stake in the future through their children, grandchildren and great grandchildren and know there is a different and better way than the EU.

Lies were undoubtedly told on both sides I'd be happy to recite the facts recited by the remainers in 1975 which were subsequently proven to be complete lies.
waz-24-7 wrote: Well done the massive turnout last weekend.
700,000 The youth and future of the UK are sending a message. We took the wrong turning. I can find the right road. I want to find the right road.

Get them to get another sixteen and a half millon to turn out and i'll be impressed. A bunch of ban the bomb students going on a march isn't that impressive. The fox hunting march where they said they had 400,000 and it was obvious to the naked eye there was either more or they over estimate other crowds was impressive.

I think they want to find the left road not the right road.
Lenin called them useful idiots.
Of course the majority ticked the leave box. You clearly did and to damn with the consequences I detect.
Rumble on down that dirt track.
However, as has been seen throughout the democratic world. People can and do change their minds or alter course.
I think it too late now to go back. The UK is already weaker and more vulnerable within the World .

A referendum upon the deal and terms is more difficult but not impossible. Heaven knows the ballot paper had to be simple for the many to understand. The same who fell for fake news ….the massive injection of cash into the NHS. Remember the red slogan bus. Invaded by Turks and £billions into the NHS....What a joke that was.

I fear now that our government feel that people like your good self have awarded them the open mandate to take the car and drive it anyway they feel.
After all the UK voted leave. Government please deliver because the leavers are quite frankly so uninterested its plain sailing.
Mrs May simply wants to remain in power. The 700,000 marchers want a say . They are firmly in the car and very rightly want a say on how the car should be driven.
Whilst I didn't attend I too am firmly in the car and want my say.

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Post by PoshinDevon »

waz-24-7 wrote:
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:Three days in and we hadn't heard from Waz. I was going to have your photo put on milk cartons I was that worried.

waz-24-7 wrote:When one drives down the road and comes to a crossing of unknown meaning.
One makes a decision left or right.
You go right. The road becomes a track and you contemplate the possible error. Do you continue regardless or turn back to rectify the possible mistake?
Everyone makes poor decisions in life. Some more than others. It is the fool who cannot accept an error of judgment.
I have to ask, were the voting forms different? Mine was leave or stay it really wasn't that complicated.

As for your analogy, when you make a decision you see the result and then might rue that decision or be pleased with it. The remain plan is that we won't have actually made a decision, as we didn't get the right answer.

So what you want is for us to choose right and you take us left. It might be the quicker route it might be the slower route but its best we don't ever know as you know what is good for us.

waz-24-7 wrote:
The stiff upper lip attitude of many who disregard the younger and onward generations who must carry the can as aliens in the European Union, is also selfish folly.

The facts were never made clear and not explained sufficiently.
A huge majority of those who voted in 1975 to stay, voted to leave in 2016. Think that might have been a case of fool me one shame on you, fool me twice...…. Most of the older generation who vote to leave have a stake in the future through their children, grandchildren and great grandchildren and know there is a different and better way than the EU.

Lies were undoubtedly told on both sides I'd be happy to recite the facts recited by the remainers in 1975 which were subsequently proven to be complete lies.
waz-24-7 wrote: Well done the massive turnout last weekend.
700,000 The youth and future of the UK are sending a message. We took the wrong turning. I can find the right road. I want to find the right road.

Get them to get another sixteen and a half millon to turn out and i'll be impressed. A bunch of ban the bomb students going on a march isn't that impressive. The fox hunting march where they said they had 400,000 and it was obvious to the naked eye there was either more or they over estimate other crowds was impressive.

I think they want to find the left road not the right road.
Lenin called them useful idiots.
Of course the majority ticked the leave box. You clearly did and to damn with the consequences I detect.
Rumble on down that dirt track.
However, as has been seen throughout the democratic world. People can and do change their minds or alter course.
I think it too late now to go back. The UK is already weaker and more vulnerable within the World .

A referendum upon the deal and terms is more difficult but not impossible. Heaven knows the ballot paper had to be simple for the many to understand. The same who fell for fake news ….the massive injection of cash into the NHS. Remember the red slogan bus. Invaded by Turks and £billions into the NHS....What a joke that was.

I fear now that our government feel that people like your good self have awarded them the open mandate to take the car and drive it anyway they feel.
After all the UK voted leave. Government please deliver because the leavers are quite frankly so uninterested its plain sailing.
Mrs May simply wants to remain in power. The 700,000 marchers want a say . They are firmly in the car and very rightly want a say on how the car should be driven.
Whilst I didn't attend I too am firmly in the car and want my say.
A few remain lies to to balance the discussion.....

European Council President Donald Tusk, said western political civilisation would be destroyed if the UK voted 'Leave'. Has not happened.

George Osborne predicted tax rises and spending cuts would be implemented. Did not happen.

Remainers did suggest there would be an immediate Brexit recession. Did not happen.

3 million people in the UK will lose their jobs was the fictitious figure banded about. Has not happened.

A dangerous fantasy" is how Nick Clegg described EU plans to create an army. Barely three months on from the Referendum, Juncker has proposed an EU army.

We were told companies would leave the UK in their droves. Has not happened.

Remain linked the wording on the bus as a promise to give that £350 million a week to the NHS yet if you look at that wording on the bus it says no such thing. If you look at the photo below there is no promise to fund the NHS from the £350 million a week, all it says is lets fund our NHS instead. In other words we COULD if we wished not we WILL.

There is no doubt that both sides pushed the boundaries with regards to claims during the run up to the referendum. As for the ballot paper having to be simple for many to understand.......what do you mean by this?

However; we have driven the car along the European autobahn for 40 plus years and despite being in the club we were been unable to change gear, turn off and explore alternatives to the autobahn to perphaps find a better way. From those interviewed on the march last week, all I can say is thank goodness I am not sitting in a car with any of them driving.
Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass,it's about learning to dance in the rain

Peterborough Utd -The Posh

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Re: Brexit - Sensible thoughts on a highly charged topic

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Post by waz-24-7 »

POSH.
We haven't left yet !!

I think the Turkish invasion and the NHS points are now well an truly filed to the bin.
Generally speaking the European autobahn has been good to the UK. Prosperity returned to the UK after 2008 global crash.


The new world age of people and civilization migration has frightened the UK into a misguided notion that if we look inwards and close our borders we can become singularly independent and reap prosperity from the world outside of Europe.
That is so not feasible or likely. The whole world will trade with friends and neighbors. A closed border strategy will not promote trade agreements. I think there will be more Indian, and African immigrants to replace the Europeans that for whatever reason we don't want.

I think campaign slogans are of little use now. The deal or no deal is the topic of importance.
How many on this forum have any interest or understanding at all in the nature of the deal or no deal. Clearly 700,000 plus people want a say on the deal. That's democratic don't you agree?

The majority I feel simply resound the echo LEAVE. What does that really mean... no idea ….but someone at the helm will surely sort it out for me.
Last edited by waz-24-7 on Sat 27 Oct 2018 5:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Brexit - Sensible thoughts on a highly charged topic

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waz-24-7 wrote: Of course the majority ticked the leave box. You clearly did and to damn with the consequences I detect.
We don’t know what the circumstances will be yet. However had the majority voted to remain I wouldn’t have been praying for it to blow up in our faces like many remainers including yourself seem to be.
waz-24-7 wrote: Heaven knows the ballot paper had to be simple for the many to understand. The same who fell for fake news.
Ah the view that those who voted the ‘wrong’ way aren’t as bright as you. That kind of elitist thinking almost certainly got Trump elected so congrats on that.
As for the fake news would you be interested in hearing the lies and omissions that the remain side told in 1975? If you believe everything the remain side told you was gospel or they didn’t omit things that they thought might not be helpful to their argument then you are totally naïve.
waz-24-7 wrote: I fear now that our government feel that people like your good self have awarded them the open mandate.
For a self-proclaimed genius you don’t seem to know how elections and mandates work. Or when you vote in a party do you expect them to check in every day with you?
waz-24-7 wrote: Mrs May simply wants to remain in power. The 700,000 marchers want a say.
I’m not a fan of May and didn’t think she would be a particularly good PM, she wasn’t a good Home Secretary. Yes politicians like to get or retain power. Corbyn has been anti EU his entire political career but has been pretty much silent through the whole process because he sees he might pick up votes from the remainers if he keeps his views quiet. Sadly that’s how politics works. I’d explain it to you but I don’t have your brain power.
The marchers had a say on 23rd June 2016 but more had a different say unless you want to be governed by mob rule?

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Re: Brexit - Sensible thoughts on a highly charged topic

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Post by waz-24-7 »

ETS
I hardly think my brain power exceeds yours.
We clearly have differing opinions and that's where it lays.

I do indeed believe that the average working man who felt threatened by immigration has voted LEAVE upon the belief that their lives will become easier. These persons have failed to see the longer term implications of leave. The same, in my opinion, lapped up the simplified slogans presented by the Brexit bus.
The masses voted leave the more enlightened , but not superior, remained.

That is my opinion and it carries now to the need to decide upon the deal. Accept or reject?
Last edited by waz-24-7 on Sat 27 Oct 2018 6:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Brexit - Sensible thoughts on a highly charged topic

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Post by erol »

Oh boy I have been trying to stay out of this one.

Surely the difference between Switzerland and it's boarder with other EU countries and the boarder between Northern Ireland and the Irish mainland, is that Switzerland was not in the midst of a bloody internecine terrorist campaign to unite or resit the uniting of Ireland and where the free movement .of people and goods between Ireland and Northern Ireland was an integral part of the negotiated peace ?

As to the bus, the lie was not that money would be put in to the NHS or could be. The lie was the figure itself. We simply did not / do not pay 350 million a week. That is even ignoring the fact that of the money we no longer pay in to the EU a large proportion of it will have to be spent replicating functions nationally that are currently done at the EU level and paid for from our budget contribution. It was a most egregious lie not based on 'predictions' but a lie of bland hard facts

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Re: Brexit - Sensible thoughts on a highly charged topic

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Post by Kanonier »

@PoshinDevon. Would that be the same Sir Nicholas William Peter Clegg who was less than complimentary about the tax arrangements of various internet companies, I wonder what he's doing now?

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Re: Brexit - Sensible thoughts on a highly charged topic

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

waz-24-7 wrote: We haven't left yet !!
Translation, please god something will go wrong to punish those who voted the way I didn't.
waz-24-7 wrote:
Generally speaking the European autobahn has been good to the UK. Prosperity returned to the UK after 2008 global crash.
Translation everything good is totally because of the EU no matter that there is no evidence to support it. After all Greece were flying after 2008.
waz-24-7 wrote: The whole world will trade with friends and neighbors.
Translation. Hopefully no-one will look at a map and realise China isn't that near.
waz-24-7 wrote:
Clearly 700,000 plus people want a say on the deal. That's democratic don't you agree?
OK I'll change my vote if I can have the final say on every piece of legislation or rule that the EU decides to pass or implement. That's fair surely?

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