Brexit - Sensible thoughts on a highly charged topic

[EnjoyingTheSun]

a large proportion of it will have to be spent replicating functions nationally that are currently done at the EU level and paid for from our budget contribution.

We have law courts, parliament etc etc.

You'd have to educate me to what functions the EU does that we do not have or that would still be needed after we left it.
Then the argument would be could we carry out those functions cheaper. I'd be fascinated if the most pro EU person could honestly say it is a model of efficiency and financial restraint even with it's obvious economies of scale.

[waz-24-7]

Oh boy I have been trying to stay out of this one.

Surely the difference between Switzerland and it's boarder with other EU countries and the boarder between Northern Ireland and the Irish mainland, is that Switzerland was not in the midst of a bloody internecine terrorist campaign to unite or resit the uniting of Ireland and where the free movement .of people and goods between Ireland and Northern Ireland was an integral part of the negotiated peace ?

As to the bus, the lie was not that money would be put in to the NHS or could be. The lie was the figure itself. We simply did not / do not pay 350 million a week. That is even ignoring the fact that of the money we no longer pay in to the EU a large proportion of it will have to be spent replicating functions nationally that are currently done at the EU level and paid for from our budget contribution. It was a most egregious lie not based on 'predictions' but a lie of bland hard facts

Yes indeed,
The underlying truths did not prevent the masses lapping up the propaganda.

Its utter despicable that Farage and Johnson capitalized on the ignorance of the many to hoodwink them into the red bus belief.
The pied piper of Brexit has fortunately been sidelined; waiting his next move I fear should Mrs May be ousted.

The current border issues and potential breakup of the UK as we know it hardly mentioned or explained.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

ETS
I hardly think my brain power exceeds yours.
We clearly have differing opinions and that's where it lays.

Ok I must have totally misread;

Heaven knows the ballot paper had to be simple for the many to understand.

I do indeed believe that the average working man who felt threatened by immigration has voted LEAVE upon the belief that their lives will become easier. These persons have failed to see the longer term implications of leave. The same, in my opinion, lapped up the simplified slogans presented by the Brexit bus.
The masses voted leave the more enlightened , but not superior, remained.

Maybe we can investigate removing the vote from the unenlightened average working people, it is clearly too much for them to cope with.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

Yes indeed,
The underlying truths did not prevent the masses lapping up the propaganda.

Or lack of it such as the intended EU army? The problem is with the EU no-one knows where it will end so a vote to stay in would have been the biggest step into the unknown Britain could take.

[erol]

You'd have to educate me to what functions the EU does that we do not have or that would still be needed after we left it.
Then the argument would be could we carry out those functions cheaper. I'd be fascinated if the most pro EU person could honestly say it is a model of efficiency and financial restraint even with it's obvious economies of scale.

The list of functions we will have to do nationally after we leave the EU is legion, really it is. Nor is it relevant to the point I was making as to if we can do them cheaper or not nationally. PiD said the bus was not a lie because it did not say money would be spent on NHS only that it could. My point is the figure of 350 was a blatant lie because we never paid 350 million a week , that is the figure before rebate and we never paid that figure. The lesser lie is the implication that all we end up not paying to the EU could be spent on the NHS. This is a lie because clearly we will have to spend money on, to give just one example, whole departments to handle say negotiating all the trade deals we will in the post brexit future rather than just benefiting by default from those deals negotiate by the EU centrally. There are countless functions we will have to put in place nationally that were covered by EU membership or rendered unnecessary by dint of it. I could list many many such examples but really I know there is little point. The bus claim was imo undoubtedly one of the most public and blatant and egregious lies during the whole Brexit debate, from either side.

[waz-24-7]

Yes indeed,
The underlying truths did not prevent the masses lapping up the propaganda.

Or lack of it such as the intended EU army? The problem is with the EU no-one knows where it will end so a vote to stay in would have been the biggest step into the unknown Britain could take.

Wish it was that simple.
Of course ,right now, we are far more clear where we are going. I think not.

The European army.
Consider please. The UK military as a standalone force weakens annually as the finance demands further reduces its capability to protect.
The major world powers increase defense and capability spending to the detriment of the UK. Ongoing potential threats from the likes of Russia present real challenges to Europe. A divided Europe is vulnerable and weak in the face of large global powers with massive armed forces and budgets.
Mr Putin looks on in glee as he sees and possibly fuels and influences the break up of the European alliance.

[johnerebus]

Brexit!
Let's exit
The debate
Cos everyone knows
Nothing
Only opinion
Like raw onion
Keeps me weeping
And pains me
Like a huge bunion

JR Esentepe 2018

[PoshinDevon]

Oh boy I have been trying to stay out of this one.

Surely the difference between Switzerland and it's boarder with other EU countries and the boarder between Northern Ireland and the Irish mainland, is that Switzerland was not in the midst of a bloody internecine terrorist campaign to unite or resit the uniting of Ireland and where the free movement .of people and goods between Ireland and Northern Ireland was an integral part of the negotiated peace ?

As to the bus, the lie was not that money would be put in to the NHS or could be. The lie was the figure itself. We simply did not / do not pay 350 million a week. That is even ignoring the fact that of the money we no longer pay in to the EU a large proportion of it will have to be spent replicating functions nationally that are currently done at the EU level and paid for from our budget contribution. It was a most egregious lie not based on 'predictions' but a lie of bland hard facts

Erol,

To be honest I have read so much about the 350million on the side of the bus slogan.....ranging from 350million net, 350million gross, it was more than 350million, it was less than 350million......plus numerous other ways of translating the figure. You can do a simple search and find lots of different theories, figures etc on just this one slogan. So whilst you may say it was a lie, I myself cannot make that call simply because there are so many different views.

My point is that throughout the referendum campaign the information put out by both sides was; let’s say, distorted. However it was the remain side that kept pushing the whole “whatever the leave side said was all lies” and the 350million slogan was thrown back as an example, this is simply not true. Both sides pushed the boundaries in order to gain votes. Then there is the constant accusation that has been repeated often and even on this thread suggesting that those that voted leave must somehow be either stupid, dim or rascist which again is simply not true.

The ballot paper was very clear, in fact it could not have been clearer. Remain or Leave the EU. That was the choice. It was also made very clear that this was a once in a generation vote and we the public will decide. No second vote, no second referendum. I have said it before that if things were not clear or anyone was undecided then surely the sensible option would have been vote remain. Again this did not happen, the turnout was very large and the majority voted leave. Whilst the discussions on the mechanism of leaving etc may not please everyone on both sides the fact is we will be leaving the EU.

It was a close call for me to vote remain or leave but since the referendum my position has hardened having listened to the moaning of the remain side who appear unable to understand what choices were presented and now seek to overturn the majority decision. Also having watched the way the EU have gone about there business or not as the case may be, my dislike for this club has also hardened and if there was another vote tomorrow I would still tick the leave box.

[waz-24-7]

POSH,
Do I understand therefore that you have no view or interest in the nature or outcome of the negotiations for a deal or no deal.
The LEAVE tick was all that mattered.
The possibility of ACCEPT or REJECT the deal is one you would not partake.

[PoshinDevon]

Waz - translating your post what you are saying is that I have ticked the leave box and I have no interest in anything else thereafter which is the typical fall back position of many on the leave side.

I watch, listen and read with interest about how the negotiations are proceeding. Unless I have missed something this deal has not yet been finalised. I wait with interest to see what the final agreement is.

One thing is certain we are leaving the EU. Whether we leave with a deal which is in the best interests of the U.K. or decide that no deal is a better option is for the politicians to decide.

[waz-24-7]

Waz - translating your post what you are saying is that I have ticked the leave box and I have no interest in anything else thereafter which is the typical fall back position of many on the leave side.

I watch, listen and read with interest about how the negotiations are proceeding. Unless I have missed something this deal has not yet been finalised. I wait with interest to see what the final agreement is.

One thing is certain we are leaving the EU. Whether we leave with a deal which is in the best interests of the U.K. or decide that no deal is a better option is for the politicians to decide.

I am in agreement with you on that.

However is your position therefore that you will accept whatever deal or no deal is the outcome?
If that is the case then you are simply following the pied piper in the belief your prosperity and welfare is safe.

Certainly the deal that Mrs May is keen on is far from the LEAVE that you may have hoped for. This is the very reason that backbenchers are in rebellion.
I suspect your support may be with the rebels? Hard Brexit..no deal.

[erol]

To be honest I have read so much about the 350million on the side of the bus slogan.....ranging from 350million net, 350million gross, it was more than 350million, it was less than 350million......plus numerous other ways of translating the figure. You can do a simple search and find lots of different theories, figures etc on just this one slogan.

What we pay into the EU and what we receive back in grants is not a matter of 'theories' , it is just hard plain facts.

https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk ... y/CBP-7886

The only way to get to a figure of 350 million a week is to take the annual figure we 'pay' before the rebate and before the direct cash funding the EU pays back to the UK annually and divide it by 52. If you take that figure and deduct the rebate (and we never pay the higher amount and get the rebate back later, we just pay in the net figure) then the weekly amount is £250 million. If you deduct the cash the EU then sends back to the UK, then the weekly figure is 171 million. This then is what we pay in to the EU after deducting what we get back in cash. Even then if the bus had put this figure on the bus with the implication that this is how much 'extra' money we will have after leaving and could spend on things like the NHS, this would still be grossing misleading because it would imply that we will not have to spend a single penny to replicate functions nationally as a result of leaving the EU.

That someone as grounded and sensible and plainly not stupid as you seems to be 'unsure' as to what the actual figures are and appears to think there are competing 'theories' as to what the actual number are such that a normal person can not make head nor tail of them, disturbs me to be honest as does the idea that this then is the environment in which we made the biggest decision of the last 40 years that will effect generations to come, in the UK and outside of it.

My point is that throughout the referendum campaign the information put out by both sides was; let’s say, distorted. However it was the remain side that kept pushing the whole “whatever the leave side said was all lies” - this is simply not true. Then there is the constant accusation that has been repeated often and even on this thread suggesting that those that voted leave must somehow be either stupid, dim or rascist which again is simply not true.

I voted remain and I never claimed everything the leave side is lies. I claim those things it said that are clearly and blatantly lies are lies but that is not the same thing. Nor have I ever said or suggested that anyone who voted leave must therefore be stupid, or dim or racist. As far as this did happen from some of those who voted remain, and it certainly did from some, it is for me little different to some on the leave side categorising all those who voted remain as 'liberal elites' or 'un patriotic' or 'fear mongers' or any number of other derogatory terms.

The ballot paper was very clear, in fact it could not have been clearer. Remain or Leave the EU.

The question asked was very simple and clear. Just as the asking a MM customer do you want to subscribe to the gold package or the platinum package is a very simple and clear question. However if you do not know what the differences and consequences are of the choices offered it is simply not possible to make an informed decision. Not knowing or understanding what the differences and consequences are between our gold and platinum packages does mean that person is stupid or dim. It means they need to be given proper honest and factual information as to what the differences are so they can make an informed decision. This did not happen as far as I am concerned with the referendum vote,

That was the choice. It was also made very clear that this was a once in a generation vote and we the public will decide. No second vote, no second referendum.

I remain undecided about if I want a second referendum or not. I certainly do understand the arguments that having such before we have even implemented the result of the previous asks serious questions about our democratic process. However I do also believe that not allowing the 'people' to change their minds also asks serious questions about our democratic process. The issue for me is one of 'how soon' should the 'people' be given the opportunity of changing their minds. If we could leave and then rejoin at a later date on the same terms as when we left then I would with no doubt or reservation not support the idea of a second referendum before the result of the first was implemented. I might argue a 'confirming' referendum after say 3 or 5 years to remain out or not, similar to the 75 referendum that was three years after we joined the EEC but I would not support one before that. Yet the reality is should we leave and it prove a clear mistake we will not be able to rejoin under the same terms as when we left, even if 100% of the 'people' want such and it may not even be possible to rejoin under any terms let alone the same as when we left.

I have said it before that if things were not clear or anyone was undecided then surely the sensible option would have been vote remain.

My view is that those who were 'marginal' as to which way to vote were simply more likely to influenced by the lies being told by the extremes on each side according to which struck a particular resonance or annoyance with them. So had I been marginal I may have voted remain simply because of the egregious lies on the bus, as others may have voted leave simply as a reaction to the bullying threats from the likes of George Osborne.

Whilst the discussions on the mechanism of leaving etc may not please everyone on both sides the fact is we will be leaving the EU.

This is where personally my main concerns are. If once we decided by referendum to leave our politicians (and by extension us as the people) had put aside party and personal needs and ambitions and buckled down to finding the best way to leave for the UK as a whole then I would be 100% certain in my opposition to the idea of a second referendum even though the result had not been my personal choice. It is the way in which we have collectively gone about implementing the 'will of the people' post the referendum that leaves me less than 100% certain we should not have a second referendum more that anything else. The whole process has imo been captured by those not seeking what is best for the UK but by those seeing it as an opportunity to gain narrow benefits and gains in an irreversible or near irreversible manner for themselves regardless of what the wider cost to the UK generally may be. For me the whole thing was a balls up from the beginning. Triggering article 50 before we had started any negotiations with the EU as to what kind of exit we might be able to agree was the stupidest thing that could have been done (unless your objective was to try and use the process to gain parochial benefits regardless of the wider cost). After the referendum result we should have said to the EU, lets talk about how we can best implement this democratic decision of the British people for both the UK and the EU and if the EU had responded with 'we can not start such negotiations until you trigger article 50 we should simply have said, ok then we will veto everything we possibly can within the EU until you change your mind. Triggering article 50 before we had any idea as to what might be achievable in exit negotiations was to me like agreeing to have your roof redone by a particular company before negotiating what either the final price or timescale will be. From there on things did not get any better in my view. I sincerely believe that there are those on the extreme end of the leave side of things that have no sincere interest in 'the will of the people' or in the UK leaving the EU per se but whose objective is to leave in such a way that there can be no way back whatever the 'will of the people' might be in 10 years or 40 years or 100 years time and regardless of how leaving in that particular way rather than other alternatives which would also represent having fulfil the will of the people expressed in the referendum might be damaging to large numbers of those in the UK for generations to come but that they themselves will be largely isolated from. I think both the conservatives and labour, by seeking to 'exploit' the leaving process for narrow party reasons have played in to the hands of these tiny minorities on the extremes as well as others like the DUP.

[PoshinDevon]

Waz - translating your post what you are saying is that I have ticked the leave box and I have no interest in anything else thereafter which is the typical fall back position of many on the leave side.

I watch, listen and read with interest about how the negotiations are proceeding. Unless I have missed something this deal has not yet been finalised. I wait with interest to see what the final agreement is.

One thing is certain we are leaving the EU. Whether we leave with a deal which is in the best interests of the U.K. or decide that no deal is a better option is for the politicians to decide.

I am in agreement with you on that.

However is your position therefore that you will accept whatever deal or no deal is the outcome?
If that is the case then you are simply following the pied piper in the belief your prosperity and welfare is safe.

Certainly the deal that Mrs May is keen on is far from the LEAVE that you may have hoped for. This is the very reason that backbenchers are in rebellion.
I suspect your support may be with the rebels? Hard Brexit..no deal.

Waz - you can suspect all you like, your good at it. However at the moment there is no final agreement on how the U.K. will exit the EU. Again as has been stated before no deal is better than a bad deal. Whether that will fully satisfy all those that voted leave remains to be seen.

As for me supporting a no deal hard Brexit , again you are suspecting that’s my position but really you have no evidence to support.

[PoshinDevon]

To be honest I have read so much about the 350million on the side of the bus slogan.....ranging from 350million net, 350million gross, it was more than 350million, it was less than 350million......plus numerous other ways of translating the figure. You can do a simple search and find lots of different theories, figures etc on just this one slogan.

What we pay into the EU and what we receive back in grants is not a matter of 'theories' , it is just hard plain facts.

https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk ... y/CBP-7886

The only way to get to a figure of 350 million a week is to take the annual figure we 'pay' before the rebate and before the direct cash funding the EU pays back to the UK annually and divide it by 52. If you take that figure and deduct the rebate (and we never pay the higher amount and get the rebate back later, we just pay in the net figure) then the weekly amount is £250 million. If you deduct the cash the EU then sends back to the UK, then the weekly figure is 171 million. This then is what we pay in to the EU after deducting what we get back in cash. Even then if the bus had put this figure on the bus with the implication that this is how much 'extra' money we will have after leaving and could spend on things like the NHS, this would still be grossing misleading because it would imply that we will not have to spend a single penny to replicate functions nationally as a result of leaving the EU.

That someone as grounded and sensible and plainly not stupid as you seems to be 'unsure' as to what the actual figures are and appears to think there are competing 'theories' as to what the actual number are such that a normal person can not make head nor tail of them, disturbs me to be honest as does the idea that this then is the environment in which we made the biggest decision of the last 40 years that will effect generations to come, in the UK and outside of it.

My point is that throughout the referendum campaign the information put out by both sides was; let’s say, distorted. However it was the remain side that kept pushing the whole “whatever the leave side said was all lies” - this is simply not true. Then there is the constant accusation that has been repeated often and even on this thread suggesting that those that voted leave must somehow be either stupid, dim or rascist which again is simply not true.

I voted remain and I never claimed everything the leave side is lies. I claim those things it said that are clearly and blatantly lies are lies but that is not the same thing. Nor have I ever said or suggested that anyone who voted leave must therefore be stupid, or dim or racist. As far as this did happen from some of those who voted remain, and it certainly did from some, it is for me little different to some on the leave side categorising all those who voted remain as 'liberal elites' or 'un patriotic' or 'fear mongers' or any number of other derogatory terms.

The ballot paper was very clear, in fact it could not have been clearer. Remain or Leave the EU.

The question asked was very simple and clear. Just as the asking a MM customer do you want to subscribe to the gold package or the platinum package is a very simple and clear question. However if you do not know what the differences and consequences are of the choices offered it is simply not possible to make an informed decision. Not knowing or understanding what the differences and consequences are between our gold and platinum packages does mean that person is stupid or dim. It means they need to be given proper honest and factual information as to what the differences are so they can make an informed decision. This did not happen as far as I am concerned with the referendum vote,

That was the choice. It was also made very clear that this was a once in a generation vote and we the public will decide. No second vote, no second referendum.

I remain undecided about if I want a second referendum or not. I certainly do understand the arguments that having such before we have even implemented the result of the previous asks serious questions about our democratic process. However I do also believe that not allowing the 'people' to change their minds also asks serious questions about our democratic process. The issue for me is one of 'how soon' should the 'people' be given the opportunity of changing their minds. If we could leave and then rejoin at a later date on the same terms as when we left then I would with no doubt or reservation not support the idea of a second referendum before the result of the first was implemented. I might argue a 'confirming' referendum after say 3 or 5 years to remain out or not, similar to the 75 referendum that was three years after we joined the EEC but I would not support one before that. Yet the reality is should we leave and it prove a clear mistake we will not be able to rejoin under the same terms as when we left, even if 100% of the 'people' want such and it may not even be possible to rejoin under any terms let alone the same as when we left.

I have said it before that if things were not clear or anyone was undecided then surely the sensible option would have been vote remain.

My view is that those who were 'marginal' as to which way to vote were simply more likely to influenced by the lies being told by the extremes on each side according to which struck a particular resonance or annoyance with them. So had I been marginal I may have voted remain simply because of the egregious lies on the bus, as others may have voted leave simply as a reaction to the bullying threats from the likes of George Osborne.

Whilst the discussions on the mechanism of leaving etc may not please everyone on both sides the fact is we will be leaving the EU.

This is where personally my main concerns are. If once we decided by referendum to leave our politicians (and by extension us as the people) had put aside party and personal needs and ambitions and buckled down to finding the best way to leave for the UK as a whole then I would be 100% certain in my opposition to the idea of a second referendum even though the result had not been my personal choice. It is the way in which we have collectively gone about implementing the 'will of the people' post the referendum that leaves me less than 100% certain we should not have a second referendum more that anything else. The whole process has imo been captured by those not seeking what is best for the UK but by those seeing it as an opportunity to gain narrow benefits and gains in an irreversible or near irreversible manner for themselves regardless of what the wider cost to the UK generally may be. For me the whole thing was a balls up from the beginning. Triggering article 50 before we had started any negotiations with the EU as to what kind of exit we might be able to agree was the stupidest thing that could have been done (unless your objective was to try and use the process to gain parochial benefits regardless of the wider cost). After the referendum result we should have said to the EU, lets talk about how we can best implement this democratic decision of the British people for both the UK and the EU and if the EU had responded with 'we can not start such negotiations until you trigger article 50 we should simply have said, ok then we will veto everything we possibly can within the EU until you change your mind. Triggering article 50 before we had any idea as to what might be achievable in exit negotiations was to me like agreeing to have your roof redone by a particular company before negotiating what either the final price or timescale will be. From there on things did not get any better in my view. I sincerely believe that there are those on the extreme end of the leave side of things that have no sincere interest in 'the will of the people' or in the UK leaving the EU per se but whose objective is to leave in such a way that there can be no way back whatever the 'will of the people' might be in 10 years or 40 years or 100 years time and regardless of how leaving in that particular way rather than other alternatives which would also represent having fulfil the will of the people expressed in the referendum might be damaging to large numbers of those in the UK for generations to come but that they themselves will be largely isolated from. I think both the conservatives and labour, by seeking to 'exploit' the leaving process for narrow party reasons have played in to the hands of these tiny minorities on the extremes as well as others like the DUP.

Erol, thank you for the link. A good read. My point still remains that both sides fed out information during the campaign that was somewhat misleading. That those who voted remain cannot see or accept this is a concern. You cannot just hit on one slogan and use that as a basis that we didn’t know what we were voting for.......both sides put out misinformation to gain advantage. Rightly or wrongly the public then had to make a choice based on this information. Sadly like most political campaigns including general elections the information, promises etc often turn out to be either false or some way from reality. That is politics and unfortunately unlikely to change.

Your remaining points are all valid and have been argued back and forth on this thread and others so to repeat them all again is a pointless exercise.

The choice on the ballot paper was clear, you can say that there was insufficient or incorrect information to make that choice but it was the same for everyone. The fact is that over 46 million people turned out to vote (72% of those eligible) which was well above the highest number turning out in recent years to vote in a general election. If there was doubt at the end of the campaign as to what was true or untrue the safe option with would in my opinion be to have voted remain. This did not happen. So despite all the confusion, misinformation , lies or whatever put out by both sides the public turned out and the result was clear.

So I say accept the result and ask those who voted remain that instead of predicting the end of the world look forward with a more positive attitude. It will never be perfect but we voted leave and leave we will.

[erol]

My point still remains that both sides fed out information during the campaign that was somewhat misleading. That those who voted remain cannot see or accept this is a concern. You cannot just hit on one slogan and use that as a basis that we didn’t know what we were voting for.......both sides put out misinformation to gain advantage. Rightly or wrongly the public then had to make a choice based on this information. Sadly like most political campaigns including general elections the information, promises etc often turn out to be either false or some way from reality. That is politics and unfortunately unlikely to change.

My reply about the bus was to the idea that it was not a lie because it said could and not would. It was a lie because of the figures regardless of if it said could or would. For me a lie that is based around a prediction of what will happen in the future is materially different from one that just lies about actual reality that has already happened. As someone who voted remain I can see and accept that the quality of the 'debate' on all sides was woeful and this indeed is a concern to me.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 03646.html

[PoshinDevon]

Erol

Again an interesting article. I am sure I could find evidence to show a different side to this argument and also highlight many of the false claims made by the remain side, but I think it hardly seems worthwhile trading links to try and support our position.

The Independant is a pro remain paper as is clearly seen by the words at the bottom of the article asking people to sign up to support there #Finalsay campaign for a vote on any Brexit agreement.

Therein lies another big part of the problem, trying to find information that is unbiased and presents just the facts without aligning itself to one argument or the other. It is very difficult to sort the wheat from the chaff but again we should be used to this by now.

At least we can agree that the quality of the debate was not good, but then again it was what it was for both sides.

[kerry 6138]

[quote="erol"]Oh boy I have been trying to stay out of this one.

Surely the difference between Switzerland and it's boarder with other EU countries and the boarder between Northern Ireland and the Irish mainland, is that Switzerland was not in the midst of a bloody internecine terrorist campaign to unite or resit the uniting of Ireland and where the free movement .of people and goods between Ireland and Northern Ireland was an integral part of the negotiated settlement/quote]

The Common Travel area existed long before the EU, if the Provisional,Official,Real IRA chose to restart their campaign in or out of the EU the response would be the same.
The current talks about the border is how to collect vat duties etc

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Travel_Area

[EnjoyingTheSun]

The European army.
Consider please. The UK military as a standalone force weakens annually as the finance demands further reduces its capability to protect.
The major world powers increase defense and capability spending to the detriment of the UK. Ongoing potential threats from the likes of Russia present real challenges to Europe. A divided Europe is vulnerable and weak in the face of large global powers with massive armed forces and budgets.

Few things here.
1) NATO
2) The UN
3) If we had an EU army and no independant military and the Argentinians invaded the Falklands do you honestly believe our European allies will send their sons to die there on our behalf?
4) As for Putin if he had the intention of taking over Europe he would pick off countires one by one knowing their EU partners would sit on their hands glad it wasn't them. It would be the US who would help not the EU army.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

The list of functions we will have to do nationally after we leave the EU is legion, really it is. Nor is it relevant to the point I was making as to if we can do them cheaper or not nationally.

This is a lie because clearly we will have to spend money on, to give just one example, whole departments to handle say negotiating all the trade deals we will in the post brexit future rather than just benefiting by default from those deals negotiate by the EU centrally. There are countless functions we will have to put in place nationally that were covered by EU membership or rendered unnecessary by dint of it.

Don't agree with any of that and think you are looking at it from the wrong point of view.

£350 million was an exaggeration, its only £170 million a week? Still a few quid no? Big question is are we getting value for money?

I think you'll find we are already paying people to do these jobs but they are redundant at the moment. Do you doubt there are other EU departments that we will be able to do without?


One of the reasons I voted to get out was I saw a bureaucratic money pit.

Private business has to be run profitably so cuts any excess fat as its a waste of money. Apart from HR departments of course!
Good test of the efficiency of a business is look at how bloated their HR department is.

Anything run by the government such as the civil service, NHS etc etc doesn't have to be efficient because they don't have to be profitable as they have 24/7 access to the magical money tree. E.G. You and me.

So as we wound our way down the EU road, and say the Central Bank takes over more tasks do you think the Bank of England cut staff?
Not a chance, they would have simply kept their guy and arranged pointless meetings with his counterpart in Europe. So we won't have saved money and it has cost our share of another salary and more plane tickets.

Plus all the members will need their representative meeting the main guy in Europe even if they didn't have an equivalent before.
And the real kicker is although the Bulgarian's guy's standard of living is much lower than say Denmark, he will have his salary raised to the same level as the highest paid. Ditto expenses of course.

The reason Gove wanted the job of reforming the civil service as much as he did chancellor of the exchequer was for this reason. The civil service needs a root and branch review.


There are a few good arguments to stay in efficiency and value for money isn't one of them.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

However is your position therefore that you will accept whatever deal or no deal is the outcome?
If that is the case then you are simply following the pied piper in the belief your prosperity and welfare is safe.

Certainly the deal that Mrs May is keen on is far from the LEAVE that you may have hoped for. This is the very reason that backbenchers are in rebellion.
I suspect your support may be with the rebels? Hard Brexit..no deal.

The problem is parliament, like the country, is very split on this issue. Politicians apart from the odd exception don't have much integrity, May is a remainer who due to her position is forced to negotiate for Brexit. Corbyn is a leaver but due to the fact he want power will get his party to vote against ANY deal. The EU will make this as hard as possible because they know that if project fear doesn't work first time around it should next time, as proved in Ireland and other countries.

Now as Posh pointed out the normal thing when you are nervous of taking a step into the unknown is to stick with the status quo and remain. The problem is staying in the EU is the bigger unknown. They have spent the last 40 years taking powers by stealth. If I knew the EU now would be the same EU in 20 years time then I might consider remaining but I know it wont.

So it's a game of poker and if we have to go all in (hard Brexit) than so be it.
The EU might not want to lose a great contributer to the budget but they cerrtainly don't want to lose a great customer.

[waddo]

The Government should not be split on this issue, they were voted in to do the will of the people - they just don't want to do that for their own reasons and so they should go and make way for a true coalition government that is 100% behind Brexit. If they remain split (any of them) then they are not doing what the voters told them to do. Right now, as the vote was not a legally binding vote in the first place, they can change their minds and do what they want.

I did not consider it to be a game of poker in any form at all, I can see no future in putting my children, their children and indeed their children's lives and future on a bet! More so when it was a bet that would not effect me for more than (if I am lucky) only a 10 year period. The EU may well have taken power by stealth over the past 40 years and whose fault is that? What do we pay MEP's for in the first place? We appear to pay them to have a good pension and to make as much money for themselves as they can out of the public purse!

To put it into context, as football seems to be the ruling interest in the UK, would you pay the manager of your favourite club if he declared himself to have the sole aim of getting that club out of all the leagues and starting a league of his own? If your answer is NO then tell me why Nigel Farage is an MEP?

[EnjoyingTheSun]

I did not consider it to be a game of poker in any form at all, I can see no future in putting my children, their children and indeed their children's lives and future on a bet!

I think you missed the point I was making.
In any negotiation both sides obviously try to get the best deal for their side. Quite often both sides have the ability to hurt the other side or be hurt by the other side so there is an element of bluff in most negotiations. I will cut off my nose to spite your face.EG If you don't sell me at this price I will go elsewhere even though you know you will get a worse price elsewhere.
The EU have a strong hand but they do not have a royal flush but they are betting as if they do. Our politicians are playing the game as if we are holding 7-2 which we are not.
In poker the best hand loses as often as it wins.

The EU may well have taken power by stealth over the past 40 years and whose fault is that? What do we pay MEP's for in the first place? We appear to pay them to have a good pension and to make as much money for themselves as they can out of the public purse!

I think the days when the majority of politicians worked for the good of the people are long gone.

If your answer is NO then tell me why Nigel Farage is an MEP?

To be honest as you have said MEPs don't seem to be looking after our interests so Farage being an MEP and keeping an eye on the EU racket is no bad thing imo.

[kerry 6138]

The possibility of ACCEPT or REJECT the deal is one you would not partake.

If this was the question on your Peoples / second vote it would mean we left the EU either way, with a deal or under WTO rules.

[waz-24-7]

The possibility of ACCEPT or REJECT the deal is one you would not partake.

If this was the question on your Peoples / second vote it would mean we left the EU either way, with a deal or under WTO rules.

Yes indeed the WTO rules would without doubt grossly hinder the UK from trading easily with the EU. European competitors will have a distinct advantage over British businesses simply on the basis trade within the customs union is easy.. bit like contactless transactions.
It is the case that the EU and the UK economies would be adversely effected and any downturn would prove harmful to all citizens.

Many people and politicians have indicated a desire to trade more vigorously with markets outside of the customs Union. Trading over distance brings its own problems of logistics and cost of same. High tech industries would probably succeed as technology sells worldwide. The less tech and service industries are likely to struggle more to compete with local contactless type suppliers.
In addition the process of finding new customers is hard enough already. To loose any customers because of increased bureaucracy would be disastrous to many SME's and many would surely fail.

[PoshinDevon]

Waz,

As I have posted earlier it is very difficult to find a truly independant, non biased view of the impact of Brexit. If we are all totally honest, we just do not know. If there is a deal on the U.K. leaving the EU will this help or hinder, if there is no deal will this really be a disaster. None of us really know, it’s all personal opinion and depending whether you are a remainder or leaver backed up by articles and links that support your point of view.

Indeed, your post about SMEs proves the point. A very quick google search and you will find lots of information about the impact of Brexit on SMEs. Some SMEs are very positive about Brexit. Many of the articles make for a very interesting read.

I won’t post links as they are easy to find, but despite what you may think, it isn’t all doom and gloom. The important thing is that this was called a once in a generation decision to be made by the British public, the choice on the ballot paper was an easy one, (Leave or Remain), the turnout huge and the result clear. If anyone was in anyway unsure they should have voted remain. We all had the opportunity to select our choice rightly or wrongly, so we should accept the result and let’s get on with it. Only then will we really know what the impact on the U.K. will be in the future.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

I'd love to know where this idea started that the EU has cut bureaucracy?

[waddo]

Posh

You said: "As I have posted earlier it is very difficult to find a truly independant, non biased view of the impact of Brexit. If we are all totally honest, we just do not know. If there is a deal on the U.K. leaving the EU will this help or hinder, if there is no deal will this really be a disaster. None of us really know, it’s all personal opinion and depending whether you are a remainder or leaver backed up by articles and links that support your point of view."

Quite correct, however........

If there is a second vote and the majority votes to remain, then we stay in the EU - What will happen then? Will the world end? Will the wheel continue to turn? Will businesses move out of the UK? Will the whole country be covered in Alien shops and people? Just what a huge change will the country face if they stayed in the EU as they are? Nobody knows that either but at least predictions on a future in the EU would be a lot simpler than outside of the EU!

[PoshinDevon]

Posh

You said: "As I have posted earlier it is very difficult to find a truly independant, non biased view of the impact of Brexit. If we are all totally honest, we just do not know. If there is a deal on the U.K. leaving the EU will this help or hinder, if there is no deal will this really be a disaster. None of us really know, it’s all personal opinion and depending whether you are a remainder or leaver backed up by articles and links that support your point of view."

Quite correct, however........

If there is a second vote and the majority votes to remain, then we stay in the EU - What will happen then? Will the world end? Will the wheel continue to turn? Will businesses move out of the UK? Will the whole country be covered in Alien shops and people? Just what a huge change will the country face if they stayed in the EU as they are? Nobody knows that either but at least predictions on a future in the EU would be a lot simpler than outside of the EU!

But there is not going to be a second vote.

As for predictions on a future in the EU being a lot simpler, sorry cannot agree. When we originally joined what at the time was the common market in the words of Ted Heath “There are some in this country who fear that, in going into Europe, we shall in some way sacrifice independence and sovereignty. These fears, I need hardly say, are completely unjustified.”

Over forty years have passed and the EU has morphed into something that many believed would never be allowed to happen. Who knows how the EU will change in the future......an EU army being just one example. The British Public have expressed the wish to no longer be part of this organisation.

[waddo]

"But there is not going to be a second vote."

My farther never did believe the Government or anything they said for all of his life - if you want to know why, it is simple.

"Peace in our time", that's what the man said! Closely followed by WW2!

Never forget, the Government can do whatever it wants to do - because the voter said so!

[PoshinDevon]

"But there is not going to be a second vote."

My farther never did believe the Government or anything they said for all of his life - if you want to know why, it is simple.

"Peace in our time", that's what the man said! Closely followed by WW2!

Never forget, the Government can do whatever it wants to do - because the voter said so!

I also don’t believe in everything that government or politicians say. However in this instance I am confident there will be no second vote. It has been said many times by the former and present PM plus other MPs that the views of the public would be respected whatever the referendum outcome. We voted to leave and leave we will.

In my opinion it would be political suicide to have a second vote not just for the government but U.K. politics as a whole. If people thought that the arguments for and against leaving the EU raised emotions, there would be much more damage caused by a second vote.

[waz-24-7]

I too do not think there will be a second vote.
I think there will in fact be a deal. I am certain both the UK and the EU will suffer economically.
Posh
your wait and see stance is just to simple and hopeful. To take such a stance on such an important lifechanging event is very dangerous to far to many people across Europe.

Of course the focus has been about damage to the economy. I still have concerns regarding the long term peace in our time that we have enjoyed without interruption. A divided Europe is both vulnerable plus a revert to previous isolationist administrations has given us two massive European wars. I don't want to wait and see how this transpires as right wing isolationists march forth across Europe.

The loss of citizen rights is fact and not open to wait and see
The loss of many European co operations in research , security, healthcare etc is fact.

Do you think that because we are BRITISH the rest of Europe will tip their hats and bow in humble respect of the old empire.
I think not.

No more wait and see. Time to take action and prepare for a difficult ride. In particular in Cyprus I think.

[PoshinDevon]

I too do not think there will be a second vote.
I think there will in fact be a deal. I am certain both the UK and the EU will suffer economically.
Posh
your wait and see stance is just to simple and hopeful. To take such a stance on such an important lifechanging event is very dangerous to far to many people across Europe.

Waz - We are all waiting and seeing you included. Unless of course you are fully involved in the negotiations and influencing the outcome which I very much doubt.

Of course the focus has been about damage to the economy. I still have concerns regarding the long term peace in our time that we have enjoyed without interruption. A divided Europe is both vulnerable plus a revert to previous isolationist administrations has given us two massive European wars. I don't want to wait and see how this transpires as right wing isolationists march forth across Europe.

Waz - It was this country along with support from its allies that initiated peace. The forming of NATO strengthened this position. Our leaving the EU is not suddenly going to plunge it into another war. Right wing isolationists marching forth across Europe? Who are they?

The loss of citizen rights is fact and not open to wait and see
The loss of many European co operations in research , security, healthcare etc is fact.

Waz - We haven’t left yet. How do you know what citizens rights we have lost? I do believe that the UK has already issued information concerning the rights EU citizens who have settled and are working in the U.K. to protect them. I suspect that something similar will be agreed for U.K. citizens who have settled in EU countries.
Loss of cooperation in research, security, healthcare etc - how do you know this?

Do you think that because we are BRITISH the rest of Europe will tip their hats and bow in humble respect of the old empire.
I think not.

Waz - To be honest from the way the representatives in the EU have conducted themselves thus far in the Brexit negotiations I have no doubt they won’t tip hats or bow - I wouldn’t want them to either. No idea why you even mention it .

No more wait and see. Time to take action and prepare for a difficult ride. In particular in Cyprus I think.

Waz - Time to take action.......what do you suggest? Difficult ride; maybe, but after 40 plus years in the EU the British Public have decided that it is time to leave. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. As for Cyprus I presume you are referring to travel, crossing the border etc etc. Again neither you or I know what restrictions the ROC may or may not impose. You of course are on the side of a worse case scenario and scaremongering. If they do impose restrictions then we will have to adapt, plain and simple. If this means flying via Turkey then I personally will do this.....we have entered the TRNC via both Larnaca and Ercan in the past so it’s not a big deal.

In all the above I have to ask, how do you know that the scenarios you have outlined will actually happen or are you just guessing and hoping for a worse case in everything? You have said you think there will be a deal, therefore once the deal is announced you may well find your doom and gloom predictions may not happen.

[ttoli]

[quote="erol"]Oh boy I have been trying to stay out of this one.

"Surely the difference between Switzerland and it's boarder with other EU countries and the boarder between" , you mean Border surely ?

[EnjoyingTheSun]

I still have concerns regarding the long term peace in our time that we have enjoyed without interruption.

One word, NATO.

I don't want to wait and see how this transpires as right wing isolationists march forth across Europe.

Thought it was just in the UK???

The loss of citizen rights is fact and not open to wait and see

Our parliament will regain its power as the sole arbitrator of our citizens rights.

Do you think that because we are BRITISH the rest of Europe will tip their hats and bow in humble respect of the old empire.

At least we wont have faceless buerucrats creating their own empire

[waz-24-7]

I still have concerns regarding the long term peace in our time that we have enjoyed without interruption.

One word, NATO.

I don't want to wait and see how this transpires as right wing isolationists march forth across Europe.

Thought it was just in the UK???

The loss of citizen rights is fact and not open to wait and see

Our parliament will regain its power as the sole arbitrator of our citizens rights.

Do you think that because we are BRITISH the rest of Europe will tip their hats and bow in humble respect of the old empire.

At least we wont have faceless buerucrats creating their own empire

Hmmm. ETS

Rather narrow minded and nationalistic viewpoint I think.
so:
It is the loss of European citizen rights I refer to. For example freedom of entry and travel across the Union.

The type of Empire you refer to is what has guided civilization since man kind emerged. The Union of European counties has provide you peace in your time ( I guess you may not have seen the last great war) Your fear of faceless bureaucrats is hardly worth loosing sleep over.

NATO is hardly the provider of the union that exists within Europe and its unified approach to peace, prosperity and co existence.

BREXIT in the UK has sewn a toxic seed of xenophobia and intolerance that I view as a real negative to future harmony amongst mankind.

[PoshinDevon]

I still have concerns regarding the long term peace in our time that we have enjoyed without interruption.

One word, NATO.

I don't want to wait and see how this transpires as right wing isolationists march forth across Europe.

Thought it was just in the UK???

The loss of citizen rights is fact and not open to wait and see

Our parliament will regain its power as the sole arbitrator of our citizens rights.

Do you think that because we are BRITISH the rest of Europe will tip their hats and bow in humble respect of the old empire.

At least we wont have faceless buerucrats creating their own empire

Hmmm. ETS

Rather narrow minded and nationalistic viewpoint I think.
so:
It is the loss of European citizen rights I refer to. For example freedom of entry and travel across the Union.

The type of Empire you refer to is what has guided civilization since man kind emerged. The Union of European counties has provide you peace in your time ( I guess you may not have seen the last great war) Your fear of faceless bureaucrats is hardly worth loosing sleep over.

NATO is hardly the provider of the union that exists within Europe and its unified approach to peace, prosperity and co existence.

BREXIT in the UK has sewn a toxic seed of xenophobia and intolerance that I view as a real negative to future harmony amongst mankind.

Sorry Waz but you have again failed to provide any sensible responses to the questions I previously asked. It is impossible to have sensible debate or discussion if you consistently refuse to back up your arguments.

In case you aren’t aware a question will end with??????????????? There are a few questions in my previous posts which yet again you failed to reply to. Instead of ignoring the questions people put to you, try putting together a sensible reply. We may not agree but changing the subject and typing out another load of words that are backed up by nothing just isn’t reasonable debate.

You have no more idea about what deal will be done and have no more information than I do as to what will happen when the U.K. exits the EU. It is pure guesswork on your part. Your talk of action but failing to say what action and failure to answer the questions posed is enough evidence of this.

For me this topic has run its course.

[waz-24-7]

I too do not think there will be a second vote.
I think there will in fact be a deal. I am certain both the UK and the EU will suffer economically.
Posh
your wait and see stance is just to simple and hopeful. To take such a stance on such an important lifechanging event is very dangerous to far to many people across Europe.

Waz - We are all waiting and seeing you included. Unless of course you are fully involved in the negotiations and influencing the outcome which I very much doubt.

Of course the focus has been about damage to the economy. I still have concerns regarding the long term peace in our time that we have enjoyed without interruption. A divided Europe is both vulnerable plus a revert to previous isolationist administrations has given us two massive European wars. I don't want to wait and see how this transpires as right wing isolationists march forth across Europe.

Waz - It was this country along with support from its allies that initiated peace. The forming of NATO strengthened this position. Our leaving the EU is not suddenly going to plunge it into another war. Right wing isolationists marching forth across Europe? Who are they?

The loss of citizen rights is fact and not open to wait and see
The loss of many European co operations in research , security, healthcare etc is fact.

Waz - We haven’t left yet. How do you know what citizens rights we have lost? I do believe that the UK has already issued information concerning the rights EU citizens who have settled and are working in the U.K. to protect them. I suspect that something similar will be agreed for U.K. citizens who have settled in EU countries.
Loss of cooperation in research, security, healthcare etc - how do you know this?

Do you think that because we are BRITISH the rest of Europe will tip their hats and bow in humble respect of the old empire.
I think not.

Waz - To be honest from the way the representatives in the EU have conducted themselves thus far in the Brexit negotiations I have no doubt they won’t tip hats or bow - I wouldn’t want them to either. No idea why you even mention it .

No more wait and see. Time to take action and prepare for a difficult ride. In particular in Cyprus I think.

Waz - Time to take action.......what do you suggest? Difficult ride; maybe, but after 40 plus years in the EU the British Public have decided that it is time to leave. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. As for Cyprus I presume you are referring to travel, crossing the border etc etc. Again neither you or I know what restrictions the ROC may or may not impose. You of course are on the side of a worse case scenario and scaremongering. If they do impose restrictions then we will have to adapt, plain and simple. If this means flying via Turkey then I personally will do this.....we have entered the TRNC via both Larnaca and Ercan in the past so it’s not a big deal.

In all the above I have to ask, how do you know that the scenarios you have outlined will actually happen or are you just guessing and hoping for a worse case in everything? You have said you think there will be a deal, therefore once the deal is announced you may well find your doom and gloom predictions may not happen.

Posh.
I am sorry but your "wait and see" and your lets "give it a go " attitude is quite frankly irresponsible when you consider the seriousness the effect will have on the next generations of stand alone UK citizens.
I doubt that the Union will allow any possible re entry in years to come. Not at least without a blooded nose and a massive application to join bill.

I have explained facts on many occasions. UK citizens have chosen to surrender their EU passports. That means we surrender rights and privileges that come with same. I think you are hoping that Cyprus for example will award us special privileges. Perhaps because were are a noble race . Even if they did. They can withdraw them at any time and the future relationship with the UK is the only unknown as it will be with all other Union members.
It is not usual for divorced parties to remain close friends.
I believe my analysis is somewhat qualified whilst your hopes and wishes are exactly that.

Of course right now we must all ( regrettably) join you in the hope and wish queue.

[waz-24-7]

[


ETS
I was simply responding to your analysis of my comments.
Not answering questions.
However please do fire some questions and I will respond best I can.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

The Union of European counties has provide you peace in your time ( I guess you may not have seen the last great war)
NATO is hardly the provider of the union that exists within Europe and its unified approach to peace, prosperity and co existence.

BREXIT in the UK has sewn a toxic seed of xenophobia and intolerance that I view as a real negative to future harmony amongst mankind.

The Treaty of Paris in 1951 pretty much stopped any more wars breaking out. It is the treaties from the nineties I have the problem with and the future treaties.
I know you want to credit the EU with any prosperity that the UK has enjoyed since 1972 but if you are saying that the EU is more important than NATO to our security you really have been drinking the EU kool aid.

We have had an election since Brexit, what was the BNP vote or if you view UKIP as far right what percentage of the vote did they get?
In most of the other EU members the far right vote is increasing significantly.
But because we want to leave an organisation where most of the members have a significant number of fascists in their parliaments we are xenophobic and intolerant?

The reason these countries are lurching to the right is the same as America voted for Trump and the UK voted for Brexit.
People are sick and tired of being patronised by politicians who pee on people's heads and tell them it's raining.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

I doubt that the Union will allow any possible re entry in years to come.

A country that puts in £9 billion a year into their coffers? Who would be one of the top 3 or 4 contributers? One of only a third of the members who puts more in than they take out?

If you were a business and your third biggest customer took their business elsewhere and then returned, would you;

1) Welcome them back with open arms and try to put things in place which meant they would never go elsewhere again?


or

2) Punish their disloyalty by refusing to have anything more to do with them?

Remember, they never invited us in out of friendship they invited us in for money.

I think you are hoping that Cyprus for example will award us special privileges. Perhaps because were are a noble race . Even if they did. They can withdraw them at any time and the future relationship with the UK is the only unknown as it will be with all other Union members.

Again let's look at the real world with some common sense.

Another multi choice question. You are a country with a fragile economy. A quarter of your GDP is tourism. A third of your tourists are from Britain. Those British tourists are three or four times the number that you receive from all the EU countries put together. Do you;

1) Go out of your way even to the point of ignoring EU directives to ensure that those British people keep coming to your country and keep your heads above water.

or

2) Make it as difficult as possible for them to come to your country and ensure they go elsewhere, perhaps to your beloved neighbours in the North.

[waz-24-7]

The Union of European counties has provide you peace in your time ( I guess you may not have seen the last great war)
NATO is hardly the provider of the union that exists within Europe and its unified approach to peace, prosperity and co existence.

BREXIT in the UK has sewn a toxic seed of xenophobia and intolerance that I view as a real negative to future harmony amongst mankind.

The Treaty of Paris in 1951 pretty much stopped any more wars breaking out. It is the treaties from the nineties I have the problem with and the future treaties.
I know you want to credit the EU with any prosperity that the UK has enjoyed since 1972 but if you are saying that the EU is more important than NATO to our security you really have been drinking the EU kool aid.

We have had an election since Brexit, what was the BNP vote or if you view UKIP as far right what percentage of the vote did they get?
In most of the other EU members the far right vote is increasing significantly.
But because we want to leave an organisation where most of the members have a significant number of fascists in their parliaments we are xenophobic and intolerant?

The reason these countries are lurching to the right is the same as America voted for Trump and the UK voted for Brexit.
People are sick and tired of being patronised by politicians who pee on people's heads and tell them it's raining.

ETS
your notion that NATO supports and provides peace in our time is something that I disagree with. Of course this organisation has significant influence over the Noth Atlantic region with regard to possible outside military threats.

The peace in our time within Europe is principally effected by the EU members sitting at the same table with sensible discussion over the welfare and prosperity of the Union. The UK as has Cyprus including the TRNC indeed, has benefited from many social and welfare projects for the betterment of citizens of that Union.

Your sickness of politicians will not I fear disappear or even become diluted by your desertion from the Union.

I agree that the world appears to be lurching towards right wing dictatorial regimes with little tolerance for anything or anyone of the wrong creed.
This is very worrying to me as history is very clear upon how powerful right wing regimes soon become war and hate mongers that have brought massive unrest , suffering and strife to the world.
Mr Trump and indeed the UK have set a disturbing precedent ; laying a dangerous foundation for the re emergence of right wing power hungry regimes that brutally decimated Europe and other parts of the world in recent history. ( 100 years)
These longer term considerations have not been heeded by many who only reflect upon how their visits to TRNC may or may not be hindered after the divorce.
I have and still remain of the view that the long term effects of Brexit for the young and next generations will be the real trial.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

I agree that the world appears to be lurching towards right wing dictatorial regimes with little tolerance for anything or anyone of the wrong creed.
This is very worrying to me as history is very clear upon how powerful right wing regimes soon become war and hate mongers that have brought massive unrest , suffering and strife to the world.
Mr Trump and indeed the UK have set a disturbing precedent ; laying a dangerous foundation for the re emergence of right wing power hungry regimes that brutally decimated Europe and other parts of the world in recent history. ( 100 years)

So you see that America and the UK and the UK have lurched towards a right wing dictorial regimes?

In the UK BNPs vote hasn't moved a jot. If you look at UKIP as being far right then their vote collapsed after Brexit. Trump is a buffoon but his election was the ultimate protest vote from middle America,

Not noticed the rise of the right in France, Germany, Denmark???? Seriously???? You need to take off those Euro glasses off

[EnjoyingTheSun]

Waz,

You have zero evidence to say the UK people are lurching towards the far right and choose to ignore the rise of the far right in the rest of Western Europe.

The AfD took nearly 6 million votes (12.6% of the popular vote) in the German Federal Elections in 2017 to give them 94 seats. The party was only formed in 2013 and is already the third largest in Germany.

The National Rally or National Front in France pull in around 13% of the vote in France and in the last Presidential Election Le Pen got 34% of the vote.

Lega took 17% of the vote in Italy the third highest.

The FPO took 26% of the vote in Austria.


As of the 2015 election The Danish Peoples Party is the second biggest party in Denmark with 21% of the vote.

The Party for Freedom is the second largest in Holland with 13% of the vote.

As for Britain, in the last election UKIP’s share of the vote collapsed to 1.8% of the total, the BNP won less than five thousand of 32 milion votes cast.

Personally I don’t think UKIP is far right and certainly the vast majority of people who voted for them weren’t. They got their referendum and won it and so with their voice heard they had no reason to vote UKIP anymore.

That’s the thing, the ordinary people like to be heard. When you label them racists or xenophobes because they have concerns and ignore those concerns you drive them into the arms of the far right. It happened throughout the 20th Century.
When you have a self-appointed elite label ordinary people deplorables then you get Trump. The ultimate F. you vote.

Maybe the people of Britain voted to leave the EU because they didn’t want their tolerant country to become infected with the fascism rising amongst their EU partners? There is more evidence to point that way than that Britain has lurched to the right unlike our liberal neighbours.

[waz-24-7]

ETS
I think was you that pointed out the lurch towards the far right.
Whilst I see increasingly in the UK a rise in right wing views I don't believe I have made specific reference to the UK lurching towards ultra right.
Regarding Cyprus and UK citizens. You are correct that Cyprus will not hinder UK tourists entry. That would be foolish indeed. However as I have said before and given this is a TRNC forum. UK tourists seen to support TRNC and who may use Larnaca as point of entry are at real risk of antagonism or worse when they pass customs control. UK aliens will have no Union blessed right of entry as currently enjoyed.

Regarding BREXIT voters fearing the rise of fascism. Very very unlikely. I believe the voters were persuaded by the promise of new money for the NHS, A halt to immigration and todays revelation that Aaron Banks BREXIT propaganda was financed by dubious (possibly Russian) money .

[EnjoyingTheSun]

Whilst I see increasingly in the UK a rise in right wing views

But zero evidence in an anonymous ballot at the general election. 1.8% in the UK as opposed to an average of over ten times that throughout our European neighbours or is that inconvenient to acknowledge?

todays revelation that Aaron Banks BREXIT propaganda was financed by dubious (possibly Russian) money .

I find it amusing how many will seek out conspiracy theories that the Russians bought the elections for Brexit or Trump but then fail to even acknowledge that there might be the slightest suspicion that they might have had anything to do with the Skripal poisoning.

How many millions of taxpayer money was used by the remain side to send leaflets out again?

[waz-24-7]

ETS
Water under the bridge I think,
Spilt milk and all that.
However I still have a viewpoint.
I take the view now that one must just get on with it.
Winners and losers will come out of Brexit.
My own plans are to be the former.
Its just gotten a deal more difficult and challenges will emerge that I feel ill prepared for at this moment.
These issues are thrust upon me and many others by some who are unwitting and ignorant.

[mickhm]

Pleased to hear that although you don't know me or anything about me you consider me to be unwitting and ignorant. What an attitiude.!

[waz-24-7]

Pleased to hear that although you don't know me or anything about me you consider me to be unwitting and ignorant. What an attitiude.!

Hence the reference SOME.
No offence meant or intended.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

Pleased to hear that although you don't know me or anything about me you consider me to be unwitting and ignorant. What an attitiude.!

Hence the reference SOME.
No offence meant or intended.

17 million is a lot of some

[waz-24-7]

Hmmm
Did you know that many people don't understand that Ireland is in part a member of the UK.
Even more have no understanding of the good Friday agreement and how the people of Ireland are thrust into a state of real uncertainly and insecurity if a deal is not forthcoming.

It is abundantly clear that the BREXIT leaders in particular Mr Farage capitalized on "ignorance" by openly and visually (the big red bus) proclaiming the NHS cash injection scam and an imaginary queue of Turks at Dover Port.
It saddened me that this type of propaganda was lapped up by some and clearly influenced many.