Brexit - Sensible thoughts on a highly charged topic

[EnjoyingTheSun]

Hmmm
Did you know that many people don't understand that Ireland is in part a member of the UK.
Even more have no understanding of the good Friday agreement and how the people of Ireland are thrust into a state of real uncertainly and insecurity if a deal is not forthcoming.

It is abundantly clear that the BREXIT leaders in particular Mr Farage capitalized on "ignorance" by openly and visually (the big red bus) proclaiming the NHS cash injection scam and an imaginary queue of Turks at Dover Port.
It saddened me that this type of propaganda was lapped up by some and clearly influenced many.

Lots of people on both sides didn’t understand a lot of the issues. Lots of propaganda was used by both sides and some was believed and some wasn’t. Some is still being believed.
I think this feeling that stupid people voted leave despite the ‘facts’ is the elitist behaviour that ultimately cost you. Sorry the people didn’t do what they were there told.
I have highly enjoyed the reactions by some to Brexit and Trump. Though I loath him Trump is in some sort ways the best thing to happen in politics for years.

A mori poll taken the day after we joined the EEC showed 38% in favour 39% against and 23% undecided.
Not much changed

[EnjoyingTheSun]

your notion that NATO supports and provides peace in our time is something that I disagree with.

Stop press, Just read some old archives from the sixties that the Kremelin has released.
Apparently it was the fear of Belgium, Luxemburg and Italy joining forces that stopped Russia deciding to annex the rest of Germany. Nothing to do with the hundreds of thousands of American military based there.

You live and learn.

[waz-24-7]

your notion that NATO supports and provides peace in our time is something that I disagree with.

Stop press, Just read some old archives from the sixties that the Kremelin has released.
Apparently it was the fear of Belgium, Luxemburg and Italy joining forces that stopped Russia deciding to annex the rest of Germany. Nothing to do with the hundreds of thousands of American military based there.

You live and learn.

Wouldn't disagree with what happened in the sixties.
The World has changed immeasurably since then.
Cyber war and war as it used to be has moved on.
What hasn't changed is human nature. The desire for more ,the pursuit of power and influence, conflict and disrespect for fellow man.

A global union will never happen. Smaller working unions such as the USA and the EU are more likely to satisfy and pacify the greed that has supported conflict in these examples over past 150 yrs.

[mickhm]

What hasn't changed is human nature. The desire for more ,the pursuit of power and influence, conflict and disrespect for fellow man

WOW doesn't that sound just like the EU?

[EnjoyingTheSun]

Smaller working unions such as the USA and the EU are more likely to satisfy and pacify the greed that has supported conflict in these examples over past 150 yrs.

The 150 years was picked to duck under the American Civil War of course.

Different states/countries coming together?
Like Yugoslavia you mean?

[waz-24-7]

What hasn't changed is human nature. The desire for more ,the pursuit of power and influence, conflict and disrespect for fellow man

WOW doesn't that sound just like the EU?

Its the general agenda for most political regimes.
Such regimes are better together as allies and friends than isolationist expansionists.

There's no escaping it. British politics is no different and one would be foolish to think it is after Brexit or indeed now.

[waz-24-7]

Smaller working unions such as the USA and the EU are more likely to satisfy and pacify the greed that has supported conflict in these examples over past 150 yrs.

The 150 years was picked to duck under the American Civil War of course.

Different states/countries coming together?
Like Yugoslavia you mean?

OK the American civil war was another terrible example of loss due to a divergence of regions within what is now the UNITED STATES.
Peace prevails within the USA Union.
Peace prevails within the Union of Europe.

Division and isolationism will lead to conflict. A conflict that could be like no other the world has seen. This is an opinion.

I can see no rational argument that Brexit type of divorce and isolationism will make the world a safer and more prosperous place.
Mr Trump has already put his "USA first into action"and trade wars are starting, Such wars are set to increase and lead the USA into an insular and lesser power on the world stage. There are no winners long term in trade wars only losers.

[mickhm]

Waz you are probably right, however I can vote out of office these politicians. Not so the commissioners in the EU who actually make the laws that I am expected to obey

[EnjoyingTheSun]

Smaller working unions such as the USA and the EU are more likely to satisfy and pacify the greed that has supported conflict in these examples over past 150 yrs.

The 150 years was picked to duck under the American Civil War of course.

Different states/countries coming together?
Like Yugoslavia you mean?

OK the American civil war was another terrible example of loss due to a divergence of regions within what is now the UNITED STATES.
Peace prevails within the USA Union.
Peace prevails within the Union of Europe.

Division and isolationism will lead to conflict. A conflict that could be like no other the world has seen. This is an opinion.

I can see no rational argument that Brexit type of divorce and isolationism will make the world a safer and more prosperous place.
Mr Trump has already put his "USA first into action"and trade wars are starting, Such wars are set to increase and lead the USA into an insular and lesser power on the world stage. There are no winners long term in trade wars only losers.

America had been a Union for longer than the EU when their civil war broke out. So had Yugoslavia.

America will continue to be the worlds greatest superpower. Their navy controls the Atlantic and the Pacific which is an undertaking that is beyond any other nation. As big as China s now and might become because America controls the worlds oceans then they can only trade because America lets them.
That isn’t my opinion that is a geopolitical fact.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

Such regimes are better together as allies and friends than isolationist expansionists.

A Brexit vote was to leave the EU not to become their enemy or not trade with them it was a vote to be more independent.
As for expansionist I don’t know where you are getting that from?
Are we planning to invade somewhere or colonise somewhere?

[waz-24-7]

Waz you are probably right, however I can vote out of office these politicians. Not so the commissioners in the EU who actually make the laws that I am expected to obey

Within reason I would agree.
However. The UK must abide by and facilitate vary many EU regulations and Laws if we are to access the very valuable EU markets for goods and services.

Better to be at the law and rule making table than not even be in the room at all. Even less control ongoing I fear.

[waz-24-7]

Such regimes are better together as allies and friends than isolationist expansionists.

A Brexit vote was to leave the EU not to become their enemy or not trade with them it was a vote to be more independent.
As for expansionist I don’t know where you are getting that from?
Are we planning to invade somewhere or colonise somewhere?

Leaving the EU. Indeed, many consider it a divorce. I do also.
It is abundantly clear that the EU views the matter as a divorce with much of the associated animosity and ill will.
Great Britain plus many others has had its period as a global power, colonizing, invading and indeed abusing its power.
Those days are well gone.
The days of the USA as the global strength will pass in much the same way.
As I have said isolationist and power hungry leaders of countries and nations abound. They always have and will.
A convergence of understanding and mutual respect amongst unions such as the EU will maintain the peace currently enjoyed. Yes of course there are issues and difficulties. These in the scheme of things are very surmountable. The departure from the Union opens the door to the bad old days experienced in the last and most recent European wars.
The matter goes a lot deeper than many have considered. Take back control. ( of what I ask) has very grim possibilities.

[bear]

Waz,

You mentioned "Farage and the big red bus." He had nothing to do with that, in fact he stated the next day that the figure should have been £200 to £250 m allowing for the rebates made by Thatcher and amended by Blair. It was the leave campaign headed by Johnson and Gove who did not allow for the rebate. Farage was not part of that official Leave Campaign.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

However. The UK must abide by and facilitate vary many EU regulations and Laws if we are to access the very valuable EU markets for goods and services.
Better to be at the law and rule making table than not even be in the room at all. Even less control ongoing I fear.

At the last count UK exports to the EU were £274 billion which was less than China. China as far as I know isn’t hamstrung by the European Court of Human Rights. On the other side of the coin I'd be very surprised if the EU didn't want to sell £341 billion of goods to us.

As for being at the law and rule making table, let's be honest we are there but only to bring tea and biscuits to the Germans and French who dictate what happens.

[PoshinDevon]

A good 7 minutes.

This lady is spot on.

https://youtu.be/CNh3312dTtA

[EnjoyingTheSun]

Great Britain plus many others has had its period as a global power, colonizing, invading and indeed abusing its power.

Sure what have the Romans ever done for us

The days of the USA as the global strength will pass in much the same way.

The British Empire lasted 300 or 400 hundred years depending on what view of when it started you take.
The Roman Empire lasted 500 years.
So sure the USA might pass but not for 200-400 years.

To take over from America a country will have to build a navy to control the Pacific and Atlantic oceans. The expense is beyond most and even if they could afford it and chose to take on that role you don't build a navy like that overnight.
Geography counts for a lot. If you was building a world and got to choose what country you could own you'd pick America for it's position.

A convergence of understanding and mutual respect amongst unions such as the EU will maintain the peace currently enjoyed.

Do you want to credit the EU with the moon landing as well?

[waz-24-7]

A good 7 minutes.

This lady is spot on.

https://youtu.be/CNh3312dTtA

Hmm
Very comforting viewing. Little more than that.
We should all rejoice that an EU sceptic feels for us.

[waz-24-7]

ETS,
2-300 yrs is a mere blink.
One should consider the evolution of this planet.
Take the 300 million yrs as a simple 60 minute clock. Mankind has been around for less than a second.
The USA, like previous empires will pass. I have no doubt. The worrying thing is that warfare on a mass scale now spells the ultimate end of war.
I guess another 8 generations and it will all be over as the planet slowly but surely becomes poisoned, is raped and smolders under the threat of a final global war.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

ETS,
2-300 yrs is a mere blink.
One should consider the evolution of this planet.
Take the 300 million yrs as a simple 60 minute clock. Mankind has been around for less than a second.
The USA, like previous empires will pass. I have no doubt. The worrying thing is that warfare on a mass scale now spells the ultimate end of war.
I guess another 8 generations and it will all be over as the planet slowly but surely becomes poisoned, is raped and smolders under the threat of a final global war.

Agree that 300 years is a blink but it will see us and the descendants have any real ties to out.

As for the rest, I thought you was a pessimist as to the effects of Brexit but it turns out that was you positively buoyant and hoping for the best!

[waz-24-7]

Interesting figures and analysis on UK Channel 4
"What the nation really thinks"
Significant move to vote upon any deal or even remain. Surprising support for freedom of movement.

[kerry 6138]

Interesting figures and analysis on UK Channel 4
"What the nation really thinks"
Significant move to vote upon any deal or even remain. Surprising support for freedom of movement.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion ... referendum

Very similar results to the pre Brexit polling almost all predicting a Remain win.

[waz-24-7]

Interesting figures and analysis on UK Channel 4
"What the nation really thinks"
Significant move to vote upon any deal or even remain. Surprising support for freedom of movement.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion ... referendum

Very similar results to the pre Brexit polling almost all predicting a Remain win.

Many people clearly feel far better informed on important issues. Hence the clear shift in every pole out there.
However,
Many also take the view that LEAVE won the referendum and be done with it. A proud but foolish stance I think.

Certainly UK citizens living or staying shorter term in the TRNC (in Europe realistically) having chosen to leave UK shores still feel that divorce from Europe is in their best interest.
I cannot understand such madness.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

Many people clearly feel far better informed on important issues. Hence the clear shift in every pole out there.

Maybe George Soros money that he is pouring in to remain, which never gets mentioned, is buying better propaganda?
The poles themselves could be propaganda you can get a pole to say whatever you want.
The same poles said remain would win and Trump would lose. Both were decided by the ordinary person in the street the person who comes out to vote when asked but doesn't like to discuss it with strangers. The people the polesters never get to.

Many also take the view that LEAVE won the referendum and be done with it. A proud but foolish stance I think.

What foolish to follow democracy?
I'm personally very proud of the political and justice systems in Britain and look forward to having them back. If that makes me foolish, well there are lot of fools out there.

Certainly UK citizens living or staying shorter term in the TRNC (in Europe realistically) having chosen to leave UK shores still feel that divorce from Europe is in their best interest.
I cannot understand such madness.

Maybe they are voting for what is best for Britain rather than narrow self interest?
We hear a lot of rubbish about the old people or for leave and the young better educated are for remain but maybe it is the wiser more unselfish who see the issue correctly.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

Slightly off topic but as it keeps getting bought up let have a look at education.

Historically 10-15% of school leavers went to university but Bliar thought it would be a great sound bite to have 50% go to university.
Unfortunately it would be difficult to raise standards that high in a 100 years let alone 10 so they needed to fiddle it. Exams became easier to enable school leavers to qualify. Suddenly our 16 year olds could get their 12 A star GCSEs which sounds so much better than 5 O'levels. Soundbites always sound better than facts.

Then they needed places for all these extra university candidates so polytechnics were converted into universities. Nothing wrong with polytechnics but they aren't universities and consistently perform below the traditional universities.

Then they needed courses that wouldn't blow the extra 40%'s minds so we now have media studies, transgender studies, the effect of Bob Dylan on the Monkees music etc.

So that is our well educated university leaver, with inflated exams and naïve, as you inevitably are when you have spent your life up to yet in academia away from the real world.

Corbyn promises to write off your student loan, something that he knows he can't afford, and the little darlings believe him. Of course they do, they have been handed A levels on a plate and a degree on a plate why wouldn't someone hand them money on a plate.
The cruel world hasn't entered their world yet. They don't understand people lie and that there is always more than one way to look at things.

Or you have your 70 year old Brexit voter. Personally I'd put their 5 O'levels up against the majority of these degrees coming out of our universities.
They voted in the 1975 referendum and believed the remain propoganda only to be disappointed when it turned out to be lies. So they vote again but this time can spot the tell tale signs of propoganda.
They know enough to take the experts views with a large pinch of salt because experience has told them that there are always experts on any side of an argument so they know enough to read and digest all sides of an argument.
They have children, grandchildren and great grandchildren who they dote on so they are voting as much for their future as for their own interests. They also know that if the country votes to remain then that will be it. There will be no more votes, it took over 40 years to get another vote.

They have lived with 40 odd years of the EU and seen it hasn't delivered and every day makes inroads into their way of life which the trade organisation they thought they were joining would never do. Maybe they are ok with how it is now but fear what the future will bring? Like most people they don't like change but it seems that to remain will bring constant changes which they aren't comfortable with.

There is a referendum which is a one-off so they make sure they have their say and turn out.
They are people that quietly go about their lives so when a pollster asks them how they vote they will ignore them. It is an anonymous ballot for a reason after all.
Once they have voted on a very simple question that is it as far as they are concerned.
There is no reason to go on marches or ask for another vote or to take part in further polls.

We are leaving

[waz-24-7]

ETS
Leaving what? is the very question.
It appears that the divorce is rather half hearted right now.
The marriage is over but we'll share the same house. If that's OK with the unsuspecting BREXIT voter.

What exactly did you vote for. I see no hope of an absolute break from the EU. At least not the BREXIT that many seem to have voted for.

[Hedge-fund]

Waz,

You mentioned "Farage and the Big Red Bus..

[EnjoyingTheSun]

It appears that the divorce is rather half hearted right now.
The marriage is over but we'll share the same house. If that's OK with the unsuspecting BREXIT voter.

What exactly did you vote for. I see no hope of an absolute break from the EU. At least not the BREXIT that many seem to have voted for.

May is in a difficult position, her party is split on this.
The EU have bullied other nations into having more referendums until they come up with a suitable answer.

So its not half hearted we are leaving once we get past the bluff and counter bluff.

We are not taking an absolute break from Europe we will still trade with them, go there on holiday, welcome them into our country and if necessary help to defend them. We are just leaving the EU the club that most of them belong to.

When I started using an independant engineer to maintain my boiler I still got my gas from British Gas its just he was cheaper. When I stopped going to a social club I remained friends with some people from there and ignored the ones I didn't gel with. The only difference now was I met them for a drink in a different place.

[waz-24-7]

Hmmm
ETS
So the EU are bullies and are calling bluff. Not a good basis for your alliances I think
Strange that you still want to be friends, have a drink, trade with and generally be pals.
Cake and eat it springs to mind.

[kerry 6138]

Hmmm
ETS
Strange that you still want to be friends, have a drink, trade with and generally be pals.
.

No stranger than the six countries that formed the European Coal and Steel community in 1950 after what happened in the 1940's

[waz-24-7]

Hmmm
ETS
Strange that you still want to be friends, have a drink, trade with and generally be pals.
.

No stranger than the six countries that formed the European Coal and Steel community in 1950 after what happened in the 1940's

Of course old adversaries can become partners and trading partners for the mutual better good as per your example.
However,
The UK has chosen to divorce itself from the Union. Perhaps in time lessons will be learnt and a New union within Europe including the UK will emerge.
Presently however, or at least 2 years ago, the majority chose to issue divorce papers.
Given most recent polls and the better enlightenment for many. I would say that a folly has taken place.

[Mowgli597]

South deports Russian tourists heading for TRNC
A sign of things which may come to pass?

Also found this interesting. A list of hotels owned by GCs in the TRNC. Old news to some, perhaps, but interesting to those who may not have read the document in full.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

So the EU are bullies and are calling bluff. Not a good basis for your alliances I think
Strange that you still want to be friends, have a drink, trade with and generally be pals.
Cake and eat it springs to mind.

Of course I want to be pals on reasonable terms, like with all pals.
You might have a pal that you play golf with and have a drink with afterwards and lend each other stuff etc.

You might go off them if they insist on choosing what job you do, where you live, what sort of house you live in, who you live with etc.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

Also found this interesting. A list of hotels owned by GCs in the TRNC.

Well not really.
Owning a field with a donkey tied up in it 40 years ago isn't quite the same as owning the Cratos Hotel now.

Obviously the person would need to be compensated for their land but within reason.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

The UK has chosen to divorce itself from the Union.

the majority chose to issue divorce papers.

You keep calling it a divorce Waz and that the EU is the wounded party.

If someone marries a girl called Eunice who turns out to actually be a bloke called Frank do you think he is entitled to call it off?
Or would that make him transphobic?

[PoshinDevon]

South deports Russian tourists heading for TRNC
A sign of things which may come to pass?

Also found this interesting. A list of hotels owned by GCs in the TRNC. Old news to some, perhaps, but interesting to those who may not have read the document in full.

Thanks for the article and the list.

An interesting read. As far as the hotels etc are concerned there would of course be compensation due for the land which is only fair. Be interesting to read what the final outcome was with regards to the complaints made by the Russian embassy. Maybe there was more to it than those deported are saying, maybe it was an over zealous GC immigration official....we all know they are out there, or maybe this is how the ROC is going to treat people arriving and wishing to cross to the north.

My thoughts are that unless an official statement is put out by the ROC or the U.K. government regarding entry via a ROC airport/port and then crossing to the north then the sensible thing to do would be to fly in and out of Ercan especially in the weeks running up to and post the 29th March 2019.

Things may settle down, the regulations may become clearer and using a ROC airport/port prior to crossing to the north may be fine, however if this isn’t the case then we just adapt. It’s one thing that the British are very good at. Certainly won’t make one jot of difference to us travelling to the TRNC.

[Geoff1131]

E.T.S. I love some of your analogies. It almost makes reading Waz's posts enjoyable to see what you come back with.....

[EnjoyingTheSun]

E.T.S. I love some of your analogies. It almost makes reading Waz's posts enjoyable to see what you come back with.....

Bless you Geoff

[waz-24-7]

South deports Russian tourists heading for TRNC
A sign of things which may come to pass?

Also found this interesting. A list of hotels owned by GCs in the TRNC. Old news to some, perhaps, but interesting to those who may not have read the document in full.

Thanks for the article and the list.

An interesting read. As far as the hotels etc are concerned there would of course be compensation due for the land which is only fair. Be interesting to read what the final outcome was with regards to the complaints made by the Russian embassy. Maybe there was more to it than those deported are saying, maybe it was an over zealous GC immigration official....we all know they are out there, or maybe this is how the ROC is going to treat people arriving and wishing to cross to the north.

My thoughts are that unless an official statement is put out by the ROC or the U.K. government regarding entry via a ROC airport/port and then crossing to the north then the sensible thing to do would be to fly in and out of Ercan especially in the weeks running up to and post the 29th March 2019.

Things may settle down, the regulations may become clearer and using a ROC airport/port prior to crossing to the north may be fine, however if this isn’t the case then we just adapt. It’s one thing that the British are very good at. Certainly won’t make one jot of difference to us travelling to the TRNC.

The information provided by Mowgli illustrates the increased and likely risk to non European UK citizens post March 2019. I have pointed this out in many posts.
I remain astonished that so many ex pats in the TRNC still appear to be BREXITEERS given the clear disadvantage to their position as investors, residents, supporters or regular visitors to Northern Cyprus.
In comparison , Gibraltar is 98% remain. I wonder what % of TRNC UK voters marked the LEAVE box.

My opinion for this is that a large number of ex pats in TRNC have a background in the UK armed services. This noble and very respected (by myself ) vocation produces a certain type of nationalistic profile . One that has been trained and educated for situations of conflict combined with a greater than normal sense of patriotism. King,Country and Brothers in arms above all else. This in essence is no bad thing but I would say a lesser willingness exists that considers any notion that may dilute nationalistic pride in favor of a better and peaceful future. Persons that may not have been trained in the military may be more likely to consider BREXIT in a different light. Particularly those in TRNC that may have identified the points of concern that I have highlighted once we surrender our European status and privileges.

Certainly many have departed the UK for sunny climates within Southern Europe including Cyprus.I think post next March when the new UK non European becomes more isolated. There will be higher numbers returning to home shores for the security and well being that being at home brings.

[waz-24-7]

ETS,
I use the term divorce as many have used this terminology. I think the term, in fact, represents well the acrimonious position we see right now.
BREXIT means LEAVE. Now that is totally misleading given the deal that Mrs May proposes.
The worst thing is that the "deal" is the worst thing all round. No voting rights, massive payments, no trade agreements, no freedoms,
Is that what you voted for....highly unlikely.

[PoshinDevon]

South deports Russian tourists heading for TRNC
A sign of things which may come to pass?

Also found this interesting. A list of hotels owned by GCs in the TRNC. Old news to some, perhaps, but interesting to those who may not have read the document in full.

Thanks for the article and the list.

An interesting read. As far as the hotels etc are concerned there would of course be compensation due for the land which is only fair. Be interesting to read what the final outcome was with regards to the complaints made by the Russian embassy. Maybe there was more to it than those deported are saying, maybe it was an over zealous GC immigration official....we all know they are out there, or maybe this is how the ROC is going to treat people arriving and wishing to cross to the north.

My thoughts are that unless an official statement is put out by the ROC or the U.K. government regarding entry via a ROC airport/port and then crossing to the north then the sensible thing to do would be to fly in and out of Ercan especially in the weeks running up to and post the 29th March 2019.

Things may settle down, the regulations may become clearer and using a ROC airport/port prior to crossing to the north may be fine, however if this isn’t the case then we just adapt. It’s one thing that the British are very good at. Certainly won’t make one jot of difference to us travelling to the TRNC.

The information provided by Mowgli illustrates the increased and likely risk to non European UK citizens post March 2019. I have pointed this out in many posts.
I remain astonished that so many ex pats in the TRNC still appear to be BREXITEERS given the clear disadvantage to their position as investors, residents, supporters or regular visitors to Northern Cyprus.
In comparison , Gibraltar is 98% remain. I wonder what % of TRNC UK voters marked the LEAVE box.

My opinion for this is that a large number of ex pats in TRNC have a background in the UK armed services. This noble and very respected (by myself ) vocation produces a certain type of nationalistic profile . One that has been trained and educated for situations of conflict combined with a greater than normal sense of patriotism. King,Country and Brothers in arms above all else. This in essence is no bad thing but I would say a lesser willingness exists that considers any notion that may dilute nationalistic pride in favor of a better and peaceful future. Persons that may not have been trained in the military may be more likely to consider BREXIT in a different light. Particularly those in TRNC that may have identified the points of concern that I have highlighted once we surrender our European status and privileges.

Certainly many have departed the UK for sunny climates within Southern Europe including Cyprus.I think post next March when the new UK non European becomes more isolated. There will be higher numbers returning to home shores for the security and well being that being at home brings.

Waz........


What a desperate post.

Over many discussions on Brexit you have swayed across a whole range of reasons as to why those voted leave got it so wrong, After initially insinuating that those that voted leave were those over 60 and have no concerns about the younger generation and their future; to then move onto suggesting those that voted leave must somehow be less intelligent, we now have the suggestion that military ex pats especially here in the TRNC and their nationalistic pride are somehow to blame. The better and peaceful future to which you refer has been gained by those that have served and sadly sacrificed themselves to ensure this is so. To think that if we had remained in the EU we could be moving closer to an EU army is a nightmare I don’t want to be part of.

I am ex military and I am proud of my country despite all its failings. I voted leave for many reasons but the main one was to regain control from a club which I firmly believe has to much power and influence over our daily lives, it was not the organisation we were told it would be back in the 70s. Also it costs the U.K. far to much to be a member with not enough in return. I was not so narrow minded as to think oh I must vote remain just so I can travel to the ROC and then travel onwards to the north without hassle. It wasn’t all about me and what I want, it was about what I believe was in the best interests of the U.K.

The U.K. public was fooled once and fortunately those memories have not faded and we will not be fooled again.

[Mowgli597]

Raab admits to not understanding importance of EU trade.
https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2018/1108/1009607-brexit/

‘Britain’s Brexit minister has come under criticism after admitting he "hadn't quite understood the full extent" to which UK trade was "reliant on the Dover-Calais crossing".

‘Dominic Raab told a tech industry meeting in London yesterday: "I don't think it is a question so much of the risk of major shortages, but I think probably the average consumer might not be aware of the full extent to which the choice of goods that we have in the stores are dependent on one or two very specific trade routes."

‘Scientist Brian Cox took to Twitter to ask: "How could it possibly come as a surprise to Dominic Raab that our most important trade gateway is that which is closest geographically to our most important market?"

‘Labour Brexit spokeswoman Jenny Chapman asked: "How are we meant to trust this government to deliver a good deal for the country when we have a Brexit Secretary who doesn't even understand the very basics of Brexit?"

‘Scottish National Party MSP Stewart Stevenson said: "This is a stunning admission that shows just how clueless the Tories are about their Brexit plans.

‘"A Tory Brexit could have a catastrophic impact on trade with the continent and leave supermarket shelves empty."’

Makes one wonder a bit.

[waz-24-7]

Posh
My reasoned debate is to ask the question as to why the TRNC ex pats appear to be so BREXIT. Almost all other ex pat communities within Europe appear to have been predominately REMAIN. Why is this? My suggestion is that the military influence may have some bearing . The ex military presence in TRNC is strong because of historical and happy postings in Cyprus. A return to the sun and good memories I guess.

This is not about Blame. This is your chosen term and clearly you appear to think that "blame" for BREXIT is a suitable description.
I too am proud of my country . We are common on that point. I am certain that all participants in this debate are also. Reasoned debate is no bad thing.
Perhaps you and others have other opinions on why the TRNC appears so BREXIT. I am all ears.

My take is just one opinion. To be clear. This is no slight upon you or our military it is simply an expression of opinion as to the remarkable support for BREXIT within a region that is already isolated. UK ex pats enjoy EU privileges that in such a fragile region are, in my opinion far more valuable to me than if I was say in France or Spain. It is not as you seem to think. Simply on how you will get to the region. It is far deeper and far reaching. Over time the alien status that I and you must endure will lead to a progressive situation of greater isolation. The long term effect in my view is that UK citizens will neither visit nor support the TRNC.

[PoshinDevon]

“UK ex pats enjoy EU privileges that in such a fragile region are, in my opinion far more valuable to me than if I was say in France or Spain. “

These privileges are?

Let’s me make it clear, I voted for the much wider picture when voting leave. When the U.K. leaves the EU will we still be able to travel to the TRNC? The answer is yes.

[jofra]

"There are lies; damned lies; and statistics" - I haven't read (or bothered to) statistics re expat voting in TRNC is or is not greatly different from (for example) the rest of France, Germany, Italy, etc. - the reason is blazingly simple and obvious.....
GB is an island nation; Cyprus(TRNC) is an island nation - IT'S AN ISLAND MENTALITY.... there's the reason!
(!! JOKE !!)

[waz-24-7]

“UK ex pats enjoy EU privileges that in such a fragile region are, in my opinion far more valuable to me than if I was say in France or Spain. “

These privileges are?

Let’s me make it clear, I voted for the much wider picture when voting leave. When the U.K. leaves the EU will we still be able to travel to the TRNC? The answer is yes.

The EU privileges. I have mentioned these on numerous occasions.
If you look a little closely at your passport it is a UK passport with European status. ( an EU passport. ..... Line up in the EU passport queue)
That gives the holder free right of passage un hindered across the 27 regions within Europe.
The Union shares and co operates in a multitude of schemes that protect and effect your welfare and security.
For example. The sharing of criminal data and records to combat crime and criminal intent. Customs co operations and border controls.
The sharing of research in, medicine, science, aviation, exploration including space travel , satellite technology, other technologies for the betterment of the whole.
EU funded social welfare schemes such as those seen in deprived areas such as the North East of England and the Welsh valleys. Even the TRNC has had some Eu funding .
These are privileges and benefits that have somewhat been overlooked.... I fear you do not know of these hence your question.

Yes you will be able to travel to TRNC. I remain confident of that, More difficult as it will be. Longer term the clear disadvantages of alien status in Cyprus will make it more difficult, less attractive and the UK presence in TRNC will diminish over time.

[PoshinDevon]

Well aware of what you have posted Waz , please try not to be patronising.

In case I never made it clear, I was specifically referring to EU benefits for ex pats living in the TRNC.

Do you have factual evidence that those U.K. ex pats living in the TRNC who voted in the referendum in the majority voted leave?

Do you have proof that ex military either in the U.K. or as ex pats here in North Cyprus voted in the main to leave or remain?

Did U.K. ex pats living in the ROC in the majority vote remain?

The problem for me with your form of debate is that you continually ignore direct questioning of your comments, this I have mentioned many times. If you don’t like the question or are asked to back it up, more often than not you go off at a tangent. You also post as if everyone should just believe what you post without question whilst suggesting that if they don’t they must somehow either know little about the subject or perhaps are less intelligent, well read or learned than yourself.

Maybe it is because I am ex military but I prefer things to be a little more black and white and like things to be backed up by evidence. To make things clear I don’t know the answers to the questions above but amongst my ex military friends some voted leave and others voted remain. All for their own good reasons.

[waddo]

Waz, I can't give you figures or those vital "statistics" and proof positive that all seem to want. However, of the people who live here on a permanent basis (In the North) and more recently from conversations with people who live on a permanent basis in the RoC, the vast majority seemed to have voted to REMAIN and remain confused as to why the minor majority of UK voters, voted to LEAVE.

For myself I still can not figure out why the UK has voted to become yet another TRNC, in the hopes (because that is all they are) that the future will be brighter for their children and their children's children.

I guess it will all turn out right in the end no matter what anybody thinks, the government will claim it to be a victory and the opposition party will claim it to be a disaster, the public who suffer will blame the government and those few who prosper will praise the government and their own endless hard work - nothing changes in the world really. For sure prises will go up (because they never go down and stay there) in the beginning some products will become more difficult to obtain but life will go on. Yes you will still be able to travel to TRNC and via Turkey nothing for you will change - via the RoC, like the recent experience of the Russian Tourist it may become more problematic - but the UK in general won't care so why should anyone else.

It draws closer to an answer everyday and soon the world will know what is/may going to happen - after that, it is the future and change will happen.

[waz-24-7]

Well aware of what you have posted Waz , please try not to be patronising.

In case I never made it clear, I was specifically referring to EU benefits for ex pats living in the TRNC.

Do you have factual evidence that those U.K. ex pats living in the TRNC who voted in the referendum in the majority voted leave?

Do you have proof that ex military either in the U.K. or as ex pats here in North Cyprus voted in the main to leave or remain?

Did U.K. ex pats living in the ROC in the majority vote remain?

The problem for me with your form of debate is that you continually ignore direct questioning of your comments, this I have mentioned many times. If you don’t like the question or are asked to back it up, more often than not you go off at a tangent. You also post as if everyone should just believe what you post without question whilst suggesting that if they don’t they must somehow either know little about the subject or perhaps are less intelligent, well read or learned than yourself.

Maybe it is because I am ex military but I prefer things to be a little more black and white and like things to be backed up by evidence. To make things clear I don’t know the answers to the questions above but amongst my ex military friends some voted leave and others voted remain. All for their own good reasons.

The benefits of having an EU passport are as I have indicated previously Those following will be clear. Given the already isolated position of the TRNC.
A freedom of movement ticket (ie an EU passport) enables that same isolation to be somewhat diluted. In fact I think that if you investigated. You would find that many indigenous Turkish Cypriots have secured ROC passports, in the main to secure the same freedoms of movement within the Union.

Without a TRNC referendum analysis. No evidence shows the exact break down. However, I believe that by enlarge and given the demographics of ex pats in the TRNC. I am safe to say that I believe the LEAVE ticket is in the majority. Would you agree or not?

With regard to ex service persons. I do think that the background, service and training that persons have secured from military service often creates are right of Centre outlook . I believe that ex service personnel are more likely to have voted LEAVE than for example similar civilian in the blue collar sector. As I have said this is an opinion only and warrants no evidence.

I think Ex pats living in the ROC may have voted along with other EU ex pat communities. I do not know.

I hope this answers your queries as listed.
Regarding my posts. I enjoy the debate with yourself and others that make the effort. Time spent on our computers in debate is stimulating and the investment is rewarding to the mind.

Far better than " the price of effes or petrol or spuds" which is of use to many of course but often secures far less input.
Thank you ALL. You know who you are.

[jofra]

'By and large', the important matter is Efes.......

[waddo]

Waz,

"With regard to ex service persons. I do think that the background, service and training that persons have secured from military service often creates are right of Centre outlook . I believe that ex service personnel are more likely to have voted LEAVE than for example similar civilian in the blue collar sector. As I have said this is an opinion only and warrants no evidence."

Do I take it that you are yourself ex service then? To have formed such an opinion based upon a lack of knowledge of the background of ex service personal alone would be dangerous I feel. I would be interested in what information you have on the service and training that persons have "secured" from military service as well?

As far as I am aware the only way you could form such an opinion on the mindset of ex service personal is to have completed a few years in a military service yourself and of course experienced, first hand, the training, service and backgrounds of all your comrades! But then what would I know, my 25 years and my wife's 24 years of military service obviously led us to vote to leave!!! Shame we both voted to remain.