DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

I'll start you off Erol.

"Although me bringing up that Rees Mogg is a member of the elite isn't off topic, you replying to it is off topic."

I'll leave it to you to re-write with more style

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by turtle »

This is a typical response from a hard left mind set.

Bash Rees-Mogg because he has a few quid,...how about balancing it out with a bit of criticism for some of the filthy rich left leaning remainers....total bias and Hypocrisy beyond belief.

The fact that JRM highlights the ongoing failing of the EU to play by the rules gets praise and support from people who advocate those very issues and is enshrined in their whole political thinking,. I really do have to question if these people are not living on the moon eating green cheese.!

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by kerry 6138 »

LooseBoots wrote:17.4 million voted to leave.

the percentage that won was hardly the majority. Seeing that such lies were used and some people , incorrectly voted on the strength of those lies.

A great percentage voted as a protest.

.
But the election that followed the referendum fought mainly on Brexit , Ukip support collapsed because their supporters aims had been achieved ( so they thought ) and the Liberal Democrats being the main anti Brexit party also fell apart , 82% of the electorate chose to vote for the 2 main parties both with pro Brexit or at least accepting the referendum manifestos.

https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/ ... on-results

https://labour.org.uk/issue/negotiating-brexit/
Labour accepts the referendum result and a Labour government will put the national interest first.

https://www.bbc.com/news/election-2017-39946809
Liberal Democrats key points,
Top of the list 2nd referendum

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by erol »

turtle wrote:This is a typical response from a hard left mind set.

Bash Rees-Mogg because he has a few quid,...
PiD gave his opinion about the personality and character of Mogg. Fair enough and he is entitled to his opinion, no problem and no need to try and 'shut him down' on expressing that opinion. In response to that I give my personal opinion on exactly the same and we get howls of 'hypocrisy' and 'typical hard left response' from a couple of posters. What then am I supposed to do ? Not express, as a response, my own honest and heartfelt opinion ? Can someone explain to me how this is different from shutting down those who support leave with howls of 'racist' that some remainers do use but that I personal do not use and have never used and have publicly condemned ?

I am sorry and I do not wish to be insulting but speaking plainly I think as far as there is a tendency here, on this forum, for people with certain specific views, to 'shut down' people with views different to theirs with 'accusations', then it is not predominately coming from those 'on the left' (or those who voted remain in the referendum). Quite the reverse seems to me to be the case here on this forum, which is ironic give that the 'accusation' being used to shut down people with different views is 'hypocrisy'.

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

turtle wrote:This is a typical response from a hard left mind set.

Bash Rees-Mogg because he has a few quid,...how about balancing it out with a bit of criticism for some of the filthy rich left leaning remainers....total bias and Hypocrisy beyond belief.
I don't think the left's definition of hypocrisy is the same as most.

You don't much harder left than Seamus Milne but I guess when you have had the poor downtrodden background he has...….

People having opinions or positions I don't necessarily agree with I don't have a problem with but when they wish to inflict things on other people but exempt themselves from them, I do.


Obviously the odds on you getting the life of Rees Mogg are high but if you was to get the money then you could. The likes of Milne take no chances, even if you can get there they make sure that ladder has been removed for all but themselves.

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

erol wrote: PiD gave his opinion about the personality and character of Mogg.
Not really, He actually praised his knowledge and questioning technique.
PoshinDevon wrote:
erol wrote:
PoshinDevon wrote: JRM has a great questioning technique, backed up by extensive knowledge of both E.U. and U.K. politics and how things work. His questioning in the first clip IMO exposes many failings.
I think Mogg is a product of his environment of lifelong privilege and advantage. He is for me the very epitome of a member of a ruling 'elite'.
You went personal because let's be honest Rees Mogg is a great target, not many have their childhood nanny canvas for them.

Care to discuss Seamus and try and convince me that he isn't a member of the ruling elite? I could do with a laugh, either you are going to twist like a corkscrew with the off topic bit or try somehow to differentiate between him and Rees Mogg. Either way it's win win,

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by erol »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote: Care to discuss Seamus and try and convince me that he isn't a member of the ruling elite? I could do with a laugh, either you are going to twist like a corkscrew with the off topic bit or try somehow to differentiate between him and Rees Mogg. Either way it's win win,
Absolutely Milne, who had never been mentioned in this thread before you introduced him, is of the same 'elite' background as Mogg. I am not the one making out that 'remain' is the product of 'elites'. I am not the one making out that implementing policies that the person supporting and voting form them is unaffected by is only done by those on the 'left'. I am not the one who is trying to shut down others opinions with constant accusation of hypocrisy.

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by PoshinDevon »

Just want to confirm that I do find JRM a very interesting politician to listen to. Whilst he does come across as an upper class toff, I think that he has the ability to ask the questions that someone on the street would ask. His depth of constitutional knowledge re British politics and its workings is second to none. Plus he has a knack of asking the right questions of the EU about Brexit.

The confidence vote in TM was interesting. Whilst you may not agree with what JRM has to say following the result and could class him as a bad loser, however when he analyses those who voted for TM and brings in those that are on the PMs payroll must vote for her or resign you then realise it was not such a good result. I was not aware of this so learnt something.

For someone in an elite, privileged, ruling class position he must have something the public admire as is borne out by his constituents who vote for him and those that have suggested he will be a PM of the future. I am not sure he has aspirations of such high office but do think he would perform well.

I may be a bit sad but I have enjoyed watching him both in the commons, or out on the streets debating with the public. He can certainly hold his own.
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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

erol wrote: Milne, who had never been mentioned in this thread before you introduced him,
Are we going down the he is a private citizen route and not an MP like Rees Mogg route?
Should the nightmare scenario occur and Corbyn gets in would you deny that Milne will have more influence on the future politics of this country than Rees Mogg could ever dream of?

One is an unashmed Tory who is in the Conservative party one is an unashamed communist who isn't in his natural party.
Let's not go that its tit for tat hypocrisy here, as Samuel L Jackson said it isn't the same ball park it isn't even the same sport.

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by erol »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
erol wrote: Milne, who had never been mentioned in this thread before you introduced him,
Are we going down the he is a private citizen route and not an MP like Rees Mogg route?
No.
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:Should the nightmare scenario occur and Corbyn gets in would you deny that Milne will have more influence on the future politics of this country than Rees Mogg could ever dream of?
I do not know. I do not know what Mogg dreams of but the idea that he could be Prime Minister seems more possible to me than the idea Milne could be but like I say I really do not know.
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:Let's not go that its tit for tat hypocrisy here, as Samuel L Jackson said it isn't the same ball park it isn't even the same sport.
Tit for tat ? PiD gives his opinion of Mogg and I give mine. In response to me expressing my opinion you and turtle start on the whole 'do not bash the rich' and 'hypocrisy of the left' and you introduce Milne in to the discussion and then say to me 'let's not go for this tit for tat hypocrisy' here. From where I am sitting there is one side that is far and away constantly using the 'hypocrisy' card to shut down opinion and it is not my 'side'.

Anyway despite what anyone may think the reason why I enter in to discussions like these is not to convince anyone of anything. I do so because for me the process of trying to write down what I think helps me to better understand why I think what I do and refine my views. Right now it feels like there is little more to be gained for me in continuing with this particular discussion so I will in this season of goodwill to all people, wish everyone a happy xmas and new year.

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by turtle »

erol wrote:
turtle wrote:This is a typical response from a hard left mind set.

Bash Rees-Mogg because he has a few quid,...
PiD gave his opinion about the personality and character of Mogg. Fair enough and he is entitled to his opinion, no problem and no need to try and 'shut him down' on expressing that opinion. In response to that I give my personal opinion on exactly the same and we get howls of 'hypocrisy' and 'typical hard left response' from a couple of posters. What then am I supposed to do ? Not express, as a response, my own honest and heartfelt opinion ? Can someone explain to me how this is different from shutting down those who support leave with howls of 'racist' that some remainers do use but that I personal do not use and have never used and have publicly condemned ?

I am sorry and I do not wish to be insulting but speaking plainly I think as far as there is a tendency here, on this forum, for people with certain specific views, to 'shut down' people with views different to theirs with 'accusations', then it is not predominately coming from those 'on the left' (or those who voted remain in the referendum). Quite the reverse seems to me to be the case here on this forum, which is ironic give that the 'accusation' being used to shut down people with different views is 'hypocrisy'.

Erol

Could I firstly bring to your attention the issue of closing people down,.. You more than anyone on here know my views about that subject both in open debate and privately and was one of the main reasons for not posting for a while.

I find it incredible that you of all people are suggesting such a thing.... having studied your posts for about 12 years now you advocate (and you have no problem telling us) the right and wrongs of life in general especially the politics of the UK & EU and are quick to tell us the failings of the current Government and your love-in with the EU and how honest and fair it is to all then go on to lecture us on how it is fine to agree with that lunatic Verhofstadt to basically say that it is ok for the EU to change its hard and fast rules to suit itself whenever it chooses.

If that is not Being a Hypocrite then perhaps you could explain what it is because I for one haven’t the foggiest what you are on about.

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

erol wrote:
I do not know. I do not know what Mogg dreams of but the idea that he could be Prime Minister seems more possible to me than the idea Milne could be but like I say I really do not know.
Whilst he is an MP and technically has more chance of being PM I think Rees Mogg is all but unelectable as such.

Milne isn't an MP but if we compare him to Alaister Campbell which I don't feel is unfair I would struggle to think of anyone apart from Bliar, Brown and Mandelson, on and off for obvious reasons, that held more power in the last labour government. I don't think Rees Mogg will ever exert that kind of influence except as a noisy back bencher.
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:Let's not go that its tit for tat hypocrisy here, as Samuel L Jackson said it isn't the same ball park it isn't even the same sport.
Tit for tat ? PiD gives his opinion of Mogg and I give mine. In response to me expressing my opinion you and turtle start on the whole 'do not bash the rich' and 'hypocrisy of the left' and you introduce Milne in to the discussion and then say to me 'let's not go for this tit for tat hypocrisy' here. [/quote]

I didn't make myself clear. I meant tit for tat on who of Rees Mogg and Milne is the biggest hypocrite. We both agree that both come from extremely priviliged backgrounds. Rees Mogg might as well wear a sign saying that. Milne has benefited from the same advantages but hasn't rejected them himself, just rejects them on behalf of others.

Putting on a mockney accent doesn't make you less elite but Milne's behaviour certainly makes him more guilty of elitism than Rees Mogg.

Merry Christmas to you too Erol, and have a great 2019 when hopefully you will see the light

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by turtle »

Looks like Mrs May has just hoofed the Meaningful Vote can right into the long grass again.

She's heading for an almighty fall !

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by PoshinDevon »

Corbyn puts forward a motion of No Confidence in the Primeminister.

I think we can all agree that British politics is a bit all over the pace at the moment.

Very difficult to understand whether it’s all to do with Brexit, parties wanting to get into power, MPs looking after their jobs, MPs eyeing up promotion opportunities or stirring for stirrings sake. Sadly I think politics in the U.K. has slumped to an all time low.

Time to get into the festive spirit and do as politicians are doing, stalling and putting things off till the new year. So best wishes to all, have a great Christmas and a happy new year. Thanks to all contributing to the debate, it’s been enlightening, exhausting, frustrating and sometimes very very funny. We may not agree but at least we are not afraid to speak out for what we believe.
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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by waddo »

Thought this interesting - just about sums the whole thing up for me:

https://cyprus-mail.com/2018/12/09/the- ... f-britain/

Merry Christmas to all Europeans for what may just be the last time for a long while to come.
Make happy those who are near and those who are far will come!

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

waddo wrote:Thought this interesting - just about sums the whole thing up for me:

https://cyprus-mail.com/2018/12/09/the- ... f-britain/

Merry Christmas to all Europeans for what may just be the last time for a long while to come.
Sums it up pretty well. Changed your mind on May then?

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by waddo »

No! Best comment I ever read about solicitors applies equally to politicians. What do you call 100 solicitors, in chains, at the bottom of the ocean? A good start! Trust them all not at all.
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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by waz-24-7 »

So now we see the utter chaos and turmoil within the UK Parliament.

How many brexteers saw this type of chaos when they voted to Leave.

At least all parties are unilaterally in agreement that a NO DEAL exit will be catastrophic.

A general election will serve to purpose. Mrs May has won the vote to remain in Power.

I feel there are no other options in negotiating another deal with the Union.

A peoples vote upon the DEAL or REMAIN is a distinct possibility. Failure to meet agreement within parliament is very likely and the people should decide upon the future that is now far more clear than it was 2 years ago.

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by turtle »

[quote="waz-24-7

A peoples vote upon the DEAL or REMAIN is a distinct possibility. Failure to meet agreement within parliament is very likely and the people should decide upon the future that is now far more clear than it was 2 years ago.[/quote]

But the 17.4m leave voters don't want the deal or to remain.....where does that leave us.....a little unfair me thinks.

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by waz-24-7 »

Hello Turtle,
Between a rock and a hard place I fear.

The NO deal is a fearful prospect. I would agree with most that a NO DEAL would be catastrophic to the UK economy and for working people and businesses more so for the UK but also in Europe.

It is certainly the case that the true nature of BREXIT is far more clear. Many people are sick of the turmoil and have little confidence in the governments ability to guide the country through.

Mrs May is taking far too hard a line in my opinion and her defeat yesterday sent her that clear message from all parties. I just cannot see any real betterment of the DEAL. It is very clear that the UK parliament and indeed the EU do not want a no deal BREXIT. EVERYONE is clear on the economic damage to all parties. It is Russia , the USA and other BRIC economies that will capitalize on the new weakness within the UK and Europe.

Brexiteers should look long and hard at options and re think what they hope to achieve from their 2016 vote. I fear it is a lose lose scenario for BREXIT right now. If we go to a peoples vote and the outcome is to REMAIN then the UK will still be weakened but at least we can recover rather quickly and then have a real chance to reform the current European Union. I think the EU will rejoice and pay careful heed to the UK and its desire to reform the Union, its administration and functionality.
For me the further prospect of PEACE in Europe and continued resolve for prosperity and integration, tolerance and co existence is far better a deal than isolationism and xenophobia.

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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waz-24-7 wrote:
Brexiteers should look long and hard at options and re think what they hope to achieve from their 2016 vote. I fear it is a lose lose scenario for BREXIT right now. If we go to a peoples vote and the outcome is to REMAIN then the UK will still be weakened but at least we can recover rather quickly and then have a real chance to reform the current European Union. I think the EU will rejoice and pay careful heed to the UK and its desire to reform the Union, its administration and functionality.
For me the further prospect of PEACE in Europe and continued resolve for prosperity and integration, tolerance and co existence is far better a deal than isolationism and xenophobia.
Haha....still living in the land of Walter Mitty I see.

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

waz-24-7 wrote: How many brexteers saw this type of chaos when they voted to Leave.
At least all parties are unilaterally in agreement that a NO DEAL exit will be catastrophic.
I feel there are no other options in negotiating another deal with the Union.
A peoples vote upon the DEAL or REMAIN is a distinct possibility. Failure to meet agreement within parliament is very likely and the people should decide upon the future that is now far more clear than it was 2 years ago.
Hi Waz you must be thrilled that it looks as if the votes of 17 million people or going to be ignored. How the remainers believe they are on the side of democracy and the brexiters are the fascists would be funny if it wasn’t so frightening.

To quickly cover your points.

Not many, we expected that our government could carry out the wishes of it’s people. It wasn’t a complicated answer to a simple question.

No the brexiters agree a bad deal would be catastrophic. The remainers are doing anything they can to ignore the wishes of its people and the current Labour party will compromise any life-long belief to attain power. Well except Communism of course.

Plenty of options but they haven’t been explored because the EU expect us to roll over at the first sign of trouble.

We had a peoples vote, sorry you missed it. As you did let me catch you up, more people voted for this than have elected a government in decades. It’s just that the status quo don’t like the answer to the question.

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

waz-24-7 wrote: The NO deal is a fearful prospect. I would agree with most that a NO DEAL would be catastrophic to the UK economy and for working people and businesses more so for the UK but also in Europe.
When you say most would that be the same people who said that leaving the ERM in 1992, not joining the Euro, the economists who criticized the 1981 budget or even those that said leaving the Gold Standard back in 1931 would be catastrophic?
waz-24-7 wrote: Many people are sick of the turmoil.
No some are sick that their side didn’t win and the others are sick that what they voted for is getting watered down to be us remaining in the EU in all but name.
waz-24-7 wrote: It is Russia , the USA and other BRIC economies that will capitalize on the new weakness within the UK and Europe.
Why? Because it is smaller? Switzerland do ok. Singapore do ok.
waz-24-7 wrote: Brexiteers should look long and hard at options and re think what they hope to achieve from their 2016 vote.
What we want to achieve is to leave the EU. It isn’t complicated. As for our options, worse-case scenario we trade with the EU under WTO terms. Just like we do with over 100 others countries including China, America, India and Russia. Or in other words the countries who are growing faster than the EU. The EU might decide to withhold Mutual Recognition Agreements from the UK but good luck with that in the WTO courts.
waz-24-7 wrote: Then have a real chance to reform the current European Union. I think the EU will rejoice and pay careful heed to the UK and its desire to reform the Union, its administration and functionality.
Sorry I can’t comment on that because I keep laughing every time I read it.
waz-24-7 wrote: For me the further prospect of PEACE in Europe and continued resolve for prosperity and integration, tolerance and co existence is far better a deal than isolationism and xenophobia.
Still trying the peace card? I wish our Brexit negotiators had your tenacity if nothing else.
Peace in Europe has been down to NATO and fear of nuclear weapons, end of bulletin. If the EU cosying up to the Ukraine was an example of them calming down situations then god help us.

I find it interesting the view that the remainers have that being a member of the EU is somehow less isolationist and xenophobic or lets say the EU is more modern. I personally can't see that tightly binding yourself to your immediate neighbours than seeking out free trade without over regulation in a world that with technology is much smaller is modern and less isolationist.

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by erol »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:Plenty of options but they haven’t been explored because the EU expect us to roll over at the first sign of trouble.
What realistic options are now left ? Options that can get a majority in the house of commons and that implements the referendum vote result ?

No deal - All the evidence suggests that there is a majority in parliament to block this option, that I believe can only be broken as a result of asking the people the specific question 'should the UK leave the EU without a deal'. Without asking the people again it seems clear to me that this option can and will be stopped by Parliament. Or am I wrong ? Do you think Parliament will ultimately just let us default to a no deal exit ?

So what other options are there ?

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by waddo »

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/in ... 63961.html

Interesting! Looks like people, other than myself, have actually been watching the Government and backbenchers who are wasting our taxes. Nothing to do with how people voted in the first place, just trying to find out how high the cliff is that everyone is being forced to jump off.

Did not realise that this had been running for so long but it appears to be taking off in a big way now. Perhaps the NHS could send some hearing aids to No 10 so that the PM could actually hear what people are saying instead of repeating the same old things about not letting down the people who voted! I don't want the government to throw away a country just so they can say - "Well it was the people who wanted it, not us" - and then slink off into the distance.

Monday could be interesting, I just wonder what colour the existing deal will be changed to in an attempt to prove it would work for the benefit of all?
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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by turtle »

IMO No Deal should not be taken off the table... it's the only bargaining chip we have left with the EU.
The inept negotiators have given everything away for little return.

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

erol wrote:
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:Plenty of options but they haven’t been explored because the EU expect us to roll over at the first sign of trouble.
What realistic options are now left ? Options that can get a majority in the house of commons and that implements the referendum vote result ?

No deal - All the evidence suggests that there is a majority in parliament to block this option, that I believe can only be broken as a result of asking the people the specific question 'should the UK leave the EU without a deal'. Without asking the people again it seems clear to me that this option can and will be stopped by Parliament. Or am I wrong ? Do you think Parliament will ultimately just let us default to a no deal exit ?

So what other options are there ?
The main problem is that the negotiations we have had with the EU have been flawed by the fact that they have known that we would never play the no deal card.
When you take your strongest bargaining chip off the table or the nuclear option so to speak then you reduce any chance you have of getting a decent deal or any compromises.
Examples would be having nuclear weapons and assuring your potential enemies that under no circumstances you will use them. Waz likes to bring up the Second World War so lets look at Munich. Hitler rode roughshod over Czechoslovakia because he knew that there was zero option that France and Britain would go to war. If you allow yourself to be weak then you will be bullied. No-one with a foothold in the real world can argue that surely?
Thatcher got our rebate because her domestic position at the time was pretty unassailable. Had May been truly committed to leaving and got a majority in the election she called then our position would be much stronger.

There has been a lot of naivety on both sides. It was naive to think that we could get a better deal outside the EU than we would receive while still in it. Project fear has been ongoing, personally I think the result of a no deal would ultimately be better than staying in the EU or being a fellow traveller like Norway.

For all the publicity the remainers have received with their marches, if we are going to be frightened of anything I would be frightened but what will happen when it is confirmed that millions of peoples wishes are totally and cynically ignored.

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

turtle wrote:IMO No Deal should not be taken off the table... it's the only bargaining chip we have left with the EU.
The inept negotiators have given everything away for little return.
Not sure its the only bargaining chip but it is certainly our most powerful one.
We have to accept that our negotiators, the civil service and politicians aren't terrible good at the game. Maybe we should look elsewhere for a negotiator. The former Australian PM Tony Abbott gets my vote. We've appointed a Canadian, Mark Carney,as Governor of the Bank of England so it's not that zany a thought..

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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The EU is a sinking ship and whilst we might be accused of being rats deserting it, there is no better ship to desert than a sinking one.

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Not sure if anyone has read this but bear in mind it is the Guardian ?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... u-solution

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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turtle wrote:Not sure if anyone has read this but bear in mind it is the Guardian ?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... u-solution
Sounds a lot of hooey and since when was a semi any use to anyone?
If it mentioned devolution I missed it.
How would it work, Wales and Scotland would stay on the sinking ship and England bails them out when they turn into another Greece?
By all means let them vote on independence and if they vote to be independent then they can join Bananarama if they wish.

Or why end there? I want out and Waz wants in so why doesn't Waz pay my share if our net contributions and has to follow all the EU regulations whereas I don't. I of course miss out on all the benefits of membership. I'm sure I'll survive.
Waz can only go on holiday to countries within the EU whereas I go where I like but can only visit the EU with a visa which will take me all of two minutes to fill in as I land.

Could be the wave of the future, you voted for it so you pay. It should at least wipe out at least 90% of the armchair revolutionaries.

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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EnjoyingTheSun wrote:There has been a lot of naivety on both sides. It was naive to think that we could get a better deal outside the EU than we would receive while still in it. Project fear has been ongoing, personally I think the result of a no deal would ultimately be better than staying in the EU or being a fellow traveller like Norway.
And if the only way to get majority parliamentary support for this is to have the people vote explicitly for it in a new referendum ? For me to know that no deal is what we are doing would be better than the current situation .The point is how do we get from where we are right now to it being agreed that no deal is what we are doing ? There seems to be insufficient numbers in parliament to let this happen ? So how else to change that other than by asking that specific question in referendum ?

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by mickhm »

I wish I knew how to copy a post from facebook onto here. I have just seen a speech by David Cameron prior to the 2016 referendum. In it he states that this is a once in a lifetime we vote in or out. The will of the public will not be ignored. It will be decided by the public not by politicians nor goverments or me (D Cameron) but by the public. The re negotian is going on now. there will not be another negotiation to get better terms, there will not be another referendum. this is iy a once in a lifetime choice.
Mick
As I got older I congratulated myself on my tolerance..... Now I realise I just don't give a "ooops"

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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erol wrote:
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:There has been a lot of naivety on both sides. It was naive to think that we could get a better deal outside the EU than we would receive while still in it. Project fear has been ongoing, personally I think the result of a no deal would ultimately be better than staying in the EU or being a fellow traveller like Norway.
And if the only way to get majority parliamentary support for this is to have the people vote explicitly for it in a new referendum ?
We have majority parliamentary support for leaving as in really leaving? Don't think so.

Think we have politicians who patronise us and know what is best for us. We were allowed to vote but voted the wrong way so we will officially be allowed to leave but remain in it for all intents and purposes.

Be interesting to see how many votes UKIP gather when the penny drops that millions of people have been duped. Worrying as they are lurching to the right but will people overlook that to get what they voted for? All of our liberal neighbours are lurching to the far right so it will help with our integration. Lets be honest if the referendum is that cynically brushed over then we can forget democracy anyhow.

If Corbyn's complete about turn on his principles gets him in it will be a moot point anyhow.
Five years of him and McDonnell will leave the country in such a state that even I will want us in the EU as we will be an economic basket case and now qualify for the hand outs. Being governed by the EU will be the lesser of two evils.

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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mickhm wrote:I wish I knew how to copy a post from facebook onto here. I have just seen a speech by David Cameron prior to the 2016 referendum. In it he states that this is a once in a lifetime we vote in or out. The will of the public will not be ignored. It will be decided by the public not by politicians nor goverments or me (D Cameron) but by the public. The re negotian is going on now. there will not be another negotiation to get better terms, there will not be another referendum. this is iy a once in a lifetime choice.
Mick
Don't worry, wasn't it roughly:

"Project fear has worked and all the polls indicate we should just about squeek home with a 52-48 majority. I do not want to hear how small the majority is, a majority is a majority and it is undemocratic to say otherwise.
Once we have a majority to remain you will never be allowed another vote no matter how much the EU changes in the meantime. It is a once in a lifetime vote.
If we should lose I will make a run for it and my successors will keep running project fear and hope that the public don't notice that we haven't actually left the EU. We can rely on the total support of the EU for plan B code name: 'project fear will bells on' if we should need it."

About right?

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by erol »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:We have majority parliamentary support for leaving as in really leaving? Don't think so.

Think we have politicians who patronise us and know what is best for us. We were allowed to vote but voted the wrong way so we will officially be allowed to leave but remain in it for all intents and purposes.

Be interesting to see how many votes UKIP gather when the penny drops that millions of people have been duped. Worrying as they are lurching to the right but will people overlook that to get what they voted for? All of our liberal neighbours are lurching to the far right so it will help with our integration. Lets be honest if the referendum is that cynically brushed over then we can forget democracy anyhow.

If Corbyn's complete about turn on his principles gets him in it will be a moot point anyhow.
Five years of him and McDonnell will leave the country in such a state that even I will want us in the EU as we will be an economic basket case and now qualify for the hand outs. Being governed by the EU will be the lesser of two evils.
So how in practical terms do we move on from here. If parliament refuses to implement the will of the people (at least as you define it) what can be done ? If that is really the case then the only end result there ever could have been is 'no brexit' and I guess more fool anyone for ever believing that any other result was possible.That is how our system works and has worked for centuries. Sovereignty ultimately rests with parliament. So we just wait until we have voted out enough MPs that will not implement the will of the people ? And in the mean time ? Delay ? Cancel ? Is that what you see as a way forward and out of the current situation ? Pontificate if you like but I am interested in what can actually be done. What is worse than a no deal and worse than a bad deal is still not knowing which we will end up with come 29th March or some unknown later date or some other outcome entirely.

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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mickhm wrote:I wish I knew how to copy a post from facebook onto here. I have just seen a speech by David Cameron prior to the 2016 referendum. In it he states that this is a once in a lifetime we vote in or out. The will of the public will not be ignored. It will be decided by the public not by politicians nor goverments or me (D Cameron) but by the public. The re negotian is going on now. there will not be another negotiation to get better terms, there will not be another referendum. this is iy a once in a lifetime choice.
Mick

Mickhm.....well over 100 MPs in the commons are not acting on behalf of the majority of voters in their area. The only thing we can do is bin em at the next opportunity which may or may not be too late ?....That's modern Democracy I'm told.

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

erol wrote:
If parliament refuses to implement the will of the people (at least as you define it)
How would you define a majority of a huge poll?
erol wrote:
What is worse than a no deal and worse than a bad deal is still not knowing which we will end up with come 29th March or some unknown later date or some other outcome entirely.
What we will get is the inertia which is the system of government that appears to be what we have.
Nothing actually improves as we are told it is impossible but we will publicise and spin that everything is better even though anyone with a set of working eyes can see it is not. Come up with complicated non solutions and call anything that might improve things populism or simplistic.
At best that will get you a Trump elected or maybe people will get sick of it all and democracy will be replaced by coups where anyone who can appeal to the silent majority will get enough support to take power.

Bit hacked off and cynical by this whole process.
We are taken into a body without a vote with a minority in favour. Lied to for 40 odd years and when given an opportunity to get out of a body which is failing our vote is ignored.

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by turtle »

Cliff Edge....Catastrophe....Armageddon and any other BS the remainers can come up with,...The boss of WTO thinks a bit differently ?

https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-will- ... RWXi_2vOJI

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

turtle wrote:Cliff Edge....Catastrophe....Armageddon and any other BS the remainers can come up with,...The boss of WTO thinks a bit differently ?

https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-will- ... RWXi_2vOJI
Once out of the EU we will be able to take up our own seat at the WTO and act independently of the EU. Little things that don't get much publicity for some reason

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by waz-24-7 »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
turtle wrote:Cliff Edge....Catastrophe....Armageddon and any other BS the remainers can come up with,...The boss of WTO thinks a bit differently ?

https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-will- ... RWXi_2vOJI
Once out of the EU we will be able to take up our own seat at the WTO and act independently of the EU. Little things that don't get much publicity for some reason

I wish trade with the rest of the world was as easy as that.

Firstly the EU represents almost 70% of offshore trade currently. To tear up that trade deal on 29th March is folly indeed. The rest of the trading world are poised to fill the clear opportunity to fill the void for goods and services once supplied by the UK. Please do not forget the rest of the world compete for trade with the EU just as the UK does or has.

The hit on the UK economy as we scramble to seek new trade deals will be swift and many smaller businesses may well fold as logistics, tariffs and turmoil opens the door for other economies to lap up the voids left by a UK departure from the customs union.


Furthermore,
People and businesses shop and buy local. Why? because its easier and local trade is competitive against distance shopping because of logistics, communication, delivery and availability. Europe is local, The rest of the world is distant in trade terms.

WTO terms are old hat . I think the UK would be the only economy trading under solely WTO terms. Its a rubbish notion that this will be better or a good option against current trade deals.

The government is clearly in turmoil. The current will of the people should be tested against the will over 2 years ago or even 30+ years ago when the common market was on the table. The clear division in Government is echoed within the UK population. politicians on both sides have moved allegiances. Like wise the population has too as true facts, the DEAL and options have emerged from the "wait and see" of past 2 years.

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by waz-24-7 »

turtle wrote:Cliff Edge....Catastrophe....Armageddon and any other BS the remainers can come up with,...The boss of WTO thinks a bit differently ?

https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-will- ... RWXi_2vOJI

Of course he would. It's his job.
Almost the whole world are members and have been since its inception as a promoter of world trade. Its moved on from there now. Almost all the world actively seek trade deals over WTO. Why?
Because trade deals allow a union and commitment to betterment and prosperity within two trading partners with emphasis on the two parties.

If the UK moves to WTO terms then the remainder of the world (not just the EU) are a full lap ahead in the race before the gun goes.
The whole worldd competes for trade not just the UK and EU.

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

waz-24-7 wrote: I wish trade with the rest of the world was as easy as that.
Firstly the EU represents almost 70% of offshore trade currently. To tear up that trade deal on 29th March is folly indeed. The rest of the trading world are poised to fill the clear opportunity to fill the void for goods and services once supplied by the UK. Please do not forget the rest of the world compete for trade with the EU just as the UK does or has.
The hit on the UK economy as we scramble to seek new trade deals will be swift and many smaller businesses may well fold as logistics, tariffs and turmoil opens the door for other economies to lap up the voids left by a UK departure from the customs union.
Furthermore,
People and businesses shop and buy local. Why? because its easier and local trade is competitive against distance shopping because of logistics, communication, delivery and availability. Europe is local, The rest of the world is distant in trade terms.

WTO terms are old hat . I think the UK would be the only economy trading under solely WTO terms. Its a rubbish notion that this will be better or a good option against current trade deals.
Think you have been drinking too much of the EU koolaid Waz, trade actually isn’t as hard as the EU makes it.
What is old hat are the protectionism and over regulation that the EU favours. Since the formation of the Single Market in 1993 the growth rate of our exports to WTO only countries has been 4 times faster than the growth of our exports to the EU.
The UK trades with over 100 countries under WTO rules. America trades with the EU, including us under WTO rules.
EU countries exports to other EU countries is falling because the gains from trade creation within the EU are minor compared with the growth of trade across the world made possible by the GATT agreements on liberalising trade and globalisation.

Once we leave the EU we can take up our seat on the WTO, because we belonged to the EU we weren’t allowed to act as a full member.
You remind me of someone who won’t leave an abusive relationship, “who will hit me if I leave him?”

The UK had an overall trade deficit of £67 billion with the EU in 2017, I’m sure someone around the world will fancy some of that money.
People buy local? Will China and America be further away when we leave the EU?
So apart from pretending the EU saved the Britsh economy or is responsible for World peace or no-one outside of the EU can negotiate a trade deal do you have anything else? Adele’s first two albums were down to the EU? The EU has cured cancer?
Don’t worry the bleating and naivety of the likes of you have helped to pretty much kill us getting out of a dying organisation. Don’t forget to turn a blind eye to our economy slowing down in line with the EU and the inevitable rise of the far right in the UK.

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by turtle »

You beat me to it ETS..

But it is worth noting again that our trade with the EU has dropped and is continuing to decline as years pass even trade the EU does with the rest of the world is declining but I'm sure Waz will give us a perfectly reasoned answer why this is happening.

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

waz-24-7 wrote:
turtle wrote:Cliff Edge....Catastrophe....Armageddon and any other BS the remainers can come up with,...The boss of WTO thinks a bit differently ?

https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-will- ... RWXi_2vOJI

Of course he would. It's his job.
Almost the whole world are members and have been since its inception as a promoter of world trade. Its moved on from there now. Almost all the world actively seek trade deals over WTO. Why?
Because trade deals allow a union and commitment to betterment and prosperity within two trading partners with emphasis on the two parties.

If the UK moves to WTO terms then the remainder of the world (not just the EU) are a full lap ahead in the race before the gun goes.
The whole world competes for trade not just the UK and EU.
Of course only the head of the WTO is biased and the EU are honest and honourable.

Do you think perish the thought that we might be able to get some of these precious trading agreements a little bit quicker without agreeing it with ALL our friends in the EU. You know maybe wrap up an agreement with America in less than 30 years?

I'll try and simplify it for you.
You want to pick a football team to play in and obviously want Messi (Germany) on your team. You are playing say Chelsea so he should prove the difference, after all they haven't got anyone as good as him on their team.
The problem is Messi turns up with nine friends all of which are blind and weigh 47 stone and insists he wont play without them.
Still want Messi? Might it be better having say ten players from Arsenal (insert own joke here) than Messi and his nine fat blind mates?

Take five minutes from drinking the koolaid and read this

http://www.rationaloptimist.com/blog/br ... greements/

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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turtle wrote: I'm sure Waz will give us a perfectly reasoned answer why this is happening.
It will brighten my day when he does.

Will have to make sure I'm not getting my morning caffeine fix when I read such pearls as;
waz-24-7 wrote: I think the EU will rejoice and pay careful heed to the UK and its desire to reform the Union, its administration and functionality.
For me the further prospect of PEACE in Europe and continued resolve for prosperity and integration, tolerance and co existence is far better a deal than isolationism and xenophobia.
I had to change my shirt and dry the table from coffee.

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by waz-24-7 »

turtle wrote:You beat me to it ETS..

But it is worth noting again that our trade with the EU has dropped and is continuing to decline as years pass even trade the EU does with the rest of the world is declining but I'm sure Waz will give us a perfectly reasoned answer why this is happening.
Indeed.
Are you suggesting we close doors upon the EU based upon your take on a declining (very questionable) EU economy? The EU economy just like that of the UK and the rest of the world has its ups and downs. The financial crash of 2008 hit the UK and the world economy. The UK and indeed the EU recovered well and trade between the UK and EU members has recovered well. The free trade status has allows UK businesses to enjoy frictionless trade with the 27.
To forfeit this is even worse than forfeiting your EU passport.

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by waz-24-7 »

ETS,

Your notion that the WTO will solve all the trade woes over the loss of free trade with the Union is rather misplaced.
You may like to ask real UK business their view upon your noble thoughts. I am very certain of their answer.
Is your WTO an overnight fix or can the UK economy hibernate whilst the fix is implemented? Too damn late!!

Having returned very recently from Spain, Germany and Romania. I can assure you that businesses within the EU and the UK are very pessimistic over the whole BREXIT folly and the loss of easy and free trade between us.The EU, taken as a whole is the UK's largest trading partner. In 2017, UK exports to the EU were £274 billion (44% of all UK exports). UK imports from the EU were £341 billion (53% of all UK imports).30 Nov 2018

Furthermore,
Given the rubbish deal that Mrs May proposes OR the crash out without a deal option . I wonder which way you favor?
I suspect CRASH and BURN as possibly all you have to lose is freedom of movement. Others have much much more to lose and this is why the UK parliament and the people are so against the NO DEAL option.

Yes …the people. Time to go back to the people.

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by turtle »

waz-24-7 wrote:
turtle wrote:You beat me to it ETS..

But it is worth noting again that our trade with the EU has dropped and is continuing to decline as years pass even trade the EU does with the rest of the world is declining but I'm sure Waz will give us a perfectly reasoned answer why this is happening.
Indeed.
Are you suggesting we close doors upon the EU based upon your take on a declining (very questionable) EU economy? The EU economy just like that of the UK and the rest of the world has its ups and downs. The financial crash of 2008 hit the UK and the world economy. The UK and indeed the EU recovered well and trade between the UK and EU members has recovered well. The free trade status has allows UK businesses to enjoy frictionless trade with the 27.
To forfeit this is even worse than forfeiting your EU passport.
No I am not suggesting closing any doors what should happen is the EU should act like grown ups and sit down and knock a proper deal together but their headlong into a wall attitude will hurt us both...but they don't care do they. Tell me this what will joining the Euro by 2025 do for your precious business model please tell... https://nordic.businessinsider.com/leak ... 25-2017-5/ Think that might be the end of this so called friction trade you bang on about.

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

waz-24-7 wrote:
The EU, taken as a whole is the UK's largest trading partner. In 2017, UK exports to the EU were £274 billion (44% of all UK exports). UK imports from the EU were £341 billion (53% of all UK imports).30 Nov 2018
Waz will answer it more detail when I get more time re the %s though they are a bit of a self fulfilling prorphesy.

I'm guessing you got your figures from;

https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk ... y/CBP-7851

Did you miss that the percentage of exports had fallen from 55% in 2006 to 44% or left it out deliberately?
A more relevant figure is that in the same period the EU share of Foreign Direct Investment has fallen from 46% to 33% so looks like the world in general is moving on from the EU.

I don't mind if they are honest and say this is a political project and will cost you a shed load of money so vote in or out based on that but to say it is to our economic advantage isn't true.

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