The lisbon treaty - a poll

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Does the Lisbon treaty say the UK has already agreed that the UK must join the Euro by 2022

No I do not believe this
28
78%
Yes I do believe this
2
6%
I care but am not sure if it says this or not
1
3%
I do not care
5
14%
 
Total votes: 36

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Re: The lisbon treaty - a poll

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Post by turtle »

Erol, your deep rooted hatred of anything capitalist and the UK Tory party in particular is alarming to say the least.
In your mind it is all TM's fault no one else just TM or maybe a bit of the ERG's fault along with your fanatical criticism its getting a little tedious now.
I wonder how different it would be if we had a half decent opposition party that actually held the Tories hands to the fire instead of a lame opposition leader who seems unwilling or inept to lead the party and actually stand up and put some credible argument forward that might be a bit more coherent to actually leading a party and putting forward some sensible ideas instead of being starstruck with a picture of the front door of number 10 firmly etched in his hideous mind.
Yes I agree TM has made some monumental cock ups over the last 3 years but are the EU blameless....I don't think so or are the meddling remainers blameless in all this ...definitely not.... at every opportunity they have frustrated the whole process with just one single aim and that is to stop brexit...not to suggest any better deal or way out just to stop Brexit their one and only objective but they get no criticism from your inane ramblings.
You can blame TM all you want but the other 600 odd MPs are as much to blame as her so to "lump the lot" on her is a bit unfair....if a deal had come back from Brussels that ticked every box the remainers would not have accepted it..... Keir Starmer would still stand at the despatch box looking like some retard and rubbish the idea we might do ok out of it so really whatever is suggested it won't be good enough will it !

Before you do your usual dissecting of this post sentence by sentence just try and post some positive answers instead of playing the blame game of the Tories....not once in all these debates have you laid any blame at the EU or opposition's door

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Re: The lisbon treaty - a poll

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turtle wrote:Erol, your deep rooted hatred of anything capitalist and the UK Tory party in particular is alarming to say the least.
In your mind it is all TM's fault no one else just TM or maybe a bit of the ERG's fault along with your fanatical criticism its getting a little tedious now.
Exactly the kind of inevitable 'mis perception' that is all so common when discussions are between people who's only experience of each other is via online text communication only and that are in my experience almost always massively mitigated when people have met face to face as well.

I do not recognised myself in your description of me as having a 'deep rooted hatred of anything capitalist and the Tory party in particular'. Nor do suspect would anyone who had actually met me. I would hope that you might be able consider that I, who has lived inside myself for 50 plus years now, may have a more accurate idea of 'who I am' than you do, having only ever 'know' me through this forum ? Of course I could be a compulsive liar but again I like to think that is not a conclusion anyone who had met me would come to. If I were to try and describe myself in a sentence, a risky exercise at the best of times, which this is not, it would be something like 'that annoying child that never stopped asking why still trapped in the body of a 52 year old man, with a deep rooted suspicion of absolutism.'

I think I ascribe to TM the things I think TM is culpable of and responsible for. It is an opinion. The idea that so much of the mess we are in right now is down to TM putting the needs of her party (does that help at all if I refer to 'her party' rather than 'Tory party' ?) before the needs of the country is not, I would suggest, one that could only be held by someone with a 'deep rooted hatred of the Tory party'. Last night I saw on the news a Tory MP (minster? , former minister ?, so hard to keep up) say pretty much exactly that in the house.

My post that seems to have alarmed you so much, was made in a degree of frustration and maybe it is an example of a bad decision born out of that, I do not know. A frustration born out of your seeming to place blame or more of it on people that have had, for what ever reason, less means and ability to make a difference than those who have. I have for example asked more than once what it is you think, specifically, Yvette Copper has done or not done since the referendum vote, that had she done differently would have led to us being in a place any different to where we are now. I ask not because I seek or hope or want to change your mind. I ask because I would like to understand if possible why, for you, she ranks so high on your 'blame list' because I do not really understand that - which may well be, probably is, down to me but I can not stop the 'why' being in my head. For me I simply incapable of consider someone's blame for something without asking 'what is it I think they should have done or not done differently that would have made a difference'. For me encountering someone who appears able to assign blame to a given individual without asking that question is, jarring, perplexing and causes me 'cognitive dissonance'. I am not saying that is the right way to be or a better way to be than anyone else, just stating that is how I am 'built'.
turtle wrote:I wonder how different it would be if we had a half decent opposition party that actually held the Tories hands to the fire instead of a lame opposition leader who seems unwilling or inept to lead the party and actually stand up and put some credible argument forward that might be a bit more coherent to actually leading a party and putting forward some sensible ideas instead of being starstruck with a picture of the front door of number 10 firmly etched in his hideous mind.
I actually wonder the same, though you may not believe it. I think Labour's part in this tradgi-comedy has been woeful as well and has also been largely driven by party and personal needs that the country. I just do not think they have had the same power that TM has had and thus not the same culpability despite the same level of woeful underwhelming behaviour, at this most critical of times.

At an effort to try and allay if possible some degree of your 'alarm' about me and what you see me to be let me try saying this to you. If I were to imagine a 'fantasy brexit manager' game where my objective were to be to pick a leader least likely to succumb to the temptations of, at this most critical juncture, putting party and person ahead of country, then I would have to say Mrs Thatcher would be my first pick of any British leader I have personal memory of. How is that for someone with a 'deep rooted hatred of the Tories'.
turtle wrote:but are the EU blameless....
Well I think they are blameless for a referendum being called at a stupid time and for no other reason that it was (thought) to be a good thing for the party that did it and I would point out that in my opinion this was almost an exact duplicate of the the Labour party did in 75. I think they are blameless for the way implementing our exit has been carried out so far. I think they are blameless for triggering article 50 in too much of a rush. I think they are blameless for the quality of those we have sent to negotiate on our behalf. If I try and think what I would attribute blame for in this, to the various branches of the 'executive' of the EU, which is not the same thing as the EU in the same way the UK parliament is not the same as the UK, over many many years and changes of 'executive' they have been to 'deaf' and 'disdainful' of the voices and concerns of too many with 'issues' about the way the EU project has evolved and continues to evolve across all of the EU and that has played some part in all this. The again if I am honest I do not think they have done this any worse than our national political executive have done. As badly - sure but worse, no would need some convincing of that.
turtle wrote: or are the meddling remainers blameless in all this ...
Here I just end up struggling to understand what you mean let alone why you think it. Who are the 'meddling remainers' exactly ?
turtle wrote: at every opportunity they have frustrated the whole process with just one single aim and that is to stop brexit...
OK let me say up front I have no doubt that there are some who have been doing that. In 'return' can you honestly say you do not believe there is a single person who voted leave and has the single aim of achieving a no deal exit and nothing else, who has sought to 'game the process' as much as they can to achieve that outcome whilst knowing or just not caring if such a form of exit does not have majority support amongst the people in general ? Honestly ?

It feels like you believe anyone and especially any MP that voted remain can only be and must only be doing what you describe above just because they voted remain. To give you all the possible benefit of the doubt, it seem incomprehensible to me that you actually do think this for that reason but the 'problem' is, if you have ever expressed anything here that made it clear to me that you do not think this, then I have missed it (which is entirely possible).
turtle wrote: not to suggest any better deal or way out just to stop Brexit their one and only objective but they get no criticism from your inane ramblings.
Are you saying suggesting an exit that includes some kind of continuing presence in the or a customs union , is not a valid alternative solution ? That such is just seeking to achieve 'stopping brexit' ? If you are then I would ask (having asked in the past why it is that no one ever has said or considers Turkey to be in the EU in all but name and not had an answer) how does the UK no longer having to pay in to the EU, no longer having to abide by free movement of people, no longer be being bound by EU rules and legislation on any issue or matter not directly related to remaining in a customs union, no longer having any presence in the EU council, EU commission or EU Parliament represent having stopped Brexit ?

As inane as my ramblings may be, they are my ramblings and I think I am entitled to them ?
turtle wrote: You can blame TM all you want but the other 600 odd MPs are as much to blame as her so to "lump the lot" on her is a bit unfair....
Sorry I just fundamentally disagree with you here. If they were all just 600 MP's with the same 'power' as any other, the same ability to make a difference to the outcome then I would not have such a problem. They are not. I blame TM for what I think she is responsible for - using that same 'question' - what do I think she could have done differently that would have led to a different place from where we are now.
turtle wrote: if a deal had come back from Brussels that ticked every box the remainers would not have accepted it.....
I just do not know what you mean by 'ticked all the boxes' ? Do you mean if a deal came back that matched or exceeded the wildest claims of the leave camp as to what is possible, that allowed us to have all the benefits of things like being in the customs union (no need to customs checks and cost and expense etc), without any of the restrictions on who we could do trade deals with, such that the whole of the EU countries would be banned from importing and selling chlorinated chicken (to pick one probably very bad example) but there would be no restriction on the UK doing so then also re-exporting such in to the very EU countries that can not so so themselves - then the remainers as you call them would refuse it ? And what if they did - you think they would have the numbers to stop such a deal ? Really ?

In any case as far as I am one of these perceived remainers in your mind - I have already quite clearly that should May's deal be able to to gain an majority, I could 'accept that' along with an exit date of the (now) 12 April - a deal that is far , far, far from ticking my personal 'boxes. I as someone who voted remain and possibly one of your 'remainers' hell bent on stopping brexit am not that 'one' stopping that deal - the DUP and the ERG are the ones to date who have blocked that deal. Or am I wrong ?
turtle wrote:Before you do your usual dissecting of this post sentence by sentence just try and post some positive answers instead of playing the blame game of the Tories....not once in all these debates have you laid any blame at the EU or opposition's door
I am sorry. I am sincerely doing my utmost best within the limits of my ability to answer and engage with you with as much civility candour and consideration for your position as I can but what I will not do , is be told by you what and how I must do that. For me that is a 'sovereignty' issue.

I consider this to have been or be a 'Tory Brexit' because it just simply is as far as I am concerned and not just because of my 'deep rooted hatred of the Tory party'.

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Re: The lisbon treaty - a poll

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

erol wrote: No what you have got there is a bad case of 'staw man itis'.
Is there a Guardian handbook where you get these phrases? Been going on twitter recently and it’s like [email protected]~k word bingo on there. Trope, weaponised etc etc
erol wrote: Do your homework (or stop lying)
https://www.businessinsider.com/eu-dire ... aw-2011-12
Seems pretty balanced to me, no? Where it’s a made up story it calls it.
BTW if it’s not in the Guardian it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. Still waiting on The Guardian to even mention that story about the kid with the zombie knife. You remember the one, front page everywhere else?
erol wrote: certainly amongst the overwhelming majority (shall we go back to how 'impressive a 52% majority is here) of scientist, not just those that 'make money' from climate change but all of them, the majority who do not as well as almost certainly a majority of the public, be that the EU public or the UK public.
My understanding of science is that it isn’t a majority vote. I’m pretty sure Galileo and Newton weren’t in the majority. Also the often quoted 73% is actually faked but that’s a topic for another time.
As for the general public the whole climate change propaganda is very slickly presented until you dig a little deeper. My favourite is the Nobel Prize winning scientist quotes which is bound to impress anyone. The problem is anyone who worked for the IPCC was claiming they were a Nobel Prize winner to the stage they had to be warned off doing it. But here’s the kicker, The Nobel Prize was the Peace prize nothing to do with science but I guess saying Yasser Arafat or Henry Kissinger’s chauffer says there is climate change doesn’t have the same gravitas.
erol wrote: Again either do your homework or stop lying. The original request by the bottled water company to be allowed to make this claim was submitted to the government body that adjudicates claims of medical benefits of foodstuffs and products. In medical terms drinking water does not stop or treat the causes of dehydration - not those of mild dehydration like sweating, breathing out , basically living or those causes of severe dehydration like kidney conditions - for which drinking water can in fact worsen this cause of dehydration. Yes drinking water can rectify the 'state' of being dehydrated (if the cause of it is normal 'living') but it does not treat the cause of getting in to that state. Yes this is a highly technical distinction but you know what, medicine and governance of medicinal claims is a highly technical field and it was the water company itself that had sought this technical medical determination.
The point is the EU spending their time and our money sorting fly [email protected] from pepper. I have faith in the general public that they don’t believe that bottled water will save you from kidney failure and don’t need the EU to point it out.
erol wrote: The fact remains that the first round of trade negotiations between the EU and the US aimed at securing a comprehensive trade agreement started on 7th July 2013. That the EU had talked to US about trade and trade related issue and set up various bilateral bodies and agreements that were NOT trade deals does not change this fact. I think a French man in government once talked to a US government functionary in 1847 and the word trade was mentioned. So why not go whole hog and claim after 150 years they US and EU have failed to conclude a trade deal ?
Your right I’m sure 60 years after it was first formed the EU sat down in 2013 and thought hey let’s maybe try and get together with the world’s biggest market and see if we can sort something out.
erol wrote: It is impossible to talk and negotiate about 'trade' without talking about 'regulations' and 'standards'.
So the 64,000 dollar question, you don’t believe that the EU over regulates?
BTW the superman cloak warning was an example of how there is no faith that the public have a brain and need EVERYTHING explaining for them and micro managing. Whether it is law or not I have no idea but it wouldn’t surprise me.

If you see Waz see if you can talk him into taking my Swiss Frank and Euro futures bet

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Re: The lisbon treaty - a poll

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

There was a wonderful quote on twitter from a Jeremy Corbyn parody account explaining his trip to Morecombe last Saturday.

"I’m sorry that I can’t be standing with you all on the #PeopesVoteMarch today but I realised I had a prior engagement with some people I agree with."

This is someone who would drop everything to drive to Newcastle to give a pro Hamas speech to 8 men and a dog who couldn't be bothered to talk to 300,000 odd people. Probably the best way of ensuring Brexit would be to vote for Corbyn god help us.

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Re: The lisbon treaty - a poll

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Post by erol »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
erol wrote: No what you have got there is a bad case of 'staw man itis'.
Is there a Guardian handbook where you get these phrases? Been going on twitter recently and it’s like [email protected]~k word bingo on there. Trope, weaponised etc etc
If in the course of a discussion, you put up an 'argument' that I have not made (there is proof that in any UK/US trade deal the UK will be forced to accept ....) and then proceed to 'knock that argument down', what other way is there for me to respond that to protest that is a 'straw man argument'. That, when I do protest, you then move on to 'attacking the person and not their arguments' (is there a guardian handbook etc etc) is to me pretty 'ironic'

These kinds of 'techniques' in the course of public debate are as old as the hills and have been identified, listed and categorised from at least 2000 years before the birth of Christ . They included things like

Diverting the argument to unrelated issues with a red herring (Ignoratio elenchi)
Insulting someone's character (argumentum ad hominem)
Assume the conclusion of an argument, a kind of circular reasoning, also called "begging the question" (petitio principii)
Making jumps in logic (non sequitur)
Identifying a false cause and effect (post hoc ergo propter hoc)
Asserting that everyone agrees (argumentum ad populum, bandwagoning)
Creating a "false dilemma" ("either-or fallacy") in which the situation is oversimplified
Selectively using facts (card-stacking)
Making false or misleading comparisons (false equivalence and false analogy)
Generalizing quickly and sloppily (hasty generalization)

I personally try and do my best to not use such 'techniques' when debating. I do not always succeed but I do make active effort to avoid them. Sometimes when engaging in debate here with you it feels like I am actually involved in some sort of 'exercise' where the objective is seeing how many of the techniques you can use in the least amount of words.
EnjoyingTheSun wrote: https://www.businessinsider.com/eu-dire ... aw-2011-12
Seems pretty balanced to me, no?
No, not to me.
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:BTW if it’s not in the Guardian it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. Still waiting on The Guardian to even mention that story about the kid with the zombie knife. You remember the one, front page everywhere else?
How many of the 'techniques' I listed (copy pasted from wikipedia) do you think you have managed to pack in to those 38 words above ?
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:The point is the EU spending their time and our money sorting fly [email protected] from pepper.
Did the relevant government body go out and pro- actively make this decision ? No they responded to a request by the bottled water industry for a medical determination, and that government body - who's job and function I think is absolutely valid and necessary, did it's job and made the only ruling it could.
EnjoyingTheSun wrote: I have faith in the general public that they don’t believe that bottled water will save you from kidney failure and don’t need the EU to point it out.
Does this not cut both ways ? Do you not have faith that the general public will know that drinking water is one way to alleviate the effects of being in a state of dehydration, unless the water industry is allowed to put on its bottled water that drinking water treats the causes of dehydration ? So what is the 'big deal' here really ?
EnjoyingTheSun wrote: So the 64,000 dollar question, you don’t believe that the EU over regulates?
We have been here before. I believe that all 'government' can and does over regulate at times. Just as it does at times 'under regulate' and or 'regulated ineffectively'. I do not believe that you can have 'government', any government at any level from the smallest to the largest that does not do both. Given this plain and obvious reality that it is just impossible for government to always just and only regulate the 'right amount', which in any case is a matter of opinion, then I would rather they tend to err on 'over' than 'under'. Because over all and in balance the consequences of 'under' can be and some times are catastrophic where as with 'over' there are undoubtedly negative consequences of such but not typically matters of 'life and death'. I can not think of an example where 'over regulation' has led to consequences like those seen in things like Thalidomide to Grenfell or countless other examples.

For me if you want to use the argument that governments 'over regulate' as a reason why we should be outside of the EU, then it would have to be a comparative argument and show that one form of government does this demonstrably worse than another. Otherwise the argument to me seems to be along the lines of 'all government is bad but I can live with that as long as those in government are the same nationality as me but it is intolerable if they included others that are not the same nationality as me.' but without you actually having to say this directly.

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Re: The lisbon treaty - a poll

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According to the EU you can't betray the 6m people who signed a petition but it is OK to betray the 17.4m people who voted (officially) to leave the EU

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/11058 ... kS4goAdDug

Yet more meddling in the leave process.

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Re: The lisbon treaty - a poll

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Post by PoshinDevon »

turtle wrote:According to the EU you can't betray the 6m people who signed a petition but it is OK to betray the 17.4m people who voted (officially) to leave the EU

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/11058 ... kS4goAdDug

Yet more meddling in the leave process.
I saw a videoclip of this..... really crass statement. No respect or thought for the 17.4M. Sadly they keep coming out with them which really does not help .

Guy Verhofstadt has also been spouting off today........

Maybe I should have a thicker skin but it’s these type of comments that really does inflame the situation. As I have said before maybe it’s just a British thing or just the way we think but really these EU politicians just do not help the situation.

I am really trying hard to compromise, but each time I think I am being fair and reasonable these muppets spout up which really makes me think why bother.
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Re: The lisbon treaty - a poll

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Post by PoshinDevon »

So TM has said that if her deal gets thro she will resign and not be part of any ongoing negotiations after the U.K. has left the EU. Of course this is her last throw of the dice to get her deal backed.

I am in no way 100% behind her deal but it’s time to back this deal, the only one on the table and get it voted thro.

If this happens then bring together a cross party team, include business leaders and academics to thrash out the future long term relationship with the EU. We need to leave and respect the result of the referendum.

If not then the mayhem continues.
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Re: The lisbon treaty - a poll

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But will the little windbag in the big chair allow it a third time ?

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Post by PoshinDevon »

turtle wrote:But will the little windbag in the big chair allow it a third time ?
Who knows....but if he doesn’t then I will believe in conspiracy theories!
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Re: The lisbon treaty - a poll

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Or to put it another way if he does allow it..it proves the house have been frustrating Brexit ?

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Re: The lisbon treaty - a poll

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Post by Mowgli597 »

PoshinDevon wrote:............... No respect or thought for the 17.4M......
Naturally enough I keep seeing this figure in the various topics in this forum.

May I ask - what about the 16.1 million people who voted remain? Not a huge amount of difference IMHO.

Are they simply supposed to “Shut up - you lost. Get over it.”? Or are they entitled to continue to express their opinion in whatever way they can?

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Post by PoshinDevon »

Whilst it’s hard for some to accept, the referendum result was to Leave the EU.

I never expected to get the golden chalice and leave the EU with with everything I would have wanted. It’s about compromise. I don’t like the PMs deal but now is the time to just get it thro and start the really hard, serious discussions.

Those that voted remain should also compromise and unfortunately I haven’t seen to much of that over the almost last 3 years. It just seems to me that they will do anything to ensure the referendum result does not happen in any form.

I want to leave and that was the referendum result. I am willing to compromise. Those that want to remain seem hell bent on only one thing, not respecting the referendum result and doing everything to ensure the U.K. does not leave the EU.......there is no compromise there.
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Re: The lisbon treaty - a poll

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PoshinDevon wrote:Whilst it’s hard for some to accept, the referendum result was to Leave the EU.

I never expected to get the golden chalice and leave the EU with with everything I would have wanted. It’s about compromise. I don’t like the PMs deal but now is the time to just get it thro and start the really hard, serious discussions.

Those that voted remain should also compromise and unfortunately I haven’t seen to much of that over the almost last 3 years. It just seems to me that they will do anything to ensure the referendum result does not happen in any form.

I want to leave and that was the referendum result. I am willing to compromise. Those that want to remain seem hell bent on only one thing, not respecting the referendum result and doing everything to ensure the U.K. does not leave the EU.......there is no compromise there.
Hear here.....well said.

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Re: The lisbon treaty - a poll

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Post by erol »

PoshinDevon wrote:Whilst it’s hard for some to accept, the referendum result was to Leave the EU.

I never expected to get the golden chalice and leave the EU with with everything I would have wanted. It’s about compromise. I don’t like the PMs deal but now is the time to just get it thro and start the really hard, serious discussions.

Those that voted remain should also compromise and unfortunately I haven’t seen to much of that over the almost last 3 years. It just seems to me that they will do anything to ensure the referendum result does not happen in any form.

I want to leave and that was the referendum result. I am willing to compromise. Those that want to remain seem hell bent on only one thing, not respecting the referendum result and doing everything to ensure the U.K. does not leave the EU.......there is no compromise there.
OK this post is going to be 'risky'.

I hear what you are saying PiD. Can we 'examine it' using You as an 'example' leave voter and 'me' as an example remain voter ? I have asked that as a question but that of course it what I am going to do anyway.

If we look at a range of possible end results, not May's deal or any of the transition stages but where we end up. There is a 'spectrum' of different end points that we could end up with. Typically described as 'hard and soft'. So lets list those in order of 'hardness' and 'softness'. The 'hardest' end of the spectrum has to be , I think clearly - leaving without a deal and a transition period. The most extreme end of the 'soft' end of the spectrum would revoking article 50 and not leaving at all. I think that is not a contentious claim ? So in between you have leaving with a transition period and ending with a deal that ends with leaving the EU and staying out of a customs union, EFTA (European free trade area) and all other aspects of former EU membership and we just do a trade deal with the EU like Canada has done. Then you have us leaving with a transition period and ending with a deal where we remain in customs union but not a EFTA or any other parts of former EU membership. Then you have transition ending with us in customs union and EFTA but not anything else, lets cal that common market 2.0

So to list them in order along that spectrum - hardest to softest.

1. No deal exit.
2. Canada style.
3. Customs union.
4. Common market 2.0
5. Revoke article 50

Still with me ?

So as I understand it you as someone who voted leave and who has made this point about your personal willingness to compromise and how that compares with 'remainers' would be willing to accept as far as option 2 on the spectrum but no further ? Is that fair ?

I as someone who voted remain, am willing to 'accept' from 5 all the way through to 2 and 1 I would accept if there was a referendum on that specific option and it had majority support.

So in terms of just you and me, would you think it unfair of me if I considered that I , as someone who voted remain, is more willing to compromise than you as someone who voted leave ? Or is there some fundamental flaw in my 'reasoning' that I have missed ?

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Post by PoshinDevon »

Erol

PMs deal is 1 for me...reluctantly

Then the number 1 and 2 on your list......that I think is a good compromise.

I have to include the PMs deal as this is the only one on the table at the moment.

Customs Union as I have said many times is staying in the EU and tied to all that that entails with no influence....I see no reason why the U.K. would want to sign up to this. We have no say in anything and have to comply with everything.

So I have compromised by 1 and 2 on your list .....if you go to 2 as well then we have a deal. That sort of meets in the middle. Revoke A50 ....no way could I accept that. Or of course it’s the PMs deal which I really do believe that it is something to build on and does mean we leave the EU which respects the referendum result.

Will watch and listen to the votes tonight with interest.
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Post by turtle »

Yes a huge fundamental flaw...
We are supposed to be negotiating with the EU and not ourselves so compromise is between us and the EU and no one else.
The vote was won by leave not by leave and we must then pander to remain voters.

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Post by erol »

PoshinDevon wrote:Erol

PMs deal is 1 for me...reluctantly

Then the number 1 and 2 on your list......that I think is a good compromise.

I have to include the PMs deal as this is the only one on the table at the moment.

Customs Union as I have said many times is staying in the EU and tied to all that that entails with no influence....I see no reason why the U.K. would want to sign up to this. We have no say in anything and have to comply with everything.

So I have compromised by 1 and 2 on your list .....if you go to 2 as well then we have a deal. That sort of meets in the middle. Revoke A50 ....no way could I accept that. Or of course it’s the PMs deal which I really do believe that it is something to build on and does mean we leave the EU which respects the referendum result.

Will watch and listen to the votes tonight with interest.
With the utmost respect PiD I feel you have not answered my question, which relates specifically to the point, which you have made quite a few times, that you as a 'leaver' are willing to compromise but you feel that 'remainers' are not willing to do so. So I will try asking once more (and then let it go)
So in terms of just you and me, would you think it unfair of me if I considered that I , as someone who voted remain, is more willing to compromise than you as someone who voted leave ?
Or if it makes it any clearer - we are both willing to compromise but in terms of which of the two of is willing to compromise more, or further from the extreme end or the most, in this singular example of you as a 'leaver' and me as a 'remainer' , I am willing to compromise to a greater degree that you, more than you, further than you willingness to compromise. Would you accept that ?

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Post by erol »

turtle wrote:Yes a huge fundamental flaw...
We are supposed to be negotiating with the EU and not ourselves so compromise is between us and the EU and no one else.
The vote was won by leave not by leave and we must then pander to remain voters.
Erol wrote:If I were to try and describe myself in a sentence, .....with a deep rooted suspicion of absolutism.'
Have to say you are not doing a very good job in my opinion of supporting a narrative that 'leavers are willing to compromise but remainers are not', but then what do I know ?

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Post by PoshinDevon »

The thing is Erol, your compromise is not enough even tho I understand that you may feel it is. Your list from 3 onwards is not really a compromise....revoke A50....a compromise ....how is that a compromise? We don’t leave the EU and the ignore the referendum? Remain in a customs union...a compromise? We stay very very close to the EU, have no say and have to obey there rules. For me that’s a no.

A compromise means meeting in the middle...so for me it’s 1 or 2 on your list or the one you didn’t put down which is the PMs deal.

Meet me at either of the 3 I have suggested ...which you agree is a compromise and we have a deal. You cannot say my choices are not a compromise and then expect me to agree to numbers 3,4,5 on your list.
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But when are you going to realise....Leave won...Remain lost and negotiations should be drawn towards Leave and not stay.

What is the point of having a referendum ...winning it then allowing the losers to take over the negotiations .....madness
But what do i know ?

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Post by turtle »

Brexit is officially delayed..... scandalous.

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Post by erol »

PoshinDevon wrote:The thing is Erol, your compromise is not enough even tho I understand that you may feel it is. Your list from 3 onwards is not really a compromise....revoke A50....a compromise ....how is that a compromise? We don’t leave the EU and the ignore the referendum? Remain in a customs union...a compromise? We stay very very close to the EU, have no say and have to obey there rules. For me that’s a no.

A compromise means meeting in the middle...so for me it’s 1 or 2 on your list or the one you didn’t put down which is the PMs deal.

Meet me at either of the 3 I have suggested ...which you agree is a compromise and we have a deal. You cannot say my choices are not a compromise and then expect me to agree to numbers 3,4,5 on your list.
If you want to 'let this go' then please do I will have no problem with that.

Re TM's deal I did not put it on the list because it is not as I understand it an 'end position' but a stage towards it and again as I understand it the end position it is on the route towards is option 2. However please do put in the list if you like, though I would not know if it goes between 1 and 2 or 2 and 3 but anywhere you like. Also add in as many others 'degrees' along the spectrum as you like. As to 'revoke' not being a compromise, of course it is not and I am not suggesting it is. What I am trying to 'examine' here is how far from our starting optimal positions, as leave voter and remain voter, have each of show willingness to move. No deal is also not a compromise either , it is one end of a spectrum. If there is a 'further' end of that spectrum then please put it in.

Just on the simple basis that there is no option I would not rule at all, in order to get us out of the position we are in right now, though with a 'condition' on the the furthest extreme for me - is that not evidence of a willingness to compromise more ? I do feel that I as a leaver am willing to compromise, as much and even more than you, as a leaver. I say all of this really in the hope you can understand how being told, over and over again, leavers are willing to compromise, remainers are not, is for me very frustrating, in ways similar to the frustration you must feel as well on other issues.

Anyway if you feel you have explained yourself sufficiently on this issue of 'leavers are willing to compromise, remainers are not' (and I thank you sincerely for sharing you thoughts with me and taking the time to 'indulge me') then please do just ignore this post.
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turtle wrote:But when are you going to realise....Leave won...Remain lost and negotiations should be drawn towards Leave and not stay.
What is it I could do that would convince you that I realise 'leave' won the referendum ? Is there anything I could do other than accept that having voted for remain, having 'lost', I no longer have any right to any say at all in how we leave and should just shut the f up ? Or to put it the other way and hypothetically, if the result had been 52-48 the other way would you then accept that you having been on the losing side had no right to any say on 'how' we stayed in the EU, no right to any say in any further integration for example , on the basis that we had a referendum and remain won and it would be madness to then let those who voted leave have a say on how we interact with the EU from that point on ?

Why have any 'opposition' in our political system at all ? Why not say general elections are a 'winner takes all' until the next election and get to sit in the house of commons and pass laws alone ? What point is there for opposition at all ?
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Post by PoshinDevon »

8 indicative votes tonight.

None received a majority to give a clear way forward.

Therefore the only option in my opinion is the PMs deal.

If Brexit is to be delivered then MPs must back the PMs deal, there is no majority for anything else.
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Post by PoshinDevon »

Erol.

You listed 5 options less the PMs deal. I see them as options....not all are compromises.

Revoke A50 is not an option, all it is is that the U.K. does not leave the EU.

Of the options you listed I have agreed to numbers 1 and 2.....all I am saying is that if you wish to compromise then agree to the same. To list your 5 options but want me to select either 3, 4 or 5 because you think I have not compromised is a bit strange.

I think you have listed a few options but are unwilling to say you would go with the first two on your list.

We will not agree and the same as the MPs voting on the 8 indicative votes tonight, they cannot agree a majority on the way forward. So as we stand there is just the PMs deal on the table.

We will have to agree to disagree.
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Post by erol »

PoshinDevon wrote:Therefore the only option in my opinion is the PMs deal.
Once more for the record and before I call it a night , I personally (as a remainer) would accept that as a way forward, given where we are right now. I would ask who is it that is 'stopping' this from happening ? Remainers who can not accept the ref result and only want no exit and nothing else, or the DUP who seem to consider the risks to the Union to be a higher priority for them than brexit / brexit without a customs union / honouring the ref result ? Or to be as fair as I can remainers and the DUP.

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Post by erol »

PoshinDevon wrote:Erol.

You listed 5 options less the PMs deal. I see them as options....not all are compromises.
I tried to create a spectrum - a range of degrees but yeah lets agree to disagree on this one.

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Post by erol »

turtle wrote:But when are you going to realise....Leave won...Remain lost and negotiations should be drawn towards Leave and not stay.

What is the point of having a referendum ...winning it then allowing the losers to take over the negotiations .....madness
But what do i know ?
So here I also have to thank you Turtle for your participation as, given that my 'objective' in participating here has always been to try and understand better, I think I do now understand your position much better and apologies for taking so long for getting there.

I think I understand the whole 'refusal to compromise' thing, from your perspective, much better. For me I have been looking at how far I would be willing to move from my 'starting point' of not wanting us to leave the EU and judging compromise on that basis. I think I understand now that from your perspective none of that matters. For you there is only one indication and binary 'measure' as to if I as someone who voted remain is willing to compromise or not. Either I am willing to accept that having voted on the losing side I therefore should have no say in how we leave and that it should be in the hands only of those who voted leave to argue and decide this, in which case , from your perspective, I have compromised, or I am not willing to accept this, in which case I am not willing to compromise. It also helps me understand, I think, your frustrations with MP's who voted remain as well, which was confusing me so much. Same thing really - unless they also accept that having voted on the losing side means they should now have no say or input in how we leave, they are also refusing to compromise and accept the ref vote and are thwarting the will of the people.

So if am understanding better now then and I suspect I am then I guess all I can say is , we will have to agree to differ on this one.

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Post by PoshinDevon »

I think the crux of the matter is that the referendum result was to Leave the EU.

So that is the start point.......agree that we are leaving the EU.

Then we work on how best to compromise on leaving. This means that revoking A50 or anything that keeps us in the EU should not be on the table.

The compromise is trying to agree how best we leave. I will compromise and go with the PMs deal as I think it important that we do leave and start to get to grips with the next stage of our future relationship with the EU.

Hopefully lessons learnt from the shambles up to now will focus the minds of our politicians. By that I mean for the next stage after we have left, there is a cross party team pulled together of those who wanted to leave and those who wanted to remain, add to the team senior businessmen again a cross section of those who wanted to leave and those who wanted to remain and possibly also add in some academics who could give impartial advice on various scenarios as the negotiations proceed. The mandate must be to forget party politics and all work together.........a pipe dream perhaps? Clearly we cannot just leave it to a select few to sort as that has not worked.
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Post by erol »

PoshinDevon wrote:I think the crux of the matter is that the referendum result was to Leave the EU.

So that is the start point.......agree that we are leaving the EU.
I think I have made it clear repeatedly that I do agree with this. That I have does not seem to stop some from constantly accusing me, either directly, or as a 'generic' remain voter, that I have not.
PoshinDevon wrote:Then we work on how best to compromise on leaving. This means that revoking A50 or anything that keeps us in the EU should not be on the table.
I agree with this. I think the only thing that is leading to revoke being possible at all, even 'discusable' at all, is the failure of those that accept we should leave failing to come to and agree a 'how' we should leave that has 'majority support', either in the house or the country.
PoshinDevon wrote:The compromise is trying to agree how best we leave. I will compromise and go with the PMs deal as I think it important that we do leave and start to get to grips with the next stage of our future relationship with the EU.
And I, as someone who voted to remain will accept any compromise on how we leave at all, with only one thing I would only accept with a 'condition'. That being a no deal exit and the condition being 'that would require a new referendum, not on in or out but on do we leave with a no deal or not'. Yet this does not seem to stop me being accused, either directly, or as a 'generic' leaver, that I am not willing to compromise and am trying to stop brexit.
PoshinDevon wrote:Hopefully lessons learnt from the shambles up to now will focus the minds of our politicians. By that I mean for the next stage after we have left, there is a cross party team pulled together of those who wanted to leave and those who wanted to remain, add to the team senior businessmen again a cross section of those who wanted to leave and those who wanted to remain and possibly also add in some academics who could give impartial advice on various scenarios as the negotiations proceed. The mandate must be to forget party politics and all work together.........a pipe dream perhaps? Clearly we cannot just leave it to a select few to sort as that has not worked.
If this 'group', which I think is an entirely sensible idea and one that for me was obviously needed since the last general election, if the objective was to find ways forward that are in the best interest of the country and not dominated by 'party' considerations, comes to a conclusion that the benefits of remaining in a customs union with the EU outweigh the disadvantages of not being able to unilaterally make trade deals with countries and trading blocks out side of the EU ?

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Post by Geoff1131 »

Erol, i have a lot of respect for you and think you do try to see other peoples views on subjects. But something that you have said to Turtle really has made me think. You say that although you voted to remain ( and that is yours and everybody elses choice ) then that does not mean that you should not question or campaign for your particular viewpoint. Now while i agree that everyone has a right to their own opinion, can i take you back to the first referendum that was held in the UK regarding the EU ?. In that referendum, i voted for the UK to leave the Common market as i did not agree with a lot that was being done. After the result of the vote i spoke to lots of my friends and others and asked them how they voted. Most of them voted as i did to leave, but as we know the result was to stay in. Now i am not sure of the percentage vote at that time but would not think it was a landslide judging by what i was told . But i do not remember the losing side complaining about the result? I do not recall the Government debating if they should comply with the result or considering whether to hold a second referendum to see if the people that voted to stay in the EU really understood what they had voted for. This whole thing has turned into a mess and the UK Government has not come out of this in a very good light.

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Post by erol »

Geoff1131 wrote:Erol, i have a lot of respect for you and think you do try to see other peoples views on subjects. But something that you have said to Turtle really has made me think. You say that although you voted to remain ( and that is yours and everybody elses choice ) then that does not mean that you should not question or campaign for your particular viewpoint. Now while i agree that everyone has a right to their own opinion, can i take you back to the first referendum that was held in the UK regarding the EU ?. In that referendum, i voted for the UK to leave the Common market as i did not agree with a lot that was being done. After the result of the vote i spoke to lots of my friends and others and asked them how they voted. Most of them voted as i did to leave, but as we know the result was to stay in. Now i am not sure of the percentage vote at that time but would not think it was a landslide judging by what i was told . But i do not remember the losing side complaining about the result? I do not recall the Government debating if they should comply with the result or considering whether to hold a second referendum to see if the people that voted to stay in the EU really understood what they had voted for. This whole thing has turned into a mess and the UK Government has not come out of this in a very good light.
Firstly let me thank you for your 'kind words' about me and also thank you for the 'civility' of your post in general.

If we imagine a entirely fictitious person, who voted to leave the EEC in 1975 and feels that since then to the referendum in 2016, because they were on the losing side of that referendum, their views and concerns about the EU have been ignored and discounted for that entire period. Who feels that in effect they lost the right to have any say about EU from 75 onwards because they were on the losing side of that referendum - then I would say , I understand their feeling and agree that they have in effect been treated that way. I think, especially in the hindsight of the position we find ourselves in now, that such was wrong. It should not have happened. Those people (along with everyone else) should have had in my opinion a valid and equal say past that point via say referendums on each and every treaty change past the 75 referendum regardless of how they voted in 75. Or a say via political parties with any chance of holding power that represented their views. But that did not happen. I hope we can 'learn' from that.

To take it one step further, if my entirely fictitious person, were to say to me, 'when I was on the losing side in 75 and had to endure 40 odd years of being ignored and not listened and you showed no signs of caring about that to so now things are reversed, you should have a taste of that medicine and see how you like it' - I would say I find such a 'position' entirely understandable. I think that is a normal understandable and very human reaction, one that I myself could have in similar circumstances.

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Post by Geoff1131 »

Thanks for your reply Erol. I am not bitter, i accepted the result of the referendum although i did not like it. This Google is a wonderful thing. I have just researched the other referendum and a few things surprised me. The Labour party at the time opposed the remain vote , as they were afraid that the EU would rise prices of food etc and keep prices artificially high ( remember the butter and wheat mountains and milk lakes ?? ) rather than buying food from our Commonwealth friends at cheaper prices .

Another interesting point was the area voting differences. Scotland and Northern Ireland were very close to the 52%-48% of the recent referendum but voted the other way. Now Scotland is the major area voting to stay.

Politics eh??? its a funny old game.

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Post by turtle »

erol wrote:
PoshinDevon wrote:I think the crux of the matter is that the referendum result was to Leave the EU.

So that is the start point.......agree that we are leaving the EU.
I think I have made it clear repeatedly that I do agree with this. That I have does not seem to stop some from constantly accusing me, either directly, or as a 'generic' remain voter, that I have not.
PoshinDevon wrote:Then we work on how best to compromise on leaving. This means that revoking A50 or anything that keeps us in the EU should not be on the table.
I agree with this. I think the only thing that is leading to revoke being possible at all, even 'discusable' at all, is the failure of those that accept we should leave failing to come to and agree a 'how' we should leave that has 'majority support', either in the house or the country.
PoshinDevon wrote:The compromise is trying to agree how best we leave. I will compromise and go with the PMs deal as I think it important that we do leave and start to get to grips with the next stage of our future relationship with the EU.


And I, as someone who voted to remain will accept any compromise on how we leave at all, with only one thing I would only accept with a 'condition'. That being a no deal exit and the condition being 'that would require a new referendum, not on in or out but on do we leave with a no deal or not'. Yet this does not seem to stop me being accused, either directly, or as a 'generic' leaver, that I am not willing to compromise and am trying to stop brexit.
PoshinDevon wrote:Hopefully lessons learnt from the shambles up to now will focus the minds of our politicians. By that I mean for the next stage after we have left, there is a cross party team pulled together of those who wanted to leave and those who wanted to remain, add to the team senior businessmen again a cross section of those who wanted to leave and those who wanted to remain and possibly also add in some academics who could give impartial advice on various scenarios as the negotiations proceed. The mandate must be to forget party politics and all work together.........a pipe dream perhaps? Clearly we cannot just leave it to a select few to sort as that has not worked.
If this 'group', which I think is an entirely sensible idea and one that for me was obviously needed since the last general election, if the objective was to find ways forward that are in the best interest of the country and not dominated by 'party' considerations, comes to a conclusion that the benefits of remaining in a customs union with the EU outweigh the disadvantages of not being able to unilaterally make trade deals with countries and trading blocks out side of the EU ?
I am a little confused here??.. You say that people accuse you of being a remainer....well you are aren't you ? and for me you have given little in the way of accepting the fact that we will leave, I criticized Yvette Cooper some time ago and you berated me for doing so yet now you agree that the article 50 should not be extended and taken off the table the very motion YC wanted on the table, you then say you would not accept the "No Deal" option ..ok I can agree with that however as a negotiator surely even you would keep that in your arsenal even if you had no intention of using it have it as a bargaining tool, why would the EU give us anything if we "Guarantee" we would not possibly walk away....strange negotiating tactics to me ?

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Post by erol »

turtle wrote:I am a little confused here??.. You say that people accuse you of being a remainer ....well you are aren't you ?
That I voted remain in the referendum is a fact and I have never hidden that nor do I have any problem with anyone saying I voted remain, because I did. I do have a problem with people saying (directly or indirectly) because I voted remain it also therefore is true and must be true that

1 . I am unwilling to accept that vote result.
2. I am unwilling to compromise on how we might implement that vote (deliver brexit)
3. My only objective is to thwart and over turn and reverse the result of the vote by any means fair or foul.
4. My right to views and opinions on how we can or should deliver brexit were given up by me willingly and knowingly because I voted to remain in 2016

Is that any clearer to you ?
turtle wrote: and for me you have given little in the way of accepting the fact that we will leave,
So saying I would, given the position we are in right now, accept any way forward for delivering brexit other than a no deal exit, is in no way an indication that I accept we will leave ?
turtle wrote: I criticized Yvette Cooper some time ago and you berated me for doing so
If that is what it felt like I did then I apologise. What I was trying to do was understand why you apportioned more blame on her for where we are now than people and groups that have a lot more power and ability and impact on us ending up here that she has had. I think I actually understand now why you do that but I did not when I asked those questions.
turtle wrote: yet now you agree that the article 50 should not be extended and taken off the table the very motion YC wanted on the table,
I have never said this. I have clearly said the only thing I will not accept is a no deal exit. There is no way to avoid that now without article 50 being extended. The reasons why that is just the reality and who is responsible for getting us in to a position where it was impossible to avoid a no deal without article 50 being extended are not me. I have in fact been someone who, since the general election result, has been consistently warning of the dangers of us ending up in a position where it is impossible to avoid a no deal exit without having to extend article 50, as well as the danger of brexit no happening at all, if we were to continue a strategy , that was the one used by TM to date.
turtle wrote:you then say you would not accept the "No Deal" option ..ok I can agree with that however as a negotiator surely even you would keep that in your arsenal even if you had no intention of using it have it as a bargaining tool, why would the EU give us anything if we "Guarantee" we would not possibly walk away....strange negotiating tactics to me ?
In a negotiation a bluff, saying you will do something that you actually will not do, is only of use as 'something in your negotiating arsenal' if the other party believes that the threat will do as much or more damage, has a higher cost, to the party you are negotiating with than you or you can convince them that you are a madman. The 'irony' here is, for me, that one of the reasons why we found ourselves in a position a couple of weeks back (when parliament voted to take no deal off the table), where it became impossible to avoid a no deal exit without asking for an extension of article 50 is exactly because we did try and use this 'negotiating weapon in our arsenal' right up till nearly the very final minute and doing so failed to produce any results of any value.

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Re: The lisbon treaty - a poll

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Post by kerry 6138 »

Geoff1131 wrote:Thanks for your reply Erol. I am not bitter, i accepted the result of the referendum although i did not like it. This Google is a wonderful thing. I have just researched the other referendum and a few things surprised me. The Labour party at the time opposed the remain vote , as they were afraid that the EU would rise prices of food etc and keep prices artificially high ( remember the butter and wheat mountains and milk lakes ?? ) rather than buying food from our Commonwealth friends at cheaper prices .

Another interesting point was the area voting differences. Scotland and Northern Ireland were very close to the 52%-48% of the recent referendum but voted the other way. Now Scotland is the major area voting to stay.

Politics eh??? its a funny old game.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ob6Wv_FPp7w

Enoch Powell's thoughts on the same subject

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Post by erol »

kerry 6138 wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ob6Wv_FPp7w

Enoch Powell's thoughts on the same subject
Very much in line with Tony Ben's as well

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YI6mzHkx3xA

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Post by erol »

am I the only one wondering 'what happened to out politicians' and to wonder who's fault it could be other than ours ?

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Post by erol »

Latest news

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47740158

Boy do things move fast. So meaningful vote 3 will happen on Friday but only on the withdrawal agreement not it and the political deceleration.

Some thoughts.

I do not see how Bercow can claim this is not a significant change from previous 2 votes - so he is out of equation I think.
I am not sure it really changes the 'numbers' but I could be wrong.

If it does get a majority, it seems to me that the chances of ending up with a final result at the end of the transition period (however long that might get delayed), involves some sort of customs union has to have increased I think - not because that is something I 'like' but because of the 'dynamics'. If it does go through then the DUP will get behind customs union option.

I am no fan of the DUP by any means. However their position in this is for me the easiest to understand and no one can doubt or deny the consistency of their position. The line from one DUP member in regards to them possibly abstaining 'The DUP does not abstain on issues of the Union' brought a degree of somewhat grudging respect from me. For them avoiding any chance of there being different arrangements in NI to the rest of the UK is their clear and determined overriding position. No Deal was a preference for them because it created no such risk. In a scenario whereby the withdrawal agreement becomes law, then they have no where else to go but a 'customs union' in terms of avoiding at all costs anything that might lead to differences being created between NI and rest of UK.

Anyway just my 'knee jerk' thoughts to this latest news.

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Post by erol »

am just 'venting' now - apologies in advance

am getting pretty pissed of at 'May withdrawal deal supporting MP's' popping up on TV and saying that 'TM withdrawal has got more support than anything else the house has voted on'. As if the numbers for a vote on a government bill that would become binding, presented for the third time, with May having thrown everything at it including offering to resign and forcing it to the cliff edge is in any way fairly comparable with votes from the house on a non binding first round of an indicative process, in terms of what support there is or might be.

Really just exactly how stupid do such people think I or the British public are ? Also pissed off at the TV interviewer for letting them say such stuff without any challenge at all.

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Can not believe that there are 'murmurs' that TM may try and bring her withdrawal agreement back to the house to vote on for a fourth time !

Am starting to wonder if there is any means by which a private individual citizen could pursue a case against a sitting (maybe) PM for 'criminal negligence' or something similar. Seriously.

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erol wrote:Can not believe that there are 'murmurs' that TM may try and bring her withdrawal agreement back to the house to vote on for a fourth time !

Am starting to wonder if there is any means by which a private individual citizen could pursue a case against a sitting (maybe) PM for 'criminal negligence' or something similar. Seriously.
https://www.gofundme.com/explore-bringi ... negligence

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Post by turtle »

But what crime has she committed ?

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turtle wrote:But what crime has she committed ?
criminal negligence ? to have behaved in such a reckless manner, with the damage to others that such recklessness risks being foreseeable ? I do not know really but if I had a spare £10,000 I would buy the best legal advice to see if such is possible.

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Re: The lisbon treaty - a poll

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Post by turtle »

Labour did more damage to the nation in the 70's....perhaps we should start there.!

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turtle wrote:Labour did more damage to the nation in the 70's....perhaps we should start there.!
nothing to stop you starting your own gofundme appeal

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Post by turtle »

Not a lot of point really....they are all Teflon.

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