turtle wrote:Erol, your deep rooted hatred of anything capitalist and the UK Tory party in particular is alarming to say the least.
In your mind it is all TM's fault no one else just TM or maybe a bit of the ERG's fault along with your fanatical criticism its getting a little tedious now.
Exactly the kind of inevitable 'mis perception' that is all so common when discussions are between people who's only experience of each other is via online text communication only and that are in my experience almost always massively mitigated when people have met face to face as well.
I do not recognised myself in your description of me as having a 'deep rooted hatred of anything capitalist and the Tory party in particular'. Nor do suspect would anyone who had actually met me. I would hope that you might be able consider that I, who has lived inside myself for 50 plus years now, may have a more accurate idea of 'who I am' than you do, having only ever 'know' me through this forum ? Of course I could be a compulsive liar but again I like to think that is not a conclusion anyone who had met me would come to. If I were to try and describe myself in a sentence, a risky exercise at the best of times, which this is not, it would be something like 'that annoying child that never stopped asking why still trapped in the body of a 52 year old man, with a deep rooted suspicion of absolutism.'
I think I ascribe to TM the things I think TM is culpable of and responsible for. It is an opinion. The idea that so much of the mess we are in right now is down to TM putting the needs of her party (does that help at all if I refer to 'her party' rather than 'Tory party' ?) before the needs of the country is not, I would suggest, one that could only be held by someone with a 'deep rooted hatred of the Tory party'. Last night I saw on the news a Tory MP (minster? , former minister ?, so hard to keep up) say pretty much exactly that in the house.
My post that seems to have alarmed you so much, was made in a degree of frustration and maybe it is an example of a bad decision born out of that, I do not know. A frustration born out of your
seeming to place blame or more of it on people that have had, for what ever reason, less means and ability to make a difference than those who have. I have for example asked more than once what it is you think, specifically, Yvette Copper has done or not done since the referendum vote, that had she done differently would have led to us being in a place any different to where we are now. I ask not because I seek or hope or want to change your mind. I ask because I would like to understand if possible why, for you, she ranks so high on your 'blame list' because I do not really understand that - which may well be, probably is, down to me but I can not stop the 'why' being in my head. For me I simply incapable of consider someone's blame for something without asking 'what is it I think they should have done or not done differently that would have made a difference'. For me encountering someone who
appears able to assign blame to a given individual without asking that question is, jarring, perplexing and causes me 'cognitive dissonance'. I am not saying that is the right way to be or a better way to be than anyone else, just stating that is how I am 'built'.
turtle wrote:I wonder how different it would be if we had a half decent opposition party that actually held the Tories hands to the fire instead of a lame opposition leader who seems unwilling or inept to lead the party and actually stand up and put some credible argument forward that might be a bit more coherent to actually leading a party and putting forward some sensible ideas instead of being starstruck with a picture of the front door of number 10 firmly etched in his hideous mind.
I actually wonder the same, though you may not believe it. I think Labour's part in this tradgi-comedy has been woeful as well and has also been largely driven by party and personal needs that the country. I just do not think they have had the same power that TM has had and thus not the same culpability despite the same level of woeful underwhelming behaviour, at this most critical of times.
At an effort to try and allay if possible some degree of your 'alarm' about me and what you see me to be let me try saying this to you. If I were to imagine a 'fantasy brexit manager' game where my objective were to be to pick a leader least likely to succumb to the temptations of, at this most critical juncture, putting party and person ahead of country, then I would have to say Mrs Thatcher would be my first pick of any British leader I have personal memory of. How is that for someone with a 'deep rooted hatred of the Tories'.
turtle wrote:but are the EU blameless....
Well I think they are blameless for a referendum being called at a stupid time and for no other reason that it was (thought) to be a good thing for the party that did it and I would point out that in my opinion this was almost an exact duplicate of the the Labour party did in 75. I think they are blameless for the way implementing our exit has been carried out so far. I think they are blameless for triggering article 50 in too much of a rush. I think they are blameless for the quality of those we have sent to negotiate on our behalf. If I try and think what I would attribute blame for in this, to the various branches of the 'executive' of the EU, which is not the same thing as the EU in the same way the UK parliament is not the same as the UK, over many many years and changes of 'executive' they have been to 'deaf' and 'disdainful' of the voices and concerns of too many with 'issues' about the way the EU project has evolved and continues to evolve across all of the EU and that has played some part in all this. The again if I am honest I do not think they have done this any worse than our national political executive have done. As badly - sure but worse, no would need some convincing of that.
turtle wrote: or are the meddling remainers blameless in all this ...
Here I just end up struggling to understand what you mean let alone why you think it. Who are the 'meddling remainers' exactly ?
turtle wrote: at every opportunity they have frustrated the whole process with just one single aim and that is to stop brexit...
OK let me say up front I have no doubt that there are some who have been doing that. In 'return' can you honestly say you do not believe there is a
single person who voted leave and has the single aim of achieving a no deal exit and nothing else, who has sought to 'game the process' as much as they can to achieve that outcome whilst knowing or just not caring if such a form of exit does not have majority support amongst the people in general ? Honestly ?
It feels like you believe anyone and especially any MP that voted remain can only be and must only be doing what you describe above just because they voted remain. To give you all the possible benefit of the doubt, it seem incomprehensible to me that you actually do think this for that reason but the 'problem' is, if you have ever expressed anything here that made it clear to me that you do not think this, then I have missed it (which is entirely possible).
turtle wrote: not to suggest any better deal or way out just to stop Brexit their one and only objective but they get no criticism from your inane ramblings.
Are you saying suggesting an exit that includes some kind of continuing presence in the or a customs union , is not a valid alternative solution ? That such is just seeking to achieve 'stopping brexit' ? If you are then I would ask (having asked in the past why it is that no one ever has said or considers Turkey to be in the EU in all but name and not had an answer) how does the UK no longer having to pay in to the EU, no longer having to abide by free movement of people, no longer be being bound by EU rules and legislation on any issue or matter not directly related to remaining in a customs union, no longer having any presence in the EU council, EU commission or EU Parliament represent having stopped Brexit ?
As inane as my ramblings may be, they are
my ramblings and I think I am entitled to them ?
turtle wrote: You can blame TM all you want but the other 600 odd MPs are as much to blame as her so to "lump the lot" on her is a bit unfair....
Sorry I just fundamentally disagree with you here. If they were all just 600 MP's with the same 'power' as any other, the same ability to make a difference to the outcome then I would not have such a problem. They are not. I blame TM for what I think she is responsible for - using that same 'question' - what do I think she could have done differently that would have led to a different place from where we are now.
turtle wrote: if a deal had come back from Brussels that ticked every box the remainers would not have accepted it.....
I just do not know what you mean by 'ticked all the boxes' ? Do you mean if a deal came back that matched or exceeded the wildest claims of the leave camp as to what is possible, that allowed us to have all the benefits of things like being in the customs union (no need to customs checks and cost and expense etc), without any of the restrictions on who we could do trade deals with, such that the whole of the EU countries would be banned from importing and selling chlorinated chicken (to pick one probably very bad example) but there would be no restriction on the UK doing so then also re-exporting such in to the very EU countries that can not so so themselves - then the remainers as you call them would refuse it ? And what if they did - you think they would have the numbers to stop such a deal ? Really ?
In any case as far as I am one of these perceived remainers in your mind - I have already quite clearly that should May's deal be able to to gain an majority, I could 'accept that' along with an exit date of the (now) 12 April - a deal that is far , far, far from ticking my personal 'boxes. I as someone who voted remain and possibly one of your 'remainers' hell bent on stopping brexit am not that 'one' stopping that deal - the DUP and the ERG are the ones to date who have blocked that deal. Or am I wrong ?
turtle wrote:Before you do your usual dissecting of this post sentence by sentence just try and post some positive answers instead of playing the blame game of the Tories....not once in all these debates have you laid any blame at the EU or opposition's door
I am sorry. I am sincerely doing my utmost best within the limits of my ability to answer and engage with you with as much civility candour and consideration for your position as I can but what I will not do , is be told by you what and how I must do that. For me that is a 'sovereignty' issue.
I consider this to have been or be a 'Tory Brexit' because it just simply
is as far as I am concerned and not just because of my 'deep rooted hatred of the Tory party'.