Poll - did Cummings break the rules ?

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Did Dominic Cummings break the Governments lock down rules ?

Yes
26
67%
Yes in spirit but not in the letter of the rules
6
15%
No
7
18%
 
Total votes: 39

EnjoyingTheSun
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Re: Poll - did Cummings break the rules ?

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

erol wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 1:04 pm

I think in an environment where an individual does in fact systematically and consistently behave better than some others in a range of ways it is inevitable that those who do not act as well and that also consistently accuse others of acting badly, will end accusing the person of 'giving sermons' or being 'holier than thou' in direct relation to the degree to which the person defends and illustrates how they themselves have in fact not acted as badly as the person making the accusations.
Will you save some of your tears you have shed over this that I might use them as a balm.

The problem I find with a lot of virtue signalers is they enjoy taking a moral position, which is fine each to your own, but while they like to put themself at the peak of the high ground they always want to share the bill or the danger with the likes of me who think it is a lot of naive drivel.

"I don't think Shamima Begum should have her citizenship away and I don't think she presents a significant danger. God aren't I noble. So anyway we need to......"
My view is more, you are a wonderful kind human being, that's obvious, so pop little Shamima in your spare room but if I see her leave your house I'll shoot her. Still keen?

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Re: Poll - did Cummings break the rules ?

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erol wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 1:11 pm

I have offered my opinion that 'mea culpa and contrition' would be a better way to handle this both for the PM and government themselves and for the national interest in terms of chance of people ignoring future guidance.
And the media and the left will pack up their tents and move on?
What planet do you live on?
That is a classic tactic of a pile on, just say sorry.
We have seen people say sorry for very little and then it's leapt on, see, see he admits it, a confession. How did that work out for Tim Hunt?

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Re: Poll - did Cummings break the rules ?

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erol wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 1:14 pm
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 1:07 pm
BTW twitter has moved to phase 2 of the action plan.
BTW and for the record I do not personally use twitter, I do not read twitter feeds and I only know what goes on there when it is reported outside of twitter. I make these personal choices because I think twitter is net damaging to society and diminishes our collective ability to think clearly and properly. I try and be the change I want to see and certainty the change I might bang on about insistently in others.
I wouldn't argue with you as to the damage that twitter can cause but as far as news is concerned sadly it is the future.

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Re: Poll - did Cummings break the rules ?

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Post by erol »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 1:18 pm
The problem I find with a lot of virtue signalers is they enjoy taking a moral position, which is fine each to your own,
The term 'virtual signalling' has some use as shorthand for someone who advocates some kind of virtuous position but who actually lives a life that is is incompatible with that virtuous position to significant or extreme degrees. How ever I do not think it is today it's common usage most of the time. I think it's common usage is as a means of ignoring and invalidating any argument for a virtuous position without having to look at the merits of that argument at all or examine at all if the person making is actually living a life incompatible with that virtuous position. It is imo systematically used as a 'tool' to AVOID issues and avoid having to justify criticism of hypocrisy. I think this is how you (and most others as well) use the term.
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 1:18 pm
but while they like to put themself at the peak of the high ground they always want to share the bill or the danger with the likes of me who think it is a lot of naive drivel.
Just to be clear I do not put myself at any pinnacle of virtue in terms of how I argue and debate here, how much I seek to back my opinions up with actual evidence, how much I try and avoid straw man arguments and ad homiem attack or how much I seek to just post justify a decision or position pre taken because of dogma regardless of evidence. I just put myself further up the slope than you and point out that not only am I further up the slope I also do not complain about such things in others with the same systematic frequency you do.
Last edited by erol on Tue 26 May 2020 1:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Poll - did Cummings break the rules ?

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Post by erol »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 1:26 pm
I wouldn't argue with you as to the damage that twitter can cause but as far as news is concerned sadly it is the future.
It is only the future if many or most people chose to use it. I chose not to because that is the one thing I have total control over. It feels / appears / seems to me that you both chose to use it and slate it and the damage it does ? I do not see how that has any chance of leading to anything useful except maybe giving you a feeling of superiority ?

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Post by erol »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 1:24 pm
And the media and the left will pack up their tents and move on?
What planet do you live on?
That is a classic tactic of a pile on, just say sorry.
We have seen people say sorry for very little and then it's leapt on, see, see he admits it, a confession. How did that work out for Tim Hunt?
Again you are just arguing against things I have never said. I never said that if they were to do what i suggest the media will pack up and move on. I did say I thought if they did what I suggested then the damage to the PM, the government and the nation would be less than it is doing what they have done to date. I still think that. I think it is a pretty simple, understandable, unsophisticated position. Which is probably why you ignore it and instead argue against a position I never actually expressed - namely that if they did as I suggest then the media will pack up and move on.

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Re: Poll - did Cummings break the rules ?

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erol wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 1:34 pm
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 1:18 pm
The problem I find with a lot of virtue signalers is they enjoy taking a moral position, which is fine each to your own,
The term 'virtual signalling' has some use as shorthand for someone who advocates some kind of virtuous position but who actually lives a life that is is incompatible with that virtuous position to significant or extreme degrees. How ever I do not think it is today it's common usage most of the time. I think it's common usage is as a means of ignoring and invalidating any argument for a virtuous position without having to look at the merits of that argument at all or examine at all if the person making is actually living a life incompatible with that virtuous position. It is imo systematically used as a 'tool' to AVOID issues and avoid having to justify criticism of hypocrisy. I think this is how you (and most others as well) use the term.
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 1:18 pm
but while they like to put themself at the peak of the high ground they always want to share the bill or the danger with the likes of me who think it is a lot of naive drivel.
Just to be clear I do not put myself at any pinnacle of virtue in terms of how I argue and debate here, how much I seek to back my opinions up with actual evidence, how much I try and avoid straw man arguments and ad homiem attack or how much I seek to just post justify a decision or position pre taken because of dogma regardless of evidence. I just put myself further up the slope than you and point out that not only am I further up the slope I also do not complain about such things in others withe systematic frequency you do.
In English?

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Re: Poll - did Cummings break the rules ?

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Post by erol »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 1:41 pm
erol wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 1:34 pm
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 1:18 pm
The problem I find with a lot of virtue signalers is they enjoy taking a moral position, which is fine each to your own,
The term 'virtual signalling' has some use as shorthand for someone who advocates some kind of virtuous position but who actually lives a life that is is incompatible with that virtuous position to significant or extreme degrees. How ever I do not think it is today it's common usage most of the time. I think it's common usage is as a means of ignoring and invalidating any argument for a virtuous position without having to look at the merits of that argument at all or examine at all if the person making is actually living a life incompatible with that virtuous position. It is imo systematically used as a 'tool' to AVOID issues and avoid having to justify criticism of hypocrisy. I think this is how you (and most others as well) use the term.
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 1:18 pm
but while they like to put themself at the peak of the high ground they always want to share the bill or the danger with the likes of me who think it is a lot of naive drivel.
Just to be clear I do not put myself at any pinnacle of virtue in terms of how I argue and debate here, how much I seek to back my opinions up with actual evidence, how much I try and avoid straw man arguments and ad homiem attack or how much I seek to just post justify a decision or position pre taken because of dogma regardless of evidence. I just put myself further up the slope than you and point out that not only am I further up the slope I also do not complain about such things in others withe systematic frequency you do.
In English?
What do you not understand ? Am always willing to make effort to be understood better. Give me some clue and Ill oblige. Unless the intent of your reply is to avoid what I am trying to say ?

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Re: Poll - did Cummings break the rules ?

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erol wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 1:41 pm
Again you are just arguing against things I have never said. I never said that if they were to do what i suggest the media will pack up and move on. I did say I thought if they did what I suggested then the damage to the PM, the government and the nation would be less than it is doing what they have done to date. I still think that. I think it is a pretty simple, understandable, unsophisticated position. Which is probably why you ignore it and instead argue against a position I never actually expressed - namely that if they did as I suggest then the media will pack up and move on.
So you have never seen cases where someone apologising has bought on a fresh wave of more vitriol? They are quite common over the last 20 years and I did give you a starter for ten.
It wasn't an accident it was a deliberate act which I'm sure he would repeat so why would he apologise? What purpose would it solve other than to give the pack the confession they are desperate for?

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erol wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 1:44 pm
Unless the intent of your reply is to avoid what I am trying to say ?
In that mass of words I have no idea of your point tbh.

I tell you what life is too short, you are 100% right and also America, UK bad everywhere else good

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Post by erol »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 1:49 pm
erol wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 1:44 pm
Unless the intent of your reply is to avoid what I am trying to say ?
In that mass of words I have no idea of your point tbh.

I tell you what life is too short, you are 100% right and also America, UK bad everywhere else good
If you accusations against me is that I am willing to take atypical time and effort to explain my position, no matter how bad I may be at doing that and that you are not willing to do so and prefer to just revert to simplistic dogma, that is fine with me. Though if you do that whilst also accusing me of reverting to simplistic dogma you may find some push back from me.

I may well in time start a thread on 'virtual signalling' specifically and try again to explain my views and opinions on the term and what it means to me and how I think it is used most commonly.

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Post by erol »

And just to get back to the thread topic. Here is a yougov version of this poll

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/su ... 26/3fb8f/1

you can see the split of votes by region, gender, politics, age and social grade. There is no category in which a majority think he did not break the rules. In every split available a majority think he broke the rules.

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Post by Groucho »

erol wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 11:44 am
Groucho wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 11:32 am
It's a loaded question because you posit within the foregoing text the notion that DC was the architect of the rules... leading to an objection, leading question by the prosecution, objection upheld please rephrase your question by any reasonable judge....
You continue to use and attribute to me terms I have not ever used like 'architect' and 'driving force' and even 'must'. The term I used was 'influential' and I even gave a google definition of that word that was the context in which I used it. You do all this whilst accusing ME of 'loading'. And whilst avoiding the plain and simple and clear point that I was making originally - it is worse if someone involved in making rules breaks them than if someone not involved does so.
Groucho wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 11:32 am
You are not the boss of me, I don't have answer your daft attempts to show me in a bad light simply because I refuse to join your crusade...
Have I ever said I was the boss of you ? Maybe just maybe you feel like you might be being perceived as being in a 'bad light' because of the things you have done and said as much as or more than anything I have done or said ?
Groucho wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 11:32 am
The polls you you seem in such awe of are politically motivated attempts to undermine the Tory leadership, I have no desire to become one of sheep following the lefty shepherd of the populist media influencers.
The motivation for creating the poll may be political, that is not the same things as the poll results being so. All you appear to be saying as I understand it is all those who are not anti brexit, anti tory, anti DC and have expressed the opinion that he did break the rules, are sheep unable to think for themselves and see through either my nefarious intent and shepherding or that of the left wing media's attempts (but never the right wings) but you are not. You are smarter. It is an argument of sorts. Just not one I personally find very compelling.
Another term you used was 'instrumental' which I take to mean culpable... what did you mean?

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Post by erol »

Groucho wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 2:17 pm
Another term you used was 'instrumental' which I take to mean culpable... what did you mean?
Actually that was the only term I used and it was my bad where I said above influential. I am not perfect.

Instrumental was the term I used and I already gave a google definition that matched my use. Here it is again
google wrote:What does instrumental mean? : very important in helping or causing something to happen or be done.
However if you are going to keep using the semantics of that to AVOID the actual point I was making I will retract that term entirely and in hindsight and in light of your problem with it revert to 'involved' and again make my original point.

Someone involved in making rules who then breaks them is different from someone who breaks them who was not involved.

So will you now finally address THIS simple, plain and clear point or just continue to avoid doing so with your accusations about my mendacious intent ? My money is on the later.

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Post by PoshinDevon »

I am enjoying the long rally and mounting the ball back and forth over the net as this debate continues.

Erol,

Not wanting to deviate to far off topic please could you just answer the question below. A quick answer would be fine as I don’t want this to interfere with the main thrust of the debate.

The facts are as below:-

Labour MP Steven Kinnock travelled to his parents' house for a birthday party.

Labour MP Tahir Ali attended a funeral along with 100 other mourners,

Welsh Health Minister Vaughan Gething sat at a picnic table having chips with his family.

All took place during lockdown.

Question: Is it acceptable that these three individuals who all hold public office should not be challenged by the press in the same way that Cummings has been challenged? Also why do you think they are being ingnored by the main stream media?
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Post by Groucho »

erol wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 2:26 pm
Groucho wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 2:17 pm
Another term you used was 'instrumental' which I take to mean culpable... what did you mean?
Actually that was the only term I used and it was my bad where I said above influential. I am not perfect.

Instrumental was the term I used and I already gave a google definition that matched my use. Here it is again
google wrote:What does instrumental mean? : very important in helping or causing something to happen or be done.
However if you are going to keep using the semantics of that to AVOID the actual point I was making I will retract that term entirely and in hindsight and in light of your problem with it revert to 'involved' and again make my original point.

Someone involved in making rules who then breaks them is different from someone who breaks them who was not involved.

So will you now finally address THIS simple, plain and clear point or just continue to avoid doing so with your accusations about my mendacious intent ? My money is on the later.
In that case I would agree that it would seem on the face of it, hypocritical to help formulate rules you expect others to follow and then act in contravention of those rules. As we all know the public hates hypocrites nearly as they hate being told what to do....

Will it materially affect the public's ongoing adherence to the rules? My best guess is no.

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Post by erol »

PoshinDevon wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 2:35 pm
I am enjoying the long rally and mounting the ball back and forth over the net as this debate continues.

Erol,

Not wanting to deviate to far off topic please could you just answer the question below. A quick answer would be fine as I don’t want this to interfere with the main thrust of the debate.

The facts are as below:-

Labour MP Steven Kinnock travelled to his parents' house for a birthday party.

Labour MP Tahir Ali attended a funeral along with 100 other mourners,

Welsh Health Minister Vaughan Gething sat at a picnic table having chips with his family.

All took place during lockdown.

Question: Is it acceptable that these three individuals who all hold public office should not be challenged by the press in the same way that Cummings has been challenged? Also why do you think they are being ingnored by the main stream media?
I think they should have been challenged in the press. I think they were. I think the degree is related to things like 'were they involved in making the rules' and 'did they believe they were infected when they did so'. I think the degree of outrage expressed by the public towards Cummings is greater because of these kind of factors not because of some kind of 'leftist media conspiracy'.

One thing my wife said , that makes much sense to me, in terms of explaining the figures seen in polls (rather than seeking to deny their reality) is that this is not about Cummings or the Government any more, that it has become a form of expression of national grief and mourning for personal loss and sacrifice during this terrible period. That makes a lot of sense to me and explains the 'overwhelming numbers' to a large degree I think.

Finally looking at the yougov poll on 'resignation' there is not a single category breakdown on this poll where 'do not resign' has a majority. Even on the politics split and Con category its 46 % / 46% yes he should / no he should not.

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Post by erol »

Groucho wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 2:43 pm
In that case I would agree that it would seem on the face of it, hypocritical to help formulate rules you expect others to follow and then act in contravention of those rules. As we all know the public hates hypocrites nearly as they hate being told what to do....

Will it materially affect the public's ongoing adherence to the rules? My best guess is no.
Thank you (and finally). Some times I actually like to be proven wrong and this is one such time.

Will it change public's adherence on going ? Who knows. I do not claim to know. I do know several of the governments own experts on this field specifically have expressed concern about this along with some of the governments own MP's. What is clear I think is it has negatively affected Johnson's standing in the eyes of the public at least in the short term.

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Post by PoshinDevon »

erol wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 2:46 pm
PoshinDevon wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 2:35 pm
I am enjoying the long rally and mounting the ball back and forth over the net as this debate continues.

Erol,

Not wanting to deviate to far off topic please could you just answer the question below. A quick answer would be fine as I don’t want this to interfere with the main thrust of the debate.

The facts are as below:-

Labour MP Steven Kinnock travelled to his parents' house for a birthday party.

Labour MP Tahir Ali attended a funeral along with 100 other mourners,

Welsh Health Minister Vaughan Gething sat at a picnic table having chips with his family.

All took place during lockdown.

Question: Is it acceptable that these three individuals who all hold public office should not be challenged by the press in the same way that Cummings has been challenged? Also why do you think they are being ingnored by the main stream media?
I think they should have been challenged in the press. I think they were. I think the degree is related to things like 'were they involved in making the rules' and 'did they believe they were infected when they did so'. I think the degree of outrage expressed by the public towards Cummings is greater because of these kind of factors not because of some kind of 'leftist media conspiracy'.

One thing my wife said , that makes much sense to me, in terms of explaining the figures seen in polls (rather than seeking to deny their reality) is that this is not about Cummings or the Government any more, that it has become a form of expression of national grief and mourning for personal loss and sacrifice during this terrible period. That makes a lot of sense to me and explains the 'overwhelming numbers' to a large degree I think.

Finally looking at the yougov poll on 'resignation' there is not a single category breakdown on this poll where 'do not resign' has a majority. Even on the politics split and Con category its 46 % / 46% yes he should / no he should not.
Thank you Erol.

FWIW, the three MPs were hardly challenged in the press. Compared to the press vitriol against Cummings the challenge against these 3 individuals all who hold public office was hardly more than a mere mosquito bite. Very slightly annoying and gone the next day.

Whether or not someone was “involved” in making the rules or not, should not be the final judgement as to whether they are more or less guilty of a wrongdoing. If we are saying Cummings broke the rules then so did these three and no doubt so did many others. You cannot say “you made the rules and broke them”, so we will hound you mercilessly whilst three others who hold public office and also broke the rules are allowed to be slightly miffed at the press even mentioning it. Also whether the three holding public office believed they were infected or not is also irrelevant. They did not know if they were carrying the virus or not.

On balance; Cummings I believe should have stood down, however so should the three MPs. I still maintain the press have an agenda and this story revolves around more than Cummings’ trip to Durham. To think not is; I believe, being more than a little naive.

Thank you Erol for your thoughts, I will now drop out of the discussions and watch and read with interest further posts.
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Post by frontalman »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 7:41 am
frontalman wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 6:22 am

Westminster is working class too, so is Islington.


Islington used to be and I don’t doubt there are still a few council houses for local colour and to make the middle class lefties feel edgy.
Westminster I only know from driving through it but I would guess the same. It’s position and expense of property will mean that the working class will be driven out.
Flats in Islington can cost between £500k and a million and prices have been very high for at least 20-30 years so I doubt many postman will be living there.
Westminster would be even more expensive.
Corbyn and Thornberry live in Islington you don’t honestly think they would live somewhere working class on the £250k a year they pull in? Lady Nugee living next door to white van man, you that naive? Bet you think Peter Mandelson used to host his cocktail parties in Hartlepool?
No Labour need the safe seats in working class areas but they aren’t going to live there or school their children there. So if a senior Labour Party member lives somewhere you can guarantee its lovely and middle class.
There are many council housing estates in both Islington and Westminster. Cummings lives in Islington, among Corbyn, Thornberry and Blair's old house in Richmond Road. I believe that Cummings lives in Canonbury, next to Highbury - one of the poshest neighbourhoods I know. You want to get your facts straight.

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Post by Mowgli597 »

Contrast and compare:

“Scotland's chief medical officer has resigned after making two trips to her second home during the coronavirus lockdown.

“Dr Catherine Calderwood had apologised for her actions, and initially said she planned to continue in the role.

“She was backed by First Minister Nicola Sturgeon, who said Dr Calderwood had made a mistake but should stay in her job.

“But Dr Calderwood released a statement later on Sunday saying she had quit.

“She said she had done so after speaking again to the first minister, and had agreed with her that the "justifiable focus" on her actions risked distracting from the pandemic response.”

“The scientist whose advice prompted Boris Johnson to lock down Britain [Professor Neil Ferguson] resigned from his Government advisory position on Tuesday night as The Telegraph can reveal he broke social distancing rules to meet his married lover.”

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

frontalman wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 5:04 pm

There are many council housing estates in both Islington and Westminster. Cummings lives in Islington, among Corbyn, Thornberry and Blair's old house in Richmond Road. I believe that Cummings lives in Canonbury, next to Highbury - one of the poshest neighbourhoods I know. You want to get your facts straight.
I can’t see what we are arguing about here tbh you yourself are saying Islington or a fair few parts of it are very affluent.

Islington I know, or used to fairly well, back in the day was more dump than palace but has become more gentrified over the years. Left many a portion of skin on their AstroTurf pitch.
Of course there are council places which people will stay in to their dying day. If I had a council place in Berkeley Square which I was paying £50 a week in rent on you’d need Semtex to get me out of it.

The best and most personal example I can give of the phenomenon of gentrification is Hoxton where I grew up. Without going all four Yorkshireman it was a dump, even the Krays were frightened to visit. Deprivation was rife although personally we did ok. When we moved to Walthamstow my father thought we had moved to the shires which in comparison it probably was.
Hoxton, Shoreditch and those areas had two things going for them. It was near to the City, you could walk to Liverpool Street in half an hour and it was full of derelict warehouses and suchlike which at the time were great places for oiks like me to play in. But those derelict warehouses had good bones and with a bit of tlc could make very swanky flats. So following the example of the Docklands the area got seriously gentrified with yuppies who liked to be near work and bought those lovely and very expensive apartments. Obviously they wont be sending their kids Oliver and Felicity to the local schools as they’d be eaten alive by the locals but yes they technically live in Hoxton. Some live in Dalston, another previous armpit that has been reborn and can come over as very edgy if they wish but in truth they live in a gated bubble.
So it would be more accurate to say Blair, Corbyn, Lady Nugee, Cummings and assorted luvvies reside in Islington they don’t really live there by any stretch.
Hopefully that explains my point better?

As an amusing aside my father had been bought up in the Docklands and it choked him that a place he had clawed his way out of became so posh, he died before Hoxton took off, thankfully although no doubt spinning in his grave. “Do you know how much that council house is worth now? You know how much I could’ve bought it for?”

When his ship used to come in he was always at the airport.

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Mowgli597 wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 5:22 pm

‘The scientist whose advice prompted Boris Johnson to lock down Britain [Professor Neil Ferguson] resigned from his Government advisory position on Tuesday night as The Telegraph can reveal he broke social distancing rules to meet his married lover.”
Slight difference between sorting out childcare and going for a cheeky leg over.

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Post by erol »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 5:36 pm
Mowgli597 wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 5:22 pm

‘The scientist whose advice prompted Boris Johnson to lock down Britain [Professor Neil Ferguson] resigned from his Government advisory position on Tuesday night as The Telegraph can reveal he broke social distancing rules to meet his married lover.”
Slight difference between sorting out childcare and going for a cheeky leg over.
Fair point imo. I also think it is a fair to point out the aspect that is common as well as those that were not. Namely the involvement in breaking rules they had a part in formulating being a determinate factor in resignation. Another commonality is the media 'witch huntery' around both cases much of it driven by partisan politics.

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erol wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 1:58 pm

If you accusations against me is that I am willing to take atypical time and effort to explain my position, no matter how bad I may be at doing that and that you are not willing to do so and prefer to just revert to simplistic dogma, that is fine with me.
Erol, the problem is you kind of think aloud in a post in a kind of ”I could think/say this or on the other hand.....but that’s not to say.....”
I myself pretty much type posts as I would talk which isn’t always ideal either but in a face to face conversation it is easier to clarify/ask wtf are you actually saying, in these posts it is a bit more difficult to. So with your posts I find it hard to follow.
Then I try to break it down and quote you, put my reply in then quote you again and put another reply. You then reply in kind and before you know it we are in War and Peace territory

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Post by Mowgli597 »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 5:36 pm
Slight difference between sorting out childcare and going for a cheeky leg over.
Agreed.

But the Scottish Health Minister resigned because:

“She said she had done so after speaking again to the first minister, and had agreed with her that the ’justifiable focus’ on her actions risked distracting from the pandemic response.

That, I think, is what people find galling about the Cummings episode. His ‘justification’ for his trip sits uneasy with those whom you disparaged somewhat in an earlier response who didn’t travel to arrange childcare if they became ill, or to be with a loved one at the end of their life.

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erol wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 5:51 pm

Fair point imo. I also think it is a fair to point out the aspect that is common as well as those that were not. Namely the involvement in breaking rules they had a part in formulating being a determinate factor in resignation. Another commonality is the media 'witch huntery' around both cases much of it driven by partisan politics.
I wouldn’t argue that but it can’t be overlooked that there is a get Cummings movement that has been running a long time. Let’s say it had been Robert Jenrick who broke the lockdown, a member of the cabinet that his own family couldn’t pick out of a line up. This would have been a story for about an hour.
Don’t get me wrong I understand it, Cummings is feared hence the pile on. I’ve never seen a football team set out to kick their opponent’s weak players out of a game.

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Mowgli597 wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 6:00 pm

That, I think, is what people find galling about the Cummings episode. His ‘justification’ for his trip sits uneasy with those whom you disparaged somewhat in an earlier response who didn’t travel to arrange childcare if they became ill, or to be with a loved one at the end of their life.
My intention wasn’t to disparage them I sympathise with their loss. I simply said their way isn’t my way and I doubt I’d be the only person who said sod the rules in that situation.
I kind of respect those who stoically await their fate it’s almost spiritual but don’t really understand it, personally I like to be more active in deciding mine.

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EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 6:01 pm
=Let’s say it had been Robert Jenrick who broke the lockdown, a member of the cabinet that his own family couldn’t pick out of a line up. This would have been a story for about an hour.
Don’t get me wrong I understand it, Cummings is feared hence the pile on. I’ve never seen a football team set out to kick their opponent’s weak players out of a game.
But isn’t that the whole point? No-one would fuss over a no-name (to get a leg-over or whatever) but with such a high-profile personality as Cummings, like him or loath him, it IS different.

The public, whether we like it or not, are obsessed with such personalities and will see them in a different light from ordinary Joe Soaps.

“Sure if HE can do it then why can’t I?”

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Mowgli597 wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 6:00 pm

But the Scottish Health Minister resigned because:

“She said she had done so after speaking again to the first minister, and had agreed with her that the ’justifiable focus’ on her actions risked distracting from the pandemic response.
You ever heard of her before today? If there is any focus on her it is as a sideline to the Cummings story.
Still it gives her 15 minutes of fame and she can come back in 6 months in another role and live off the noble principled ticket for the rest of her career. Bet she doesn’t give up her seat which if you are that noble you would as how can you represent your constituents when ......

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Mowgli597 wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 6:07 pm

The public, whether we like it or not, are obsessed with such personalities and will see them in a different light from ordinary Joe Soaps.

“Sure if HE can do it then why can’t I?”
Trump is a bit marmite but has a pretty big fan base, reckon many of them been swigging bleach in the last couple of weeks?

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Post by erol »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 5:54 pm
erol wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 1:58 pm

If you accusations against me is that I am willing to take atypical time and effort to explain my position, no matter how bad I may be at doing that and that you are not willing to do so and prefer to just revert to simplistic dogma, that is fine with me.
Erol, the problem is you kind of think aloud in a post in a kind of ”I could think/say this or on the other hand.....but that’s not to say.....”
I myself pretty much type posts as I would talk which isn’t always ideal either but in a face to face conversation it is easier to clarify/ask wtf are you actually saying, in these posts it is a bit more difficult to. So with your posts I find it hard to follow.
Then I try to break it down and quote you, put my reply in then quote you again and put another reply. You then reply in kind and before you know it we are in War and Peace territory
I have never made any claims to being good at expressing myself in text. I do claim that I just try my best with the limited skills I have and always with the intent to try my hardest to both understand what is being said to me and to be understood in return and never with an intent to misunderstand or be misunderstood.

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Post by erol »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 6:01 pm
I wouldn’t argue that but it can’t be overlooked that there is a get Cummings movement that has been running a long time.
I do not deny the reality of this but nor do I think it is reason to just ignore the very clear degree of anger across all divides that his actions and then the subsequent defence of them by the PM and others like Gove et al has and is causing.
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 6:01 pm
Don’t get me wrong I understand it, Cummings is feared hence the pile on.
I understand you understand this I am just not sure you understand why so many people who are NOT opposing fans and indeed considerable numbers who are supporters are so upset by all of this. You seem to still be maintaining that it is all just down to a 'get Cummings just because he is Cummings' brigade leading a bunch of sheep down the path they want them to go and nothing else. I just do not think this is a reflection of reality from what I can see. It is more than just this. Much more imo.

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Re: Poll - did Cummings break the rules ?

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Post by erol »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 6:13 pm
Mowgli597 wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 6:07 pm

The public, whether we like it or not, are obsessed with such personalities and will see them in a different light from ordinary Joe Soaps.

“Sure if HE can do it then why can’t I?”
Trump is a bit marmite but has a pretty big fan base, reckon many of them been swigging bleach in the last couple of weeks?
How many of them are talking Hydroxychloroquine as preventative against covid-19 infection and at what risk ?

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Post by kibsolar1999 »

tbh...
it was said that if you show symptoms or have been in contact with a covid 19 patient.. you must stay at home.
fullstop.
that the son has autism is not an excuse to stray around, he is 4 years old and who, pls, said the son is "vulnerable" ?

to me it looks more that, as his wife was sick, Mr spindoctor had no time to look after his son and therefore he was looking for the parents to do the job.
fullstop.

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Post by PoshinDevon »

At last a real slap down for the gutter press.

Today’s government Coronavirus brief and Matt Hancock was taking no crap. Most of the hacks asking the same old questions about Cummings were given short shrift.

The highlight was the Robert Peston from ITV slap and get back in your box. A real comedy moment which for me has been a long time coming.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/12873 ... c-cummings
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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

kibsolar1999 wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 8:00 pm

that the son has autism is not an excuse to stray around, he is 4 years old and who, pls, said the son is "vulnerable" ?

to me it looks more that, as his wife was sick, Mr spindoctor had no time to look after his son and therefore he was looking for the parents to do the job.
fullstop.
Forgetting the autism, are there any 4 year olds that aren’t vulnerable?

As it is suggested that Mr spin doctor has a big hand in running the country do you think he might be counted as an essential worker?

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Post by Soner »

So, if you ever think that your eyesight is not so good, the best thing to do is to drive your car for half an hour, with family inside, to double check. Pathetic.
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FROM THE DAILY TELEGRAPH 25 May 2020


Keir Starmer's brazen hypocrisy over Cummings is about to backfire
The opposition leader has opened Pandora’s box for his own party

TOM HARWOOD
25 May 2020 • 12:56pm
Tom Harwood

Keir Starmer is, frankly, a brighter man than Corbyn. Initially he demonstrated this by handling the Cummings debacle in a smoother way than his predecessor ever would have done. He stopped short of calling for a head on a plate and instead demanded an inquiry - an altogether more palatable demand, and less of a witch hunt. His initial stance allowed for an enormous degree of political point scoring, while being insulated from making erroneous accusations.

Last night that all changed.

Labour took on a new line and a new, harsher, tone. Instead of asking questions, the leader of the opposition pivoted to demanding the scalp of Dominic Cummings. Pitch forks were sharpened. Attack videos were made. The witch hunt campaign began in earnest.

Whilst this more aggressive strategy, as Corbyn’s used to, collects likes and retweets in droves online, Starmer has now opened up a can of hypocrisy worms that he will not be able to put back with any ease.

It isn’t that long ago that Labour’s Stephen Kinnock drove hundreds of miles to see his elderly parents during lockdown or that one of Labour’s few remaining MPs in County Durham, Kevan Jones, attended a constituents’ birthday party. On both occasions, Keir Starmer of course did nothing.

This new approach smacks bad faith hyper partisanship – exactly the approach the new Labour Leader told the nation he would avoid. Truly gone is the brief window of constructive opposition.

Starmer’s statement yesterday highlighted the tragic cases of people across this country not able to be with their loved ones in their final moments, and of mourners unable to find the closure and shared consolation of funerals. Yet this was the same Keir Starmer who did nothing to reprimand Labour MP Tahir Ali who attended a funeral in his constituency as one of 100 mourners at the start of April. The point scoring partisan double standards over such sensitive matters leaves a truly bitter taste in the mouth.

The statement is even more brazen when you take into account that Dominic Cummings himself was among the many millions of people robbed of being with their loved ones in their final moments. Due to the lockdown Cummings was unable to visit his uncle, whom he was exceptionally close to, through his final days in hospital in London. At the time, Cummings was isolating in Durham.

What a contrast to those Labour MPs who darted about the country for reasons other than safeguarding children with particular needs.

Even viewed under the harshest lens, the case of Dominic Cummings is less than clear cut. MPs like Steve Baker who have called for Cummings to go have spoken about the “spirit” rather than the letter of the rules being broken. This far from the same category of those Labour MPs who actually broke lockdown.

Labour’s Health Secretary in Wales, Vaughn Gething, had a picnic with his family in a park at a time when the Welsh Government he sits in explicitly said “No picnics in the park.” There is no wriggle room there. Keir Starmer of course stayed silent.

Once the guillotine has been dragged out for one person, it rarely works out well for the initial operators.

Labour needs to recognise they can’t cheer on the cancel culture revolution for their political opponents, while ignoring the graver misdeeds of their own. Keir Starmer is opening a pandora’s box of persecution, and it will not discriminate by party. This can’t be one rule for Labour politicians, and another rule for everyone else.
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Re: Poll - did Cummings break the rules ?

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Post by frontalman »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 5:34 pm
frontalman wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 5:04 pm

There are many council housing estates in both Islington and Westminster. Cummings lives in Islington, among Corbyn, Thornberry and Blair's old house in Richmond Road. I believe that Cummings lives in Canonbury, next to Highbury - one of the poshest neighbourhoods I know. You want to get your facts straight.
I can’t see what we are arguing about here tbh you yourself are saying Islington or a fair few parts of it are very affluent.

Islington I know, or used to fairly well, back in the day was more dump than palace but has become more gentrified over the years. Left many a portion of skin on their AstroTurf pitch.
Of course there are council places which people will stay in to their dying day. If I had a council place in Berkeley Square which I was paying £50 a week in rent on you’d need Semtex to get me out of it.

The best and most personal example I can give of the phenomenon of gentrification is Hoxton where I grew up. Without going all four Yorkshireman it was a dump, even the Krays were frightened to visit. Deprivation was rife although personally we did ok. When we moved to Walthamstow my father thought we had moved to the shires which in comparison it probably was.
Hoxton, Shoreditch and those areas had two things going for them. It was near to the City, you could walk to Liverpool Street in half an hour and it was full of derelict warehouses and suchlike which at the time were great places for oiks like me to play in. But those derelict warehouses had good bones and with a bit of tlc could make very swanky flats. So following the example of the Docklands the area got seriously gentrified with yuppies who liked to be near work and bought those lovely and very expensive apartments. Obviously they wont be sending their kids Oliver and Felicity to the local schools as they’d be eaten alive by the locals but yes they technically live in Hoxton. Some live in Dalston, another previous armpit that has been reborn and can come over as very edgy if they wish but in truth they live in a gated bubble.
So it would be more accurate to say Blair, Corbyn, Lady Nugee, Cummings and assorted luvvies reside in Islington they don’t really live there by any stretch.
Hopefully that explains my point better?

As an amusing aside my father had been bought up in the Docklands and it choked him that a place he had clawed his way out of became so posh, he died before Hoxton took off, thankfully although no doubt spinning in his grave. “Do you know how much that council house is worth now? You know how much I could’ve bought it for?”

When his ship used to come in he was always at the airport.
I'm not arguing, but you seemed to be making a point that because he traveled to Durham that he was a champion of the underclasses and people objected to that. Maybe I got that wrong. In a former life I helped hundreds of people buy their council home under Maggie's right-to-buy, didn't stop them being working class. Some people didn't want to buy, because their conscience wouldn't allow through their socialist beliefs. I thought they were daft but I respect them for it. I'm working class and if you are who I now think you are then you could be considered so too. You can take the boy out of Hoxton, but you can't.......................I've only met one person here from Hoxton he has the initials BR. If that's you then you know me too.

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EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 6:11 pm
Mowgli597 wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 6:00 pm

But the Scottish Health Minister resigned because:

“She said she had done so after speaking again to the first minister, and had agreed with her that the ’justifiable focus’ on her actions risked distracting from the pandemic response.
Bet she doesn’t give up her seat which if you are that noble you would as how can you represent your constituents when ......
My apologies. She was not a Minister she was the Chief Medical Officer - a non-elected official.
PoshinDevon wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 11:05 pm
FROM THE DAILY TELEGRAPH 25 May 2920

.....,,.. This can’t be one rule for Labour politicians, and another rule for everyone else.
But it can be one rule for Conservative non-elected “Special Advisers” and another rule for everyone else?

In the case of elected politicians the choice is simple - don’t re-elect them.

But non-elected SPADs are immune (pun intended) unless their appointment is terminated by their political masters - or they do the honourable thing and resign.

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Now tell me it’s not one rule for the hoi-polloi and another rule for Dominic Cummings:

“British health minister Matt Hancock has said he would talk to colleagues about fines imposed on families for breaking lockdown rules, after Mr Cummings received widespread public condemnation for his lockdown travel.” (RTÉ news)

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Post by erol »

PoshinDevon wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 11:05 pm
FROM THE DAILY TELEGRAPH 25 May 2020

TOM HARWOOD
25 May 2020 • 12:56pm
Tom Harwood
Hardly the most 'un partisan' source going . Tom Harwood is the Guido Fawkes activist. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Harwood

Despite what he claims, that there were Labour politicians who committed "graver misdeeds", the vast majority of the public are just not buying this. Even ignoring that none of these people were involved in making the rules, none of them relocated 260 miles when they understood they were infected. None of them took infection across the country from a hot spot area to a rural one with low incidence of the virus. Cummings and his wife did do this. What is more they then took that infection in to a local NHS Hospital, when they could have had one of their nieces that were available and 50 yards away take their nephew to the hospital, the very 'excuse' for going there in the first place which would have not involved taking infection in to a Hospital. To claim that doing this was 'less grave' than what others did is just imo the most blatant of partisan spin politics from one of the single most partisans activists out there , Tom Harwood. I do not think the majority of the British public are buying this spin.

I found this article by Katy Balls, political editor at the Spectator magazine more sober, realistic and less spinny than Mr Harwood's piece.

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/columnists/ ... rt-2865402

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Post by Groucho »

In days gone by, some bright spark would be suggesting that now is a good time to bury some bodies, so what are we and the media not seeing whilst so distracted by this orchestrated storm in teacup that many seem intent on pursuing?

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frontalman wrote:
Wed 27 May 2020 6:17 am

I'm not arguing, but you seemed to be making a point that because he traveled to Durham that he was a champion of the underclasses and people objected to that.
No my point was that Islington is full of left wing politicians and luvvies who are experts on the working class without having met one whereas Durham was the real headline making Labour loss of the red wall. You should be able to put a red rosette on a wheelie bin up there and win. So I can imagine all the Waitrose communists in Islington thinking, Durham, it's so far, it's so working class.
A bit like the story of when the very urbane Peter Mandelson popped up to his very safe seat in Hartlepool and when taken to a fish and chip shop for a photo opportunity tried ordering the mushy peas thinking it was guacamole.
frontalman wrote:
Wed 27 May 2020 6:17 am

Maybe I got that wrong. In a former life I helped hundreds of people buy their council home under Maggie's right-to-buy, didn't stop them being working class.
Not an unflawed scheme but it really gave people a fantastic break in life. Labour would never create a scheme like that because they want to keep working class people state dependent and struggling.
frontalman wrote:
Wed 27 May 2020 6:17 am
Some people didn't want to buy, because their conscience wouldn't allow through their socialist beliefs. I thought they were daft but I respect them for it.
Some working class people are a bit thick and very short of vision. They will earn £200 a week and the council rent is £5 but to them why buy it and take a mortgage out because I'm now paying £7 a week? I had conversations like that with people.
So I guess some didn't buy because it didn't gel with their socialist ideals but a lot didn't buy because it meant they might have to downgrade their holiday this year and after all the house is ours for life. There were a fair few print workers in Hoxton who even in the early 70s were earning hundreds of pounds a week. They really didn't need subsidised rent. Not all working class people are these noble savages that the left make them out to be. They are as clever or stupid as grafting or lazy as anyone else. Ditto BAME people.
True many don't get the opportunities that some get but when they do get a fantastic opportunity such as buy your £100k house for a tenner they don't take it. Personally I don't like to walk to the pace of the slowest which is why Labour doesn't appeal.
frontalman wrote:
Wed 27 May 2020 6:17 am

You can take the boy out of Hoxton, but you can't.......................I've only met one person here from Hoxton he has the initials BR. If that's you then you know me too.
The schools weren't up to much but by and large I learnt more there about life there then anywhere else I've lived. By 10 I pretty much knew every con there was.
Like I say personally we did ok but most of my friends had the arse hanging out of their trousers, there was nothing relative about their poverty. So when you used to get well scrubbed people come down every 4 or 5 years with a mockney accent nervously visit telling you they were our people yes you did look at them somewhat cynically so that has never worn off.

Checked all my passports and definitely not got one with the initials BR ;)

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Re: Poll - did Cummings break the rules ?

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Soner wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 11:02 pm
So, if you ever think that your eyesight is not so good, the best thing to do is to drive your car for half an hour, with family inside, to double check. Pathetic.
That sounded total bollox tbh but suck it up it looks like he is staying. :+1:)

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Re: Poll - did Cummings break the rules ?

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erol wrote:
Wed 27 May 2020 7:02 am

Hardly the most 'un partisan' source going . Tom Harwood is the Guido Fawkes activist. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Harwood
Rule 7 if you can't attack the message attack the messenger.
"So you agree it is dark at night because that well know paedophile Jimmy Saville said good evening and it appeared to be dark through the window?"


Rule 8 is a variation, EG:

"So you are a vegetarian, did you start to stop eating meat after following the writing of......... ADOLF HITLER."

Like I said this was all fresh in 2015, people hadn't read Alinsky in years, but we learnt the game it's getting a bit dated and transparent now.

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Re: Poll - did Cummings break the rules ?

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Mowgli597 wrote:
Wed 27 May 2020 6:19 am

My apologies. She was not a Minister she was the Chief Medical Officer - a non-elected official.
Don't worry Mowgli she will be earning six figures in a made up job who's point isn't obvious as soon as her gardening leave is up.
Check in with her progress in 3 months if she is on her uppers start an appeal, I promise to contribute. Do give details not just her name as I've forgotten it already

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Re: Poll - did Cummings break the rules ?

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Groucho wrote:
Wed 27 May 2020 8:17 am
In days gone by, some bright spark would be suggesting that now is a good time to bury some bodies, so what are we and the media not seeing whilst so distracted by this orchestrated storm in teacup that many seem intent on pursuing?
It seems that they must have been doing a root and branch review of Dominic's private life over the last few years. If this is all they can come up with then personally I'd sack him for being so dull.

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Re: Poll - did Cummings break the rules ?

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Post by PoshinDevon »

Soner wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 11:02 pm
So, if you ever think that your eyesight is not so good, the best thing to do is to drive your car for half an hour, with family inside, to double check. Pathetic.
Agree Soner.

There were some parts of Cummings statement that on a human level I could relate to. As a parent and father I am sure he was trying to do what he thought best at the time. Cummings also had concerns for the security of the family, something I had not considered relevant. However having seen some of the disgusting scenes outside his property inflamed by the press and taken up by members of then public I would agree with him. I can also understand that he and members of the government were under huge pressure so this may well have affected his judgement.

However; the drive to test out his eyesight was complete hogwash and was never going to stand scrutiny.
Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass,it's about learning to dance in the rain

Peterborough Utd -The Posh

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