UK foreign aid budget to be cut. Yessss

[Wines Of The World]

THEN ITS FAIR TO ADD Nearly 90% of those convicted of child abuse offences and on the sex offenders register are CHRISTIAN/ MAINLY PROTESTANT white men and not just whete men. Similarly the son of the Defender of the Protestant Faith is has allegedly had sexual relations with underage girls...Definately a better way of broadcasting news.
Out of curiosity, why live in a muslim country?

If the last part of your post is directed towards me,i live in Cyprus which is not a Muslim country,so forget that nonsense as your argument!

And by the way,not all Muslims are sexual preditors or groomers.

And yes Christians, Catholics, in fact the catholic church is the filthiest of the lot in my opinion,the vatican has spent millions trying to hide its crimes against children.
And yes i believe your stats of 90% convicted are white men,but no one jumps up and down and makes a huge fuss when a white christian man is described as a rapist or sex offender.

[AFC]

The practicing faith in North Cyrpus is Islam, I' sure if you open your windows you are able to hear that five times a day!

On your final point no one makes a fuss as when a white perpertrator commits a sexual or any other form of crime, he or she is not described as a "White anglo saxon christain male/ female". They are simply identified by their name age and if they are married have kids etc. Fath or ethnicity has never been used to describe them simply because by doing so you are creating a link between their crime and their ethnicity or faith.

Neither of these aspects is related to the crime unless you are implying their faith or colour makes the crime unique to them. So to describe the men as Muslim is not in line with how others are described and as such inherently racist.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

THEN ITS FAIR TO ADD Nearly 90% of those convicted of child abuse offences and on the sex offenders register are CHRISTIAN/ MAINLY PROTESTANT white men and not just whete men. Similarly the son of the Defender of the Protestant Faith is has allegedly had sexual relations with underage girls...Definately a better way of broadcasting news.
Out of curiosity, why live in a muslim country?

Im not excusing Prince Andrew but my understanding is the girl he is accused of having sexual relations with is 17? Still sleazy but not 12-15 and 17 would be legal in the U.K. Also he is accused not been found guilty. As for the majority of those on the sex offenders list I would ask what are the relative numbers for organised gangs which does seem to have become more prevalent in recent years

[EnjoyingTheSun]

Fath or ethnicity has never been used to describe them simply because by doing so you are creating a link between their crime and their ethnicity or faith.

Neither of these aspects is related to the crime unless you are implying their faith or colour makes the crime unique to them. So to describe the men as Muslim is not in line with how others are described and as such inherently racist.

Do you not think there seems to be a problem with child grooming gangs and that it does seem to be grouped in one particular demographic? Unless you just want to ignore the problem or pretend it doesn’t exist?

[Wines Of The World]

THEN ITS FAIR TO ADD Nearly 90% of those convicted of child abuse offences and on the sex offenders register are CHRISTIAN/ MAINLY PROTESTANT white men and not just whete men. Similarly the son of the Defender of the Protestant Faith is has allegedly had sexual relations with underage girls...Definately a better way of broadcasting news.
Out of curiosity, why live in a muslim country?

[Wines Of The World]

The practicing faith in North Cyrpus is Islam, I' sure if you open your windows you are able to hear that five times a day!

On your final point no one makes a fuss as when a white perpertrator commits a sexual or any other form of crime, he or she is not described as a "White anglo saxon christain male/ female". They are simply identified by their name age and if they are married have kids etc. Fath or ethnicity has never been used to describe them simply because by doing so you are creating a link between their crime and their ethnicity or faith.

Neither of these aspects is related to the crime unless you are implying their faith or colour makes the crime unique to them. So to describe the men as Muslim is not in line with how others are described and as such inherently racist.

Yes grooming is unique to Muslim pakistani men. Unique in the fact that where a white child abuser chooses his prey and abuses it,and the white Christian ,catholic abuser usually chooses a white victim.
The Muslim Pakistani groomer 99.9 % of the time targets underage white girls and grooms them and then passes them around his friends or group of abusers.
I do not believe you as possibly a leftist snowflake knows to much about Pakistani Muslim groomers. I saw them in action first hand from the 1970s but never realised or understood what was going on and in them days as a young lad would just say ohh its those nasty girls again or runaways or from the orphanage etc. In actual fact those poor girls had been trafficked to the areas i saw them .

You or anyone else will never ever in a million years sideline me from describing these animals as i do, Muslims isn't a religion, Islam is the religion that Muslims follow. Those Muslims could be Pakistani, indian, bangladeshi etc, so this is why the correct description should always be used. And in this case PAKISTANI MUSLIMS.
Again a dog born in a stable is not a horse.
Why are you worried or defend an abuser, shouldn't you be thinking of the victim not the description ? Police would normally ask for a description, mine would not contain the word ASIAN.
If the way i describe a rapist makes me a Racist. Welocme to tag me as a racist, this word will never close me down, I'm not your average joe in the street who is afraid to be labelled a racist.
noting the ethnicity of child grooming gangs is very important

[Wines Of The World]

The practicing faith in North Cyrpus is Islam, I' sure if you open your windows you are able to hear that five times a day!

On your final point no one makes a fuss as when a white perpertrator commits a sexual or any other form of crime, he or she is not described as a "White anglo saxon christain male/ female". They are simply identified by their name age and if they are married have kids etc. Fath or ethnicity has never been used to describe them simply because by doing so you are creating a link between their crime and their ethnicity or faith.

Neither of these aspects is related to the crime unless you are implying their faith or colour makes the crime unique to them. So to describe the men as Muslim is not in line with how others are described and as such inherently racist.

Im a bit deaf .

Who cares where i live.

I live where i want and living somewhere wont change my thoughts or opinions on rapist,you as a do gooder maybe can carry on protecting the abusers and defending the poor criminals,but the geography of where i live wont shut me down or stop me caring for the victims.

you asked me ,Out of curiosity, why live in a muslim country? and now your talking about Islam and north cyprus. again i live in cyprus. ok!

[Wines Of The World]

THEN ITS FAIR TO ADD Nearly 90% of those convicted of child abuse offences and on the sex offenders register are CHRISTIAN/ MAINLY PROTESTANT white men and not just whete men. Similarly the son of the Defender of the Protestant Faith is has allegedly had sexual relations with underage girls...Definately a better way of broadcasting news.
Out of curiosity, why live in a muslim country?

Yes its very fair to add and i agree 100% with you .

I live in CYPRUS by the way.

[Wines Of The World]

Fath or ethnicity has never been used to describe them simply because by doing so you are creating a link between their crime and their ethnicity or faith.

Neither of these aspects is related to the crime unless you are implying their faith or colour makes the crime unique to them. So to describe the men as Muslim is not in line with how others are described and as such inherently racist.

Do you not think there seems to be a problem with child grooming gangs and that it does seem to be grouped in one particular demographic? Unless you just want to ignore the problem or pretend it doesn’t exist?

Most people want to ignore the problem as though it does not exist,thats why it is where it is today,an epidemic in every city and town across the UK and growing day by day. They have been protected far to long.

[Wines Of The World]

Im not excusing Prince Andrew but my understanding is the girl he is accused of having sexual relations with is 17? Still sleazy but not 12-15 and 17 would be legal in the U.K. Also he is accused not been found guilty. As for the majority of those on the sex offenders list I would ask what are the relative numbers for organised gangs which does seem to have become more prevalent in recent years
[/quote]
Prince Andrew is a fool to himself, so the girl met him in Tramps niteclub when she was 16, old enough for sex in the UK, she was besotted with meeting a real prince and they all went back to a house, Normal, they ended up in bed together,Normal, she was of legal age. He should of never denied being in the same bed as the 16 year old. So in the USA he was in bed with her again allegedly and 17 years old this time, who would know the legal age for sex is 18 in some states and different in others, again why deny he was in the same bed as her, we all know he was in bed with her,so what,she was 17 years old,some women have a child by this age .

Stupid man should of been honest.

[Spurs Phil]

About time it was scrapped completely. If folk want to help others let them it is their choice , it should not be compulsory for everyone .

[AFC]

@Wines of the wold,
Indeed in many crimes ethnicity is very important, however its the term Muslim that is irrelevant here, unless of course you are working on an Islam phobic agenda. A Muslim is a follower or a faith as you said, but identifying the individual as a Muslim is saying his or her faith is responsible for their actions.

How many white Christian males travel to places such as Vietnam for sexual relations with underage kids, most aged 5 or 6? o by your theory it is then fair to say Christianity as a faith preaches men should sleep with 5 year old kids.

If you wish to have a discussion i would suggest you leave your xenophobic attitudes to one side. I really have no time for racists or your islamophobic attitude.

Dear Dear Dear me, i had really assumed we left uneducated racist migration to places such as the Costa Del Sol, and Cyprus attracted a more educated Brit.




@SPURSPHIL....

Really? We do no not do something for nothing, we never have...
In 2015 the UK legally committed to spending 0.7% of its GDP on official development assistance.
In [tackling poverty] we cement our global moral leadership, and make a strong contribution to the UK’s soft power and our ability to project our influence across the globe.

By investing in developing nations, Britain is able to create a new global identity for itself as friend of the developing world. The UK is also able to build new trading relationships and even ensure that the issues it prioritises are discussed and accepted across the developing world, all aided by Britain’s development aid agenda.

A 2014 ODI report showed that in 2014 every $1 of UK aid spent generated an increase in UK exports of $0.22 thereby providing an estimated 12,000 extra UK jobs. For those critics of Britain’s development aid budget, the domestic benefits of that policy are often ignored or overlooked in favour of short-term spending proprieties based on a different set of priorities, both domestically and internationally.

Priti Patel, has focused much of her energy on using aid to stimulate trade agreements post Brexit. Priti Patel’s recent statement sums it up ‘our aid and other relationships around the world, come together to deliver in our national interest and deliver for Britain when it comes to free trade agreements but also life post-Brexit.’

[EnjoyingTheSun]

In 2015 the UK legally committed to spending 0.7% of its GDP on official development assistance.
In [tackling poverty] we cement our global moral leadership, and make a strong contribution to the UK’s soft power and our ability to project our influence across the globe.

By investing in developing nations, Britain is able to create a new global identity for itself as friend of the developing world. The UK is also able to build new trading relationships and even ensure that the issues it prioritises are discussed and accepted across the developing world, all aided by Britain’s development aid agenda.

A 2014 ODI report showed that in 2014 every $1 of UK aid spent generated an increase in UK exports of $0.22 thereby providing an estimated 12,000 extra UK jobs. For those critics of Britain’s development aid budget, the domestic benefits of that policy are often ignored or overlooked in favour of short-term spending proprieties based on a different set of priorities, both domestically and internationally.

There are two sides to immigration and foreign aid. A moral side and an economic side.

No amount of clever accountancy will convince me that there is much economic benefit to either tbh.

Even the reports that try to convince you that immigration has a positive economic benefit, slip into the small print that EU immigration has a positive economic benefit but that non EU immigration has a negative impact. What that tells me is that if we are working on economic factors then a points based approach to immigration is best. When you hire a plumber do you hire the one who does the best job or is the cheapest or the one that has the most children to feed?

I'm a big believer in foreign aid and have every sympathy for economic migrants, who wouldn't want to improve their life?

The problem is Britain does not have elastic sides and if we are going to help people how can we help the most people for x amount of money? We do also have to bear in mind that whilst we are one of the richest countries on Earth that the next ten years are going to see a recession the likes of which we haven't seen since the 1930s.
Lots of people give money to comic relief but cut down substantially when they lose their job.

So we need to accept that there are going to be cuts across the board and foreign aid will be an obvious and popular cut. So we need to get the most bang for our buck.

We could take a family of 6 Ethiopians and house them in London, one of the most expensive cities on the planet, and accept that we are going to spend a lot of money taking care of this family but it is the humanitarian thing to do.
Or they could stay where they were and we spend the same amount of money in Ethiopia and not only help them but 100s of others like them and help build an infrastructure in those countries rather than make intolerable demands on our infrastructure.
Also for the long term prosperity of these countries it might be better to let the trained engineers stay there and help grow their own country rather than work in a McDonalds in London for minimum wage?

This to me is joined up thinking and common sense. It wont suit racists for obvious reasons but maybe if the immigrants that now stay in their own country getting much needed help can still vote in UK elections we might get the support of the humanitarians on the left.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

@Wines of the wold,
Indeed in many crimes ethnicity is very important, however its the term Muslim that is irrelevant here, unless of course you are working on an Islam phobic agenda. A Muslim is a follower or a faith as you said, but identifying the individual as a Muslim is saying his or her faith is responsible for their actions.

My understanding is that it isn't just a Muslim problem in that the perpetrators are in the main Muslims from Pakistan and a certain region in Pakistan to boot. There are common denominators but Muslim is certainly one The incidence of say Turkish Muslims in this disgusting practise is to my knowledge zero. The problem is it makes uncomfortable reading and there seems to be a desire on the authorities to cover their eyes and ears and ignore the problem. There is a problem here and we need to look at why because it is creating a powderkeg.

How many white Christian males travel to places such as Vietnam for sexual relations with underage kids, most aged 5 or 6? o by your theory it is then fair to say Christianity as a faith preaches men should sleep with 5 year old kids.

This to me is false equivalence. For one paedophilia and child grooming gangs are both horrendous but not necessarily the same side of a horrible coin.
I would also question how many of your Vietnamese 'tourists' are churchgoers/practicing Christians. I would also ask if there is anything on underage sexual intercourse in the New Testament that they could justify themselves with.

There is the problem of Muhammad's marriage to Aishah. It seems to be accepted that she was very young, certainly below the current age of consent. You can point out that it was a different time then but many won't allow a comma of those scriptures to be changed even though the world has moved on.
There is always interpretation but basically to my understanding if you wanted to find justification for having sex with a minor in Muslim scriptures it wouldn't be too difficult and if the minor is non Muslim then so much the better.

Dear Dear Dear me, i had really assumed we left uneducated racist migration to places such as the Costa Del Sol, and Cyprus attracted a more educated Brit.

I'm not disagreeing with your point but snobbery is never a good look.

[erol]

The problem is it makes uncomfortable reading and there seems to be a desire on the authorities to cover their eyes and ears and ignore the problem.

https://www.itv.com/news/2018-02-18/sho ... ocumentary

There is a problem here and we need to look at why because it is creating a powderkeg.

There is a problem here and we need to look at why it is NOT creating a powderkeg.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

The problem is it makes uncomfortable reading and there seems to be a desire on the authorities to cover their eyes and ears and ignore the problem.

https://www.itv.com/news/2018-02-18/sho ... ocumentary

Yep by throwing up diversions. Not got a Jimmy Saville link?

There is a problem here and we need to look at why it is NOT creating a powderkeg.

Keep ignoring it and keep giving them confidence it's bound to end well.
One of these days they'll choose their victim badly and those who have lost faith in the authorities will deal with it themselves.

I can assure you that if any of them laid a finger on any of mine a foreign prison will look very inviting for them. Why would I involve the authorities, all they will do is tie my hands?

[erol]

The problem of systematic child sexual abuse at British public schools is real and widespread and has been going on for decades if not centuries. It has never received the kind of attention that that of sexual abuse by predominantly Asian grooming gangs in the UK has. There are reasons why there is such a discrepancy.

[AFC]

@Wines of the wold,
Indeed in many crimes ethnicity is very important, however its the term Muslim that is irrelevant here, unless of course you are working on an Islam phobic agenda. A Muslim is a follower or a faith as you said, but identifying the individual as a Muslim is saying his or her faith is responsible for their actions.

My understanding is that it isn't just a Muslim problem in that the perpetrators are in the main Muslims from Pakistan and a certain region in Pakistan to boot. There are common denominators but Muslim is certainly one The incidence of say Turkish Muslims in this disgusting practise is to my knowledge zero. The problem is it makes uncomfortable reading and there seems to be a desire on the authorities to cover their eyes and ears and ignore the problem. There is a problem here and we need to look at why because it is creating a powderkeg.

How many white Christian males travel to places such as Vietnam for sexual relations with underage kids, most aged 5 or 6? o by your theory it is then fair to say Christianity as a faith preaches men should sleep with 5 year old kids.

This to me is false equivalence. For one paedophilia and child grooming gangs are both horrendous but not necessarily the same side of a horrible coin.
I would also question how many of your Vietnamese 'tourists' are churchgoers/practicing Christians. I would also ask if there is anything on underage sexual intercourse in the New Testament that they could justify themselves with.

There is the problem of Muhammad's marriage to Aishah. It seems to be accepted that she was very young, certainly below the current age of consent. You can point out that it was a different time then but many won't allow a comma of those scriptures to be changed even though the world has moved on.
There is always interpretation but basically to my understanding if you wanted to find justification for having sex with a minor in Muslim scriptures it wouldn't be too difficult and if the minor is non Muslim then so much the better.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Considering the historical context, thirteen year old girls were commonly married off and expected to bear children.

It is thought that Joseph was in his 70's when he got Mary pregnant. She was thought to be around 12. The Torah says a girl is ready for sex at 3 years and 1 day old.

If one looks at the bible, you are free to have sex as long as you are married, so if a 13 years girl is married with a man of whatever age, then it is ok there is nothing wrong with age differences...to turn this into a religious debate is a very dangerous path to tread upon.

Chief Crown Prosecutor for the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS), in a statement some years ago pointed out 90 - 95% of people convicted of child sex offences were white men. So given how you use islam as an example and given that It is thought that Joseph was in his 70's when he got Mary pregnant and she was thought to be around 12 I guess Christianity preaches the rape of young girls based on your formula.

Using faith as the driving force for this is completely unjustified.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

The Torah says a girl is ready for sex at 3 years and 1 day old.

Unless you have a link that stands up to any scrutiny I believe you are confused with a ketannah where any girl between the age of 3 years and that of 12 years plus one day was subject to her father's authority, and he could arrange a marriage for her without her agreement. However, after reaching the age of maturity, she would have to agree to the marriage to be considered as married. So basically an arranged marriage which she could body swerve when old enough for it to actually happen, I think arranged marriages are only really prevalent in certain cultures/religions now. One leaps to mind.
In Israel the only country where the religion is Jewish the age of consent is 16 for all sexualities.
In the Middle East I don’t think there is an age of consent as such but you can’t have sex until you are married. The age for that differs, in Iran it is 13. In Pakistan it is 16 but it is not uncommon for women to marry at 14. Data is a little sketchy for the age of consent for same sex relationships

Not really the same is it but nice try.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

If one looks at the bible, you are free to have sex as long as you are married, so if a 13 years girl is married with a man of whatever age, then it is ok there is nothing wrong with age differences...to turn this into a religious debate is a very dangerous path to tread upon.

Chief Crown Prosecutor for the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS), in a statement some years ago pointed out 90 - 95% of people convicted of child sex offences were white men. So given how you use islam as an example and given that It is thought that Joseph was in his 70's when he got Mary pregnant and she was thought to be around 12 I guess Christianity preaches the rape of young girls based on your formula.

Using faith as the driving force for this is completely unjustified.

Ok we’ve dealt with the Torah.
When you are quoting here are you quoting from the New Testament as opposed to the Old Testament because whilst I’m not religious I understand the Christian religion follows the New not Old Testament? Also what laws there were such as the age of consent that were driven by the religions of the day have long since been superseded as most countries, certainly Christian ones are secular.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

The problem of systematic child sexual abuse at British public schools is real and widespread and has been going on for decades if not centuries. It has never received the kind of attention that that of sexual abuse by predominantly Asian grooming gangs in the UK has. There are reasons why there is such a discrepancy.

I would imagine that this relates to boarding schools in the main?
I’d say it sounds a good reason to ban them but I’d worry as to where the Labour politicians and activists will send their children. I guess they could send them to the local comprehensive in their constituency but I think that would mean that they would actually have to live in the constituency so it might be an insurmountable problem tbh.

[erol]

The problem of systematic child sexual abuse at British public schools is real and widespread and has been going on for decades if not centuries. It has never received the kind of attention that that of sexual abuse by predominantly Asian grooming gangs in the UK has. There are reasons why there is such a discrepancy.

I would imagine that this relates to boarding schools in the main?

They are in essence the same thing. Here is a list of the top 100 UK independent (public) schools by a level result. Good luck finding one that is not a boarding school.

https://www.best-schools.co.uk/uk-schoo ... by-a-level

I’d say it sounds a good reason to ban them but I’d worry as to where the Labour politicians and activists will send their children. I guess they could send them to the local comprehensive in their constituency but I think that would mean that they would actually have to live in the constituency so it might be an insurmountable problem tbh.

That you make light of this issue of child sex abuse in the way that you do just emphasises the very point I am making.

I dare you to work through that list above and google 'child sexual abuse' and the name of these top public schools added. The results are shocking. Not just in the % of schools on that list that bring up reports of sexual abuse of children there (a large majority) but also in the commonality of the stories. Commonalities of abuse continuing over years and decades, of reports of abuse being covered up,buried and ignored and the abuser left to continue their abuse. Over and over and over these same themes reoccur. The more prestigious the name (St Paul's, Westminster, Winchester, Haberdashers, Eton etc etc) the more severe the abuse and the cover ups. This is nothing new. This has been going on my entire life and no doubt much longer before that. Whilst there finally has been recognition of such kinds of abuse in the Church generally and the Catholic Church specifically no such similar degree of recognition of systematic abuse in Britain's public schools has yet happened.

That you appear so willing to make 'light' of this systematic sexual abuse of children over decades / centuries and dismiss the problem as probably 'insurmountable' and yet express such serious and persistent concern over the much more recent phenomenon of sexual abuse by asian grooming gangs and how the authorities appear to cover their eyes and ears and ignore the problem, for me begs the question - why the difference ?

[EnjoyingTheSun]

That you appear so willing to make 'light' of this systematic sexual abuse of children over decades / centuries and dismiss the problem as probably 'insurmountable'

Wow faux outrage and twisting my words in the same sentence, all the guns are coming out here. My joke was highlighting the hypocrisy of the left condemning private schools while ensuring they continue to use them as well you know. And when I used the word insurmountable it wasn’t in relation to sex abuse in private schools but on Labour MPs problems on where they will be able to educate their children as they don’t ever seem to have much intention of inflicting the same education on their children that they intend other people to have. But then you knew that too.

I’m sure generations of families send their children to these schools and conditions are the same as when they themselves went. I personally wouldn’t send my children to a boarding school even if I had the money but that is their misguided choice and their money. The problem with young girls in certain areas that are being abused is they don’t have those same choices and rely on the authorities to help them and aren’t getting that help.
So awful about what’s happening in those schools and great diversion but....
Is it time for Jimmy Saville yet?

[EnjoyingTheSun]

https://www.itv.com/news/2018-02-18/sho ... ocumentary

“Since 2012, 425 people have been accused of carrying out sexual attacks at UK boarding schools

Not every force could provide further details but at least 160 people have been charged so far.

At least 171 of the total number were accused of historical abuse.”

Doesn’t sound like it’s being covered up, 160 charged so far out of 425 isn’t a terrible batting average if we assume some of the accusations might have been spurious and some might simply fall at the evidential hurdle. I can see that the schools might try and cover it up but is there any evidence that politicians and police are complicit in that cover up?

[AFC]

If one looks at the bible, you are free to have sex as long as you are married, so if a 13 years girl is married with a man of whatever age, then it is ok there is nothing wrong with age differences...to turn this into a religious debate is a very dangerous path to tread upon.

Chief Crown Prosecutor for the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS), in a statement some years ago pointed out 90 - 95% of people convicted of child sex offences were white men. So given how you use islam as an example and given that It is thought that Joseph was in his 70's when he got Mary pregnant and she was thought to be around 12 I guess Christianity preaches the rape of young girls based on your formula.

Using faith as the driving force for this is completely unjustified.

Ok we’ve dealt with the Torah.
When you are quoting here are you quoting from the New Testament as opposed to the Old Testament because whilst I’m not religious I understand the Christian religion follows the New not Old Testament? Also what laws there were such as the age of consent that were driven by the religions of the day have long since been superseded as most countries, certainly Christian ones are secular.

I dont beleive the issues have been looked at...you were quick to align pakistani child abuse due to the koran, yet when faacts show all 3 Abraham religions practiced in similar acts, the facts are skimmed over. So if pakistani men act in such a way becuase of their faith and know no better, then surely Christain males act in the same way as the bible preaches the same. You cannot use one example for one then disregard for the other.

as for the Torah, Said Rabbi Joseph, "Come and take note: A girl three years and one day old is betrothed by intercourse. And if a Levir has had intercourse with her, he has acquired her. And one can be liable on her account because of the law prohibiting intercourse with a married woman. And she imparts uncleanness to him who has intercourse with her when she is menstruating, to convey uncleanness to the lower as to the upper layer [of what lies beneath]. If she was married to a priest, she may eat food in the status of priestly rations. If one of those who are unfit for marriage with her had intercourse with her, he has rendered her unfit to marry into the priesthood. If any of those who are forbidden in the Torah to have intercourse with her had intercourse with her, he is put to death on her account, but she is free of responsibility [M.Nid. 5:4].
Sanhedrin 7/55B [132]

[erol]

Wow faux outrage....

The only faux outrage I can see here is that of someone claiming to be outraged by child sexual abuse by asian grooming gangs and the failure of authorities to stop it quick enough who dismisses such abuse and the systematic cover up of abuse when it suits politically.

So I guess the (centuries) of systematic abuse in the Church and the historic covering up of such abuse is also not of similar concern to you as asian grooming gangs , because people chose to send their children to places where they could be subject to such abuse ?

I think you really should try considering what you are actually saying here. What you are saying to a significant degree, it seems to me, is that for someone who has been a victim of such abuse at a public school, the blame lies not with the abuser or those that protected or covered up their abuse over decades but actually lays with the parents of that child for sending them to that school ! I find such an idea as disgusting and abhorrent as the idea that the blame for someone abused by an asian grooming gang lays with them for being 'wild', or with their parents.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

I dont beleive the issues have been looked at...you were quick to align pakistani child abuse due to the koran, yet when faacts show all 3 Abraham religions practiced in similar acts, the facts are skimmed over. So if pakistani men act in such a way becuase of their faith and know no better, then surely Christain males act in the same way as the bible preaches the same. You cannot use one example for one then disregard for the other.

as for the Torah, Said Rabbi Joseph, "Come and take note: A girl three years and one day old is betrothed by intercourse. And if a Levir has had intercourse with her, he has acquired her. And one can be liable on her account because of the law prohibiting intercourse with a married woman. And she imparts uncleanness to him who has intercourse with her when she is menstruating, to convey uncleanness to the lower as to the upper layer [of what lies beneath]. If she was married to a priest, she may eat food in the status of priestly rations. If one of those who are unfit for marriage with her had intercourse with her, he has rendered her unfit to marry into the priesthood. If any of those who are forbidden in the Torah to have intercourse with her had intercourse with her, he is put to death on her account, but she is free of responsibility [M.Nid. 5:4].
Sanhedrin 7/55B [132]

The Torah quote seems nonsense because a girl of 3 doesn’t menstrate but it is immaterial because The Torah does not govern everyday life for any but the tiniest proportion of Jews and as I pointed at it has little to do with the legal system of even Israel whereas countries that follow Sharia law are more governed by the Quran a very dated book.

Again the Christian religion follows the New Testament not the Old Testament and again neither book provides any legal apparatus to the law of any Christian country so it’s apples and oranges.

The child grooming gangs seemed to in the main come from a certain region in Pakistan which may be more relevant than their nationality or religion but I guess if we need to brush it under the carpet it won’t do to investigate why.

Personally I’d rather talk about foreign aid as per the thread and never raised the child grooming gangs in this thread but only responded when the usual whataboutism came up about the problem.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

The only faux outrage I can see here is that of someone claiming to be outraged by child sexual abuse by asian grooming gangs and the failure of authorities to stop it quick enough who dismisses such abuse and the systematic cover up of abuse when it suits politically.

So I guess the (centuries) of systematic abuse in the Church and the historic covering up of such abuse is also not of similar concern to you as asian grooming gangs , because people chose to send their children to places where they could be subject to such abuse ?

I think you really should try considering what you are actually saying here. What you are saying to a significant degree, it seems to me, is that for someone who has been a victim of such abuse at a public school, the blame lies not with the abuser or those that protected or covered up their abuse over decades but actually lays with the parents of that child for sending them to that school ! I find such an idea as disgusting and abhorrent as the idea that the blame for someone abused by an asian grooming gang lays with them for being 'wild', or with their parents.

I’m simply pointing out that in one case you have naive children who may or may not have the best of home life being in danger because of their geographical location as to which they have no choice. You would hope that the state might take a more active role in their welfare if the family aren’t doing the best of jobs but it seems that block votes might be more of a factor in those geographical locations.
I can see that the community that the child grooming gangs come from might be complicit in trying to cover up the problem in the same way as the Catholic Church or these public schools do so but I’m not aware that the police or local politicians join in as much.
As for the parents who are aware of ongoing problems in churches or public schools and still choose, and that is the key word here, to send their children into these danger spots then I have no words.

[erol]

I can see that the schools might try and cover it up but is there any evidence that politicians and police are complicit in that cover up?

Well if you had done what I suggested, and search that top public school list with the terms 'child sexual abuse' you would have your answer. Just one example 4th on the list - Westminster School. Google that with child sexual abuse and you will get this in the top three hits.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/h ... 56796.html

Senior political and police figures knew about child sexual abuse linked to Westminster but “turned a blind eye to it” amid a culture of cover-up, an inquiry has found.

Political institutions significantly failed in their responses to allegations of child sex abuse for decades by “actively shielding and protecting perpetrators” and covering up allegations, the Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse has concluded.

According to the inquiry, several highly placed people in the 1970s and 1980s, including Sir Peter Morrison MP and Sir Cyril Smith MP, were known or rumoured to be active in their sexual interest in children and were protected from prosecution in a number of ways, including by police.

Former Metropolitan Police officer Robert Glen told the inquiry his team had enough evidence to prosecute Sir Cyril Smith, a former Liberal MP, in the 1970s for sexual offences against young boys – but he claims the investigation was thwarted by senior officers who said it was “too political”.

This is not an isolated case. This has been going on for DECADES. Just go down that list and do the work. If your real concern was children getting abused whilst authorities and those charged with their protection did nothing and even actively covered up such abuse, then you would put the time and effort in to do the work. Of course you will not do this. The same themes of re occur over and over and over.

That some of this systematic abuse and covering up of abuse over decades in British public schools is finally starting to come to light is no more evidence that 'it has not been covered up' than the fact that asian grooming gangs have been prosecuted and jailed is evidence that these crimes were not ignored, dismissed and covered up. That Boris Johnson has claimed such inquiries, including in to his old alma mater, are a waste of time and money (spaffing money up the wall was the expression he used) is of course no evidence of a desire to cover up and ignore such abuse by politicians.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

Well if you had done what I suggested, and search that top public school list with the terms 'child sexual abuse' you would have your answer. Just one example 4th on the list - Westminster School. Google that with child sexual abuse and you will get this in the top three hits.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/h ... 56796.html

I realise you are desperate to move the focus onto public schools and off child grooming gangs and maybe get private schools abolished in the same hit, win/win but I’m seeing Westminster as in the seat of government but nothing about the school.

[erol]

I’m simply pointing out that in one case you have naive children who may or may not have the best of home life being in danger because of their geographical location as to which they have no choice. You would hope that the state might take a more active role in their welfare if the family aren’t doing the best of jobs but it seems that block votes might be more of a factor in those geographical locations.

And what about the child abused at a school like Eton (or westminster or or or or or). Would you not hope the state would take an active role in their welfare given that the abuser is a headmaster of that school or senior master who has been abusing children for decades and everyone in the school knows they have been doing this ? You think such a child being preyed upon by 'revered' teachers at the countries most prestigious and 'respected' schools, that their parents have PAID to send them to, are less vulnerable or worthy of state protection, than those abused by grooming gangs ?

[erol]

I realise you are desperate to move the focus onto public schools and off child grooming gangs and maybe get private schools abolished in the same hit, win/win but I’m seeing Westminster as in the seat of government but nothing about the school.

What I am moving the focus to is your 'outrage signalling' over asian grooming gangs, whilst you try and minimise, dismiss or excuse a much longer more systemic example of child sexual abuse that does not serve your political dogma of 'left bad / right good' quite so well or involve 'asians'. I can understand why you do not like me doing this.

I have and do speak about the failures of the state in terms of grooming gangs AND abuse at public schools. You on the other hand...

https://www.google.com.cy/search?ei=4Lt ... CA0&uact=5

If you do not or will not look then of course you will not see.

[AFC]

Since the time of Homer every European, in what he could say about the Orient, was a racist, an imperialist, and almost totally ethnocentric. Edward said

[AFC]

In 2015 the UK legally committed to spending 0.7% of its GDP on official development assistance.
In [tackling poverty] we cement our global moral leadership, and make a strong contribution to the UK’s soft power and our ability to project our influence across the globe.

By investing in developing nations, Britain is able to create a new global identity for itself as friend of the developing world. The UK is also able to build new trading relationships and even ensure that the issues it prioritises are discussed and accepted across the developing world, all aided by Britain’s development aid agenda.

A 2014 ODI report showed that in 2014 every $1 of UK aid spent generated an increase in UK exports of $0.22 thereby providing an estimated 12,000 extra UK jobs. For those critics of Britain’s development aid budget, the domestic benefits of that policy are often ignored or overlooked in favour of short-term spending proprieties based on a different set of priorities, both domestically and internationally.

There are two sides to immigration and foreign aid. A moral side and an economic side.

No amount of clever accountancy will convince me that there is much economic benefit to either tbh.

There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action

[EnjoyingTheSun]

Since the time of Homer every European, in what he could say about the Orient, was a racist, an imperialist, and almost totally ethnocentric. Edward said

Yes I’m sure there were thousands of them travelling to the Orient and writing about it in 400 BC

[EnjoyingTheSun]

I have and do speak about the failures of the state in terms of grooming gangs AND abuse at public schools. You on the other hand...

https://www.google.com.cy/search?ei=4Lt ... CA0&uact=5

If you do not or will not look then of course you will not see.

Erol, you do know the difference between Westminster the seat of Government and Westminster school? I know it’s confusing as they have the same name but.....

[EnjoyingTheSun]

There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action

Says the man who seems to think that people were visiting the Orient and writing a travelogue or diary in 400 BC.

[AFC]

You simply proved my point...

Its a quote from Edward Wadie Said a professor of literature at Columbia University, a public intellectual, and a founder of the academic field of postcolonial studies.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

You simply proved my point...

Its a quote from Edward Wadie Said a professor of literature at Columbia University, a public intellectual, and a founder of the academic field of postcolonial studies.

Yes no doubt a clever guy but two points.
You’ve heard of Marco Polo right? Him popping to the Orient some 1600 years after Homer was a bit of a big deal so we can assume that people weren’t commuting there much in Homer’s time.
Also reading and writing wasn’t too common in 400 BC so I’d be interested to see some of the written records of this people popping to the Orient and slagging off the locals.
But I guess some people like to hear sound bites without the capacity to realise they are BS

[jofra]

None of these are true.....
History of writing...
Ancient Greece
400BC (about)
and
Europeans in Medieval China - which refers to Europeans from 1000 onwards, together with Hellenistic Greeks and Ancient Romans (q.v.), which while uncommon, all pre-date Marco Polo...
But none of the above can ever be true, when it does not support a belief....

[EnjoyingTheSun]

None of these are true.....
History of writing...
Ancient Greece
400BC (about)
and
Europeans in Medieval China - which refers to Europeans from 1000 onwards, together with Hellenistic Greeks and Ancient Romans (q.v.), which while uncommon, all pre-date Marco Polo...
But none of the above can ever be true, when it does not support a belief....

I’m not as educated as Edward Said by a long shot but I don’t take everything that people say on face value especially those with an agenda so I’m going to have to see some of Eddie’s research on those people slagging of the Orient in 8 BC I’m afraid.

Homer was born and died between 8 and 12 BC. I made a mistake and thought 400 BC but it doesn’t really matter for these purposes tbh it was a loooong time ago.

I didn’t say no one could read and write back then, I said not many could. After all only 12% of the people in the world could read and write in 1820 and it was only 42% in 1960. I think it’s fair to say literacy back in Homer’s time probably wasn’t too high and people wasn’t sending each other letters and postcards.

I didn’t say people didn’t travel, no-one has figured out how the Aboriginals got to Australia from Asia 30,000 years ago but they did. No-one wrote a diary apparently.
But back in Homer’s time people by and large never left their village let alone travelled to China in 8 BC. We live in a country here where people don’t leave their village now.
Also travelling took a long time and life expectancy back then was around 35. No I’m not saying everyone died at 35 but that was the average.

Did you actually read the article on Europeans in China you posted?

“Given textual and archaeological evidence, it is thought that thousands of Europeans lived in Imperial China during the period of Mongol rule.[1] These were people from countries traditionally belonging to the lands of Christendom during the High to Late Middle Ages who visited, traded, performed Christian missionary work, or lived in China. This occurred primarily during the second half of the 13th century and the first half of the 14th century, coinciding with the rule of the Mongol Empire, which ruled over a large part of Eurasia and connected Europe with their Chinese dominion of the Yuan dynasty (1271–1368)”

So yes some people travelled to China a long time ago but we are talking a long long time ago.

I never said Marco Polo was the first person to travel to China between
1271 and 1295 AD but I said it wasn’t common. Had it had been common and everyone was commuting to China then tbh no one would have heard of Marco Polo. “Oh no not another travelogue about China....”

So we needed people to travel to China back in Homer’s time? How many people did that? 1000? 100? 10?

How many people do you know who have been to China even now? I can think of one friend who has been there. I have more friends from China than who have been there.

Of those who did go they would have needed to be able to write? So that chops it down a bit more with a literacy rate in low single figures.

Then of course the fact that they COULD write doesn’t mean that they DID write so chop it down even more.
By and large any people let alone busy adventurers didn’t have much time or inclination to keep a diary. That’s why everyone has heard of Samuel Pepys who’s only real claim to fame is he wrote a diary 1600 years after Homer.
A lot of the books written about famous people were written centuries after they died.

So how many records are there left of Europeans criticising the Orient? One? None?

But I guess “from the minimal records we have over the last few hundred years” doesn’t have the same ring as “Since the time of Homer.” Like I said it’s a BS soundbite.
I get it, Said is a respected left wing scholar and people think it carries weight quoting him but maybe read the quote first?
Ever think his agenda is to prove people have been xenophobic for years and he likes to throw out a soundbite?

You could clap like a seal or think that’s got the smell of BS so you are going to have to show me some proof. I’m sure we’ve all spent £5 and queued to look at some barely decipherable words written on a wall from back then so there shouldn’t be a wealth of conflicting accounts here.

But then I guess people quote Marx and repeat his theories on workers in factories etc and this is a guy who sponged off people and never worked a day in his life. After his parents gave up on him he was lucky enough to bump into a spoilt rich kid and ponce off of him.
He didn’t even visit a factory let alone work in one. He carried out his research in libraries. I’m not saying he wasn’t a clever and well educated man but I will say if I wanted a guide on how to get away without getting a job I’d certainly follow Marx.
Other stuff, not so much.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

And what about the child abused at a school like Eton (or westminster or or or or or). Would you not hope the state would take an active role in their welfare

You’ll need to keep note of this quote for when you later want to post about abolishing Eton because of the privilege in confers and how it’s pupils have a gilded life.
And I’m not naive I realise that the establishment covers up for its own such as MPs or headmasters of famous public schools. It’s not right but it has always happened and sadly always well.
But Erol the grooming gangs were populated by mini cab drivers and kebab shop owners.
This is apples and oranges.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

You simply proved my point...

Its a quote from Edward Wadie Said a professor of literature at Columbia University, a public intellectual, and a founder of the academic field of postcolonial studies.

I’m aware of Said thanks.
So that means you eat everything he says up with a spoon and quote it without reading it or thinking about it?
David Irving is a historian who even top historians who despise him would acknowledge is well read and has done an awful lot of research in his field but personally if he said good evening to me I’d look out the window and check.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action

Ok you pointed out that we get an economic benefit to giving foreign aid?
So we give it to get a benefit? Like giving a present because you hope to get a better one back?

We give foreign aid to a lot of countries that probably economically don’t really need it, even to ones that are launching space programmes or joining the nuclear arms race. I can imagine that with those countries we might get the better end of a trade deal.
But the countries we should be targeting for foreign aid have no chance to make us money so this whole it’s an economic benefit smokescreen is a nonsense.
To me like immigration it’s a moral issue I don’t think there should be an economic pay off and I don’t think there is one.
I can see why some might use some creative accounting to show the economic cost isn’t as much as it is though.