yes yes yes!!!!

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Up the Reds.
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Re: yes yes yes!!!!

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Post by Up the Reds. »

EJS, you cannot debate with utterly closed minds. Where has their totally accurate and uquestionable 'truth' come from ?? Could it be from the totally biased Murdoch empire or of course the Soros backed US left wing press or perhaps Facebook,Twitter or Google. Could it be the good old Beeb or ITV. My family lives in the 'real USA' not the big Democratic cities, Holywood or Las Vegas ...pretty much as most of the residents of the UK don't live in the London M25 'bubble'. Sadly we're now in an era where if you have a different view about any subject you are obviously stupid or brain dead and of course your friends will stop speaking to you, might even lose your job. Sad, sad world. No argument that the 1960's were probably the best, life is ever likely to be.

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Re: yes yes yes!!!!

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Post by Hedge-fund »

100% Trump has fairly lost this election.

But it is good entertainment to see him sticking 2 fingers up and I think we are seeing the start of his 2024 campaign.

He's probably in there setting traps like the kid in Home Alone for when they come for him.

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Re: yes yes yes!!!!

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

Up the Reds. wrote:
Fri 13 Nov 2020 12:20 pm
your friends will stop speaking to you, might even lose your job. Sad, sad world. No argument that the 1960's were probably the best, life is ever likely to be.
The desire to shut down debates as quickly as possible, the pile-ons and cancel culture is a very sad state of affairs. It is amusing to see some quote McCarthyism in one sentence and arrange a pile on to cost someone their job in the next sentence.
I have very little time for Trump and if a reasonable candidate stood against him he would be totally blown out of the water. But what he has faced so far is professional politicians who seem to have an utter disconnect with ordinary people. We have the same state of affairs in the UK.
If you say crime is much worse, they will produce some statistics that will not stand up to any sort of critical thinking or scrutiny.
They will tell you that racism is worse than ever 12 years after we had a black president elected and two of the UKs main political roles are being carried out by BAME people.
Are there still bigots around? Undoubtedly, there always will be. But you cannot legally discriminate against anyone based on race and those bigots find that their views are unacceptable in today's society.

Does anyone seriously think that the left have any desire to help BAME people? They don't want to give a hand up they want to give a hand out so people remain in need of government assistance and so will vote for whoever will give the biggest handouts.
We have seen BLM attack places of business for little reason but never challenge drug dealers who blight their communities.
They will herald the minimal cases of black people killed by white people whilst ignoring the epidemic of black on black murder and violence. Do black lives matter or do only those black lives matter who might create racial division?

Trump is an appalling man and the votes for him were a protest vote against the elite who ignore ordinary people's concerns. Trump isn't a fascist but is a warning that if the elite continue to ignore those concerns then people will vote for someone who they feel does. Then we might be in real trouble.

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Re: yes yes yes!!!!

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

Hedge-fund wrote:
Fri 13 Nov 2020 12:37 pm
100% Trump has fairly lost this election.

But it is good entertainment to see him sticking 2 fingers up and I think we are seeing the start of his 2024 campaign.

He's probably in there setting traps like the kid in Home Alone for when they come for him.
He probably has but if him challenging the vote reveals anomalies and makes it more transparent in the future then that can only be a good thing. I am suspicious of the same people who challenge any election they lose seem to be in a hurry to rush this one through. I was very uncomfortable with the Peterborough bi election in Britain and the speed with which it was given a clean bill of health.

If the Democrats have done a few dodgy things and hoped that Trump would be too embarrassed to challenge them then they certainly picked the wrong guy. Some of the states were won so narrowly that a few thousand votes for Trump that went to Biden would make a difference.
A big question was why were the polls so wrong, again?

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Re: yes yes yes!!!!

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Post by Groucho »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Fri 13 Nov 2020 10:32 am
I am particularly enjoying the haste with which British people want Biden to be officially elected President.
Let's not reassure ourselves that the Dominion Voting Software is fit for purpose. The dead haven't voted. How and why the polls were so wrong, again. The numbers Biden pulled in compared to the complete apathy at his rallies.

Lets get this done as quickly as possible. Nothing to see here. Don't open that draw!!!!

There are 3 questions here with regard to the fiddling of the vote.

Would they do it? Almost certainly. Any attempt to make the process more robust is fought tooth and nail

Can they do it? There certainly seems to be opportunity so that needs addressing so people will have faith in the system.

Did they do it? That's what needs to be examined. Biden doesn't take office for another 9 weeks so we have time. Although time seems a strange concept with regard to the American vote. We have counted 95% of the ballots today but will need 3 days to count the other 5%


The marvelous thing is these will be the same people who continue to not accept the Brexit vote and will delay its result until the end of time if they could.
People didn't know what they were voting for.
It was only advisory.
The bus, the bus!
I realise now that you are quite mad... an adherent of conspiracy theories and fodder for the instigators of such theories so there's no point debating anything with you because you are beyond help.

I notice too you chose not comment in support Trump's behaviour since Nov 3rd... even a loony like you can't believe that the holder of POTUS ought to act in such a demeaning manner.. a manner that makes the rest of the world wince and the US voters know they've done the right thing.

Now you bring Brexit into your diatribe - more obfuscation.

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Re: yes yes yes!!!!

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

Groucho wrote:
Fri 13 Nov 2020 3:15 pm


I realise now that you are quite mad... an adherent of conspiracy theories and fodder for the instigators of such theories so there's no point debating anything with you because you are beyond help.
Tranlation. I can't actually rebut what you are saying so will insult you. Can't get at the message so will attack the messenger.

As a rule I don't buy into conspiracy theories I never bought into Russian interference in the 2016 Election or the Brexit vote, how about you?

Is voter fraud rare? Seems to be. Is voter fraud non existent? No.

Do I believe that there is evidence that the voting system is foolproof? No and as such needs to be examined.
What harm can that do? If Trump is proven to be completely wrong then it can only be a good thing because he then can't rehash it if he runs in 2024.

These two people sum it up quite well;

https://twitter.com/i/status/1327231468012236807

https://twitter.com/i/status/1327231330401325056

I'm guessing they are keeping quiet at the moment because like you they don't really care if the vote was correct they just want the Orange man out.
Groucho wrote:
Fri 13 Nov 2020 3:15 pm

I notice too you chose not comment in support Trump's behaviour since Nov 3rd... even a loony like you can't believe that the holder of POTUS ought to act in such a demeaning manner.. a manner that makes the rest of the world wince and the US voters know they've done the right thing.
Trump thinks he was cheated. In all honesty he was always going to say that. But he did say that the 2016 vote was fishy and he won that. He was always going to complain. Likewise if he was cheated they were always going to use the it's demeaning just accept the vote schtick.
Unfortunately the guy has the skin of a rhino so if they thought he was going to sportingly accept it then they miscalculated.
Groucho wrote:
Fri 13 Nov 2020 3:15 pm

Now you bring Brexit into your diatribe - more obfuscation.
So you never wanted another referendum? The remainers didn't throw up every challenge they could think of to overthrow a simple yes or no vote? The majority voted to leave and so we must accept the majority decision?
I bought it up to illustrate hypocrisy. The fact that you can't defend the hypocrisy doesn't make it obfuscation.

With regard to future elections here and in the US, do you believe in voter ID? I know the answer but am more interested in whether you will answer.
I believe in voter ID because you need ID to buy alcohol at times and various other minor things and voting is one of the most important things you can do. People have given their lives to ensure you can.
Obviously some people may not have a passport or driving licence etc but the intention is that they can apply for free photographic ID to enable them to vote. This verifiable ID will also make their day to day lives easier because they must struggle without proper verifiable ID.
So I can't think of any reason not to have voter ID if you believe in fair and transparent elections.

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Re: yes yes yes!!!!

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

Let’s be clear we aren’t talking about millions of votes here.

If you look at Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Georgia and Arizona. If they don’t go to Biden he can’t win.

Biden has won them all by a razor thin majority. Of the more than 18.5 million votes cast if 54,000 votes went from Trump to Biden he wins all of them. If they stay with Trump he remains the president.

So when you see votes coming in and being declared and 130,000 votes suddenly come in and not a single one of them for Trump I don’t think it is unfair to ask questions. There might be a simple explanation but is it unhinged to ask for it. When you are seeing statistical anomalies is it undemocratic to question them.

Again why was the polling so far out? Who were they polling, where were they polling? It is not difficult to fiddle a poll so if so why? Was it to make The Republicans think it wasn’t worth voting?

When we saw Bill Clinton and Barak Obama win you could see their popularity you could see the electricity at their rallies. Did you see that with Biden? Because remember his numbers smashed theirs.

Obama lost Arizona twice and Bill Clinton only won it once out of two elections. Ditto Georgia. But both of these look like they are going to Biden. But 6000 votes in one and 7000 votes in the other going in Biden's count rather than Trump's is enough to swing them.

It is hopefully all on the level but why the resistance to check?

Its 3 questions here, would they do it, could they do it and did they do it?

They certainly would do it in my opinion.
I'm not confident that they couldn't do it.
So did they do it?
And even if they didn't let's ensure that no side could do it in the future.

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Re: yes yes yes!!!!

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Post by waddo »

Had enough of Trump/Biden fiasco, why bother anyway it's a USA problem in the end. I want a Brexit vote recount!!!!
Make happy those who are near and those who are far will come!

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Re: yes yes yes!!!!

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Post by Mowgli597 »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Fri 13 Nov 2020 4:57 pm
Biden has won them all by a razor thin majority. Of the more than 18.5 million votes cast if 54,000 votes went from Trump to Biden he wins all of them. If they stay with Trump he remains the president.........

........When you are seeing statistical anomalies is it undemocratic to question them.
This is what I find strange: according to what I read Biden received some 5 million votes more than Trump (circa 75 million vs 70 million). Yet you say (and I accept what you say but haven’t examined it) 54,000 votes can change the result of the election?

Is that democratic?

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

waddo wrote:
Fri 13 Nov 2020 5:10 pm
Had enough of Trump/Biden fiasco, why bother anyway it's a USA problem in the end. I want a Brexit vote recount!!!!
:)

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Re: yes yes yes!!!!

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

Mowgli597 wrote:
Fri 13 Nov 2020 5:52 pm
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Fri 13 Nov 2020 4:57 pm
Biden has won them all by a razor thin majority. Of the more than 18.5 million votes cast if 54,000 votes went from Trump to Biden he wins all of them. If they stay with Trump he remains the president.........

........When you are seeing statistical anomalies is it undemocratic to question them.
This is what I find strange: according to what I read Biden received some 5 million votes more than Trump (circa 75 million vs 70 million). Yet you say (and I accept what you say but haven’t examined it) 54,000 votes can change the result of the election?

Is that democratic?
By all means check yourself I might be wrong but by my reading Biden got roughly;

60,000 more in Pennsylvania which has 20 votes
20,000 more in Wisconsin which has 10 votes
11,000 more in Arizona which has 11 votes
14,000 more in Georgia which has 16 votes.


so if half went from Biden to Trump then so do the 57 'seats' which keeps Trump in power.

It is a weakness in the first past the post system and constituencies/states but I guess if you did it purely on number of votes then you might find that big cities or large population centres would have more of an influence than might be fair.
What might appeal to a metropolitan city dweller won't necessarily appeal to a farmer in Kansas.
No system is 100% fair and I couldn't say whether the number of votes each state gives you is fair tbh.
I know in Britain the amount of votes you need to win certain Scottish constituencies is a lot lower than other constituencies.
To be balanced I've heard many Corynites will say 1200 votes the other way would have given them a majority in 2017. I don't know how true it is but when you know some seats were won by 50 votes it could well be true.

My point was to illustrate that although 150 million votes were cast it doesn't mean that you need to amend millions of votes to alter the result which would hopefully be impossible. To accidently miscount 54,000 votes does the job nicely.

Hopefully the will carry out a thorough investigation and we can be assured that;

The electoral rolls are accurate and dead people aren't voting.
People are identified when they vote in person.
People are only voting once
Postal votes are going to the right person and are counted correctly.
Every vote will be counted.

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Re: yes yes yes!!!!

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Post by Hedge-fund »

An interesting read concerning what is going on behind the scenes at the moment....

https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/donal ... ing-office

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Hedge-fund wrote:
Sat 14 Nov 2020 11:45 pm
An interesting read concerning what is going on behind the scenes at the moment....

https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/donal ... ing-office

Oh my goodness!

How complicated is that?

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Post by Groucho »

Keithcaley wrote:
Sun 15 Nov 2020 6:56 am
Hedge-fund wrote:
Sat 14 Nov 2020 11:45 pm
An interesting read concerning what is going on behind the scenes at the moment....

https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/donal ... ing-office

Oh my goodness!

How complicated is that?
A conspiracy theory-fuelled Republican propaganda website masquerading as a legitimate news and analysis resource, the internet and specifically the US is chock full of them. They occur all-too often when attempting to appeal to people unable to process their minority status...

They make claims such as "Another vote dump went for Joe Biden by a 92-8 margin, something that might have been plausible in Saddam Hussein’s Iraq, but not so much in the United States." With no evidence other than not liking how the numbers stack-up. They simply use the tactic of casting stones into the pond knowing the ripples will be spreading far and wide.... That you know who is an interested reader of such hog-wash should surprise no-one...

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Post by kibsolar1999 »

not only that (in the presidential election) the first pass the post system is undemocratic....
on top, eg, in Nebraska you get one Electoral Vote for 360k people, in Kansas one for 460k and in California one EV for 730k.
so, a farmer in Nebraska counts double as an Uber driver in California.
that has nothing to do with fairness and democracy. that is ancient s***.


imagine.. there is an election in your country... 32 % choose the one candidate, the other candidates get, eg, 28, 25 and 18%, and finally two thirds of the people are not represented in parliament. unbelievable, or?

or, there is a "parliament" which you can not elect at all. crazy, or?

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Re: yes yes yes!!!!

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

Groucho wrote:
Sun 15 Nov 2020 8:29 am

They make claims such as "Another vote dump went for Joe Biden by a 92-8 margin, something that might have been plausible in Saddam Hussein’s Iraq, but not so much in the United States." With no evidence other than not liking how the numbers stack-up. They simply use the tactic of casting stones into the pond knowing the ripples will be spreading far and wide.... That you know who is an interested reader of such hog-wash should surprise no-one...
Or claims that the Russians stole the election but they can get the left wing media to back that one up and I believe it because the orange man isbad.
They have had a week to look into this and I want them to move on and to look at how the Russians stole the 2016 election.

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

kibsolar1999 wrote:
Sun 15 Nov 2020 10:31 am
not only that (in the presidential election) the first pass the post system is undemocratic....
on top, eg, in Nebraska you get one Electoral Vote for 360k people, in Kansas one for 460k and in California one EV for 730k.
so, a farmer in Nebraska counts double as an Uber driver in California.
that has nothing to do with fairness and democracy. that is ancient s***.


imagine.. there is an election in your country... 32 % choose the one candidate, the other candidates get, eg, 28, 25 and 18%, and finally two thirds of the people are not represented in parliament. unbelievable, or?

or, there is a "parliament" which you can not elect at all. crazy, or?
It’s the worst system there is except for all the others.
You can go for PR or some kind of variation but it will ensure that you will give seats to the BNP and it will lose Labour a lot of their membership when they realise they might get some representation through the Socialist Workers Party and so return.

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

Groucho wrote:
Sun 15 Nov 2020 8:29 am

A conspiracy theory-fuelled Republican propaganda website masquerading as a legitimate news and analysis resource, the internet and specifically the US is chock full of them. They occur all-too often when attempting to appeal to people unable to process their minority status...


https://twitter.com/i/status/1327231468012236807

https://twitter.com/i/status/1327231330401325056

No we won!
The system is perfect, nothing to see here. Move on. Nothing to see here.

Georgia is an interesting example.

To remind you Obama couldn’t win it in two attempts and Clinton won it one out of two. Two great orators and popular candidates. They couldn’t manage it but sleepy Joe could.

Donald Trump won it in 2016 with over 2 million votes, in fact the highest a candidate had ever received. It was the sixth time on the trot the republicans won the seat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_St ... in_Georgia


Here is the democrats preparing the ground;

https://www.apmreports.org/story/2019/1 ... 0-election

It’s the usual stuff.
Voter deadline. Not fair we often don’t know how many we need until the night itself especially if we believe our own polls.
Vote ID. Not fair. We are the party to speak for black people but they can’t be expected to have the intelligence to get ID and you are racist to claim they could.

So we will block anything that which make an election more transparent.

So we get to 2020.
Record turn out. One might say an unbelievable turn out. 1.1 million absentee ballots.
Maybe the anti Trump vote has come out? Those that don't normally vote are coming out to get rid of Trump.
But Trump gets nearly 2.5 million votes, a huge rise. Maybe he isn't THAT unpopular?
But sleepy Joe gets 14,000 more. An unbelievable rise and just enough to win.
Be interested to see how the absentee mail in ballots break down.
So if you were Trump wouldn’t you want to have a very close look at Georgia?

95,801 voted for Biden and no other race.
818 voted for Trump and no other race.

Not impossible but unusual?

I've seen a few con men in action and I'm sure all have seen them on tv or film. There is always a point at which the mark suspects there is something that isn't quite right. Because after all you need them to believe something that sounds fishy.
Tower Bridge is for sale. If you lend The Queen a million she will pay you ten million back by the end of the week. Georgia is turning republican.
And the reaction is always faux outrage.
"Don't you trust me???"
Followed by someone to allay their fears. The person in charge of Tower Bridge, an alleged member of the royal staff. The media?

Of course some will come up with ludicrous claims that they have some anonymous witness burning voters for Trump etc etc.
But we are seeing a lot of different claims and a lot of statistical anomalies.

So again its 3 questions;

Would they do it?
Could they do it?
Did they do it?

I don't think anyone could honestly say no to the first two questions so why wouldn't you check out what they answer is to the third.

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Post by Groucho »

The reason for the very high number of votes is probably the very divisive nature of Trump's style.

The difference this time is Biden only had to not be Trump, Trump only had to continue acting the spoilt brat, pugnacious, braggart and bully to be the author of his downfall. But he just could control himself long enough to be in the slightest bit cool, calm and collected as befits the office.

Declaring the vote stolen even before the event was daft... but that's what he does very well, at daft - he's world class...

Now instead of realising he managed to throw the game he is blaming anyone and everyone for his loss... just like a megalomaniac would.

Maybe his mad use of Twitter was the final straw...

"Donald Trump has seemingly acknowledged for the first time that his Democratic rival Joe Biden won the US presidential election, but also reiterated his unsubstantiated claims of widespread election fraud.

"He won because the Election was Rigged," he wrote on Twitter.

Despite losing the 3 November election, Mr Trump has so far refused to concede.

He has launched a slew of lawsuits in key states but has not provided any evidence to back his claims of fraud.

His legal efforts have so far been unsuccessful.

On Friday, election officials said the vote was the "most secure in American history", the most direct rebuttal from federal and state authorities of the president's claims.

Nevertheless, Mr Trump has refused to acknowledge Mr Biden's victory until now."

BBC

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Post by Brinsley »

He'll probably also refuse to accept any divorce proceedings by his wife, Melania or the outcome!

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

Groucho wrote:
Sun 15 Nov 2020 3:37 pm

Declaring the vote stolen even before the event was daft... but that's what he does very well, at daft - he's world class...
He said the vote was suspicious back in 2016 when he won.

So if he waits to question the vote until after the election it's sour grapes, if he questions the vote while it is being carried out he's paranoid and if he questions it before the vote he's daft?

I remember the days when on election day they counted the votes and see who won. Now it seems you can use election day to see how many votes you are short and arrange a delivery.

Biden doesn't take office for 9 weeks. What's the rush?

I'm sure you would be delighted if this got waved through and they could go back to investigating the 2016 election.

Its the breathtaking hypocrisy that amuses me.

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

Brinsley wrote:
Sun 15 Nov 2020 4:06 pm
He'll probably also refuse to accept any divorce proceedings by his wife, Melania or the outcome!
TBF looking and listening to Biden I can see the hurry. After 47 years of zero activity it would be nice if he managed to achieve something before the rest of his brain cells go.

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Post by jofra »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Mon 09 Nov 2020 10:09 am
....Ok have a look at this video and tell me you feel comfortable with It?....

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KQ-YjGmpO ... oE&index=1
Then there's this... (resulting/contributing to this)
...which refers to -
The saga of Pizzagate: "...thousands of people are convinced that a paedophilia ring involving people at the highest levels of the Democratic Party is operating out of a Washington pizza restaurant." The fake story that shows how conspiracy theories spread...
...even by some individuals on here?

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

jofra wrote:
Sun 15 Nov 2020 11:28 pm
Then there's this... (resulting/contributing to this)
...which refers to -
The saga of Pizzagate: "...thousands of people are convinced that a paedophilia ring involving people at the highest levels of the Democratic Party is operating out of a Washington pizza restaurant." The fake story that shows how conspiracy theories spread...
...even by some individuals on here?
Why not being up the outlandish 9/11 theories? The JFK assassination?
Seems a very long winded way of avoiding a simple question. Is Biden’s behaviour appropriate and can you watch the video/s and honestly say you are comfortable with his behaviour?
Trump’s awful comments about women were always gratefully received though.

I agree there are some outlandish rumours going around about the vote counting but there are some things that warrant investigating.
The Georgia result seems suspicious to me for reasons I have outlined.
What amazes me is the same people who will still be chanting for another investigation on Russia supposed influence on the the 2016 in 20 years time want to rush this election through ASAP.
But the hypocrisy always is amusing.

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Re: yes yes yes!!!!

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Post by Hedge-fund »

Groucho wrote:
Sun 15 Nov 2020 8:29 am
Keithcaley wrote:
Sun 15 Nov 2020 6:56 am
Hedge-fund wrote:
Sat 14 Nov 2020 11:45 pm
An interesting read concerning what is going on behind the scenes at the moment....

https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/donal ... ing-office

Oh my goodness!

How complicated is that?
A conspiracy theory-fuelled Republican propaganda website masquerading as a legitimate news and analysis resource, the internet and specifically the US is chock full of them. They occur all-too often when attempting to appeal to people unable to process their minority status...

They make claims such as "Another vote dump went for Joe Biden by a 92-8 margin, something that might have been plausible in Saddam Hussein’s Iraq, but not so much in the United States." With no evidence other than not liking how the numbers stack-up. They simply use the tactic of casting stones into the pond knowing the ripples will be spreading far and wide.... That you know who is an interested reader of such hog-wash should surprise no-one...

Do you dispute any content in the article?

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I, as someone of tender age, follow the world political scene. Not only the USA but Australasia and the rest of the World. It is quite evident to me that the 'media' plays a huge part in creating misinformation and false news. It seems obvious to me that Murdoch, Soros and the 'Silicon Valley ' use their vast wealth and sway to pollute the information that is available to us mere 'vote fodder'. I am in no better position to evaluate the news from the USA than the other contributors to this post but the idea that one view or the other is 'fact' is absurd, to then go on and say that the 'others' view is not worthy of debate is quite honestly ridiculous .

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Post by Mowgli597 »

So how does one determine what is “fact”?

Since Ms Conway used the term (see below) it seems to have become accepted (at least by some people) that there can be more than one “fact”.

As I grew up “fact” was usually associated with another word - “truth”. The opposite was know as a “lie”, or a “falsehood”. Now, in my dotage, and especially during the term of office of the current US president (aided by so-called “social” media), that would appear not to be the case.

I give up!

"Alternative facts" was a phrase used by U.S. Counselor to the President Kellyanne Conway during a Meet the Press interview on January 22, 2017, in which she defended White House Press Secretary Sean Spicer's false statement about the attendance numbers of Donald Trump's inauguration as President of the United States.

“When pressed during the interview with Chuck Todd to explain why Spicer would "utter a provable falsehood", Conway stated that Spicer was giving "alternative facts". Todd responded, "Look, alternative facts are not facts. They're falsehoods."

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Re: yes yes yes!!!!

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Hedge-fund wrote:
Mon 16 Nov 2020 12:29 am

Do you dispute any content in the article?
No because he is waiting for his little handout debunking it. For now he is left with the tactic of attacking the messenger. It's the usual nonsense, I know what they are going to write before they do.
The next move will be to find an article slightly related that can be debunked or criticised.

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Re: yes yes yes!!!!

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Mowgli597 wrote:
Mon 16 Nov 2020 10:53 am
So how does one determine what is “fact”?

Since Ms Conway used the term (see below) it seems to have become accepted (at least by some people) that there can be more than one “fact”.

As I grew up “fact” was usually associated with another word - “truth”. The opposite was know as a “lie”, or a “falsehood”. Now, in my dotage, and especially during the term of office of the current US president (aided by so-called “social” media), that would appear not to be the case.

I give up!

"Alternative facts" was a phrase used by U.S. Counselor to the President Kellyanne Conway during a Meet the Press interview on January 22, 2017, in which she defended White House Press Secretary Sean Spicer's false statement about the attendance numbers of Donald Trump's inauguration as President of the United States.

“When pressed during the interview with Chuck Todd to explain why Spicer would "utter a provable falsehood", Conway stated that Spicer was giving "alternative facts". Todd responded, "Look, alternative facts are not facts. They're falsehoods."
So it is one side doing this? I think you have immediately revealed your bias there.

Facts like Trump's Muslim ban?
There are 50 Muslim majority countries but Trump issued an executive order that banned travelers from 7 of them. The 7 that most promoted terrorism.
Now you could say it was a bit over the top and not agree with it, I myself didn't, but it isn't a blanket Muslim ban as many would report is it? It is a terrorist ban on which the narrative has changed

The problem is what alternatives did he have?
Personally I would have carried on letting in nationals from those countries, as most are innocent, but I would have put them under far stricter security checks. But the left would have gone against my idea too as being racial profiling. waah waah waah
So Trump uses a hammer to smash a nut which will strongly appeal to the far right and which will appease the centre as it will make them safer. The only ones who will object are the far left who lets be honest will object whatever he does.

Both sides indulge in alternative facts but I believe that the left started it and are still best at it but the right are retaliating. The left being the biggest hypocrites in the world are crying foul because they don't have the field to themselves anymore.

The left will always favour the narrative over the facts.

As for alternative facts. I guess the best example I can give is Hiroshima. It is an undeniable fact that America dropped a bomb on Hiroshima. It seems to be fairly agreed how many died/suffered from that bomb. But what is disputed is why the bomb was dropped. Some will say it was dropped to punish the Japanese or intimidate the Russians others agree that it ultimately saved lives both American and Japanese. Maybe it might have been a mixture of the two? And that is where the alternative facts come in.
If you are on the far left or the America/Britain bad lobby, you will believe it was done to punish the Japs and intimidate the Russians and those are the facts you will believe and quote.
Maybe those are the facts you have been taught by our non partisan teachers?

Remember critical thinking isn't to equip you to think logically it is to think critically about capitalism, your country, Christianity and the family as a unit.

Another example of alternative fact is a headline which will roughly read "white supremist terror doubles and is the fastest growing terrorism.
You could easily produce facts that make that headline true even though Islamist extremism is the biggest cause of terrorism in the world by a massive majority.
But if there are 32,340 Islamist terrorist attacks this year as opposed to last year's 31,000 and white supremist terrorism has gone up from one attack to two then it has doubled hasn't it and is growing at a fast rate while Islamist terrorism is receding?
It's not really that clever but if you are already convinced or only skim headlines or are incapable of using logic then it might work.

It is another reason while the far left will prioritise capturing control of our schools and media over capturing control of say the Labour Party any day.

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Re: yes yes yes!!!!

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Up the Reds. wrote:
Mon 16 Nov 2020 10:37 am
I am in no better position to evaluate the news from the USA than the other contributors to this post but the idea that one view or the other is 'fact' is absurd, to then go on and say that the 'others' view is not worthy of debate is quite honestly ridiculous .
Remember you are not allowed to use logic etc as that will be anecdotal evidence.

I guess it is like selling a car that you know is rubbish and doesn't work. You need a really polished sales pitch and to make sure they don't look at another car or you have zero chance of ever selling your car.

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EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Mon 16 Nov 2020 12:03 pm
Up the Reds. wrote:
Mon 16 Nov 2020 10:37 am
I am in no better position to evaluate the news from the USA than the other contributors to this post but the idea that one view or the other is 'fact' is absurd, to then go on and say that the 'others' view is not worthy of debate is quite honestly ridiculous .
Remember you are not allowed to use logic etc as that will be anecdotal evidence.

I guess it is like selling a car that you know is rubbish and doesn't work. You need a really polished sales pitch and to make sure they don't look at another car or you have zero chance of ever selling your car.
Oh you two - 'get a room' then you can stroke each other all night whilst knowing you are of one mind....

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Groucho wrote:
Mon 16 Nov 2020 12:24 pm

Oh you two - 'get a room' then you can stroke each other all night whilst knowing you are of one mind....
I think you've already done the insults.
You've done attack the messenger if you can't get at the message go for the messenger.
Censorship/closing down the thread.
Faux outrage.
False equivalence.
Double standards.

I'll check and get back to you on the next phase, I think it might be the coordinated pile-on.

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🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗 ETS, you bring the efes and I'll bring the bottle of red and is it to be Chinese or Indian ?? My arrogant, bigoted father-in-law used to say ...'I once thought I was wrong but of course I was mistaken' !!! By the way Just had a new stone wall built somewhere you could come and bang your head against !!

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EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Mon 16 Nov 2020 12:40 pm
So it is one side doing this? I think you have immediately revealed your bias there.
Have I? I was merely pointing out the origin of the phrase. Since then it has been used extensively by many people but, it seems to me, the most influential being the office of allegedly the most powerful person in the world.

Incidentally you’ve just proved your own maxim and made an ad hominem attack the first part of your response.

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Mowgli597 wrote:
Mon 16 Nov 2020 1:39 pm

Have I? I was merely pointing out the origin of the phrase. Since then it has been used extensively by many people but, it seems to me, the most influential being the office of allegedly the most powerful person in the world.
Do me a favour ;)
Yes it all started with Trump. I know Orwell was very prophetic in a lot of his writing but he wasn't that good.

Mowgli597 wrote:
Mon 16 Nov 2020 1:39 pm

Incidentally you’ve just proved your own maxim and made an ad hominem attack the first part of your response.
Did I call you an idiot or worse? No I pointed out that you revealed your bias by the way you zeroed in on Conway for something that has gone on for years. Whether you call it spin, alternative facts etc it is all the same thing.

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Up the Reds. wrote:
Mon 16 Nov 2020 1:12 pm
🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗 ETS, you bring the efes and I'll bring the bottle of red and is it to be Chinese or Indian ??
I hope you don't mean Chinese or Indian red wine!
I have been pleasantly surprised by how good the local red wine is but as the Chinese have been known to mix Petrus with coca cola I am a bit dubious to how good their red is tbh

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😋😋

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Post by Mowgli597 »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Mon 16 Nov 2020 1:56 pm
Mowgli597 wrote:
Mon 16 Nov 2020 1:39 pm

Have I? I was merely pointing out the origin of the phrase. Since then it has been used extensively by many people but, it seems to me, the most influential being the office of allegedly the most powerful person in the world.
Do me a favour ;)
Yes it all started with Trump. I know Orwell was very prophetic in a lot of his writing but he wasn't that good.
I’m sorry but I don’t understand the reference to George Orwell and the use of the phrase “alternative facts”.
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Mon 16 Nov 2020 1:56 pm
Mowgli597 wrote:
Mon 16 Nov 2020 1:39 pm

Incidentally you’ve just proved your own maxim and made an ad hominem attack the first part of your response.
Did I call you an idiot or worse? No I pointed out that you revealed your bias by the way you zeroed in on Conway for something that has gone on for years. Whether you call it spin, alternative facts etc it is all the same thing.
Thank you for not calling me an idiot. But you still “went for the man” in your reply before addressing what I was saying (which, as you do often point out yourself when addressing other respondents to your posts) you have failed to do.

I was referring to the actual phrase “alternative facts” which, from what I can find, originated with Ms Conway. Again you are doing what you accuse others of and are trying to confuse the issue by referencing “spin .... etc”.

From https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/suffer-the-children/201701/the-historical-origin-alternative-facts:

“Groucho Marx once said: "Who are you going to believe, me or your own eyes?" It seems that President Trump's press secretary Sean Spicer, as well as Trump himself and one of his senior advisors, recommends the former. They insist that we believe what they say, rather than what what our own eyes tell us.

“Looking at aerial photographs of Trump's inauguration and Obama's 2009 inauguration, our eyes tell us that the crowd at Trump's was nowhere near as large as the crowd at Obama's. Obama's inaugural crowd reached all the way back to the Washington monument, whereas Trump's reached nowhere near that marker.

“Conway's introduction of "Alternative Facts"

“Not wanting the public to recognize this fact, Trump senior advisor Kellyanne Conway told Chuck Todd on Sunday's Meet the Press that Spicer was not telling a falsehood when he insisted that Trump's crowd was larger. He was simply giving "alternative facts".”

This is not spin. What Spicer said, and what Conway tried to defend, was a lie.

“Alternative facts” are lies.

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Re: yes yes yes!!!!

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Post by Hedge-fund »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Mon 16 Nov 2020 11:25 am
Hedge-fund wrote:
Mon 16 Nov 2020 12:29 am

Do you dispute any content in the article?
No because he is waiting for his little handout debunking it. For now he is left with the tactic of attacking the messenger. It's the usual nonsense, I know what they are going to write before they do.
The next move will be to find an article slightly related that can be debunked or criticised.

I'm sorry that's completely lost me.

I don't know who the "he" you refer to is.

I tried to show what was maybe going on in the trump camp behind the scenes and you said the source of the article was unreliable.

I can't see anything in it that is false.

I still say Biden won fairly but that doesn't mean Trump is vacating any time soon and the article may show the reasoning behind it.

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Up the Reds. wrote:
Mon 16 Nov 2020 1:12 pm
🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗 ETS, you bring the efes and I'll bring the bottle of red and is it to be Chinese or Indian ?? My arrogant, bigoted father-in-law used to say ...'I once thought I was wrong but of course I was mistaken' !!! By the way Just had a new stone wall built somewhere you could come and bang your head against !!
Which is more than could do on Trump's 'beautiful wall' which has a magnificent 12 mile extension due to The Donald in 4 years, none of which has been funded by Mexico even though that was his promise...

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Obama's crowd was undoubtedly bigger although I remember that some of the published photo's of Trump's crowd was taken at times when very few people would be there for any candidate such as early in the morning as if to prove that Trump had no popular support.

Obama got a much bigger crowd and Trump has one hell of an ego and a very thin skin no one disputes that. He will also aim for the stars in the hope of hitting a tree.
But he did get a decent turnout and let's bear in mind that the inauguration is held in Washington which is solidly Democrat country. Were the inauguration held in Texas or Kansas then no doubt a Republican would always get a bigger crowd no matter how poor a candidate they were or how strong the Democrat candidate was. So the size of the crowd is pretty irrelevant tbh. Obama was a marvelous orator and showman and his speeches and rallies were electric. That said he would envy the numbers that sleepy Joe has produced so I guess Biden must be the better orator? Have I come up with an alternative fact, spin or a logical bit of critical thinking there?

What we are seeing and it is from both sides is spin and 'facts' to bolster narrative. For example there was a picture a few months ago which purported to show an Israel soldier abusing a Palestinian. A sharp eyed viewer noticed that the lapels of the Israeli soldier were in Spanish and it turned out that the incident took place in South America. That isn't to say that there aren't examples of Israeli soldiers abusing Palestinians but you have to question whether they are as numerous as some would make you believe if they have to import some?

It has gone on for years so to pick out a phrase and twist it that only one side is doing this stuff is disingenuous to say the least.

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Hedge-fund wrote:
Mon 16 Nov 2020 2:54 pm

I'm sorry that's completely lost me.

I don't know who the "he" you refer to is.

I tried to show what was maybe going on in the trump camp behind the scenes and you said the source of the article was unreliable.

I can't see anything in it that is false.

I still say Biden won fairly but that doesn't mean Trump is vacating any time soon and the article may show the reasoning behind it.
I never said the source of the article was unreliable I think you might be confusing me with this 'he'?
Groucho wrote:
Sun 15 Nov 2020 8:29 am

A conspiracy theory-fuelled Republican propaganda website masquerading as a legitimate news and analysis resource, the internet and specifically the US is chock full of them. They occur all-too often when attempting to appeal to people unable to process their minority status...

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Groucho wrote:
Mon 16 Nov 2020 3:03 pm

Which is more than could do on Trump's 'beautiful wall' which has a magnificent 12 mile extension due to The Donald in 4 years, none of which has been funded by Mexico even though that was his promise...
Ah I wondered when the wall would be bought up. :)
Sorry I cut the ground from under the Muslim ban which isn't actually a Muslim ban,

The wall has always struck me as a flawed idea playing to the gallery tbh.
A lot of Americans have concerns about the unrecorded migration from Mexico so Trump dumbed it down it did something to appease them. I guess you could bury people under detail that you are doing this or that which people can see through as making zero difference or you can produce something very visual like a wall?
I guess the correct way would have been to completely ignore their concerns, try to assuage them with some false statistics and label them as fascists for even voicing those concerns?

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Post by Hedge-fund »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Mon 16 Nov 2020 3:15 pm
Hedge-fund wrote:
Mon 16 Nov 2020 2:54 pm

I'm sorry that's completely lost me.

I don't know who the "he" you refer to is.

I tried to show what was maybe going on in the trump camp behind the scenes and you said the source of the article was unreliable.

I can't see anything in it that is false.

I still say Biden won fairly but that doesn't mean Trump is vacating any time soon and the article may show the reasoning behind it.
I never said the source of the article was unreliable I think you might be confusing me with this 'he'?
Groucho wrote:
Sun 15 Nov 2020 8:29 am

A conspiracy theory-fuelled Republican propaganda website masquerading as a legitimate news and analysis resource, the internet and specifically the US is chock full of them. They occur all-too often when attempting to appeal to people unable to process their minority status...

Ah right.

I'll bow out now as I think the thread has gone off in an essay swapping tangent.

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Post by Groucho »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Mon 16 Nov 2020 3:21 pm
Groucho wrote:
Mon 16 Nov 2020 3:03 pm

Which is more than could do on Trump's 'beautiful wall' which has a magnificent 12 mile extension due to The Donald in 4 years, none of which has been funded by Mexico even though that was his promise...
Ah I wondered when the wall would be bought up. :)
Sorry I cut the ground from under the Muslim ban which isn't actually a Muslim ban,

The wall has always struck me as a flawed idea playing to the gallery tbh.
A lot of Americans have concerns about the unrecorded migration from Mexico so Trump dumbed it down it did something to appease them. I guess you could bury people under detail that you are doing this or that which people can see through as making zero difference or you can produce something very visual like a wall?
I guess the correct way would have been to completely ignore their concerns, try to assuage them with some false statistics and label them as fascists for even voicing those concerns?
It was meant to be satire based on the wall brought up by your new bff.... you really must try harder... or maybe that's your best.

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Trump is a megalomaniac, pathological, self-serving, narcisstic f**k-wit.
End of story!

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Groucho wrote:
Mon 16 Nov 2020 6:40 pm


It was meant to be satire based on the wall brought up by your new bff.... you really must try harder... or maybe that's your best.
My apologies but in my defence I’m used to satire being amusing.
Nope it’s not my best, keep them coming

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Brinsley wrote:
Mon 16 Nov 2020 7:58 pm
Trump is a megalomaniac, pathological, self-serving, narcisstic f**k-wit.
End of story!
Couldn’t argue with that and I’m sure a fair percentage of the 70 odd million who voted for him would agree. Sad that I and they still think he is a better bet than sleepy Joe both for Britain and America.

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EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Mon 16 Nov 2020 8:44 pm
Brinsley wrote:
Mon 16 Nov 2020 7:58 pm
Trump is a megalomaniac, pathological, self-serving, narcisstic f**k-wit.
End of story!
Couldn’t argue with that and I’m sure a fair percentage of the 70 odd million who voted for him would agree. Sad that I and they still think he is a better bet than sleepy Joe both for Britain and America.
It is sad that you think that, but as you do, there is no hope that you can be sensible.

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Groucho wrote:
Tue 17 Nov 2020 7:08 am

It is sad that you think that, but as you do, there is no hope that you can be sensible.
Sensible is to ignore things that don't make any difference to how someone runs a country.
It's running a country not X Factor.
Sensible is to not be influenced by the press.
Under Trump black unemployment and poverty is the lowest it has ever been.
Personally I think that is more important than mistakenly calling someone a coloured person rather than a person of colour or whatever the semantical tripwire the left have put out this week.

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