America - Attempted coup by Trump Supporters

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Re: America - Attempted coup by Trump Supporters

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Post by Dalartokat »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Thu 07 Jan 2021 3:32 pm
Dalartokat wrote:
Thu 07 Jan 2021 2:41 pm

What else do you want to call it, Desperate Coup, Attempted Coup, Mob Coup, Seige, Element of Surprise, Day of Violence, Storm at Capital Hill.
I'd call it what it was, a violent demonstration and I won't argue it, like all violent demonstrations, was wrong. But lets not be hypocritical here, had Trump won we would have seen the same.
Yep, that one has been used as well, as well as “Invaders”...as with all contributors, you have your opinion and my opinion is to disagree and do not believe that Democrats would have acted the same and other contributors throughout the day in the media have shared the same views and that’s their opinions. Whose right and whose wrong, only time will tell.
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Re: America - Attempted coup by Trump Supporters

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Post by Wines Of The World »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Thu 07 Jan 2021 5:09 pm
Yes whatever you wrote is 100% right Erol, I'm done with this nonsense.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I've just found a dummy/pacifier in catalkoy covered in spit
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Re: America - Attempted coup by Trump Supporters

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

Wines Of The World wrote:
Thu 07 Jan 2021 6:04 pm
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Thu 07 Jan 2021 5:09 pm
Yes whatever you wrote is 100% right Erol, I'm done with this nonsense.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I've just found a dummy/pacifier in catalkoy covered in spit
Hey if they confirm Trump’s a fascist guess he can count on your vote. You’ll have no worries passing for a yank. You’ve got the ‘build’

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Re: America - Attempted coup by Trump Supporters

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Post by kibsolar1999 »

You are 100% right Kibsolar.
thank you.
but,
for what reason a vote in a city is less worth as one in a rural area?
in some cases i could understand this..but not to that extent (senate/house) and definitely not in a presidential race.

btw, we do have voting stations in german prisons. why not?
we also have a voting right for life, even if we are living abroad.

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Re: America - Attempted coup by Trump Supporters

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Post by Wines Of The World »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Thu 07 Jan 2021 6:37 pm
Wines Of The World wrote:
Thu 07 Jan 2021 6:04 pm
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Thu 07 Jan 2021 5:09 pm
Yes whatever you wrote is 100% right Erol, I'm done with this nonsense.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I've just found a dummy/pacifier in catalkoy covered in spit
Hey if they confirm Trump’s a fascist guess he can count on your vote. You’ll have no worries passing for a yank. You’ve got the ‘build’
Fascists,Trump never. A great far righter

Gets my vote every day

(Oo)
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Re: America - Attempted coup by Trump Supporters

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Post by erol »

What ever he is in terms of fascist or great far righter, the fact remains that he lost the election, failed in all legal and constitutional attempts to have it overturned, failed in all attempts to have others illegally change the result (phone call to Georgia governor, pressure on biden to illegally change result and countless other examples ) and continued to peddle outrageous lies to his base with the specific intent to incite them to rise up in the hope that this could change the result. No one who actually cares about democracy can consider this acceptable and that includes life long republicans like Mitch McConnell who were prepared to stand by and support Trump up until this point. I still think impeachment is necessary and possible along with chapter 25 as another option. If he is allowed to do this kind of thing with impunity then it is an invitation for the next nutter, be they right or left, to try the same thing and more.

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Re: America - Attempted coup by Trump Supporters

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Post by desih »

Genuine question. Is the person calling themselves 'enjoying the sun', is he, like, a Sun newspaper reader? Does he get his beliefs from the Sun newspaper, is there some connection? Just wondering!

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Re: America - Attempted coup by Trump Supporters

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Post by sophie »

Message 8, its easy to see how they got in the building. Compare what the police were wearing and tooled up with on the steps of the Senate then compare how they behaved and what they were wearing on the steps of the Senate house during the Black Lives Matter protests. (they resembled something from a sci fi movie) Also scan the mobile phone footage taken within the building and you can see white police a) running away b) taking selfies with rioters c) patting rioters on the back. You can clearly see which side was up, but that's the US for you.

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Re: America - Attempted coup by Trump Supporters

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Post by kibsolar1999 »

Lots of these black people will never be able to remember that as it's too complicated. They managed to arrange a postal vote but let's not push it.

I can hardly believe that I've just read what you've posted ETS, if you honestly believe this then its out and out racism and thats not 'faux outrage'.
Where are the mods?

no no no, no mods. pls keep going... no "cancel culture" .
we all want to know whether some members are right, far right or racist/facists. and /or ignorant only but smugly anyway...

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Re: America - Attempted coup by Trump Supporters

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Post by kibsolar1999 »

sophie, msg 59
oh yes. a couple of resignations already...
and more, i guess much more will come out.

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Re: America - Attempted coup by Trump Supporters

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Post by Mowgli597 »

Medjoul1 wrote:
Fri 08 Jan 2021 9:45 am
Lots of these black people will never be able to remember that as it's too complicated. They managed to arrange a postal vote but let's not push it. [quoting an earlier message from Enjoying the Sun]

I can hardly believe that I've just read what you've posted ETS, if you honestly believe this then its out and out racism and thats not 'faux outrage'.
Where are the mods?
Whilst ETS and I may disagree on certain things I believe in that instance he was being ironic.

One thing I don’t think he is is racist.

Irony is difficult to put across in textual commentary.

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Re: America - Attempted coup by Trump Supporters

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Post by erol »

Mowgli597 wrote:
Fri 08 Jan 2021 12:08 pm
One thing I don’t think he is is racist.
going off topic here

for me racism is not in the 'person'. It is not even in what a person might say. It is in the refusal to 'drill down and follow where evidence takes you' having said something. That is where racism 'is' or 'lives'.

I might say 'white people are physically weaker than non white'. Or 'Cypriots are less considerate when parking that other people'. These statements, to me, are not in and of themselves racist. If however I say 'white people are physically weaker than others' but refuse to 'drill down' and present my 'evidence' and listen to others and their evidence, and follow that trail as best I can, then for me it is in that refusal that racism lives.

I may be rambling and I am definitely off topic. Apologies in advance.

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

Mowgli597 wrote:
Fri 08 Jan 2021 12:08 pm

Whilst ETS and I may disagree on certain things I believe in that instance he was being ironic.

One thing I don’t think he is is racist.

Irony is difficult to put across in textual commentary.
Thanks for the support but be assured that they know it was irony all right, it's the cancel culture game they play.
Or maybe it was just an editing error that took it out of several other quotes that were made ironically and so changed the context?
If you believe that I have a wonderful bridge to sell you

I won't go down the cliche of saying that some of my best friends........but I always lived in multi cultural areas in London so black or Asian people are no mystery to me.
Hence with regard to voter ID I wouldn't say it unfairly effects black people anymore than anyone else which is often the case forwarded and believe that I am sticking up for them and not being racist myself.

I'm so un-racist that I don't think it is essential to patronise black people or speak up for them or become outraged on their behalf.
Last edited by EnjoyingTheSun on Fri 08 Jan 2021 3:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: America - Attempted coup by Trump Supporters

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

erol wrote:
Fri 08 Jan 2021 12:37 pm

I might say 'white people are physically weaker than non white'. Or 'Cypriots are less considerate when parking that other people'. These statements, to me, are not in and of themselves racist. If however I say 'white people are physically weaker than others' but refuse to 'drill down' and present my 'evidence' and listen to others and their evidence, and follow that trail as best I can, then for me it is in that refusal that racism lives.
It's like black people and swimming. I have black friends who will say water is black man's kryptonite. :)

I don't know for a fact but I think it is something to do with body density but the evidence of my eyes that come Olympics time you will have say a US team where black men and women dominate running jumping, boxing etc etc and rarely supply even a swimmer for the relay team makes you think that there is a weakness there. I accept that there may be economic facts that give you an all white polo team or sailing team but not swimming.

Racism exists, there will always be bigots but despite people's best efforts to say otherwise it is fading.

I've always thought that probably 5% of people are bigots 5% of people are at the other woke extreme and 90% of people don't really give a toss.

In the 50s to 70s some of that 90% may have been unconsciously/consciously racist because they were getting used to foreign faces.
When my grandparents were young there used to be a black guy who was a racing tipster who used to walk up and down Petticoat Lane saying "I gotta horse." Basically he used to sell the tip. Now as black people were extremely rare back then the kids would run up and touch him for luck which must have driven him mental. I guess you could call that racist or ignorance or just a reaction to something unusual.

Since the 70s we have all got used to rubbing along together and whilst you still have that 5% bigots and 5% ultra wokes the 90% are now comfortable with BAME people. I think positive discrimination can cause problems but in the main we rub along well.
There will always be those that try to profit from division and my objection to BLM is they are amongst them.

It does infuriate me when kids who are barely 20 tell me racism within football is as bad as it ever was because it is nonsense and how the hell would they know.
I was on those terraces and it was horrendous as the black player got horrific abuse and then would get more racial slurs from his teammates disguised as banter.
Those days are thankfully pretty much over. The bigots can't hide out any more and it isn't thanks to the woke warriors.

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Re: America - Attempted coup by Trump Supporters

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Post by PoshinDevon »

Two off topic posts. Will leave them up however further off topic posts will be deleted.

Please remain on topic. Thanks.
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Re: America - Attempted coup by Trump Supporters

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Post by erol »

PoshinDevon wrote:
Fri 08 Jan 2021 1:18 pm
Two off topic posts. Will leave them up however further off topic posts will be deleted.

Please remain on topic. Thanks.
Noted.

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Re: America - Attempted coup by Trump Supporters

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Post by kibsolar1999 »

PoshinDevon wrote: ↑
Fri 08 Jan 2021 1:18 pm
Two off topic posts. Will leave them up however further off topic posts will be deleted.

Please remain on topic. Thanks.

well, an "attempted coup by trump supporters" and mention racism is not sooo off topic.

btw, in every ironic approach is a " little bit truth" is involved. and thats why we should avoid such when (potential) racism (and others) are involved. that is, besides others, what the "cancel culture" , which is at the beginning of finding a social consensus, is all about.
cancel culture is nothing really to worry about. same as PC, gender equality or others.
but this try to explain a trump supporter....

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Re: America - Attempted coup by Trump Supporters

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Post by PoshinDevon »

Erol said in his post it was off topic.

Whilst we try to let a topic run, there have been instances recently where very quickly a discussion goes off topic. The “off topic” discussion may well be very interesting but when we start start to receive complaints we have to consider taking action. Sometimes this means that mods have to spend time separating out different posts and creating a new topic. This is time consuming and a little tedious, plus often the topic doesn’t flow or read well. Sometimes it’s just easier to delete posts. Of course whatever we do not everyone will agree.

Hence we ask please try to remain on topic or consider starting a new topic.
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Re: America - Attempted coup by Trump Supporters

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Post by Deniz1 »

His last two tweets before he was permanently removed were related to watch for 17th January and he wont be going on Jan 20th Im sure Biden is relieved about that. But are those hidden messages for more trouble?

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Re: America - Attempted coup by Trump Supporters

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

No arguments with him being shut down the world won't be a poorer place but I note for example that videos putting the view that the dangers of covid are taken down from youtube too. I'm sure if they could get people with an opposing view of climate change taken down they would do. It's certainly been called for.
This would be while videos of Islamic extremists or views of the same on Twitter are left up.

Still Trump's out and they just censoring wrong thought so no problem eh.

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Post by Wines Of The World »

Drunken Nancy is chomping at the bit

USA is trying to right itself after a mob fomented by President Donald Trump staged a deadly attack on the Capitol Wednesday just as Congress was affirming his electoral ouster. But with 11 days left in Trump’s term, House Democrats are taking no chances and plan to fast-track a second impeachment Monday if he doesn’t resign. While there isn’t time to try Trump in the Senate, legal scholars say senators could convict him after he leaves office, barring a return to power. In the meantime, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said Friday that she’d spoken to the nation’s top general about curbing the president’s orders, especially those involving nuclear weapons.
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Post by Groucho »

Wines Of The World wrote:
Sat 09 Jan 2021 6:32 pm
Drunken Nancy is chomping at the bit
What evidence can you present that she is drunk?

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Post by Wines Of The World »

Groucho wrote:
Sun 10 Jan 2021 1:37 pm
Wines Of The World wrote:
Sat 09 Jan 2021 6:32 pm
Drunken Nancy is chomping at the bit
What evidence can you present that she is drunk?
It's my nickname for her just as yours is Groucho
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Re: America - Attempted coup by Trump Supporters

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Post by sophie »

Pence has just announced that he will attend the inauguration, so that's another one who has turned his back on Trump, that leaves the wife who will take him for millions if she has any sense and perhaps a couple of off spring. The others seem to be as bonkers as he is.

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Re: America - Attempted coup by Trump Supporters

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Post by kibsolar1999 »

"Drunken Nancy" is not a nickname, its alt-right "ooops".
and a very typical example of discrimination...

but we do not want to start with cancel culture, do we?

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Re: America - Attempted coup by Trump Supporters

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

kibsolar1999 wrote:
Sun 10 Jan 2021 3:32 pm
"Drunken Nancy" is not a nickname, its alt-right "ooops".
and a very typical example of discrimination...

but we do not want to start with cancel culture, do we?
How is it discrimination? Are you going for the anti woman angle or the anti Italian angle here out of interest?

As I understand it this started with a spoof article from a satirical website?
It's not unknown for politicians to be the victims of satire or at least not in the free world.
As far the alt-right nonsense that means if a left politician is satirised that must be sinister and undoubtedly some far right plot?
If it is a conservative politician that's fair game, all in good fun, no doubt true and I'll repeat it myself.

The new Spitting Image went after pretty much everybody as usual.
More Trump and Johnson than most but that's fair enough, a government is always going to be a prime target.
Michael Gove had a particularly cruel puppet which he apparently loved and took it in good sport.
The main complaints on its content were from the left in particular abort Greta's puppet and content.

I'm trying to figure out if its a lack of humour or just the usual double standards

I have no idea how widespread Pelosi's nickname is but by and large people don't get to pick their own nickname and they can quite often be less than complimentary.
As a tip, anyone who tells you that everyone calls them the boss or Nishy or something similar actually means no-one but them or those they have pushed calls them it and they generally have a seriously dodgy first name which they would rather you don't use.

As for cancel culture how that works is by saying something, satire in this case is a fascist or far right plot and closing it down.
Or closing down any opinion other than your own. This then means of course that you can point out that your opinion is obviously correct because the majority, or at least those that haven't been cancelled. obviously agree. You don't hear many saying otherwise. Well you can't because we got them all banned. Its also very useful for stopping a debate when you can't actually debunk the actual argument.
For example if you are in favour of a ban on fox hunting and preventing damage to the environment in undeveloped areas, protecting forests and animals and reducing air pollution then congratulations you are in favour of laws passed by the Nazi government in Germany.

I wouldn't say its not clever or effective but its a dangerous road to go down and probably very worthy of a different thread.

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Re: America - Attempted coup by Trump Supporters

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

erol wrote:
Mon 11 Jan 2021 2:12 pm
Pretty much agree with this.
I don't think it was technically beyond Twitter and others to let Trump keep his accounts active but to monitor his posts and step in when necessarily.

It's ok banning people but you have to be totally consistent which isn't always the case and whilst I don't necessarily buy into the martyr analogy you do make people curious as to why they have been closed down/cancelled. The world isn't a poorer place without hearing the views of a Katie Hopkins, Tommy Robinson or Trump but you run the risk of turning them into a Solzhenitsyn.

Its like the use of the word coup. To me you had a bunch of idiots deciding to have a violent demonstration. Without going into the ins and outs of how according to Hoyle the vote was, at most it was a violent demonstration against a democratic vote. Which would put it in the same category as many of the 'Not My President' violent demonstrations against Trump.
Who decides what is a coup and what is a demonstration which is someone's democratic right? What is police taking vigorous action to stop a demonstration getting out of hand and what is police brutality? What is softly softly policing and what is police abstaining from their job of maintaining law and order? Depending on what the demonstration is about you might have a different answer. The lines get blurred.
On both sides you have the majority demonstrating peacefully with a hardcore of activists looking to cause trouble.


No one reasonable would argue with the banning of hate speech but then who decides what is hate speech?
A KKK leader saying lynch black people or even segregate them or deny them the vote? Yes that would qualify for any reasonable minded person and is an easy catch.
A scientist putting a view that climate change might be exaggerated? I've heard that labelled hate speech. Not in my view and I would hope not in the view of any reasonable person. Even one who holds totally different views to mine on it.
I guess you could extend bans to eliminate any views that are contrary to the majority consensus which in scientific terms would at one time have banned a hell of a lot of scientists who made incredible breakthroughs.

Then if you remove differing opinions you will create a consensus albeit an artificial one.

The problem with tyrants and totalitarian regimes is they don't start off by saying I will bring in censorship, remove free elections, imprison and murder all opposition. It is always a far more gradual and insidious process. Censorship will be bought in to stop harmful opinions infecting the ears of normal people. Opponents are imprisoned for security reasons and on and on.
But you always end up in the same place.

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

And then you have a biased activist huckster who has basically said 74 million Americans are pro fascist.
Always a smart move to alienate 47% of the people.
Do they never think if you label someone a fascist they might just think next time around; "Well I'll be labelled one anyway.......?"

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Post by erol »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Mon 11 Jan 2021 3:40 pm
And then you have a biased activist huckster who has basically said 74 million Americans are pro fascist.Always a smart move to alienate 47% of the people.
Do they never think if you label someone a fascist they might just think next time around; "Well I'll be labelled one anyway.......?"
I hear what you saying I really do. But it works the other way round right ? We just saw that did we not ?

You had a biased President that said 74 million Americans are pro communist*. It was a move smart enough alienate 47% and still secure power. For a while. Unfortunately to make it work it meant ignoring the dangers of investing someone like Trump with such individual power, that a president that follows the rules has, let alone one that breaks every one he can get away with.

Do they (I hate those terms used in that way - just who is they anyway?) never think if you label someone a socialist or communist or marxist they might just think next time around; "Well I'll be labelled one anyway.......?

Tyrants do not star off saying I will .... etc Can you not see how a good start for any would be tyrant would be to legitimately win an election by pushing the boundaries of 'popularisim' to the extreme, who once he has power then lays the ground work to claim that if he loses the next election it will be because of election fraud, who then when he loses launches 1000 lawsuits without any merit, pressures and bullies officials to jimmy the numbers for him and when all that fails he calls on his base to rise up and take over the legislature and all the other branches of the system that are the checks and balances against tyranny. That Trump is patently a flawed idiot for whom this could never be his actually plan is not the point is it ? We just saw 'primer' played out for any future would be tyrant, left or right, of how you do it. Or am I imaging that ?

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

erol wrote:
Mon 11 Jan 2021 5:44 pm

once he has power then lays the ground work to claim that if he loses the next election it will be because of election fraud, who then when he loses launches 1000 lawsuits without any merit, pressures and bullies officials to jimmy the numbers for him and when all that fails he calls on his base to rise up and take over the legislature and all the other branches of the system that are the checks and balances against tyranny. That Trump is patently a flawed idiot for whom this could never be his actually plan is not the point is it ? We just saw 'primer' played out for any future would be tyrant, left or right, of how you do it. Or am I imaging that ?
I agree Trump was always going to pull something out of his hat if he lost and be a sore loser and be a cry baby at the very least. But I do think that the election left a lot to be desired re transparency and the subsequent investigation. You can't complain about the legal challenges on this election but happily agree to 4 years of challenges to the last election.

Yes some knuckleheads were always going to question it and some were always going to float fake news etc but there are a few things that need to be explained with more clarity.
The fact that voter fraud is a rare event doesn’t mean it is an impossible event. Tower Hamlets?
It is also an accepted fact that postal votes do give more of an opportunity for fraud and there were a hell of a lot of postal votes due to covid.
There has been an incredible amount of fake news on this which at first sight can seem suspicious but with some logical thought can soon be discounted.
Examples of that are people publishing old voting rolls and saying more people voted than were registered. The lumps of votes favouring Biden over Trump suddenly appearing. Not illogical, Biden certainly got far more postal votes than Trump and if you count them in bulk at a certain point as would seem logical then it will appear skewered.

What did come to light was the vote counting didn’t seem to be terribly secure. There did seem to be occasions of unsupervised counting. The supervising left a lot to be desired. It's like justice. Not only must it be done it must be seen to be done.

What set my alarm bells off alarms me is certain results. There were a lot of outliers here. You could show me a lot of evidence that say Brixton voted BNP at the next election but my BS detector would be going off like crazy.
States went Democrat that even the most popular charismatic Democrat candidate couldn’t historically turn.
A high amount of wards, ones that are used as an indicator of election winners like Basildon is often used in the UK, Trump won.
Let’s be honest, Biden’s biggest fan wouldn’t call him a candidate to stir the soul. This is not an Obama or even a Clinton but he polled numbers they couldn’t have dreamed of.
I agree Trump was a divisive candidate and whilst you might not vote for Biden you might very well vote against Trump. Perfectly valid argument. But also note Trump’s vote didn’t collapse here, he pulled in millions more votes than he did in 2016.

All of those concerns could be no doubt allayed but not by the investigations I have seen so far. They have been more a coronation than an investigation.

Some may say well Republicans have signed off on these results but that overlooks two things.
1. Trump was never the Republican Party’s man. I’m sure if you would have asked the Republican Party to list their preferred candidates from 2016 in order I can safely bet Trump would be at the bottom.
2. The Republicans as a party are stuck between a rock and a hard place here, Trump has the lack of self-awareness and the thick skin to be seen as a cry baby sore loser but the Republican Party can’t be seen as such. Trump would happily condemn the Republican Party into the wilderness for 50 years if it meant winning a second term. But for the Republican Party it makes sense to swallow the result and rebuild and hopefully get a more agreeable candidate for 2024. So even if there was something that smelt I'm not 100% sure they would look too deeply.

I think even a neutral might be keen not to look too deeply. I'm not saying they would cover up any wrong doing but they would certainly be keen to not find any.
I always remember Lord Denning and the Birmingham 6 appeal. He got a lot of criticism for basically saying he couldn't accept the appeal because to do so would be tantamount to admitting that the whole West Midlands police force was bent. Now the fact that it actually was doesn't necessarily negate his point. It's along the lines of better that 100 guilty men go free than 1 innocent man......

So you might feel so what as long as Trump’s gone and I can buy into that. Biden if he stays healthy isn’t a worry for me. The VP, more of a worry.
Let’s be honest Biden is going to do very little, he never has and now has a jet to swan around in. 4 or even 8 years of him won’t do a lot of damage. I had no real problem with Blair, hell I even voted for Kinnock and would have for John Smith but Corbyn and his ilk seriously worried me re future democracy. Trump wasn't my cup of tea but I wasn't terribly concerned about him.
I would always favour a successful businessman as a leader but Trump doesn't tick that box.

Personally I think that Trump run out of ego and a thirst for publicity. I don’t think he honestly believed he would ever win and actually have to put a shift in.
Generally Presidents are front men. They are as good or poor as their advisors. You hope that a sensible President hires the best people for the various jobs rather than his friends or son-in-law but tbh every President in history is guilty of putting their friends in positions of influence. It’s probably not only cronyism I guess you pick who you feel you can trust.
I can remember when Reagan first stood for the Republican nomination in 1976. To us in Britain it was publicised as a joke. This ex ham actor running for the job of running the free world. But he eventually won through against Carter who was a decent man but totally out of his depth. Reagan got the job and is acknowledged as a very successful President.

Let’s be honest here, Trump has had some terrible publicity and much of it deserved. In fact he has had the worst publicity of a President since Bush Jnr and it started from pretty much the minute he first stood let alone got elected.
Before that the worst publicity record was held by Reagan. Before that Nixon. Although tbf Nixon was deeply flawed. But there is an obvious pattern here. If a mixture of FDR, JFK and Mother Theresa was elected as a Republican President they are going to get an extremely rough ride from the media.

Obama though a guy I would certainly have a beer with and one of the greatest orators of the last 50 years was a decidedly mediocre President at best but was lauded in the media.
Trump no doubt appealed to the bigots but a small percentage of bigots doesn’t get you elected. I think what appealed in the main was he was an outsider. He wasn’t a professional politician spouting off the same inane sound bites while not doing much. Telling the people what they want rather than listening to what they want. The Americans in 2016 had a choice of Hilary, not the most honest lady, professional politician and not as likeable as Bill so they took a punt. Labelling a large percentage of your own people as deplorables wasn't the greatest move.

Now Trump has had his successes and failures and has said some indefensible stuff.
You may think he has made a pigs ear of covid but let’s remember when he stopped flights from China, Biden and a lot of others called it xenophobic. When he put a temporary ban on 7 countries which seemed to be most involved in terrorism it was called a Muslim ban. There are 30 Muslim majority countries and he temporarily banned flights from a few. Now it might not have been a particularly well thought out or effective policy but it wasn’t a Muslim ban imo.

Trump speaks before he engages his brain. Couple that with his pig headedness where he would ride roughshod over sensible advice he is a dream for those who wish to publicise his latest inane loopy comment.
However that didn’t seem to be enough. There are countless examples of his comments being edited, taken out of context or misquoted. There are several videos of him apparently giving an answer to a question which on inspection of a fuller video is him answering a totally different question.
So he has been victim to some pretty dirty tactics imo. That’s not to say he is the only politician that has happened too but I do believe it hit new peaks with Trump.
The thing is it was unnecessary, let him ramble on, he is dumb and inarticulate enough to bury himself anyway.
I think he has deserved much of the hatchet job that has come his way but it would be disingenuous to say had he had not deserved it that it wouldn’t have happened anyway.
This gilding the lily is a very dangerous road to go down even when it is done with the best of intentions.
Examples being the police being 100% that a person did a terrible crime but unfortunately there isn’t enough evidence to get a conviction. So they create some or bury evidence that proves innocence.
It generally works well. The person who robbed ten Nat West Banks ends up doing time for the HSBC robbery he had nothing to do with. It’s not fair but there is a sort of justice there and maybe far more justice than if he got away scot free. The problem is that is the sort of attitude that leads to miscarriages such as the Birmingham 6.

What is the danger is just ignoring people’s concerns about the vote. If it was on the level have a thorough investigation and confirm it. If they discover some wards were dodgy then publicise it or not but tighten it up. It needs it.
Don’t brush it under the carpet. Those idiots were always going to have a demonstration if they didn’t get their own way. I would also say they were probably going to do it no matter what Trump said.
Why not they have seen others do the same and get away with it?
What is of future concern is if something was fiddled once it can be fiddled again if not fixed.
Also let’s ensure those voters who quietly voted for Trump and didn’t riot when it didn’t go their way are confident their vote actually counts.
Democracy only works if you feel you had a say and that the side that loses accepts the result. Not if we win you need to accept the vote but if you win we have the right to not accept the vote.
We aren't seeing much of that these days and both sides are equally guilty of it.

The world has improved considerably over the last 100 years no matter what some say but I do think we might be at a worrying crossroads here.
My worry isn't that we have dodged a bullet with Trump it's that someone worse may come along.

EnjoyingTheSun
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Re: America - Attempted coup by Trump Supporters

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erol wrote:
Mon 11 Jan 2021 5:44 pm
You had a biased President that said 74 million Americans are pro communist.
Did he say that or anything similar? I could imagine him saying only 50 people voted for Biden but I've never heard him say anything like that tbh.
As a rule I don't make a habit of listening to Trump. I take more of an interest if he is alleged to have said something and then when you look into it you end up thinking "welllll not really did he?

Biden isn't a worry for me. I think he is pretty underwhelming but hopefully he'll surprise me.
I think the VP's politics might be a bit more on the nose so stay healthy Joe.

Similarly with Starmer. He's not my cup of tea but he doesn't frighten me. Those that I still think have a hell of a lot of power in The Labour Party do frighten the me though. I would not be surprised if he doesn't last too long. I do also remember how Ken Livingstone took power of the GLC. Vote McIntosh, get Livingstone.
I would struggle to think of one thing I agreed with Tony Benn about but I wouldn't say he wasn't a decent man and he was certainly pro parliamentary democracy. I'd be interested in his opinion in some of those that take his name in vain nowadays.

History can repeat itself and I worry that people are beginning to feel that an extreme way forward might be the only way forward. I despise both communism and fascism. Without getting into the finer detail of either its the totalitarianism and inevitable murders and deaths that put me off of either.
Personally I don't think you will ever get fascism under the noses of the public. I think it is getting a worrying amount of traction but I put that down to protest votes. But do see a worrying tide of thinking that communism isn't that bad or it's never been done properly to date. After all equality for all is a pretty easy sell and difficult to argue against. Or as someone said, wonderful idea, wrong species!
Personally I don't think socialism of much strength works in practice but I don't think anyone who believes in it is a bad person and is fundamentally a good person if a little naive imo.

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Re: America - Attempted coup by Trump Supporters

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"What set my alarm bells off alarms me is certain results....
States went Democrat that even the most popular charismatic Democrat candidate couldn’t historically turn....
Let’s be honest, Biden’s biggest fan wouldn’t call him a candidate to stir the soul..."
A reasonable summation, BUT consider -
I suspect that on occasion (considerable numbers of) people (as I have) vote AGAINST rather than for...
And it may well be that in this case, people have decided that they do not like what they have (and previously voted FOR) - and have decided to amend their previous choice...
P.S. as to "...a worrying tide of thinking that communism isn't that bad..." - it never has and never will work with the human race - although it might (does?) work with hive-mind creatures (ants/termites/bees & etc.)....
In humans, it's a contra-survival trait.... :wink:

EnjoyingTheSun
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Re: America - Attempted coup by Trump Supporters

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jofra wrote:
Mon 11 Jan 2021 10:49 pm

I suspect that on occasion (considerable numbers of) people (as I have) vote AGAINST rather than for...
And it may well be that in this case, people have decided that they do not like what they have (and previously voted FOR) - and have decided to amend their previous choice...
Totally buy into that and Trump was certainly a candidate who you would think “anyone but him” but his vote went UP by 11 million voters so it’s not like his vote collapsed here.

I’ve been looking back on election numbers and it looks like the first time the incumbent got more votes and lost. So another unusual result. It could be easily explained but it does highlight an anomaly.

It’s rare for an incumbent to get less votes than last time and win but not unheard of.
Obama got 3.5 million less in 2012.
FDR got slightly less in 1940 but an insignificant amount. He dropped 1.7 million in 1944 but less people voted for obvious reasons

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