The Brexit effect

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kerry 6138
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Re: The Brexit effect

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Post by kerry 6138 »

.The UK is to formally ask to join The Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership-- or CPTPP-- on Monday. Among the 11 countries it already includes are Australia, Canada, Japan, and Vietnam.

......What!!, didn't we insular looking little Englanders pull up the draw bridge last year, so we could concentrate on turning back time to the glory days, why are we not concentrating on training the Home Guard incase the EU breaks and France invades Spain again.

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Re: The Brexit effect

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

kerry 6138 wrote:
Sun 31 Jan 2021 9:15 am
......What!!, didn't we insular looking little Englanders pull up the draw bridge last year, so we could concentrate on turning back time to the glory days, why are we not concentrating on training the Home Guard incase the EU breaks and France invades Spain again.
This isolationism is getting out of hand now.

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Re: The Brexit effect

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

waz-24-7 wrote:
Sat 30 Jan 2021 11:34 pm

Sometimes economy of scale and uniformity makes sense. In some it does not as you point out. Certainly trading standards such as food labeling and CE marking make sense.
Economies of scale are a wonderful economic concept and can save a company fortunes.
But as businesses get bigger they can also become bloated with bureaucracy which adds to costs and slows the business down.
Most things have an optimum size and the EU passed their optimum years ago.
Want to trade and share resources with France, Germany, Holland where everyone chips in? Who wouldn't fancy that?
Want to trade and share resources with Latvia, Estonia and Slovenia, they aren't the richest so you'll have to subsidise them, ok? Errr not so keen.
waz-24-7 wrote:
Sat 30 Jan 2021 11:34 pm

The UK forfeited the trade ticket because of the free movement of people issue. We wanted to control our borders from " undesirables" such as the Turkish who according to the red bus would be lining up on our borders. This was an error in my view and not what many voted for.
Do you have a door Waz? Do you lock it? If so why, do you think all your neighbours are thieves? Do you think everyone who visits your area is a thief? Wouldn't it be easier if the postman or Amazon put deliveries on your kitchen table? So you going to give them a front door key?

Wanting to control your borders is not racism it is common sense. Wanting to control immigration is not racism it is common sense. The fact that racists also want us to control our borders doesn't make the concept itself racist. I've no doubt most of them believe in the NHS and free education too, so does that mean those concepts are racist?

My only problem with Turkey joining the EU while Britain was a member is they would increase the population of the EU by 20% so how many of them would come to the UK because we are getting pretty full now.

On other points such as Judiciary, parliament, army, currency. I'm not interested as they have little benefit in my book. The negotiations did not go well but could have been better if we allowed for people movement.
[/quote]

I think most countries that are in the Euro bitterly regret it but if you are creating a new state you need to have a new currency I guess.
So not being able to write or control your own laws or parliament or having an independent army is of no importance as long as you can save filling out a couple of forms.

You accuse anyone who doesn't like the concept of the EU of being some sort of Nazi.
The Nazis were only able to invade most of Europe because of appeasers. These were not Nazis or bad people they were just people who would give on any and every principle to avoid a conflict.
The Nazis were only able to retain control of conquered territories and continue to conquer new territories because of collaborators and Quislings. These again were not usually Nazis or bad people. They were people that decided that having independence and a say in how your nation runs isn't THAT important. We can adapt to this new regime, who knows we might even do better.

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Re: The Brexit effect

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Post by MVP »

Well now I have seen it all !
An article in the Guardian condemning the incompetent EU while praising the British government.

The Guardian: The Observer view on the vaccine dispute with Brussels.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... h-brussels

So yet again a crazy German causes trouble in Europe while the EU counties hope the UK will save them

Plus ca change as they say in French

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Re: The Brexit effect

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

MVP wrote:
Sun 31 Jan 2021 9:58 am
Well now I have seen it all !
An article in the Guardian condemning the incompetent EU while praising the British government.

The Guardian: The Observer view on the vaccine dispute with Brussels.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... h-brussels

So yet again a crazy German causes trouble in Europe while the EU counties hope the UK will save them
It's difficult to defend the indefensible, usually The Guardian completely ignores anything that doesn't fit the narrative.

It's amazing that the Germans have such problems with the AstraZeneca vaccine and yet passed and distributed Zyklon B without a worry.

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Re: The Brexit effect

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Post by waz-24-7 »

PoshinDevon wrote:
Sun 31 Jan 2021 12:45 am
Waz

As you often say the debate has moved on. The U.K. has left the EU and a deal has been done. You are wasting your time regurgitating your pro remain views.

We are now discussing the Brexit effect which to my mind means things that have happened since the U.K. left. One topic we are discussing is how well or not the U.K. has handled it’s vaccination programme compared to the EU. Despite some forecasting last year that the U.K. was doomed to failure by opting out of the EU programme we know that is of course a pile of horse manure.

Northern Ireland's first minister said the move to trigger Article 16 of the NI Protocol was an "act of hostility". In response the Taoiseach (Irish Prime Minister) Micheál Martin said, it was a mistake on the part of the European Commission to signal its intention to trigger Article 16 and lessons would have to be learned.

In other news the UK is applying to join Asia-Pacific free trade pact CPTPP. Sounds positive to me.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55871373

Let’s look forward and see how things pan out for the U.K. and the EU.
Posh,
I have on several occasions stated that we have left the EU. That is accepted. My position remains that the UK made a mistake in leaving. I now support in due time .of course, a re join. A new Trading Union much like the Asia Pacific scenario is welcomed.
The vaccine as well as death rates issues are on the political field right now. The EU made errors on the vaccine position. The UK has made errors upon its handling of lock down and virus spread. This too is accepted and it is what parties do going forward that is of utmost importance.

Yes hostility and sabre rattling has emerged just days after the divorce. This type of rhetoric from where ever is not good for peace, co operation and prosperity. That is the bigger picture that I often refer too. What indeed can we expect going forward.?

The joining of the Asia Pacific Trading Union is very good news.

UK trade , particularly hard goods remains primarily local and with the EU. Is this trade under threat? I t is essential the EU and UK work hard to restore and build trading co operation. The kick off has not been promising. Fishing , logistics and performance arts industries are expressing difficulties already. I anticipate most businesses are seeing increased costs and difficulties in EU trade. I certainly am.
Lack of plan and strategy by the UK government is leaving many working people and businesses in loss.

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Re: The Brexit effect

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Post by PoshinDevon »

Waz

In your last post post you mention hostility and sabre rattling.

Who is acting hostile? Who is sabre rattling? Who is making threats and then withdrawing them? Who has made themselves look farcical over the last few days? Whose politicians are saying they made a big mistake? Whose politicians are asking questions about failing their citizens?

Lots of questions which I have no doubt will not be answered.,
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Re: The Brexit effect

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waz-24-7 wrote:
Sun 31 Jan 2021 10:33 am
I now support in due time .of course, a re join. A new Trading Union much like the Asia Pacific scenario is welcomed.
What would you say is a due time? 10 years? 40 years? A month?
Can you think of why a trading union will need you to give up your currency?
Or let's try this another way, what are your red lines to rejoining the EU. What would be a concession too far?
waz-24-7 wrote:
Sun 31 Jan 2021 10:33 am

UK trade , particularly hard goods remains primarily local and with the EU.
So it is isolationist to want to explore trading further afield?
Should we limit our trade to people of the same colour to ensure we are not seen as ultra right?
waz-24-7 wrote:
Sun 31 Jan 2021 10:33 am

The kick off has not been promising. Fishing , logistics and performance arts industries are expressing difficulties already. I anticipate most businesses are seeing increased costs and difficulties in EU trade. I certainly am.
Lack of plan and strategy by the UK government is leaving many working people and businesses in loss.
It's been a month. My memory isn't that clear but I doubt joining the EU was without teething problems. After all it certainly wasn't a quick fix as evidenced by us going to the IMF cap in hand.
The government has a lot on it's plate at the moment and probably can't concentrate on the many hurdles needlessly thrown in the way by bureaucrats.
It would have had 4 years to prepare but it spent them all ensuring that we would actually leave the EU as voted for by the people.

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Re: The Brexit effect

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Post by waz-24-7 »

Whilst the news of joining the Asia pacific trading Union.( 15 members to date.) is positive.
Lets be realistic.
The trade with the Asia Pacific region currently amounts to about 8% of GDP. This is partly so low because the region is distant and high cost European manufacturing is not competitive with low cost far east .

The 8% equates to what we do currently with Germany alone. A level of perspective and value should be considered. Regardless any trade is good trade in my book.

I say again.
It is trade with the EU that is the UK's single most important source of revenue. Revenue income to the UK pays for everything. The private sector after all pays entirely for the public sector that is health . services , defence etc. We are not dealing with Teething problems. This is real danger of loss.
We appear to be actively antagonising our EU customer base and my concern is that very quickly critical revenue for the UK economy could be lost.

The Government must act now and quickly. The sabre ratting over how badly the EU has done over vaccine roll out is simply irrelevant to the bigger picture. The Politics within the EU is also of little importance now we have left. The task is clear. Can the UK and its Government deliver against pre Brexit predictions upon trade with the EU and being outside the customs Union.
Indeed lets see how 2021 pans out.

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Re: The Brexit effect

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Post by waz-24-7 »

PoshinDevon wrote:
Sun 31 Jan 2021 10:52 am
Waz

In your last post post you mention hostility and sabre rattling.

Who is acting hostile? Who is sabre rattling? Who is making threats and then withdrawing them? Who has made themselves look farcical over the last few days? Whose politicians are saying they made a big mistake? Whose politicians are asking questions about failing their citizens?

Lots of questions which I have no doubt will not be answered.,
Posh,
I think your point is that it is the EU is sabre rattling and being somewhat hostile. That is not contested. We are the good guys...hooray but nothing gained I'm afraid. Divorce proceedings are never smooth and friendly and there are never any real winners. It is loss on both sides in this Brexit effect.
IN the bigger picture what importance is this upon the Brexit effect ? bar of course a good reason to leave. Small potatoes in my view.
Your questions upon politics within the EU that have no finite effect upon the UK and its citizens are of little importance or value.

You focus too much now upon issues and failures within the EU. Not important bar the wish for our customers to be prosperous so they can spend more money with UK business. I focus on a way forward for the UK whilst viewing the bigger picture. upon trade with the EU and wider.
The UK is in economic recession and businesses are struggling meeting post Brexit issues. The UK Government are failing to provide support , planning and strategy post Brexit. I think my previous post is also relevant

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Re: The Brexit effect

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Post by PoshinDevon »

You have accused the U.K. of being confrontational in the past but the events and actions of the last few days by the EU really takes things to another level. Reminds me very much of a spoilt child stamping there feet in a rage when they cannot get what they want.

There is so much smoke and mirrors in your posts, it’s difficult to really know where to try and attempt sensible debate. If I pick just one area, you will likely ignore the comments and throw in a dozen more.
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Re: The Brexit effect

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waz-24-7 wrote:
Sun 31 Jan 2021 11:30 am

I think your point is that it is the EU is sabre rattling and being somewhat hostile. That is not contested. We are the good guys...hooray but nothing gained I'm afraid. Divorce proceedings are never smooth and friendly and there are never any real winners.
With any battle on a point of principle you could say there are never any real winners.
The policy of appeasement in the 30s was not carried out because of a lack of patriotism, weakness or a desire to embolden Hitler. It was done by well meaning people to try and avoid at any costs the horror of a war.

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Re: The Brexit effect

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Post by waz-24-7 »

PoshinDevon wrote:
Sun 31 Jan 2021 11:48 am
You have accused the U.K. of being confrontational in the past but the events and actions of the last few days by the EU really takes things to another level. Reminds me very much of a spoilt child stamping there feet in a rage when they cannot get what they want.

There is so much smoke and mirrors in your posts, it’s difficult to really know where to try and attempt sensible debate. If I pick just one area, you will likely ignore the comments and throw in a dozen more.
And your point is please?
The EU and indeed the UK behaviour going forward is of importance now. Both parties are in a position of loss. Score card tat for tat is of no interest.
Both parties have real economic and pandemic issues to deal with. Hostility that is primarily as a result of Brexit is un helpful .

I believe my view and posts upon the bigger picture and the need for action cannot be clearer.

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PoshinDevon wrote:
Sun 31 Jan 2021 11:48 am
You have accused the U.K. of being confrontational in the past but the events and actions of the last few days by the EU really takes things to another level.
At some point people take a stand against bullies. If you have a complete blind spot and are totally pro the bully then it is easy enough to call taking a stand as being confrontational.
The U.K. decided to not simply wave through the EUs take on this and go their own way. It would have been far easier to simply hide in the majority and when it when wrong just say well everyone else did the same.
They could have been wrong in which case Waz and others would have gleefully pointed out the error but what they did was correct.
The took a brave stand and should be commended for it but at best a lot will ignore that try and brush it off and hold fire for when they don’t choose the right option.

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waz-24-7 wrote:
Sun 31 Jan 2021 11:56 am

The EU and indeed the UK behaviour going forward is of importance now. Both parties are in a position of loss. Score card tat for tat is of no interest.
Translation: I am hoping for a BRINO and if we decide to mirror any EU decision no matter how catastrophic then I will be delighted as all resistance to the wonder of the EU needs to be eliminated.

Waz I asked you what you think a reasonable period is before we rejoin the EU, any thoughts yet?
I can simplify the question into multi choice if you wish?
A. Six months
B. Five years
C. Forty years

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I have to say I am beginning to regret voting for Ursula von der Leyen

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Post by waz-24-7 »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Sun 31 Jan 2021 12:04 pm
waz-24-7 wrote:
Sun 31 Jan 2021 11:56 am

The EU and indeed the UK behaviour going forward is of importance now. Both parties are in a position of loss. Score card tat for tat is of no interest.
Translation: I am hoping for a BRINO and if we decide to mirror any EU decision no matter how catastrophic then I will be delighted as all resistance to the wonder of the EU needs to be eliminated.

Waz I asked you what you think a reasonable period is before we rejoin the EU, any thoughts yet?
I can simplify the question into multi choice if you wish?
A. Six months
B. Five years
C. Forty years
Mirror any EU decision?? Why on earth would the UK want to do that? The EU is now as I have said. A customer on one hand and a competitor on the other as EU free trade members attack UK suppliers.

Upon a re join successful campaign. That is a wait and see scenario. It is all down to how the UK economy performs outside the customs union.
Who knows we may ,as some take the view , be exceedingly successful. Flow of goods from the UK to offshore customers may startle even me.
I think within 5 yrs we will have a clearer picture on a course. Within 10 yrs a revised customs Union may be on the cards. What entry requirements? I can only guess.
With current hostilities however I see little shorter term promise of European based prosperity. Do you? Or possibly that doesn't matter within your tat for tat score sheet mentality.

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Re: The Brexit effect

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Post by PoshinDevon »

waz-24-7 wrote:
Sun 31 Jan 2021 11:56 am
PoshinDevon wrote:
Sun 31 Jan 2021 11:48 am
You have accused the U.K. of being confrontational in the past but the events and actions of the last few days by the EU really takes things to another level. Reminds me very much of a spoilt child stamping there feet in a rage when they cannot get what they want.

There is so much smoke and mirrors in your posts, it’s difficult to really know where to try and attempt sensible debate. If I pick just one area, you will likely ignore the comments and throw in a dozen more.
And your point is please?
The EU and indeed the UK behaviour going forward is of importance now. Both parties are in a position of loss. Score card tat for tat is of no interest.
Both parties have real economic and pandemic issues to deal with. Hostility that is primarily as a result of Brexit is un helpful .

I believe my view and posts upon the bigger picture and the need for action cannot be clearer.
My point is you accused the U.K. of being confrontational many times over the last few months and gloss over the hugest loss of face by the Eu. There high-handed and dictatorial behaviour has upset the serious press in a number of their own member states, for example Germany's Die Welt and France's Le Monde which have published some serious condemnations of their actions. They were always going to take every opportunity to kick the UK and in there eagerness have made a complete mess of the situation.

They could have better concentrated their efforts in helping AZ to improve productivity in their floundering plants based in the EU which are simply failing to match the outputs of the relatively successful plants in the UK. That would have at least have had a positive effect in the longer term on their own dilatory efforts to organise an effective vaccine supply for their own citizens.

As I understand it AZ are also producing the vaccine in India, Norway and Switzerland but no, the EU had to turn on the UK as the first resort.

If you stopped and debated one area it would be sensible but you have always chose to either ignore comments, gloss over them and throw in lots of other comments, then try and justify why.

Like I said it’s difficult to debate sensibly.
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Re: The Brexit effect

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Post by waz-24-7 »

PoshinDevon wrote:
Sun 31 Jan 2021 12:23 pm
waz-24-7 wrote:
Sun 31 Jan 2021 11:56 am
PoshinDevon wrote:
Sun 31 Jan 2021 11:48 am
You have accused the U.K. of being confrontational in the past but the events and actions of the last few days by the EU really takes things to another level. Reminds me very much of a spoilt child stamping there feet in a rage when they cannot get what they want.

There is so much smoke and mirrors in your posts, it’s difficult to really know where to try and attempt sensible debate. If I pick just one area, you will likely ignore the comments and throw in a dozen more.
And your point is please?
The EU and indeed the UK behaviour going forward is of importance now. Both parties are in a position of loss. Score card tat for tat is of no interest.
Both parties have real economic and pandemic issues to deal with. Hostility that is primarily as a result of Brexit is un helpful .

I believe my view and posts upon the bigger picture and the need for action cannot be clearer.
My point is you accused the U.K. of being confrontational many times over the last few months and gloss over the hugest loss of face by the Eu. There high-handed and dictatorial behaviour has upset the serious press in a number of their own member states, for example Germany's Die Welt and France's Le Monde which have published some serious condemnations of their actions. They were always going to take every opportunity to kick the UK and in there eagerness have made a complete mess of the situation.

They could have better concentrated their efforts in helping AZ to improve productivity in their floundering plants based in the EU which are simply failing to match the outputs of the relatively successful plants in the UK. That would have at least have had a positive effect in the longer term on their own dilatory efforts to organise an effective vaccine supply for their own citizens.

As I understand it AZ are also producing the vaccine in India, Norway and Switzerland but no, the EU had to turn on the UK as the first resort.

If you stopped and debated one area it would be sensible but you have always chose to either ignore comments, gloss over them and throw in lots of other comments, then try and justify why.

Like I said it’s difficult to debate sensibly.
Hmm
The actions of the EU against the UK are not productive or useful. Certainly they wish to save face and the current leaders face some serious questions from members.

You seem to want to dwell indefinitely on this failure whilst avoiding the bigger picture,.
The picture of the future relationship. Trade, co operation and mutual prosperity. The UK is in economic recession and the economic future is under threat as we venture out to seek prosperity. Neglecting our biggest customer and trading partner particularly as we have chosen to leave the free trade customs arrangement with them is in my view folly.

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Re: The Brexit effect

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Post by kibsolar1999 »

It's amazing that the Germans have such problems with the AstraZeneca vaccine and yet passed and distributed Zyklon B without a worry.
very funny. very entertaining.
btw, the italians also did not follow.. above 55 "not recommended".

and, btw, most probably astra is not the "game changer"... for herdimmunity you may need to vaccinate 100% of the population.
real game changers are the mRNA vaccines. most probably the coming "gold standart".
anyway,
funny also that you take on "nazi speech" (ultimate end game), as,
Everything points to the ultimate end game being a United States of Europe eg one nation.

no, that would be not the "end game".
tribes became villages, villages towns, chiefs counts, counties nations and counts kings.
and nations became united nations or kingdoms.
and it (nearly) always was opposed, because it is about power, about "old structures", nothing else. basically "small minded" and "max profit orientated for a few".
but even " forced unification" nearly always showed to be the better deal, bigger picture, better opportunities for all, in terms of economy, defense/attack, equality the lot.

do not tell me that it would take "less time" to make 27 bilateral deals instead one deal with the EU.
point is, you are not interested to make 27 deals. 4, 5,6 are enough. germany, netherlands, france, italy, spain, belgium. ah portugal, they have the Algarve..
all the others, you are not interested in. or you come around "big mouthed" with a "take it or leave it" tactic. unilateral.
you are not at all interested in eg, Cyprus / NC!
oh sorry... i forgot... tax reductions, military base and cheap kebabs, but nothing nothing else.

yes, the EU vaccination roll out is sort of a mess. Recently Martin Schultz, former president of the EU parliament was guest in a talkshow... and said that he has a "good idea" how this story went on... basically it was not the "blond german nazi girl" who messed it up, it was "everybody", incl the govs in the single countries.

be happy posh, be happy UK... imagine the EU would have bought all vaccines available incl export bans... and why not, UK did the same for (in 2020 covid) medicines starting back in 2019.

all bad, very bad.

it is bad enough that 16% of the world population basically bought 100% of all available and may soon to be approved "good" vaccines.
biontech, moderna, curevac, johnson, novavax, even most of astra. all go to the 16%.

the other 84% slowly but surely are getting very very angry about it, eg, while during summer 2020 the financing of the covac initiative was extremely slow, they (the 16%) bought the market empty and now the other 84 can expect vaccination in earliest 2022, the rest in 2023 /24.
nice eh?
nice also that south africa now must pay double for an Astra dose produced in India, as the EU/UK, ....
but soon, we can visit the next rave party and can feel good, because we can travel and "bring them some money" and , of course, enjoy the sun and our cheap kebab and, of course, force them to pay their foreign debts.

we do have MAGA, MEGA and also MEUGA caps in the offer. we also have MRGA, MCGA and MIGA caps.
or shall i say, KAG, KEG, KEUG... (eg, keep amerika great) caps?
who wants which?

it is a shitty battle and covid gets it all out. a lot more to come as some vaccinations.

no, the united nations of europe would not be "the ultimate end game".
the "ultimate end game" goes much further.

kerry
Germany wants to jump-start gene sequencing efforts to closely track coronavirus mutations and catch up with European nations such as Britain and Denmark which have taken the lead on decoding viral genomes.
yes, this question was also up .... why germany is so late in doing that?
the answer from experts was: that this was/is due to an "inner-european division of labor /labor share", we do other things...

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Re: The Brexit effect

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Kibsolar if you want to learn how to use the quote function I'll happily explain it. It will limit your ability to put words in people's mouths or misquote them but the offer is there if you want it?
kibsolar1999 wrote:
Sun 31 Jan 2021 1:31 pm

and, btw, most probably astra is not the "game changer"... for herdimmunity you may need to vaccinate 100% of the population.
real game changers are the mRNA vaccines. most probably the coming "gold standart".
Yep plenty of may and probably. It will probably do this. Oh it didn't? I only said it probably would. Also what may have happened if we hadn't done it?
Coulda, woulda, shoulda.
kibsolar1999 wrote:
Sun 31 Jan 2021 1:31 pm

no, that would be not the "end game".
tribes became villages, villages towns, chiefs counts, counties nations and counts kings.
and nations became united nations or kingdoms.
and it (nearly) always was opposed, because it is about power, about "old structures", nothing else. basically "small minded" and "max profit orientated for a few".
but even " forced unification" nearly always showed to be the better deal, bigger picture, better opportunities for all, in terms of economy, defense/attack, equality the lot.
Excellent you have just forwarded the case for the Soviet Union and the Eastern Bloc and all the freedoms and economic prosperity that brought.

It's funny when you talk to the new age communists, after they have given the spiel on colonialism and imperialism they move onto how our great 'socialist' world is going to work. Obviously all these other attempts at communism weren't real communism.

"Different countries will contribute in different ways. There will be no nationalism or self interest because there won't be nations we will all be members of this new utopia."

Then you ask what if a country doesn't want to play? A really big country who you need on board if this whole plan is going to work? Say America say's that sounds great guys but we'll stick as how we are. What then?

"Well we will show them that this is the only way that it is madness not to join in."

Ok great, but stupid people do stupid things so what if they still don't want to join?

"Oh well....err...I....I..."

You'll invade them? Colonise them? Show them the way forward, what's best for them?

kibsolar1999 wrote:
Sun 31 Jan 2021 1:31 pm


do not tell me that it would take "less time" to make 27 bilateral deals instead one deal with the EU.
No the EU is renowned for its speed on ratifying trade deals.
kibsolar1999 wrote:
Sun 31 Jan 2021 1:31 pm

basically it was not the "blond german nazi girl" who messed it up, it was "everybody", incl the govs in the single countries.
Yes governments are very capable of ballsing things up so always a good idea to create more layers of government and increase the likelihood of balls ups.
kibsolar1999 wrote:
Sun 31 Jan 2021 1:31 pm

it is bad enough that 16% of the world population basically bought 100% of all available and may soon to be approved "good" vaccines.
biontech, moderna, curevac, johnson, novavax, even most of astra. all go to the 16%.
Who will immunise their own people and then send the excess to the third world after arranging how much of a bribe is needed to some tin pot dictator to oil the wheels of distribution.
kibsolar1999 wrote:
Sun 31 Jan 2021 1:31 pm

and, of course, force them to pay their foreign debts.
No we should write the debts off and shovel them some more money and be astonished when they spunk that too. After all who doesn't learn fiscal responsibility when you always pay off their debts?
kibsolar1999 wrote:
Sun 31 Jan 2021 1:31 pm

we do have MAGA, MEGA and also MEUGA caps in the offer. we also have MRGA, MCGA and MIGA caps.
or shall i say, KAG, KEG, KEUG... (eg, keep amerika great) caps?
who wants which?
Your right I think everyone who doesn't agree with what you say should be censored and jailed for hate crimes. What constitutes a hate crime will be decided by you of course.
I agree you have to be so so careful or else you'll get fascism.
Don't really get irony do you?
kibsolar1999 wrote:
Sun 31 Jan 2021 1:31 pm

no, the united nations of europe would not be "the ultimate end game".
the "ultimate end game" goes much further.
If the majority of people vote for something that is transparent then even if I don't agree then I will have to accept it. My problem is I'm a bit of a stickler for votes, majorities and transparency.

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Re: The Brexit effect

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waz-24-7 wrote:
Sun 31 Jan 2021 12:21 pm

Mirror any EU decision?? Why on earth would the UK want to do that?
They don't, but be honest, anytime we do anything that isn't following the EU policy you will be waiting for it to fail won't you?
waz-24-7 wrote:
Sun 31 Jan 2021 12:21 pm

It is all down to how the UK economy performs outside the customs union.
Who knows we may ,as some take the view , be exceedingly successful.
Well over the last 40 years on average countries outside the EU have done as well economically if not better than average countries who are in it so.......
waz-24-7 wrote:
Sun 31 Jan 2021 12:21 pm
I think within 5 yrs we will have a clearer picture on a course. Within 10 yrs a revised customs Union may be on the cards. What entry requirements? I can only guess.
OK so you want us to wait at least 5 years to get a better picture with a view to re-joning after 10 years? Excellent so no need to be droning on about it for the next 5 years then putting a microscope on every faliure and ignoring any success. You'll wait 5 years for an overall picture?
As for entry requirements, you have already said joining the Euro would be no red line to you so I assume changing our language to Dutch or the compulsory wearing of lederhosen would prove no barrier either? In fact I'd be interested what would be a red line on entry requirements?

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Post by waz-24-7 »

ETS said:

OK so you want us to wait at least 5 years to get a better picture with a view to re-joning after 10 years? Excellent so no need to be droning on about it for the next 5 years then putting a microscope on every faliure and ignoring any success. You'll wait 5 years for an overall picture?
As for entry requirements, you have already said joining the Euro would be no red line to you so I assume changing our language to Dutch or the compulsory wearing of lederhosen would prove no barrier either? In fact I'd be interested what would be a red line on entry requirements?
[/quote]

Given the very recent developments post Brexit. The lay of the land , particularly economically, is very important to me for one. It is others who have chosen vaccine roll out as a key "we won the day" topic. I am focused on the bigger picture and many more successes and failures will emerge. I can only comment on the facts as I see them and how these will influence the UK economy primarily.

As to rejoining criteria. I don't think fashion attire or language of communication are very plausible. Currency possibly and a unified currency, possibly a crypto currency such as bitcoin will by then, possibly, be the global currency of choice. Certainly technological advances to enhance and speed up global trade will prevail over any desire to exchange token s of value such as the Euro or £ or any other.
What will not change any time soon is the physical movement and delivery of goods. to markets and customers. This has been easy in the pre Brexit customs Union. Very recently it has been shown to be (not surprisingly) more difficult. You know what that means by now I'm guessing.

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Come on Waz, you must have an idea of a time span?

I mean one year, I can see anyone might think well that's a bit of a short experiment.

Ten years you might think is long enough to get a balanced view.

It's just someone might get the impression that currently you realise that the EU has made an almighty cock up so you are keeping your powder dry and desperate to change the subject but if there are say 2 things that don't go perfectly you'll be full on we must rejoin now, the sooner the better.
I mean I'm sure that's not the case but roughly how long is this balanced judgement going to take? I won't hold you too it if you say 5 years and you think maybe 6 might give a clearer picture? :)

And those red lines?
So being forced to join the Euro isn't a red line?
I doubt an EU army would prove a problem? How about compulsory conscription for that army?
More power devolved from our parliament or judiciary?
Our economy outperforming its record while in the EU?
Where are those red lines? Or aren't there any?

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Re: The Brexit effect

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Post by MVP »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Sun 31 Jan 2021 12:09 pm
I have to say I am beginning to regret voting for Ursula von der Leyen
Even the last German dictator who controlled Europe was voted for by his native population.

No doubt Europe will need the UK to bail them out of another German caused catastrophe.

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Re: The Brexit effect

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Post by waz-24-7 »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Sun 31 Jan 2021 3:57 pm
Come on Waz, you must have an idea of a time span?

I mean one year, I can see anyone might think well that's a bit of a short experiment.

Ten years you might think is long enough to get a balanced view.

It's just someone might get the impression that currently you realise that the EU has made an almighty cock up so you are keeping your powder dry and desperate to change the subject but if there are say 2 things that don't go perfectly you'll be full on we must rejoin now, the sooner the better.
I mean I'm sure that's not the case but roughly how long is this balanced judgement going to take? I won't hold you too it if you say 5 years and you think maybe 6 might give a clearer picture? :)

And those red lines?
So being forced to join the Euro isn't a red line?
I doubt an EU army would prove a problem? How about compulsory conscription for that army?
More power devolved from our parliament or judiciary?
Our economy outperforming its record while in the EU?
Where are those red lines? Or aren't there any?
If I was to say as soon as possible then the brexit will understandably scream foul and democracy has been overridden. Given the Scottish referendum dilemma is again emerging. I would therefore say a similar time scale if a re join referendum was needed.
As I have said . I don't particularly like referendums because they divide and separate.
If the UK pushes on and thrives outside of the Union then great. Ill eat humble pie and relish the prosperity.

Red lines: Doesn't really matter right now does it I'm forced to wait and see how it pans out The current challenges after only a couple of weeks take enough time and energy.

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Re: The Brexit effect

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MVP wrote:
Sun 31 Jan 2021 4:12 pm

Even the last German dictator who controlled Europe was voted for by his native population.
He pumped a lot of money into the economy to alleviate unemployment with public works and I suppose you are going to ignore his green policies and the fact that he banned fox hunting and just concentrate on his negatives. Typical ultra crypto neo right! 😉

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Re: The Brexit effect

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waz-24-7 wrote:
Sun 31 Jan 2021 5:48 pm

If I was to say as soon as possible then the brexit will understandably scream foul and democracy has been overridden.
So in other words if you were to give an honest answer you know it wouldn't be well received?
waz-24-7 wrote:
Sun 31 Jan 2021 5:48 pm

As I have said . I don't particularly like referendums because they divide and separate.
You don't like referendums because they reveal that your opinions are not as popular as you'd like and give the people a chance to reveal their opinions.
I don't like governing by referendum but the people's will on certain issues that fundamentally will change the country needs to be heard.

I know you'd much prefer 'we are committed to rejoin the EU' put in small print and buried on page 275 of a 500 page manifesto. People vote for that party and so they can call that a 'clear' mandate to rejoin the EU. We fell for that before.
waz-24-7 wrote:
Sun 31 Jan 2021 5:48 pm

Red lines: Doesn't really matter right now does it I'm forced to wait and see how it pans out The current challenges after only a couple of weeks take enough time and energy.
There aren't any are there Waz?

Just be honest;
You want us to rejoin the EU ASAP
There are no conditions that would make you deviate from that wish
And you don't want this to risk being put to a referendum because you are frightened that you will lose it.

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Re: The Brexit effect

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Post by Brazen »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Sun 31 Jan 2021 7:04 pm
MVP wrote:
Sun 31 Jan 2021 4:12 pm

Even the last German dictator who controlled Europe was voted for by his native population.
He pumped a lot of money into the economy to alleviate unemployment with public works and I suppose you are going to ignore his green policies and the fact that he banned fox hunting and just concentrate on his negatives. Typical ultra crypto neo right! 😉
The main driver of him getting elected was the Wall Street crash. Germany had borrowed so much money from US banks, which was one of his main manifesto points about foreigners owning Germany, that when they called in the loans the country went bankrupt. At the time the Nazi party had only about 5% of the vote. The consequences are history.

Recommend Hitlers Circle Of Evil on Netflix

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Re: The Brexit effect

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Brazen wrote:
Mon 01 Feb 2021 11:38 am

Recommend Hitlers Circle Of Evil on Netflix
Yes saw that, very good.

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Re: The Brexit effect

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Post by Walesforever »

Waz and kib solar

After reading all your posts it’s no wonder the UK voted leave.

You both sound bitter and twisted.

The EU are in a complete mess many states are broken and virtually bankrupt. Once upon a time it looked a good idea but sadly upon inviting more and more extremely poor countries to join they have drained the system and diluted it to such an extent it’s too big and almost uncontrollable.
The one time they all needed to work together ( vaccines) the left hand didn’t know what the right hand was doing.

The best thing that happened to the UK over the past 50 years is leaving the utter shambles of the EU.

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Re: The Brexit effect

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Post by kerry 6138 »

Kibsolar. it is bad enough that 16% of the world population basically bought 100% of all available and may soon to be approved "good" vaccines.
biontech, moderna, curevac, johnson, novavax, even most of astra. all go to the 16%.the other 84% slowly but surely are getting very very angry about it,


https://www.msn.com
Participating countries have donated different amounts.
The UK government, for example, has provided $734m (£548m) - one of the largest financial pledges.
By contrast, Russia and the US are among the few countries that have not contributed, though the latter has said it will sign up under President Joe Biden.

https://ec.europa.eu/international-part ... -middle_el
EU increases its contribution to COVAX to €500 million to secure COVID-19 vaccines for low and middle-income countries

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kerry 6138 wrote:
Tue 02 Feb 2021 10:09 am

https://www.msn.com
Participating countries have donated different amounts.
The UK government, for example, has provided $734m (£548m) - one of the largest financial pledges.
By contrast, Russia and the US are among the few countries that have not contributed, though the latter has said it will sign up under President Joe Biden.

https://ec.europa.eu/international-part ... -middle_el
EU increases its contribution to COVAX to €500 million to secure COVID-19 vaccines for low and middle-income countries
Awww don't spoil it for him with facts, Just put up a caricature of someone in a black cape and Dick Dastardly moustache standing on a pile of vaccines saying 'it's mine.......ALL MINE' with a cackle.

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Post by kerry 6138 »

https://www.msn.com

One jab of the Oxford University and AstraZeneca vaccine offers 76% protection against Covid-19 for up to three months, a study has shown.
The finding is a boost for Britain’s controversial decision to extend the gap between the first and second doses of the vaccine to 12 weeks.
The authors also reported a 67% reduction in transmission after the first dose of the vaccine based on swabs obtained from volunteers in the UK arms of the trial.
100% effective at stopping hospitalization after day 22

Anybody know someone with contacts in the EU? Ursula VdL and Macrons recent statements against this particular vaccine are going to cost lives.

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Re: The Brexit effect

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Post by Walesforever »

Waz and kib solar

Your slowly running out of things to bash the UK with.

Unfortunately for you Brexit hasn’t proved the "ooops" show you hoped it would be.

The UK are already making a success of getting out of the "ooops" show that the EU has become

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Re: The Brexit effect

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Post by waz-24-7 »

Walesforever wrote:
Tue 02 Feb 2021 10:52 pm
Waz and kib solar

Your slowly running out of things to bash the UK with.

Unfortunately for you Brexit hasn’t proved the "ooops" show you hoped it would be.

The UK are already making a success of getting out of the "ooops" show that the EU has become
Bashing the UK...Hardly and on what basis?
Please don't confuse with the abundant EU bashing I see every other post. Classic post divorce bickering I think.
I certainly have never wished that Brexit would fail the UK. I still think it will. Recent developments support that view.
The clear issues and difficulties are plain to see.
The UK is in recession so loss is inevitable.

My guess is once again vaccine roll out is your ace card. Good news indeed but not a Brexit issue. Peace and prosperity must be the prime aspiration of EU and UK,.

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Re: The Brexit effect

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waz-24-7 wrote:
Wed 03 Feb 2021 1:41 pm

The UK is in recession so loss is inevitable.
Laying the ground work for the next few difficult years being down to Brexit I see.
Pretty much the whole world is in recession down to covid or in particular the lockdown. It's effects dwarf Brexit but such a margin as to make Brexit irrelevant.

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Re: The Brexit effect

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Post by waz-24-7 »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Wed 03 Feb 2021 1:51 pm
waz-24-7 wrote:
Wed 03 Feb 2021 1:41 pm

The UK is in recession so loss is inevitable.
Laying the ground work for the next few difficult years being down to Brexit I see.
Pretty much the whole world is in recession down to covid or in particular the lockdown. It's effects dwarf Brexit but such a margin as to make Brexit irrelevant.
Yes,
The Pandemic is a massive knock for the global economy. I think everyone is agreed it couldn't have come at a worse time for the UK.
The added Brexit effects and the hit on several industrial sectors is becoming apparent.
The fishing industry certainly has been shocked by the negative outcome. Landing and shipping into EU has left boats at the Quay. I hear UK shell fish have been banned from the EU on a quality issue . By the same token Tasmanian lobster have been banned from China. Too much cadmium content!!
These type of commercial knocks illustrate to me the importance of trading and customs Unions. The little fish will always struggle in the wide open sea.

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Re: The Brexit effect

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

waz-24-7 wrote:
Wed 03 Feb 2021 2:21 pm

The Pandemic is a massive knock for the global economy. I think everyone is agreed it couldn't have come at a worse time for the UK.
The added Brexit effects and the hit on several industrial sectors is becoming apparent.
Yes it's very important to connect two completely different things to keep the narrative going.
waz-24-7 wrote:
Wed 03 Feb 2021 2:21 pm

The fishing industry certainly has been shocked by the negative outcome. Landing and shipping into EU has left boats at the Quay. I hear UK shell fish have been banned from the EU on a quality issue .
Yes its been a difficult MONTH. The EU using quality as protectionism is nothing new and expected. I'm sure the fisherman who voted overwhelmingly for Brexit are not surprised by the EU tactics. Even if their choice was wrong that's democracy or would you prefer a few decide what is best for people?
waz-24-7 wrote:
Wed 03 Feb 2021 2:21 pm

These type of commercial knocks illustrate to me the importance of trading and customs Unions. The little fish will always struggle in the wide open sea.
Yes let's hope we can avoid the disaster that happened to Singapore when they were expelled from the Malaysian federation. A blow that they barely recovered from!

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Re: The Brexit effect

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Post by kibsolar1999 »

for one thing this covid was good for me... i am immune against totally stupid and disgusting attacks. and doubtful links, film and book recommendations. ((/))

kerry,
pls read on what i wrote... the other 84% slowly but surely are getting very very angry about it, eg, while during summer 2020 the financing of the covac initiative was extremely slow, they (the 16%) bought the market empty and now the other 84 can expect vaccination in earliest 2022, the rest in 2023 /24.

so, now covax got some money, but unfortunately they are ... last in the row. well so what...
on top
- executive order from december 2020 in the US: amerika first, no vaccines to leave the US.
- export ban/control for medicines for covid 19 AND export ban for the Astra vaccine production in the UK.
- since a couple of days: EU export control for vaccines.

and.. (to all)
1. what i do find interesting is that one jab Astra seem to give a higher protection as 2 jabs. if i got it right...
2. we (US,UK,EU the lot) do it the other way round.. when WE are bancrupt or "in need", we just "create some (virtuell) money", we never pay debts "back". so much about "fiscal responsibility".
3. i wonder what kind of products will enter the UK in the future and WHY they might be cheaper as pre brexit. the UK does not plan to introduce quality controls? (i mean, that was an issue: during the negotiations not only the dutch complained about "lower labor, environment and other standarts"... ). products for the UK are often "the same" as for the EU, so, same quality and why exactly they will be at the end significant cheaper then? and what you want to import what is not available today? or what the UK wants to export what was not ordered before brexit and why it will be cheaper now? because the GBP goes down? ok, understandable, but what about imports then?
anyway, 3 has been discussed here and brexit is done.
but 4. invoking article 16 for one night just showed what is possible when the UK wants to continue cherry picking, eg, when export bans are announced and on the other hand the UK claims that they are "first in the row"... as waz said.. not really peaceful behaviour...
the story goes on and when it comes to "financial services".. the talk will be even harder...

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Re: The Brexit effect

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

kibsolar1999 wrote:
Wed 03 Feb 2021 2:57 pm
i am immune against totally stupid and disgusting attacks.
Just gathered expertise at launching them
kibsolar1999 wrote:
Wed 03 Feb 2021 2:57 pm

we (US,UK,EU the lot) do it the other way round.. when WE are bancrupt or "in need", we just "create some (virtuell) money", we never pay debts "back". so much about "fiscal responsibility".
Congratulations you've just described socialist economic policy. The UK was paying a billion a week in interest payments pre the covid bale out.
kibsolar1999 wrote:
Wed 03 Feb 2021 2:57 pm


i wonder what kind of products will enter the UK in the future and WHY they might be cheaper as pre brexit. the UK does not plan to introduce quality controls?
They'll be cheaper because we will buy a cheaper option rather than protect the producers of another member country. If you only shop at the corner shop you generally find you pay more than if you shop around. These are not difficult concepts to grasp.

Yes we will have quality controls but we wont be using them as another form of tariff to protect the producer of another member country.

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Re: The Brexit effect

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Post by kibsolar1999 »

Congratulations you've just described socialist economic policy. The UK was paying a billion a week in interest payments pre the covid bale out.

oh, i thought they have been financed with/from new debts

They'll be cheaper because we will buy a cheaper option rather than protect the producers of another member country. If you only shop at the corner shop you generally find you pay more than if you shop around.

well then. shop around.
iam sure "B" oranges from brasil will be a bit cheaper and of course, the UK can enable the tax free import of chinese water pumps/ float controls... which have made many people here very happy.
or where exactly you wanted to shop around to buy the better/good stuff?
my godness, you are the 5th richest nation in the world, eg, housing and also, eg, 1 hr of labor does cost a f***** fortune and you want to make some pennies.. you are waisting your time and you call it freedom and sovereignty. well then.
and surely somebody needs to pay for your new to be introduced quality controls.

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

Can’t understand you Kibsolar, you’re rambling now

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Re: The Brexit effect

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Post by TAC »

The hair line cracks are starting to open
FINLAND has joined Britain and broken with much of Europe to announce it will wait 12 weeks between AstraZeneca vaccine doses, rather than three.

THE Eurozone slumped into a double-dip recession today as coronavirus measures continue to wreak havoc across the single currency bloc - prompting a warning that the EU's shambolic vaccine scheme is holding its economy back.
I'm leaving now to go find myself....if I arrive before I get back, please ask me to wait!

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Re: The Brexit effect

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Post by kerry 6138 »

Kibsolar - 1. what i do find interesting is that one jab Astra seem to give a higher protection as 2 jabs. if i got it right...

http://www.pharmatimes.com
AstraZeneca said that results showed vaccine efficacy of 76% after a first dose, with protection maintained to the second dose. With an inter-dose interval of 12 weeks or more, vaccine efficacy increased to 82%, which is particularly good news given the UK's vaccination strategy.
Also crucial, the analysis showed the potential for the vaccine to reduce asymptomatic transmission of the virus, based on weekly swabs obtained from volunteers in the UK trial, with PCR positive readings cut by 67% after a single dose,

https://theconversation.com/delaying-th ... ons-152771

How protective is the first vaccine dose?
This depends on the vaccine. For the Pfizer vaccine, the two-dose schedule is 95% effective, but studies have shown that from 12 days after the first shot (so allowing time for it to generate protection) to the timing of the second shot, a single dose is about 85-90% effective.

Would you choose your Mother to be 82% protected at the expense of your Father receiving none or would you prefer they both got 76% protection and were 67% less infectious?

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Re: The Brexit effect

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Post by Walesforever »

BBC headlines .... UK economy ready to surge ahead and recover thanks to huge progress with the vaccine programme.

Sorry Waz

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Re: The Brexit effect

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Post by waz-24-7 »

TAC wrote:
Thu 04 Feb 2021 12:13 am
The hair line cracks are starting to open
FINLAND has joined Britain and broken with much of Europe to announce it will wait 12 weeks between AstraZeneca vaccine doses, rather than three.

THE Eurozone slumped into a double-dip recession today as coronavirus measures continue to wreak havoc across the single currency bloc - prompting a warning that the EU's shambolic vaccine scheme is holding its economy back.

Is this a cause for celebration?
I think not.
Quite shameful

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waz-24-7
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Re: The Brexit effect

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Post by waz-24-7 »

Walesforever wrote:
Thu 04 Feb 2021 5:43 pm
BBC headlines .... UK economy ready to surge ahead and recover thanks to huge progress with the vaccine programme.

Sorry Waz
Applogy...for what?
I agree the Economy (global) will surge after the pandemic. The UK will certainly take advantage of being vaccination ahead. I am delighted to hear of the daily surge forward upon UK vaccination. Not because its outdoing the rest of the world but because lives ( all lives) are being saved Other Countries are on catch up and assistance is being offered and provided by the G20 union of nations.

However, The UK economic woes remain in a sorry state. The Irish problem upon borders, absence of planning and a failure upon the deal that was agreed are causing some very worrying signals including a possible break down of the GF peace agreement.

I have highlighted the industrial sectors being badly effected as a result of loss of trade ,and they are still in turmoil... vaccine or not.

Please do accept that the vaccine and its roll out success in the UK is not the ticket to future prosperity. The longer term and bigger picture is what is important.

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Re: The Brexit effect

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Post by kibsolar1999 »

kerry,
yes difficult decision.
i just wonder why Astra said that two dose within 4 weeks gives 62% protection, then they said with 1/2 dose as first shot and full 2nd after 3 or 4 weeks the protection is much higher (was it approx 90%?) and now just a single dose (is it half dose?) has 76% and with a second dose given after 12 weeks (= 3 month) it is 82%. (which is funny, where from they know?, as vaccination in the UK did start when?? )
all not very trust building.
if i do ignore all recommendations from the manufacturer or if i do "adjust" my vaccination plans on low evidence, then i may get some probs with the virus and also with legal responsibilities, but these are scrapped completely from UK gov anyway.
whatever goes wrong or does not work, Astra is out.

every country tries as best as they can and want to avoid harm to their people.
the EU had to protect and represent their smaller members as well and even if they would be a bit quicker... for all vaccines are not available anyway
(the real mistake was not start to boost manufacturing capacity worldwide in late spring 2020), and the UK may simply have no other choice to be "a bit creative" with their rollout.

but this all leads also to the situation that, eg, in germany now more people got their second shot (with bioNtech / moderna) as in the UK.

i may take it as pragmatic as you...
as a 76% protection still can spread the virus enormously (for herd immunity you need 100% of the population to be vaccinated with one shot), "lockdowns the lot" are the only chance to fight it...
it might be better to do all as suggested up front.

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Re: The Brexit effect

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

waz-24-7 wrote:
Thu 04 Feb 2021 8:35 pm

Is this a cause for celebration?
I think not.
Quite shameful
I think the virtue signalling would be better from someone who doesn’t glory in every piece of bad news in the U.K. tbh

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