If the UK leaves the EU.

[erol]

Was - Life maybe unfair but if your not willing to change anything you are consigning a generation or more of UK citizens to poverty

Since when has thinking that the UK will be better off within the EU than outside it equalled 'not being willing to change anything' ? I am sorry kerry6138 and with all due respect, the above statement to me comes across as nothing but rhetoric lacking any actual substance.

[waddo]

Question for all the OUT experts out there. If the vote is sadly to find out if the grass is actually greener on the other side, what will happen to all the UK forces overseas in EU countries - like the 4500 troops in Germany or the troops in Cyprus and Gibraltar? Will they all have to get visa's or will they just pull out? And, if the UK leaves the EU will Gibraltar leave as well and go back to the Golden Days of border crossings into Spain? Just a small thing that only effects the military so will not figure in the big picture but interesting none the less - much more interesting than where will the RAF get its spare parts and servicing for "Eurofighter". Then again who cares?

[kerry 6138]

Erol - sorry you dont like my retort to was -24-7 statement "Yes the UK is far from perfect and there will always be issues and people that either fail or are failed. This is life, Life is often very unfair."

Its easy to talk economics, European gateways etc. but there are real people at the end of these regulations do you think if the UK stays in the EU now we will have strengthend our postition at any future negotiations.
IMO The free movement regulations have made things worse for my sons generation to secure stable well paid employment and has a corner stone of the EU is not something we can opt out of or negotiate away

[kerry 6138]

Waddo - certainly no expert but arn't troops in Germany part of NATO, troops in Cyprus UN or on sovereign bases and has for Gibraltar when our European partner Spain wants to remind us of its claim to it In or Out you'll have a long wait at the border.
Eurofighter spares same place has now at a guess.

[waz-24-7]

Kerry,
Your aspiration to look out for family is noble and proper. I have made several case statements on why staying in the Union will benefit the UK and its Citizens such as the persons you refer to assuming they are UK citizens and possibly resident in UK. I have seen no real case studies that illustrate how the UK will prosper, grow, be competitive in the modern world if we are OUT. Plenty of cases to try and disprove the IN statements. Someone please tell me how being OUT will be better for the very people Kerry refers to. I too can be influenced so do please come forth.

[waz-24-7]

Waddo,
Gibraltar, Cyprus bases, are British sovereign territory and the EU has no bearing on that status. The UK is a NATO member and defence protocol as a NATO member will not be effected.
Union members do share intelligence gathering and anti terrorism agendas are, I am certain, discussed in dept. A strategy across the Union is critical to protect the whole of the civilised world from the clear and real threat that is there. A stand alone UK alone policy cannot be as advantageous as a group multi faceted strategy.

[erol]

Erol - sorry you dont like my retort to was -24-7...

I just took exception to the idea that if you were to vote to stay in that was an expression of not wanting any change at all. It is not. It is perfectly possible to want the UK to remain in the EU and to want change and reform within the EU as well. The two things are not mutually exclusive. It is because I want change that I want the UK to remain in the EU, not because I do not want change.

If you believe that the UK and those within it like your own family will be better off outside the EU, I have no problem with that. I think you are wrong but respect you are entitled to your opinion. I just do not like being 'told' that my opinion is one that 'does not want to change anything' when that is just not true and that it seeks to 'consign a generation or more of UK citizens to poverty'.

[turtle]

https://www.facebook.com/voteleave/vide ... 550966573/

[waddo]

And for those who don't use nor want Facebook: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/vid ... n-eu-video

[waz-24-7]

Clear to see that almost without exception politicians, left, right , centre and even Scottish Nationals are for the IN vote.
I have never seen such a level of cross party agreement between usually battling parties.
I must wonder why the distinct majority of TRNC ex pats ( at least the ones that care a hoot) seem to be OUT voters.
Could this be that many have fled the UK as a lost cause and any change to the current is deemed good change.
Perhaps if the same people were still residing in the UK and familiar with the day to day politics and economics of our country. They may look on things with a different light.

[Geoff1131]

waz, if most of the politicians are favouring the 'Stay in ' vote. That is another reason to vote OUT!!!!!

[turtle]

So according to Mr Cameron if we vote out there will be all out war in Europe again......if he will sink this low this early i fear a very dirty campagn in the weeks ahead..... Shameful.

[jofra]

It would be interesting to compare the views of expats who moved to EU countries with those who moved to non-EU countries - I suspect that (like most of us) opinions are formed purely on the basis if "how it affects me personally" rather than what may be best for the population in general who remain in the UK. A friend who lives mostly in Spain (returns for a week or so every couple of months) is emphatically "IN".....

[turtle]

It is strange trying to understand peoples views on this for example Nigel Lawson is campaigning wholeheartedly for an out result..........and he now lives in France ?... What's that all about.

[waddo]

Perhaps the majority of OUT voters in the TRNC are in the age bracket that thinks they remember the "Golden Years", you know those years that are now so far behind you that they always seemed good. The age brackets poll in the UK put the retired (ages 60+ firmly in the OUT vote) and at a guess I would think the majority of voters in the TRNC will be in that bracket.
The ones that apparently "Don't give a hoot" are in the bracket that came here to work and start a new life so they may well be too busy to bother about a poll on here that means nothing to their decision on which way to vote anyway.
I do not think that most OUT voters "fled the UK as a lost cause", the UK is what it is - the country where we were all born and raised, fought for, fought against, paid our taxes to and believed in the politicians and government to ensure that our futures and plans would be met. I don't think it is a lost cause, I just think that it could care less what happens to its people so long as its leaders (of whatever party) can continue to be "I am all right Jack"!!!
I have no intention of residing in the UK ever again - that is why I left (freedom of choice) - but I care about my family left behind, however, they have the same choice I had and can leave - Take action - if they have the will to do so.
I have no real interest in the politics and economy of the UK as I do not live there, I do have interest in the politics and economy of the TRNC because that is where I live now. Perhaps if I lived in Kazakhstan I would care about the politics and economy of that country, this would be a normal thing to do. It matters not where in the world I live, my pensions are UK Government pensions (taxed at source) so my only interest in the UK is what happens to Sterling when and if they are stupid enough to leave the EU.

[kerry 6138]

Erol you said.-  It is perfectly possible to want the UK to remain in the EU and to want change and reform within the EU as well. The two things are not mutually exclusive
I agree, but Cameron recently tried to negotiate reform from what should have been a strong position having a possible
Brexit in his pocket and came back with the usual opt out, mean while European expansionism carry's on, IMO Cameron made a huge mistake in offering the Brexit vote to sway voters at the last election he has weakened any future negotiations if we stay in.

[waz-24-7]

Geoff1131
I hardly think so.
These politicians were voted in (or at least stand for election as leaders) in the democratic process that is the basis of our civilised society.
You too presumably have the vote. To Vote OUT simply to deny political democracy is very disappointing. The matter deserves more serious consideration I think.

[waz-24-7]

Waddo
Very well put
Thank you

[waz-24-7]

Kerry
Please do not confuse UK internal politics with the politics of the Union. IN or OUT our democratically elected leader (whoever that may be), I am certain, will do their utmost for the good of the country.
Good to see that the Leader are ALL for the IN campaign.

[Geoff1131]

waz, 'These politicians' as you call them, include David Cameron who is the leader of ' These politicians' who claims that World war 111 will start if the UK votes to leave the EU? ' These politicians ' also include Jack Straw, who was the Home Secretary who refused to allow an independent inquiry into the Hillsborough disaster as he believed the police investigation into the incident was enough. Yes I am very sceptical of ' These politicians ' and hope the UK public make their decision in June without scaremongering 'politicians' trying to influence the vote.

[waz-24-7]

Jofra,
I would suspect that most Ex pats that are EU (offshore) based would be IN campaigners as they harvest the benefits of freedom of travel, work permissions, health care to a degree plus other benefits.
Remember too that these benefits are enjoyed by you should you cross into the South EU ROC. I suspect the border crossing as an alien will become rather more tedious with visas, travel documents insurances and all the stuff that the ROC may well throw at ex pat TRNC supporters.
They will make it difficult because they can !!

[waz-24-7]

Geof1131
Your are right to be sceptical about politicians, many are also including myself.
However I do completely believe that UK democracy is the best in the world and is sets a precedent in how democracy works to a degree.
It will never ever be perfect but ones voting rights should be cherished , democracy represents the freedoms that many do not have.
Certainly politicians make some very strange statements and promises that are very often broken. The world of politics I think is like a game of chess.
things can change very suddenly, strategies change to outwit the other side. No prisoners and winner takes all... until the next game.

[kerry 6138]

Was - 24 - 7 Not sure I was mixing UK and EU politics, I'm sure that any future leader will try there best at any future negotiations but after a In vote referendum they will have lost a large bargaining tool.
Has I said in previous post I do cherish my vote in a national election because it carries some weight, however has voter turnouts across Europe show there appears to be no weight in a EU election and Fifa was a democratic organisation that more closely mirrors the EU

[turtle]

Kerry
Please do not confuse UK internal politics with the politics of the Union. IN or OUT our democratically elected leader (whoever that may be), I am certain, will do their utmost for the good of the country.
Good to see that the Leader are ALL for the IN campaign.

Not sure U Kippers would agree with that last line Waz,...

[waz-24-7]

Turtle
Fair comment
However faced with the dismal results last time round. Who cares? I do hope the voting public carry on the sentiment.

[waz-24-7]

Now over 4000 views on this topic.
something's stirring some thought and possible debate.
Still a month or so to decide.
Lets hear some cases for the OUT vote. Please!!

Vote in,.... growth, prosperity, stability and focus.

[kerry 6138]

Vote in,.... growth( of the EU ), prosperity (for some) , stability( bail outs, refugee crisis,demonstrations ) focus ( ? )

[waddo]

I will give you a reason for OUT, even through I will still vote for IN: There are (currently) 28 member country's of the EU, no state has ever withdrawn from the EU. The European Union is the largest exporter in the world and as of 2008 the largest importer of goods and services. Internal trade between the member states is aided by the removal of barriers to trade such as tariffs and border controls. In the eurozone, trade is helped by not having any currency differences to deal with amongst most members.

So vote for OUT and get rid of all of this forever - start again and make UK Great again. After all, UK may well be the first based upon the feelings of the voters and the information (rhetoric) that has been foisted upon them. Its a long time since UK has been first at anything major - go for it!!!

[terry2366]

No need to worry guys Gordon Brown has come on the side of remain and said it would be in British to leave so that's all right then. When we come out the fishwife will have another referendum and Scotland will leave taking the SNP one million votes and 59 mp's with them. That will make a difference in the commons.

[kerry 6138]

Waddo if the eurozone is such a benefit trade are we not better IN fully, accept the Euro join schengen?
No ones left yet , Irish tried EU didn't like the answer.

[waddo]

kerry, can I point out that I did say I will vote IN!!! To leave in search of a pipe dream is foolish but if that is the way people want to vote then it is up to them. I do not believe the politicians for either side (IN or OUT) as like all good news sellers they will paint the best or worst picture as it suits them - neither side know what will happen anyway but I refuse to be a lemming and just blindly rush over the cliff because everyone says it will be a good idea.
The majority of people I speak to in the over 60 ages all want to jump off the cliff but can't tell me what will happen when they land, those in the under 60 ages seem happy to fight on with another 27 countries alongside them. I suppose it is the stiff upper lip and the British way of life that forces people "Over the top lads" without a thought of what will happen to them next!

[turtle]

I will give you a reason for OUT, even through I will still vote for IN: There are (currently) 28 member country's of the EU, no state has ever withdrawn from the EU. The European Union is the largest exporter in the world and as of 2008 the largest importer of goods and services. Internal trade between the member states is aided by the removal of barriers to trade such as tariffs and border controls. In the eurozone, trade is helped by not having any currency differences to deal with amongst most members.

So vote for OUT and get rid of all of this forever - start again and make UK Great again. After all, UK may well be the first based upon the feelings of the voters and the information (rhetoric) that has been foisted upon them. Its a long time since UK has been first at anything major - go for it!!!

All this for a measly £13 Billion (and rising) per year....Great value....not !

[erol]

All this for a measly £13 Billion (and rising) per year....Great value....not !

Net cost of the EU to UK is around 8.5 billion per annum. Cost of the UK government per annum (tax revenues government raises from UK citizens and businesses) is around 533 billion per annum (and that is still running a deficit). Do you think you get 'great value' for your 533 billion (and rising) cost of national government ? 60+ times more value from national government than EU ?

[turtle]

Erol
From the Telegraph..

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstop ... udget.html

[waz-24-7]

Waddo.
"So vote for OUT and get rid of all of this forever - start again and make UK Great again"
Time waits for no man and the UK economy will certainly not withstand the "start again" aspiration.
An OUT vote based on the above basis would be catastrophic. Change is not the patent of the OUT camp. We can change things whilst we sit at the European table. Away from that table ( by choice) will make the task very much more difficult.

[waz-24-7]

Kerry,
I think we are right to keep our currency. It has worked reasonably to date and still offers the UK a degree of flexibility and possibly strength in some situations.
Certainly we are currently able to negotiate such matters. To be at the Union negotiating table is an advantage without question.

[kerry 6138]

Was 24 7 you said - We can change things whilst we sit at the European table.
We wouldn't be having this referendum if we could change things sufficiently.

Waddo - I realise you said you were voting IN the reasons you gave though included currency exchange and border controls, both which the UK opts out of, I was trying to point out if you think both of these are positives we should also join them.
Has for the Lemmings comment has the leaders of the main political parties are IN wouldn't that make you the Lemming
Current age 55

[waz-24-7]

Kerry,
The referendum is a political manoeuvre by the government, promised and in their manifesto in order to gain power, They succeeded in getting in to seat of government and have stood by their promise. It is clear that their recommendation is IN. Certainly expect no change at all or even a backwards step in what the UK can do outside of its borders . EU regulation, trading terms, plus many other autocratic legislation will simply be imposed on the UK if we want to trade with the Union.

[waddo]

Kerry,
Actually no it would not make me a lemming. I helped to vote the current Government into power, I did it because I believed they would do a good job and keep to their promises, so far they have done well, so I just continue my support for the Government without trying to jump ship to another, and vastly unknown, future.
Sad to say that I am a man of my word and although I may grumble from time to time, my word, like my vote, is my bond and I refuse to run away just when the going is perceived to be getting rough or because the grass might be greener on the other side of the fence!
I guess I am not much of a gambler because I would not draw another card if I was holding 19 and the dealer was stuck on 20 - but then again I am not going to vote for OUT - or another card to try to beat 20 - because I do not know, and neither does anybody else, what the next card or life outside the EU would be like.

Age at the time of the referendum will be 69 (IN). Daughters of 47 and 45 (1 IN, 1 OUT). Grandchildren of 22, 19, 12,10 and 8 (2 IN). Great Grandchildren of 26 months and 14 months. Goes to prove that statistics are just what they are - numbers!

[erol]

Erol
From the Telegraph..

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstop ... udget.html

http://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membe ... 5-million/

The 13 billion figure is what we (uk) pay after rebate but does not include the direct EU funds that go back to the UK in the form of subsides. The net figure is around 8.5 billion. This is compared to what is 'paid' to fund UK national government which is around 533 billion per annum and that does not cover all of the UK governments expenditure for the year (deficit). To me any judgement of the 'value' the UK gets for it's 8.5 billion to EU should be judged against the value we get for the 533 billion that funds national government.

[KWAKERT4]

Half of the people moving into the UK are from outside the EU, dunno why we allow it, but we do.

[kerry 6138]

You'd be surprised how many Lithuanian ladies have male freinds in Pakistan they talk to on Facebook, who decide to meet in London and fall in Love

[waddo]

KWAKERT4 - Some interesting information and answers to your question: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 95341.html

[kerry 6138]

.p.

[waz-24-7]

Kerry
The issue of arranged or marriages of convenience is known as an issue. However in the scheme of things this is hardly a deal changer.
The UK like every other country has its problems and we can only aspire to Utopia.
It is the major and critical changes that need to be focussed upon when deciding to be IN or OUT.
Immigration into the UK can and is put to advantage. There will be some small exceptions but most immigrants from the EU into the UK, from my own experience, add revenue to our administration and perform a valuable job of work in our economy. We should not be fearful of this. The level has stabilised and even fallen away. I believe the immigration situation is close to finding its natural level.

[kerry 6138]

It is the major and critical changes that need to be focussed upon when deciding to be IN or OUT.
Immigration into the UK can and is put to advantage. There will be some small exceptions but most immigrants from the EU into the UK, from my own experience, add revenue to our administration and perform a valuable job of work in our economy. We should not be fearful of this. The level has stabilised and even fallen away. I believe the immigration situation is close to finding its natural level.

I take it you dont think The free movement regulations are a major issue, maybe it is something we can negotiate at this much talked about table.
I agree we should not be fearful of immigration there has and always will be immigrants there are many Asian doctors in the NHS who apply for visa's now, some becoming UK citizens eventually, but by far the majority of EU immigrants who are only trying to better there lives are not Engineers, Scientists, Doctors.
The numbers may have stabalised / slowed down, more because less emigration but has I keep saying the EU is ever expanding each new country brings its working classes looking for a better life.

[waz-24-7]

Kerry
Immigration and population movement as the world is experiencing is a relatively new phenomenon. Immigrants from Europe entering the UK have indeed by enlarge come to improve their lives and work for a living in the UK. They are in the main adding value to the UK economy and paying taxes.
Have you yourself and most Ex pats left your home land to make better lives too? Who should deny people these aspirations.
Numbers have stabilised as would be expected as many return to their homelands having achieved their goals or for other reasons. The global labour market is now indeed a pool of resource that is capitalised on by most countries. The UK and the world must adapt. It is people power in action.

[turtle]

Waz
Have you taken a walk down Marble Arch recently ?

Hundreds of Roma gypsies living rough and using public places a toilets and sleeping in subways......the bobbies are having a nightmare trying to deal with this and its only getting worse.

[waddo]

Must be really rough for the servicemen who have been abandoned by their country to not have a place to sleep anymore because of Roma gypsies! Just how would leaving the EU cure this problem then?

[Dalartokat]

Must be really rough for the servicemen who have been abandoned by their country to not have a place to sleep anymore because of Roma gypsies! Just how would leaving the EU cure this problem then?

It won't, anymore than staying in will.