If the UK leaves the EU.

[kerry 6138]

Kerry
Immigration and population movement as the world is experiencing is a relatively new phenomenon. Immigrants from Europe entering the UK have indeed by enlarge come to improve their lives and work for a living in the UK. They are in the main adding value to the UK economy and paying taxes.
Have you yourself and most Ex pats left your home land to make better lives too? Who should deny people these aspirations.
Numbers have stabilised as would be expected as many return to their homelands having achieved their goals or for other reasons. The global labour market is now indeed a pool of resource that is capitalised on by most countries. The UK and the world must adapt. It is people power in action.

Well thats fine for the Eastern Europeans, former Soviet states and bailout countries, but where do the Northern European (in the interest of not being isolationist) unemployed poorly paid go to better themselves perhaps they should apply for a visa for Australia, Canada, US.
Has I have said previously without looking at the figure's, the majority of Brits migrate south for climate taking their UK pensions minus tax with them.

[waz-24-7]

Kerry,
The northern European counties enjoy a good standard of living though the have their own issues. I recollect Sweden had the highest suicide rate in the world!! Of course some migrate either within EU or via VISA applications.
Eastern Europeans are certainly generally less fortunate hence the migration. These people are by enlarge contributing to our economy and indirectly
you and your family take advantage from their contribution. Tax revenues pay for the public sector and all its services , infrastructure, road building etc. Ex pats moving offshore for whatever reason is another example of the population movements that we see in modern times . I see no real distinction. The TRNC is awash with Brits who rightly contribute to the fragile TRNC economy. The modern world is modernising. Its a fact.

[turtle]

Must be really rough for the servicemen who have been abandoned by their country to not have a place to sleep anymore because of Roma gypsies! Just how would leaving the EU cure this problem then?

I have not mentioned British ex servicemen Waddo why bring them into this ?.. My point was this country has a duty to people that it lets in don't you think if it can not properly look after these migrants then they should not be here in the first place and this only happens with an open door policy which is a result of mad people sat in ivory towers in Brussels.

Waddo you are quick to jump on my posts at the first sight of them and as you have already said earlier in one of your posts you couldn't give a damn about the UK anymore only what happens to your precious pension pot.....Im alright jack is it now then.
If you couldn't care less about the UK why so passionate about the place ?. Money I expect.

[kerry 6138]

Kerry,
The northern European counties enjoy a good standard of living though the have their own issues. I recollect Sweden had the highest suicide rate in the world!! Of course some migrate either within EU or via VISA applications.
Eastern Europeans are certainly generally less fortunate hence the migration. These people are by enlarge contributing to our economy and indirectly
you and your family take advantage from their contribution. Tax revenues pay for the public sector and all its services , infrastructure, road building etc. Ex pats moving offshore for whatever reason is another example of the population movements that we see in modern times . I see no real distinction. The TRNC is awash with Brits who rightly contribute to the fragile TRNC economy. The modern world is modernising. Its a fact.

I agree the 10 Eastern Europeans who rent the house at the end of the street,working shifts in a local warehouse for 3 monhs before returning home for a well earned rest leaving 10 others to take their place are definitely contributing both in the UK and at home, you never said were you think the UK 's unemployed should go to better themselves .
Are you really saying you cant see a distinction between" less fortunate Eastern Europeans " and the Brits in The TRNC?

[kerry 6138]

Must be really rough for the servicemen who have been abandoned by their country to not have a place to sleep anymore because of Roma gypsies! Just how would leaving the EU cure this problem then?

Because the UK could choose who comes who stays not the EU.

[waddo]

Turtle, I bring them into this because you keep telling me how good the country will be after it is out of the EU, although you can not give me any proof of this. The country has always had a duty to protect its people - so I just mention the fact that it fails its own people first, be the country in or out of the EU. As an ex serviceman myself the way the country treats its people is very close to my heart, they want us when they need us but when they no longer need us then we are the forgotten people - sad but true. Yet the country is very good at pointing out how badly they are treated by whatever government is in power at the time - there is no logic in this and I have never understood it but for sure coming out of the EU will not solve the problem.

I am alright at the moment "Jack" but because I live at the whims of the public you are right in your assumption that I am concerned about my precious pension pot - I must be the only British citizen who is concerned then?

As I no longer live in the UK then you are correct, my only concern - like yourself - is what effect an OUT vote will have on me. As a British tax payer who receives absolutely no benefits at all from the tax I pay I have the right to ask why I must pay tax? I also have the right to have an interest in what will happen to the currency value my pension is paid in. If the financial experts are correct in their assumption that an OUT vote will reduce the value of Sterling to exactly the same as the value of the Euro then I and everyone else on the "Huge" government pensions paid will have to shoulder the burden of a 25% reduction in income - whilst still paying tax on it!

I have no wish to argue over the matter as this thread is about staying IN or getting OUT - provide proof of the benefits of leaving and I may discuss it further, otherwise I will simply watch the continued diatribe over why I should - blindfolded - jump off the cliff with you.

[turtle]

Waddo
You may be a bit ahead of yourself as I have never said “How good the UK will be outside the EU” please tell me when I said that.
My argument for leaving is mainly based on the fact that we apparently cannot run our own affairs and have to be governed from Brussels… I disagree.
You are right the subject of this thread is the merits of in or out and from what I have heard so far there is no proof either way that can convince people one way or the other, a lot of ifs and maybe’s a lot of scare tactics from the “in” fanatics talks of world wars and depravation is just headless chicken stuff,.. They all make statements but fail to back them up with facts.
Trade is a bit of a red herring in my opinion as trade is trade and people buy off people and if obstacles are put in the way of trade then that is just in my opinion a hideous reason to protect a certain entity and is not free at all its only controlled.
Your pension is a personal thing and I respect that, however like the rest of us when you built your pension pot you did that tax free and when you draw it you pay tax on it…it’s the same for everyone get over it.
Take a look at Daniel Hannan’s speech and tell me he is wrong ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FC9nDCmqjn8

[waz-24-7]

Kerry,
You paint a very dismal picture of Europeans that have entered the UK for work and also contribute to our economy.
As quite a large employer of Europeans including UK national of course. I can assure you that in my experience they certainly work hard and contribute significantly to the UK economy. You are clearly fearful of open labour competition at home and abroad. This is definitely a recipe for failure. The UK unemployed must compete and not expect the soft option. Welfare must be paid for by the private, money earning, sector.

[waz-24-7]

Kerry,
My point on immigration to the TRNC in relation to the same into the UK is simply referring to the freedoms you enjoy as an immigrant into a foreign land compared to the same status that an immigrant may enjoy when moving to the UK.
Your clear animosity towards UK immigrants is therefore deemed somewhat hypocritical.

[waz-24-7]

Ex pats living in the TRNC are immigrants themselves and enjoy benefits that come with that privilege. I am shocked that many posters on this site exhibit a clearly xenophobic view of those immigrants moving to the UK for whatever reasons ( work is top on the agenda) Do you really think one should have the cake and eat it. Is the UK and its indigenous population really the master race that some seem to think we are?

[waz-24-7]

Waddo
Take a look at Daniel Hannan’s speech and tell me he is wrong ? tank you.

Mr Hannan’s speech is flawed. He relays to us the Union has failed to grow and its economy is stagnant. Certainly in the immediate that is right.
However it would be foolhardy to think this will continue and that this should be a reason to get out quick. The UK went through recession in 2008 and is emerging from it. The EU will emerge from recession and prosper as a Union. The case to trade on the internet with the rest of the world outside of Europe is great but we cannot in anyway exclude ourselves from the European market. The UK cannot loose any market share in Europe. We simply cannot replace that market anytime soon and whilst we try our economy and currency will suffer effecting as you correctly state, pensions, savings and investments for working and retired people.
Mr Hannan correctly states the UK's current strong position in the world economy. To leave the largest trading union in the world will certainly threaten that position. The UK must be freely open for business and closing the door even slightly to Europe will be disastrous to our economy and ability to compete on the world stage.
The UK sits at the table in Brussels and decisions are made by our MEP s for the good of our people and our economy. We cannot hope that leaving the table will make things singularly better for us. The UK will be left behind as a non contributing observer. The UK will be powerless as the EU forges ahead with whatever it wants to do. It most certainly will carry no sympathy for the ex member who left the room in a huff

[turtle]

So he's not wrong then ?

[waz-24-7]

Turtle
Deeply flawed speech based on short sighted observations that a knee jerk reaction would inflict disaster. The UK has successfully developed trade within the Eurozone for over 40 years its not time to jump ship because a storm has hindered progress most recently.
His speech is loaded with short term critical comments that do not reflect in anyway the true and forward status.

[turtle]

You should be a politician...

[erol]

Trade is a bit of a red herring in my opinion as trade is trade and people buy off people and if obstacles are put in the way of trade then that is just in my opinion a hideous reason to protect a certain entity and is not free at all its only controlled.

Scenario

I make kettles. Inevitably I manufacture them in China, or India or some such place, does not really matter. I make good kettles. I want to sell them to people. I can get a single certification from the EU and have access to a market of 500+ million potential kettle buyers. Getting such certification is a real cost but with the EU that cost is spread across the 500 million + potential customers. I get my EU certification and start selling. I get certification from the USA and get access to 500 million of potential kettle buyers there as well. The UK, outside the EU, is still a valid market and I want to sell my kettles there as well. So I get certification for my Kettles in the UK, an extra cost and one that I now have to spread out across 60 million potential kettle buyers and not 500 million. Thus I charge more for my Kettles in the UK than I do in EU member states. I have to charge more because the cost of selling them there per potential kettle buyer is higher. And it is not just 'certification' costs. Even assuming the UK applies the same import duties on my kettles as the EU does, which is almost certainly the case because the UK is a member of the WTO tariff agreements (complete with THAT loss of sovereignty), in or out of the EU, when I ship my kettles in to the EU I can ship them to a warehouse in say Slovakia and they will go through customs once and from there I can distribute them to any place in the EU without any customs costs and delays. If I want to ship them to the UK that is outside the EU, either directly or from my distribution warehouse in slovakia, that is another set of customs costs and delays and I have to pass that charge on to the UK customers.

Outside the EU Kettles will cost more in the UK than they would whilst we are inside it and more than the same items cost in the EU. Toys, Clothes, TV's, mobile phones - just about everything not manufactured in the UK (and we know how little is manufactured in the UK in the modern world we live in) will cost more. I would claim everything not manufactured in the UK did cost more in the UK than it did in the EU before the UK joined the EEC. This will affect ordinary, hard working people across the UK.

[erol]

Take a look at Daniel Hannan’s speech and tell me he is wrong ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FC9nDCmqjn8

Just a few thoughts / opinions on 'is he wrong'

He talks about shackling the UK economy to the EU as if the choice is trade with the EU or trade with the rest of the world. Nonsense. We can and do do both. He later says we can and do do both but at the start he implies we choose to trade with the economically 'moribund' EU as if this is instead of trading with the rest of the world. First he argues staying in the EU is shackling the UK to trade with the EU and then later on argues leaving the EU would not mean stopping trading with the EU. Seems to me he argues both ways to suit.

He talks of how India, China and Ethiopia economies have grown more than that of the EU. He does not mention that the USA, Japan and other major non EU economies have grown at similar level to the EU since 2006. He compares apples (growth of massively undeveloped economies) with oranges (the developed economy of the EU).

He talks of unelected people passing legislation in the EU. This is hogwash as far as I am concerned. The EU Commission are unelected but they do not PASS legislation. The EU Council passes legislation and this is made up of the elected heads of state of member countries. Even then such legislation can also be rejected by the elected EU Parliament. Whilst the following comparison is not exact, it is considerably more accurate than his claims that EU legislation is passed by unelected EU officials ( Commission). In the UK unelected civil servants draft legislation and elected MP's pass it (and unelected Lords can reject it). In the EU unelected civil servants (the Commission) draft legislation and elected heads of state pass it and the elected EU parliament can reject it.

He goes on about 'no one else gives up their sovereignty to other states (nations)'. Well Texas (and all the other states in the USA) gave up their sole sovereignty to be part of a greater union. Wales and Scotland Gave up their sovereignty to be part of a Greater union. There is no logical reason I can why his 'arguments' about 'sovereignty' would not also be why Texas should leave the Union of united states of America, or Scotland the UK. There are reasons why Texas does not leave the USA and why Scotland voted not to leave the UK and those reasons as at least as valid as his argument that 'NZ does not seek union with Australia' - but he ignores this and goes for the 'sound bite' as far as I am concerned.

Personally pretty underwhelmed by this gentleman, who ever he is. If the 'in' campaign is characterised by 'fear mongering' (and there has been plenty of that from the 'out' campaign as well) then it seems to me the 'out' campaign can be characterised by the 'we can eat our cake and still have our cake even after having eaten it' - or to put it another way 'we can keep all the benefits of being in the EU and have none of the costs or limitations of being in the EU, whilst being outside the EU'.

[turtle]

So what you are saying Erol is the big companies in the EU have products manufactured in China bring it to the EU wrap it up in red tape and CE mark it then price it accordingly and if you are an EU member you can buy it at an agreed price but if you are not in the EU you will pay more.......sounds a bit like price fixing to me........which according to the EU is illegal ?

[erol]

So what you are saying Erol is the big companies in the EU have products manufactured in China bring it to the EU wrap it up in red tape and CE mark it then price it accordingly and if you are an EU member you can buy it at an agreed price but if you are not in the EU you will pay more.......sounds a bit like price fixing to me........which according to the EU is illegal ?

No I am saying there is a cost to a maker of kettles (things) in order to be able to sell them in a given market. If that cost is the same regardless of the size of the market, then the cost per head of 'potential customer' is higher the smaller the market is. That is just logic and maths. You said no one had given any real evidence of the down sides of UK leaving the EU. This is in my opinion a simple logical and factual (to the best of my knowledge) example of why things would cost more in the UK if it were outside the EU than inside because the cost TO sell in the UK, if it were outside the EU, would be higher. So the assumption this is all based on is that the cost of certifying a kettle as safe is and would be in the same ball park iif done by the EU or done by the UK itself - an assumption I do not think is flawed ?

If my logic is wrong then please do point out where and why. I do however suspect, with respect, that your misunderstanding of what I am saying is more to do with you wanting to believe a certain thing, rather than cold assessment of the actual argument I have presented itself.

Of course you could argue that the UK outside the EU would be free to not require any certification of Kettles and thus kettles could be sold cheaper in the UK than the EU that does require such but personally that would to me also just be an argument as to why the UK should remain in the EU. If it can not be trusted to protect citizens from the dangers of shoddily designed or made kettles then such responsibilities should be given to the EU.

[turtle]

Oh and by the way Texas or any other state for that matter can't leave the state because it's illegal they have no choice.....we do .

[turtle]

Again are you just suggesting that the EU is just a buying club ? So it can sell to its customers (countries) at an agreed price thus tying customers (countries) into one source of supply.

My opinion of this is ultimately higher prices as you are tied to one supplier and not really a free market... A bit like saying you can buy from where you like so long as you buy bit from me ?

[erol]

Oh and by the way Texas or any other state for that matter can't leave the state because it's illegal they have no choice.....we do .

Says who ? Is it illegal for Scotland to leave the UK ?

Again are you just suggesting that the EU is just a buying club ? So it can sell to its customers (countries) at an agreed price thus tying customers (countries) into one source of supply.

No I am saying that the price someone charges for a product in a given place is related to the cost to them of selling that product in that place. If the cost to them of selling that product in a UK outside of the EU is higher than the cost to them selling it in the UK inside the EU then they will charge a higher price for it, because the cost of selling it in that scenario is higher. I have explained why I think the cost of selling a kettle in the UK would be higher if the UK is outside the EU than inside it. Nothing to do with 'buyers clubs', 'price fixing', 'limiting choice' - it is just plain old economics. Costs more to sell in place X, price will be higher in place X. Not complicated, not rocket science.

[kerry 6138]

Kerry,
You paint a very dismal picture of Europeans that have entered the UK for work and also contribute to our economy.
As quite a large employer of Europeans including UK national of course. I can assure you that in my experience they certainly work hard and contribute significantly to the UK economy. You are clearly fearful of open labour competition at home and abroad. This is definitely a recipe for failure. The UK unemployed must compete and not expect the soft option. Welfare must be paid for by the private, money earning, sector.

As a large employer you fall into one of the groups advantaged by free movement ,do you pay the minimum wage,how many apprentices / school leavers do you employ?

[kerry 6138]

Kerry,
My point on immigration to the TRNC in relation to the same into the UK is simply referring to the freedoms you enjoy as an immigrant into a foreign land compared to the same status that an immigrant may enjoy when moving to the UK.
Your clear animosity towards UK immigrants is therefore deemed somewhat hypocritical.

Has a migrant to TRNC I apply for annual permits ,cannot work without a permit require health insurance and need to show I can support myself so I dont see the similarities still.
My animosity is to the regulations which create a unlevel playing field for workers, not the migrant which has I said before are only trying to better themselves,
Have you opened a unit else where in Europe to take advantage of the well educated skilled pool of labour, which would help bring their economies up, and do you still employ school leavers and apprentices?

[kerry 6138]

Ex pats living in the TRNC are immigrants themselves and enjoy benefits that come with that privilege. I am shocked that many posters on this site exhibit a clearly xenophobic view of those immigrants moving to the UK for whatever reasons ( work is top on the agenda) Do you really think one should have the cake and eat it. Is the UK and its indigenous population really the master race that some seem to think we are?

Yet again xenophobia how many Africans, Americans Australians do you employ my guess is not has many are you racist? ķ

[waddo]

Yes I watched the video of Daniel Hannan the well known Euro Skeptic who has spent the years since 1999 taking his MEP wages whilst fighting against the EU - now you want me to believe this man who ask's to be sacked - so why, if he feels so strongly about it does he not just quit? After all if you felt so strongly about what you are "Forced" to do would you keep doing it for 16 years? Especially if you had other jobs and your family owned a cotton farm in Bolivia, not exactly going to put himself in the streets to sleep rough is he?

I always like to check on people who claim so much and are true believers of their own PR - do some research into this man and ask yourself just what he has done for the people who elected him to MEP, remembering that he is there to do his best for you and your country and not to do what he wants to fulfill his own personal dreams before you blindly trust what he says on a video.

There is countless information about the EU, MEP's and what is happening, this is just one site that will give you an insight into the EU: http://www.votewatch.eu/

Have a surf around then ask yourself what are the MEPs from the UK actually doing for you - then ask yourself if you should stop blaming the EU for everything and start asking why you are paying people to do nothing?

[waz-24-7]

Kerry.
At last count we employ 9 different nationalities speaking 11 different languages. We work together as a committed and dedicated team. Racist? I hardly think so.
I can absolutely assure you people are employed solely on their ability, commitment and cost. By the same token applicants in any labour market sell themselves to the best of their ability in order to succeed and progress.
No one can say that the philosophy is wrong. If we closed our doors to skilled immigrants we would soon fail in being competitive. What are people like your good self afraid of ? Compete to win or fail !!

[waz-24-7]

Waddo,
Very fair comment. Changes needs to be made to how MEPs work, deliver and perform.
Change is indeed possible. If we are OUT then expect to have changes forced upon us. The UK cannot isolate itself from EU regulation if it wants, and it certainly needs to, trade with the EU.

[waz-24-7]

Erol
The Kettle scenario....Well presented and a simple to read example of global trade. The necessity to attack all markets without exclusion is clear. The UK does this very well at present. The UK is very well equipped with the tools to continue on the prosperous road it currently enjoys. I believe the level of options, whilst IN, open to us represents a good deal with further scope to negotiate.
I believe peoples biggest fear is immigration. This cannot be overcome by leaving. The UK requires skilled and able work force which is not fully available from within. Too many stories about immigration failures. None about the successes and benefits.

[turtle]

Hahaha,..Waddo yet again you pull my post apart I simply asked if he was wrong in what he said and I think the resounding answer is NO he is not wrong.

So what has he done for me,.. err nothing as he is not my MP but what I will say is all his political life he has campaigned against more integration of the EU good on him I say
He fought against the ratification of the Lisbon Treaty a seriously flawed treaty if ever there were one but we signed it non the less without asking the British electorate I might add.
I think what your question should have been is "What do ALL MEP's do for the British public" and I think your answer will be very little as they all dance the tune to the EU and are extremely well paid for the pleasure.
If what you suggest he should pack it in then surely that will just allow this out of control EU do exactly what it wants without any objection....I'm sure the "inners" would love that.

His family business is of no concern of mine or yours for that matter.

[waddo]

I did not pull your post apart - you asked one question of me, I answered it. It is not my position to tell you if the man is right or wrong in his speech, his unblemished record of doing very little for which he is payed speaks for itself. Provided you are happy to keep funding somebody to do what they want and not what the people he represents wants them I am happy for you. Perhaps if he were to attend more often, vote more often and get more involved in the running of the EU instead of just fighting it then I may change my opinion but he has a lot of history to change before that. The public in general seem quite content to continue to pay their MEPs to do little or nothing and based on that alone I strongly suspect that the referendum vote will be for OUT. That vote will not include my IN vote because I prefer to stand and fight rather than run away and try to start again - your choice is your own but you will never convince me it is the correct one. I will watch the thread with interest but then wait for the result, if OUT then I will leave it for a year and ask how well it has gone - fair enough?

[turtle]

Erol,
A bit off topic with the Texas issue but do you really think they would change the constitution to allow this.......really ?

[turtle]

Can we stop this silly "Kettle" stuff please.

You are assuming (and wrongly so) that the UK will not negotiate its own trade deals with manufacturers all over the world and yes it may be that the goods are more expensive but lets not dismiss the idea that there is also a good chance that these goods could be cheaper.

Brand name all over the world manufacture very few goods these days, they just "badge" things and slap a margin on them, my business is full of products that are exactly the same in different colours and name all out of factories that do deals with whoever wants to buy them so not lets get hooked up to the notion that these goods are exclusive to the EU....please.

[erol]

Erol,
A bit off topic with the Texas issue but do you really think they would change the constitution to allow this.......really ?

Turtle there is a context in which I mentioned Texas. That context was your question here of 'is what Daniel Hannan said in the speech you linked to wrong'.

One of the arguments Daniel Hannan made, as far as I understood it, was no other countries choose to give up their sovereignty and join unions with others states - citing that NZ does not seek union (economic or political) with Australia, so why did / does / would the UK seek to do this. It was in this context that I pointed out that the premise that 'no other states do this' was imo flawed - other states do and have done this long before the existence of the EU. That the USA was an example of states choosing to give up their absolute sovereignty in order to join a larger union of states. The UK itself is an example of it. That was why I mentioned Texas. As to if Texas could legally seek succession from the USA if it wanted too, or not, that is irrelevant to the point I was trying to make.

[turtle]

I did not pull your post apart - you asked one question of me, I answered it. It is not my position to tell you if the man is right or wrong in his speech, his unblemished record of doing very little for which he is payed speaks for itself. Provided you are happy to keep funding somebody to do what they want and not what the people he represents wants them I am happy for you. Perhaps if he were to attend more often, vote more often and get more involved in the running of the EU instead of just fighting it then I may change my opinion but he has a lot of history to change before that. The public in general seem quite content to continue to pay their MEPs to do little or nothing and based on that alone I strongly suspect that the referendum vote will be for OUT. That vote will not include my IN vote because I prefer to stand and fight rather than run away and try to start again - your choice is your own but you will never convince me it is the correct one. I will watch the thread with interest but then wait for the result, if OUT then I will leave it for a year and ask how well it has gone - fair enough?

I think then Waddo its a win win because if we vote out we won't have to pay any MEP's at all and save a small fortune It's obvious to me that they are doing a poor job of convincing the public that they are doing a good job in Brussels ?

[erol]

Can we stop this silly "Kettle" stuff please.

You are assuming (and wrongly so) that the UK will not negotiate its own trade deals with manufacturers all over the world and yes it may be that the goods are more expensive but lets not dismiss the idea that there is also a good chance that these goods could be cheaper.

Brand name all over the world manufacture very few goods these days, they just "badge" things and slap a margin on them, my business is full of products that are exactly the same in different colours and name all out of factories that do deals with whoever wants to buy them so not lets get hooked up to the notion that these goods are exclusive to the EU....please.

I am sorry Turtle but you are failing to understand the point I am making or I am failing to explain it properly.

If the UK leaves the EU and 'takes back its sovereignty' then in order for a 'kettle' to be able to be sold in the UK, it will have to pass some form of 'certification' by the UK to ensure that it is safe to be sold there. This will be an additional cost to that company to having to have had such certification done by the EU. This additional cost, that simply does not exist whilst the UK is in the EU, will have to be born by buyers of this product. This seems to me logical and inevitable and if there is a flaw in my logic, something I have missed I would welcome it being pointed out.

Will the UK leaving the EU result in additional cost of 'certification' to companies seeking to sell their products in the UK vs the cost they face currently with the UK inside the EU ? I think the clear answer is yes it will. Will these additional costs in turn result in higher prices for these items in the UK outside of the EU ? I think inevitably yes they will. You may wish we could 'stop such silly talk' but such 'silly talk' from me was in direct response to your claim that no one gives clear examples of why leaving the EU would have negative consequences to 'ordinary people' in the UK.

[mickhm]

What I can't understand is why are the stay brigade not extolling the virtues of the new negotation that they did in order for us to have a referendum? All I hear from the stay side is doom and gloom and how dangerous it would be to leave

[WotNoDeeds]

[waz-24-7]

mickhm
The referendum was a political manoeuvre by the current government in order to win votes. The general public and public opinion talked up by UKIP led to a manifesto item. Fortunately UKIP failed in their local election campaign. Hopefully because most discerning voters have smelt the coffee.
Yes to leave, in my opinion, will result in some serious losses. My posts have clearly illustrated the basis of that thinking. Indeed it is the OUT brigade who fail to provide concrete facts on how we will become stronger and more prosperous. They only preach about how wrong they think the IN s are.
Not a good basis for that vote I think. WotNodeeds. Nice graphic, I await your reasoning please

[waz-24-7]

Turtle
Erol offers a simple economic case to illustrate how the world trades. The Kettle is a simple but effective example. I agree with his comments.
Mr Hannan talks of making unions that are not the same as the EU. NZ/Australia.The UK has benefited from being in the Union for more than 40 successful years. The nature of world trade, economics and indeed populations is ever changing and presents challenging times. The UK is foolhardy to think we can walk away from the benefits in the hope that the problems can be left the other side of the channel. I deem it even more foolhardy that some in the UK thinks going it alone can excuse us from world and Union Issues simply based on an ability to act alone.

[turtle]

Erol
What you are saying (I think) is that this "kettle" is made to a certain standard that meets the EU regs, I agree with that but what is stopping the UK buying that kettle from the same source at the same spec ?.
If its the price that is getting in the way here then it's up to the UK to negotiate that price on all our behalf yes/no ?

If what you are saying is that this new price will be higher to a degree that we can not afford it then we would find another source surely, yes the quality has to be to a certain standard but should not be a problem...incidentally the UK and other EU countries are awash with imported poor quality goods that they either fail to stop or just turn a blind eye to so these items are freely available on the open market. I don't see the EU regulations in action here ?

I really do not see a problem with the UK adopting what is good about the EU and ditching the endless bureaucracy some of which you have just told us all about in your posts.

[turtle]

Waz
I am quite sure you would not question anybody's view who is an "IN" supporter.?

Neither you nor Erol have spoken about what is not good about the EU according to the IN camp everything is just fine and the old chesnut of sitting at the big table having an influence well Mr Cameron's recent seat at the big table changed ziltch and tells me and many thousands more that we have little influence or we wouldn't be having this discussion right now.

[turtle]

I think I have made my point now so I think I will take an interest from my armchair for a while.

I have heard nothing on here to convince me it would be better to stay in the EU.

[erol]

Erol
What you are saying (I think) is that this "kettle" is made to a certain standard that meets the EU regs, I agree with that but what is stopping the UK buying that kettle from the same source at the same spec ?.
If its the price that is getting in the way here then it's up to the UK to negotiate that price on all our behalf yes/no ?

No I am saying it costs money to the maker of the kettle to prove to the UK that it's kettle meet's the UK standards for such things so that the maker can sell that kettle in the UK. With the UK In the EU the cost to the maker of this is X - the cost of getting an EU certification. With the UK outside of it the cost to the maker is X (cost of getting EU certification) AND Y - the cost of getting UK certification. That is the cost has increased with the UK outside of the EU vs what it cost the kettle maker today with the UK inside the EU.

If what you are saying is that this new price will be higher to a degree that we can not afford it .....

I am saying it costs a kettle maker more to get the certification to sell their kettles in to the UK and the rest of EU if the UK is outside the EU because that requires two certifications vs the scenario where the UK is inside the EU - where it just cost for one single certification that covers the UK as well as the rest of the EU. Higher cost will mean higher price. I am NOT saying that higher price will make kettles unaffordable in the UK. I AM saying kettles will cost more to people in the UK because the cost involved in being able to sell them in the UK will be higher with the UK outside of the EU.

Really it is not that sophisticated an argument is it, that it is so hard to understand what I am saying ?

I really do not see a problem with the UK adopting what is good about the EU and ditching the endless bureaucracy some of which you have just told us all about in your posts.

Governments ensuring that kettles sold in places under their jurisdiction are safe is not 'endless bureaucracy' - it is a valid and useful function of government as far as I am concerned. Inside the EU that cost is born once across the entire EU and all the kettle buyers in the EU. With the UK outside it that cost is duplicated and this INCREASE in cost (and bureaucracy) is born by kettle buyers in the UK. That is the whole point I am making.

You could have 'sovereignty' of England, Wales and Scotland such that a kettle maker would have to pay to get Certification from an English government body so they can sell their kettle in England, and pay again to get another certification from a Scottish government body to be able to sell them in Scotland and a Welsh one to sell them in Wales but such would, indeed must, lead to kettles costing more in all of those places than a single UK wide certification. Expanded to the EU the situation is no different.

This not just about kettles an it is not just about the cost of obtaining certification. Cost of certification is just the clearest example but it is not the only cost that increases in a more 'fractional' trading environment.

Sure in the case of 'certification' the UK outside of the EU could just say 'if it is certified as OK for sale in the EU (or USA or wherever)' then we will say it is OK to sell it in the UK without the need for any UK based certification. We could say that but it would mean that the EU (or the USA or wherever) gets to decide what is safe for sale in the UK and the UK would have no say in that certification process at all. Or it could say we will allow anything with EU certification (or USA certification etc) to be sold in the UK but we may have a list of 'exceptions' where by some items will not be OK with a EU or USA certification and others will be. This would itself lead to a whole series of costs of government departments to define which items are covered by other countries certifications and which are not and arguments about is a jafa cake a biscuit or a cake and costs to companies in employing 'UK certification experts' paid just to tell them if they even need a separate UK certification to sell their 'thing' in the UK or not.

[erol]

Waz
I am quite sure you would not question anybody's view who is an "IN" supporter.?

Neither you nor Erol have spoken about what is not good about the EU according to the IN camp everything is just fine and the old chesnut of sitting at the big table having an influence well Mr Cameron's recent seat at the big table changed ziltch and tells me and many thousands more that we have little influence or we wouldn't be having this discussion right now.

The EU is a mess. It is in major need or reform. There are fundamental 'democratic deficiencies' in it's structures, though these are nothing to do with the fact that the unelected Commission drafts EU legislation. However none of that means therefore it is in the UK best interest to leave the EU rather than stay within it and seek to reform and improve it and address the current failings in it.

This idea that those who support the UK staying inside the EU are claiming that 'everything in the EU is fine' is quite frankly nonsense and demonstrably so and personally I find it quite insulting to boot.

Try reading the views of Yanis Varoufakis on the EU and if the citizens of the UK should vote to stay in or out of the EU. A more vociferous and reasoned critic of the EU and its structures would be hard to find. Yet he ALSO argues that the UK should choose to remain inside the EU despite its problems and failings.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/a ... ave-the-eu

or if you prefer video to text try



He is just one example, I think, of why your claim that those who argue for the UK to remain within the EU say that 'everything is fine', is just made up nonsense divorced from actual reality. To me such claims are nothing more than a 'sound bite' devoid of any actual substance at all.

The way to reform the EU is not to declare the UK will have an in/out referendum, motivated purely by parochial UK party political needs, and then try and use that 'threat' to 'force' others members of the EU to grant ever more special exceptions and exemptions and 'opt outs' to the UK alone within the EU. That is the way, imo, to undermine the chances of securing the kind of reform that the EU actually needs not achieve it. The way to reform the EU it to put in the hard work of building alliances across the members of the EU, steadily, thoughtfully and always being willing to put the bigger picture ahead of short term party politics, for the benefit of the EU in general. The calling of this referendum, now, in the way it was called is in my view a despicable farce. The 'going to Brussels to get more concessions for the UK alone' was a farce. I want a reformed EU with the UK in it and I do not believe that Cameron threatening to throw the UK toys out the pram unless he got some special 'deal' from the EU was the right way to go about securing real meaningful reform of the EU. I do not think such actions benefit the UK or the EU or anyone except Cameron himself and even that is debatable. To me the whole thing, pledging to have a referendum if the Tories got a majority government at last election, going to Brussels to try and extract more concessions for the UK alone and having the referendum, has been nothing but short term political opportunism on the part of Cameron regardless of the 'cost' of such.

[waz-24-7]

Turtle,
I support the concise and accurate points made by Erol. Not because he is IN but because his factual comments are very true and plausible.
The European Union is very far from perfect and reform is needed, I agree. The UK democracy is far from ideal also. Certainly the issues Europe and indeed the world are having to face are the most challenging to date. The UK can play its part and help attain solution OR it can withdraw in the desperate hope that these same issues will not wash up on our shores,
Our Prime minister has continued to negotiate for UK interests in Brussels . If you deem he has failed then dismiss him via normal democratic channels. Not slam the door and burn the bridges of the Union that has helped the UK prosper for the past 40 years.

[Dalartokat]

http://data.parliament.uk/writteneviden ... 33182.html


For anyone interested, this is evidence given on behalf of "Leave EU" before The Treasury Committee. The discussion on this thread regarding trading with the EU if UK were to leave, maybe could/should be compared with the opinions of the Chief Executive of "Leave EU". It becomes more interesting from Q1792 onwards(my opinion).

Think people should remember that anything said either by IN or OUT is only opinions or predictions by everyone.


All of the evidence by both sides so far is here:

http://www.parliament.uk/business/commi ... hip-15-16/

[kerry 6138]

I think I have made my point now so I think I will take an interest from my armchair for a while.

I have heard nothing on here to convince me it would be better to stay in the EU.

I'm with you turtle before the pot gets involved and calls the kettle black.

[kibsolar1999]

it is not the case that all in europe is regulated and this leads often to higher prices as neccessary. Eg, it will be difficult, even with a hammer, to plug an english kettle into a german socket.
The cost of closed borders in europe (not a complete EXIT) are estimated as 120 billion a year. Approx 3% they said. So guess what an Exit might cost at borders and customes and so on.. 5 or 10%?
İf additionally the GBP drops to say, equal 1 euro, then the kettle does not cost say (20 euro or) 16 GBP as today, it will come to 21 GBP or more.. on top the gov must generate more income = 25 GBP? Whatever.
Well, many say ....I want a reformed EU with the UK in it.....
Please do not forget the especially the UK are often named as “reform blockers” within the EU.
and
....that the unelected Commission....
i do not know how this always finds its way into peoples mind. The EU commission president and then his/hers comission members are “suggested”, yes (actually be the single member states governments) , but finally elected by the european parliament, which is elected by all european citizens.
Apart money.. from article 3 of the EU contracts:
The EU shall combat social exclusion and discrimination and promote social justice
and social protection (comment: this applies also for the single memberstates “at home” as they are part of the EU.. so much about my comments about “Britain should do its homework”) and
..... It shall promote economic, social and territorial cohesion and the
Solidarity between Member States.

If you do not want that.. leave and continue to work on the anglo-american way of capitalism..

[waz-24-7]

Kibsolar1999
Many products in the UK are manufactured and sold into Europe and indeed elsewhere as ready to go and plug and play. More than 45% of UK manufactured cars are left hand drive. BMW Mini alone creates revenue of circa £6 million per working day.
AS an IN voter I am certainly fully supportive of EU reform going forward. The UK stands its ground in negotiations as you have identified. The most certain future lies IN the EU with onward involvement in reform towards prosperity. The UK leads the way in that domain at this moment.
Anglo American capitalism is fully functional and our DTI do not let any opportunity go slip by. Your suggestion will not replace the loss of trade and investment following an exit and if it did it would take many years just to return to 1st base.

[waz-24-7]

I am pleased to report: Governor of the bank of England Mr Mark carney has aligned himself with my own thinking that an exit from the European Union will indeed result in a Recession in the UK. Trade and investment forecast to decline due to the associated loss in confidence in the UK economy.
Anyone with any understanding of how important trade , commerce, investment is to the welfare of the UK will see the associated risk in an OUT vote and act accordingly.
VOTE IN.