Election results

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niceone
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Election results

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Post by niceone »

No posts about this, so strange, I guess everybody is in shock, the landslide the conservatives expected did not happen

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Re: Election results

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Art
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Re: Election results

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Post by Art »

I don't think this was a vote for labour or against the Conservatives-more like a vote againt Theresa May who completely lost the plot during a terrible campaign.

Just my thoughts of course.
Last edited by Art on Sun 11 Jun 2017 6:52 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Election results

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Post by Johnny Lee »

Very stupid woman. Shot her self in the foot. This tells me she is not up to the job. But god knows who is with the exception of Nigel Farage.

Why are all the present politicians so weak and feeble ?

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Re: Election results

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Post by waddo »

Why are all the present politicians so weak and feeble ?

Because their constituents voted them in???
Make happy those who are near and those who are far will come!

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Re: Election results

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Post by kerry 6138 »

 

UKIP were the only party giving voice to peoples concerns about the EU pre referendum.

Mrs May lost out because she interpreted the Brexit vote has a political move to the right and tried to introduce usual right wing programs like Social Care Tax abolishing free school meals, into what could have been a mandate to deal with Brexit forcing people like me who traditionally vote Labour but voted leave in the referendum to think again.

Labour lost (despite what Corbyn believes) because of the likes of Ms.Abbot and Corbyn himself being unpopular with large swathes of Labour voters, almost any other Labour MP has leader could have turned that into a win.

The lead the Tories had in the polls allowed Labour to write an aspirational manifesto £10 hour minimum wage etc. the master stroke being abolition student loans which brought out the younger voters but they probably believed they wouldn't have to impliment these because the poll stats at the time, the spin doctors must have been working overtime has the polls narrowed in the last week.

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Re: Election results

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Post by erol »

It is time for politicians to stop using Brexit for narrow party political objectives. The issue is simply too important, the stakes too high and the timescales too short to allow this petty game playing to continue any longer. No single party alone has the necessary authority, mandate or ability to negotiate and implement our managed exit from the EU. The only way to successfully deliver on Brexit that does not plunge the UK in to the nightmare of a 'no deal' crash out exit is to build a cross party consensus. Those who refuse to accept that we are leaving the EU and those who refuse to accept any kind of exit other than their own preferred kind should be pushed to the margins where they belong. It truly is time for politicians to respect the will of the people and to put the National interest ahead of self and party interest. Get on with it.

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Re: Election results

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Post by erol »

Trying to maintain the 'jeopardy' that the UK is prepared to leave the EU without a deal in order to have a strong negotiating position is simply the wrong approach. To maintain that unless we can get a fair and equitable deal with regards to EU exit, we are prepared to inflict even greater damage on ourselves and those we negotiate with is the strategy of a buffoon. The 'jeopardy' we should be using in the event we find ourselves faced with demands we can not and will not meet is not to threaten to leave without a deal but actually to threaten to NOT leave unless and until a more reasonable proposal is offered for our exit. A threat to stay as unwilling partners under duress that will veto everything we can, that will seek to thwart and undermine everything we can, until we are presented with an exit deal that is fair and reasonable.

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Re: Election results

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Post by kerry 6138 »

erol wrote: The 'jeopardy' we should be using in the event we find ourselves faced with demands we can not and will not meet is not to threaten to leave without a deal but actually to threaten to NOT leave unless and until a more reasonable proposal is offered for our exit. A threat to stay as unwilling partners under duress that will veto everything we can, that will seek to thwart and undermine everything we can, until we are presented with an exit deal that is fair and reasonable.
This tactic should have been used when Cameron embarked on his renegotiation trip pre referendum my understanding is now that article 50 has been trigered we have 2 years to negotiate a deal or we automatically leave, so how do we threaten not to leave?
I agree these are so important there should be cross party involvement in the negotiations just like there was during the referendum campaign for leave and remain.

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Re: Election results

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Post by erol »

kerry 6138 wrote: so how do we threaten not to leave?
We pass a motion in Parliament to revoke article 50 and then send a letter to the EU saying we are revoking article 50. The answer to can we legally do this as far as I can tell is that no one really knows but then even the threat of spending years if not decades of legal wrangling over the legality of such serves a very similar purpose in any case.

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Post by erol »

kerry 6138 wrote:I agree these are so important there should be cross party involvement in the negotiations just like there was during the referendum campaign for leave and remain.
It is not just that the issue is so important, which it is, it is also the fact that it is now simply impossible for a managed Brexit to be implemented other than through cross party support and co operation. Such an exit will require multiple bills to pass through Parliament, maybe as many as 10 or more and that is simply impossible without cross party support given the result of the election. That it appears that TM thinks she can force everyone else to support her own parochial extreme version of Brexit without any need for any compromise on her part or inclusion of others by simply accusing them of trying to 'thwart the will of the people' is a strategy that simply can not work. We have to stop these petty (by comparison to the importance of Brexit) political games and stop them now.

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Post by erol »

kerry 6138 wrote: This tactic should have been used when Cameron embarked on his renegotiation trip pre referendum ...
I think it should have been used after the referendum but before we triggered article 50 and in response to the EU saying 'there can be no negotiation until article 50 is triggered'. At that point we should have said , fine if you wont negotiate before article 50 is triggered, we will veto and thwart everything we can in the EU until you do start negotiating our exit. But the time for discussing 'should have done' has expired. We are where we are and the clock is ticking and we now have to stop pissing about and get on with what needs to be done. If TM is unable to do what needs to be done then the quicker the Tories remove her and put in place someone who is able to do so the better.

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Post by Dalartokat »

There is a really interesting piece going into The Times today by Political Editor Tim Shipman regarding Theresa May and the many balls she is going to have to juggle to stay and the feuding that is starting from the aftermath of the Election.

If you don't want to listen to all of the Stephen Nolan Show Radio 5 live then you can listen from 3:4 onwards. Hopefully you can get this.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08sl7vn
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Re: Election results

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Post by erol »

Dalartokat wrote:... to stay and the feuding that is starting from the aftermath of the Election.
I have had enough of this. We no longer have the time for all this. I do not care who leads the government now, TM, BJ, JC or Ronald MacDonald. All I care about now is that they start doing what must be done, which is to put in place a cross party consensus approach to Brexit and start negotiating with the EU from that basis. Enough is enough !

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Re: Election results

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Post by David »

Lets get on with Brexit now

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Re: Election results

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Post by Dalartokat »

erol wrote:
Dalartokat wrote:... to stay and the feuding that is starting from the aftermath of the Election.
I have had enough of this. We no longer have the time for all this. I do not care who leads the government now, TM, BJ, JC or Ronald MacDonald. All I care about now is that they start doing what must be done, which is to put in place a cross party consensus approach to Brexit and start negotiating with the EU from that basis. Enough is enough !

Cabinet reshuffle taking place so Theresa May, might have got the message that Brexit is important. Damian Green and Liz Truss expected to be moved.


TM is finished and is just a hostage to the Conservatives or as George Osbourne has said, "dead person walking"
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Post by turtle »

I am absolutely gobsmacked with the support for Corbyn and the Labour vote in general,... obviously promises that would not have been kept bought off voters...shame on them!....It was only months ago that 170 of his own party were crying for his head.

May failed with her manifesto and a disastrous campaign and she will now pay the price but please God not the Labour party for power,... it would be suicidal.

And as for a cross party delegate for Brexit this would sink the whole thing,... Tim dim Farron will not have any talk of leaving, Labour can,t decide in or out and have never given a clear indication either way and the Tories are intent on coming out so put that lot together and you have a recipe for a complete meltdown (or maybe that is the plan?).
Perhaps at the next election the Tories should promise the same as Corbyn and more besides....that would create total confusion amongst the voters that rarely look beneath the surface.

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Post by David »

Stay strong Theresa dont let the buggers grind you down

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Re: Election results

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Post by kerry 6138 »

Tory 1922 committee should meet first thing Monday morning and put Andrea Leadsom, runner up in last leadership election and prominent member of the Leave campaign in charge.

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Post by erol »

turtle wrote:I am absolutely gobsmacked with the support for Corbyn and the Labour vote in general,...
Hubris will often do that I understand.
turtle wrote:obviously promises that would not have been kept bought off voters...shame on them!....
No shame on the Tories for making promises they could not and have not kept, in 2010, 2015 and again in 2017, like reducing net migration to 10s of thousands ? Like the 2010 pledge to reject any proposals to fund care by levying charge on elderly people’s estates after death, no shame there ? Like balancing the budget and on and on. To me the only difference between Labour and the Tories in this regard is that whilst it still remains assumption, suspicion or speculation, no matter how strong or certain, that Labour is making promises it knows it can not keep, we know as absolute fact that the Tories have made such pledges in election after election that they did not keep.
turtle wrote:And as for a cross party delegate for Brexit this would sink the whole thing,... Tim dim Farron will not have any talk of leaving, Labour can,t decide in or out and have never given a clear indication either way and the Tories are intent on coming out so put that lot together and you have a recipe for a complete meltdown (or maybe that is the plan?).
Firstly if such an attempt were to be made and it proved impossible to forge a consensus position, then we would simply be where we are now. So to argue that such an attempt would 'sink Brexit' to me seems to be about as unsound a logic as you could come up with. Give them a week to find such a position if you like, the positions and issues are known and understood by all and if it fails then sure keeping steaming ahead in to the on coming iceberg regadless. At least it could be said 'we' tried.

More importantly it seems to me is that you appear to be in the same kind of, no doubt shock induced, total denial as TM. The simple reality now is, whether you or I or TM likes it or not, that the Tories alone simply do not have the ability to secure a managed exit from the EU without cross party support. It is just impossible. It is just simple maths. The only possible outcomes of such an attempt would be either an un-managed no deal crash out of the EU (or maybe that is the plan?) or a successful vote of no confidence leading to a potential new General Election and the very real possibility of either Labour as the largest single party with no majority supported by SNP and Lib Dems or with a majority, the former of which in turn is actually the only possible way, however remote, that those who still dream of 'sinking Brexit' could ever reach that goal.
turtle wrote:Perhaps at the next election the Tories should promise the same as Corbyn and more besides....that would create total confusion amongst the voters that rarely look beneath the surface.
Voters are stupid, voters are influenced and manipulated by campaign promises that can never be met, unless of course they are voting in a referendum and they happen to vote the way you want Turtle ? I really am not trying to be personal here but that seems to me to be your position and I can find no other way of expressing this. The inconsistency from what you have written and said about voters with regards to this vote and that of the referendum are to me at least large and glaring. As could also be said with regards to the necessity to 'respect democracy' and the 'will of the people' and the need to 'now come together and get on with the job'

But none of this matter now. We have no more time for any of this stuff. Sure if your objective is or you are happy with a UK un managed, no deal, crash out exit from the EU, then sure advocate carrying on as if the last election changed nothing and the probability is that you will get your desire, though at the outside risk of actually getting your worst nightmare, a Labour government supported by Lib Dems and SNP driving Brexit.

If however you genuinely believe, as I do, that we must now 'come together' in the 'national interest' and both negotiate and implement a managed exit of the UK from the EU then the only option now left is for us to seek to try and build a consensus approach to such, for that is now the only way forward that can deliver such. Yes doing this will mean for many compromising on personal absolute desires but the stakes are just too high not just for 10s of millions living in the UK now but also potentially for generations of UK citizens to come. I personally sincerely believe this is now the only way forward for the UK. A view also shared I might add by the likes of Ruth Davidson, a Tory 'leader' who unlike TM and DC before her, did not stake all on a monumental political gamble and lose and who's efforts and political astuteness pretty much single handedly saved you and the Tories and the country from your own worst nightmare.

Time has run out and every hour we now spend trying to avoid or deny the plain reality of the perilous position we are now in, is an hour we simply can not afford to waste.

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Post by erol »

David wrote:Stay strong Theresa dont let the buggers grind you down
Who would those 'buggers' be David ? The British electorate perhaps ? Can you really not see that political 'beliefs' are simply irrelevant in the face of the cold hard unyielding factual reality of the election result and our political system and the monumental task of not just negotiating but also implementing Brexit under a ticking clock and the sheer scale of consequences if we get it wrong ?

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kerry 6138 wrote:Tory 1922 committee should meet first thing Monday morning and put Andrea Leadsom, runner up in last leadership election and prominent member of the Leave campaign in charge.
I do not get it Kerry ? How will that help things in face of the reality that it is now impossible for the Tories to deliver Brexit (other than a crash out) without cross party support ? Or do you believe Andrea Leadsom would be more willing and / or able to gain such support than TM ?

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No shame on the Tories for making promises they could not and have not kept, in 2010, 2015 and again in 2017, like reducing net migration to 10s of thousands ? Like the 2010 pledge to reject any proposals to fund care by levying charge on elderly people’s estates after death, no shame there ? Like balancing the budget and on and on. To me the only difference between Labour and the Tories in this regard is that whilst it still remains assumption, suspicion or speculation, no matter how strong or certain, that Labour is making promises it knows it can not keep, we know as absolute fact that the Tories have made such pledges in election after election that they did not keep.
Erol
That argument is flawed and you know it...arguing for sake of it seems to be a speciality of yours ...

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Post by rocking »

Corby didn't stand a chance, then 3 weeks after election calledhe bought in a fantastic public relations advisor. I would have sacked mine after a week had I been Mrs May, butkeep strong, learn a lesson. May won, but looking at tv and papers old never know this, plus the biased British broadcasting did no favours.

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turtle wrote: That argument is flawed and you know it...arguing for sake of it seems to be a speciality of yours ...
Sorry but actually I do not see the flaw in the suggestion that Labour making undeliverable pledges in it's manifesto is little different from the Tories or for a more stark comparison even, the Vote leave campaign. If you would like to expand on why you think it is flawed I personally would welcome such from you. If however you would prefer to discuss my personal character flaws, then I am afraid that is not a discussion I have much interest in engaging with here.

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Re: Election results

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Post by elizabeth »

Tories 318
Labour. 262

So who won?

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elizabeth wrote:Tories 318
Labour. 262

So who won?
I already expressed my views on this before the election which can be seen here http://www.kibkomnorthcyprusforum.com/v ... 42#p183442 on the off chance you or anyone else is interested.

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elizabeth wrote:Tories 318
Labour. 262

So who won?
This, from the BBC, may serve to answer your question: -

"Almost everybody lost

This is a result that brought disappointment to all parties.

The Conservatives lost their majority.

Labour suffered its third defeat in a row.

The Liberal Democrats found themselves treading water.

The SNP's independence bandwagon came to a juddering halt.

And UKIP imploded.

It is not only Conservatives who will be asking why Mrs May changed her mind about holding a snap election.

The only winners are perhaps the DUP - to whom she seems to have awarded the role of kingmakers."

http://www.bbc.com/news/election-2017-40219338

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erol wrote:
turtle wrote: That argument is flawed and you know it...arguing for sake of it seems to be a speciality of yours ...
Sorry but actually I do not see the flaw in the suggestion that Labour making undeliverable pledges in it's manifesto is little different from the Tories or for a more stark comparison even, the Vote leave campaign. If you would like to expand on why you think it is flawed I personally would welcome such from you. If however you would prefer to discuss my personal character flaws, then I am afraid that is not a discussion I have much interest in engaging with here.
But Erol the flaw is the fact that you are quick to berate the Tories but are quite happy to defend Labour for doing exactly the same thing.....sorry but you can't have it both ways.
As regards your personal character flaws I certainly have no interest in either

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turtle wrote: But Erol the flaw is the fact that you are quick to berate the Tories but are quite happy to defend Labour for doing exactly the same thing.....sorry but you can't have it both ways.
Thanks for explaining further and I do see where you are coming from. In my defence I would suggest that berating the Tories for their actual record vs their previous manifesto pledges (something I did do) is not really the same thing as claiming that the act of making pledges that are not kept, or arguably can not be kept is 'shameful behaviour' (something I did not do imo). I do accept that difference is somewhat subtle. I also have to say that it still feels like you yourself seem to wish to have it both ways - berating Labour for such 'shameful behaviour' whilst ignoring it when from the Tories ?
turtle wrote: As regards your personal character flaws I certainly have no interest in either
Is that a suggestion that I only have two such flaws ?

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Post by turtle »

No shame on the Tories for making promises they could not and have not kept, in 2010, 2015 and again in 2017, like reducing net migration to 10s of thousands ? Like the 2010 pledge to reject any proposals to fund care by levying charge on elderly people’s estates after death, no shame there ?
Another flaw as you well know is that immigration is virtually impossible to reduce while in the EU....the silly rules will not allow this and yes you could argue that they should not have made this promise but surely people know this can not happen until we leave the EU ?
As for charges on the elderly care there was no promise in 2010 or 2015 manifesto's so stop misleading people.

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turtle wrote:Another flaw as you well know is that immigration is virtually impossible to reduce while in the EU....the silly rules will not allow this and yes you could argue that they should not have made this promise but surely people know this can not happen until we leave the EU ?
As for charges on the elderly care there was no promise in 2010 or 2015 manifesto's so stop misleading people.
I thought that was exactly the thing that you were berating Labour for having done and labelling as 'shameful', to have made promises that you claim they know they will not be able to keep ? As far as Tory manifesto pledges re social care there absolutely were pledges in the the 2010 and 2015 manifestos that were absolutely reversed in the 2017 one. Really when it get's to the point where I am openly accused of seeking to 'mislead' (lie to) people over something that is a plain matter of fact, then that is the point at which I will bow out of the discussion I think

For what it is worth and in defence of nothing more than truth.

Source - http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... clnk&gl=cy
bbc website on 2010 conservative manifesto wrote:Reject any proposals to fund care by levying charge on elderly people’s estates after death.
source - https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/mani ... to2015.pdf
Conservative manifesto 2015 page 67 wrote:ensure Britain has a strong economy, so we can continue to protect the NHS and make sure
no-one is forced to sell their home to pay for care.

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Post by turtle »

Ahh...no mention of Andy Burnhams plans for the National Care Service some years ago ??
Go on just for "fairness" tell the readers the ins and outs of that little gem...

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Post by erol »

Finally some signs that sanity may be emerging from the current political chaos

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... emy-corbyn
Political support grows for cross-party approach to Brexit negotiations
Theresa May under pressure from across political spectrum to build plural coalition – including Jeremy Corbyn – before EU talks.
The idea that the Westminster parties should cooperate on Brexit negotiations is gaining support from the public, businesses and senior politicians from across the political spectrum.With less than a week before formal negotiations with the EU are due to get under way, politicians including John Major, William Hague, Yvette Cooper, Harriet Harman and Nicola Sturgeon are openly calling for all parties to be involved in the talks.
A post-election poll by YouGov found that 51% would prefer Brexit to be negotiated by a cross-party team.
You may remember YouGov, they were one of the only two polling organisations to predict a hung parliament before the election.

For me this is no longer about 'politics' - it is a matter of maths. It is mathematically possible that a Tory /DUP allaince with a parliamentary total of 328 seats could push through the nine or more bills necessary to deliver on Brexit but it would be the equivalent of flipping heads nine times in a row and these are not the kind of odds you want in order to merely be able to implement a managed exit of the UK from the EU. A deal that can not be implement through the passing of the necessary bills in parliament is not a deal.

Let us be clear however that those 'extreme' Brexiters, those who want nothing other than a total and 'immediate', non reversible, withdrawal from every and all aspects of the EU and who will not accept any compromise at all, regardless of what the consequences may be and regardless of what the majority want, will scream and screech and wail and gnash their teeth. They will rage about 'respecting the will of the people' , whilst ignoring all and any evidence that actually the will of the majority of the people is now that we should, indeed must, have a cross party approach to Brexit. They will do everything in their power to get what they want, use every dirty trick, every distortion and deception. We will no doubt see it here on this forum. Yet in the face of a cross party consensus such will all be to no avail. 50 'rebels' against it in the Tory ranks or Labour ranks, will not matter, will not be able to block the parliamentary bills necessary, will not be able to blackmail the whole country and generations to come to get their way. 75, 100 , 150 - still will not matter in the face of a cross party consensus. The extremist, the ones who will accept no compromise at all on what they want, will be pushed to the margins, where they belong and where they have always belonged, instead of being the ones driving the agenda as they will do more than ever under any attempts to deliver on Brexit from a single party alone, where a mere 5 or 10 of them could hold the entire country to ransom by threatening to 'rebel' against the bills necessary to implement and deliver on Brexit.

I do not know what kind of Brexit agenda a cross party consensus would come up with. It may come up with an agenda that I personally dislike intensely but it really does not matter. We have no time left. We have to now work within the limits of what is possible and all of us have to abandon our 'maximalist' demands in pursuit of delivering a managed exit of the UK from the EU. But let us suppose for a moment that what it looks like is some kind of continued participation in some form of the 'single market' - you know the thing that was the EEC before the EU came along, the thing that during the referendum debate it was widely claimed was the thing we did 'sign up for' and that generally we were 'ok' with. Would this not give us a chance to 'see how things go' without closing future options ? That if in 5 or 10 years after Brexit we were to decide that actually we also wanted to leave whatever form of 'single market' participation a cross party Brexit agenda might deliver, we would be free to do so in a planned and managed manner. Be in no doubt that for some on the extreme Brexit side that is the whole point of seeking a total exit now without any compromise, because if in 5 or 10 or 20 years we come to decide that actually it was a mistake, there will be no way back. No way back if 60% of the people want such or 70 or 80 or 90. For this extremist minority do not just want to throw the baby out with the bath water, they want the baby's throat slit and the mother sterilised as well for good measure.

If you support the idea, the logic the sense of accepting that we now have no other realistic means of delivering Brexit other than via a cross party approach then I urge you to sign the petition below.

https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/ ... 1497119338

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