Labour for SOFT, Consevative for HARD BREXIT

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Mon 26 Feb 2018 8:04 pm

We now appear to see the true colours of the two major UK political parties as BREXIT looms.

Mr Corbin has been somewhat forced to present a soft BREXIT. Remaining in the Customs Union and possibly the single market economy.

Mrs May appears to take the path of a HARD Brexit. Out on ALL fronts.
This somewhat startling development really does put the cat amongst the pigeons.

Will we see some right wing voters moving allegiance's to the left for the SOFT approach and vice versa some left wing voters flying the HARD BREXIT conservative flag,

Maisiemoo · Post by **Maisiemoo** » Mon 26 Feb 2018 8:29 pm

I listened to his speech and he mentioned 'a' Cutoms Union, not 'the' Customs Union, a very subtle difference and something that would have to be negotiated IF the Labour Party were in power.

13roman58 · Post by **13roman58** » Mon 26 Feb 2018 9:10 pm

If labour got into power God forbid with that nutter in charge!!!!

kibsolar1999 · Post by **kibsolar1999** » Mon 26 Feb 2018 9:25 pm

'a' Cutoms Union was an attempt from T.May already.
to my opinion there are 3 possible solutions
1. remain (no brexit)
2. norway (soft soft brexit)
3. botswana (hard brexit)

anything else " in between" will be rejected from the EU.

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Mon 26 Feb 2018 9:33 pm

13roman58 wrote:If labour got into power God forbid with that nutter in charge!!!!

I would agree. I fear what Mr Corbin may inflict on us post BREXIT.
However his soft approach is sounding more favorable than Mrs May's approach which I believe is disastrous, at least at this juncture.

elizabeth · Post by **elizabeth** » Mon 26 Feb 2018 9:50 pm

Labour, under Comrade Corbyn and his Commie friends, would destroy the country in no time at all.

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Mon 26 Feb 2018 10:07 pm

Corbyn is a fake and should not be trusted, why would anyone trust a man who leaves it to the last minute in such an important issue... and for me the only thing he is doing is trying to derail the ongoing process.
He couldn't care less about the EU and has campaigned against it for long enough, it's just a childish attempt to oust Mrs May and when he gets in you will not know what will hit the UK...... bankrupt within a few years is my prediction......watch the beloved EU cut us adrift then.

I simply can not understand why anyone would want to stay shackled to a failing corrupt organisation when the whole world beckons for us to trade with. Then again why would we want to trade with the whole world when a small dictatorial shrinking club will do......beats me.

erol · Post by **erol** » Mon 26 Feb 2018 10:25 pm

Hard Brexit - the world will not end. Saying it will is just 'fear mongering'

Corbyn in power - the world will not end. Saying it will is just 'fear mongering'

It is not a binary choice between trade with the EU and no one else or trade with everyone else and not the EU. We trade with the whole world already even whilst in the EU. After Brexit we will still trade with the EU. The issue is under what terms the trade will be not if we will trade at all.

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Mon 26 Feb 2018 11:03 pm

Never said the world will end Erol....and yes we do trade with parts of the world but on very limited and strict insular inward looking rules.
People seem to think that the EU is the answer to all our problems,..sorry can't buy that the future is doing our own trade deals around the world and not being held back by the EU.

erol · Post by **erol** » Tue 27 Feb 2018 12:26 am

turtle wrote:Never said the world will end Erol...

No but look at some of the comments above about the prospect of Corbyn being the next PM in the uk

turtle wrote:and yes we do trade with parts of the world but on very limited and strict insular inward looking rules.
People seem to think that the EU is the answer to all our problems,..sorry can't buy that the future is doing our own trade deals around the world and not being held back by the EU.

Being in the EU is not the answer to all our problems and being out of it is not the answer to all our problems either. Whilst in the EU we did participate in 'doing trade deals' around the world and benefit from them. Maybe the EU is 'holding us back' but it seems to me that any country or group of countries would want to do as many beneficial trade deals as possible ? I see no obvious reason why we are more likely to be able to do more of them better alone than as part of the EU but maybe I am missing something ? I can see how it might take longer to do a deal as the EU, because its bigger and covers more interests but is that not offset by it also being a bigger market and thus a more enticing prospect for any prospective 'trade partner' around around the globe ?

sophie · Post by **sophie** » Tue 27 Feb 2018 4:42 pm

Isn't his present stance just a sop to placate the Scots and the Irish. A plague on all their houses! Horrible untrustworthy man.

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Tue 27 Feb 2018 5:03 pm

erol wrote:Hard Brexit - the world will not end. Saying it will is just 'fear mongering'

Corbyn in power - the world will not end. Saying it will is just 'fear mongering'

It is not a binary choice between trade with the EU and no one else or trade with everyone else and not the EU. We trade with the whole world already even whilst in the EU. After Brexit we will still trade with the EU. The issue is under what terms the trade will be not if we will trade at all.

I agree we will certainly trade with the EU.
However one should consider the view that businesses in the UK are indeed EU businesses and trade freely with all the 27.
My great fear is that these EU businesses of which many are large and foreign owned will want and indeed need to remain an EU business.
They will up sticks and depart as easily as 123.
I firmly believe that large and small EU businesses have contingency measure in place to face and deal with HARD or SOFT outcome.
Financial services, automotive, are definitely making us aware of looming possibilities.

The UK cannot prosper with inward attitudes and protectionism. We are simply too small a fish in the global market. The USA on the other hand can and Mr trump will do this because he can.
The UK cannot and it is false hope to think we can . Survive we will but poorer and less prosperous in my view.

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Tue 27 Feb 2018 6:44 pm

Waz,.. do you see no benefit at all in the UK doing deals with all the major trading nations of the world ?
Surely sticking with the inward looking/trading EU is a hindrance to our prosperity when we could be doing deals all over the world. ?

topten · Post by **topten** » Tue 27 Feb 2018 7:46 pm

The union is already in turmoil over the shortfall in revenue when the UK leaves, talking about increasing in the payment for membership and other Countries taking less out.

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Tue 27 Feb 2018 10:19 pm

turtle wrote:Waz,.. do you see no benefit at all in the UK doing deals with all the major trading nations of the world ?
Surely sticking with the inward looking/trading EU is a hindrance to our prosperity when we could be doing deals all over the world. ?

Turtle.
Given the strong position the UK has enjoyed pre referendum, strong economy, stable and respected currency. We were in a good position to enlarge our influence within Europe. Certainly the EU has problems but no greater than those we currently face.

With regard to World trade. You must remember that most trade is done with nearest and closest neighbours (the EU)
Consider for example the additional costs in trading further afield. Transport and logistical costs can quickly make you uncompetitive.
Its like suddenly having to travel much further to do your food shopping. People but from their most local superstore because its close, convenient and cheaper.

Of course we will indeed capitalise to maximum advantage opportunities that emerge across the world. This type of trade is not however for the small to medium enterprises who don't have the resources to travel the world regardless of the trade deals that may and only may eventually emerge.
Smaller enterprises have thrived on the borderless free trade with the 27. These are the most vulnerable to possible trade barriers and attack from competition who hold advantage.

I honestly see very little immediate bounce into world trade post Brexit. It will be a long hard slog. Rest assured the remaining EU countries will capitalise in full on the UK's vulnerability to competition.
France, Spain Germany, Italy et al will doubtless have their trade missions primed to attract UK based businesses back into the single market economy. Don't underestimate for a moment how these economies will seek to win business from the UK.

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Tue 27 Feb 2018 10:22 pm

topten wrote:The union is already in turmoil over the shortfall in revenue when the UK leaves, talking about increasing in the payment for membership and other Countries taking less out.

Yes the loss of the UK from the EU is a blow. There are NO winners in this divorce ,only losers. The level of loss to parties is yet to be determined. You should take no comfort from any hardship inflicted upon the EU.
Europe is NOT the enemy.

artic monkey · Post by **artic monkey** » Wed 28 Feb 2018 3:37 pm

sophie wrote:Isn't his present stance just a sop to placate the Scots and the Irish. A plague on all their houses! Horrible untrustworthy man.

A plague on all whose houses?.What is your problem with the Scots and Irish,both of which regions voted to stay in In the EU?.If Britain took itself out of the North of Ireland and the country was united as it should be then the land border at least,which doesn`t really exist anyway,would no longer be an issue.
The sooner Mr.Corbyn is voted in at the probably imminent General Election the better,and he can sling Hoey the closet conservative out on her ear with the rest of the tory has beens.

Medjoul1 · Post by **Medjoul1** » Wed 28 Feb 2018 4:08 pm

For the many not the few

kibsolar1999 · Post by **kibsolar1999** » Thu 08 Mar 2018 9:04 am

Corbyn talks...
May talks......
a week later Tusk says: An approach (from and ) for a non-member state based on a "self-construction principle" is completely ruled out.

nearly all leaders in the EU have the opinion that the EU has to stand closer together, as the US, China and others as in ASEAN cooperating, will make it everyday more difficult for the EU.
i find it difficult to see what advantages a 65m population, representing say, 3% of the world trade will have when "outside of everything".
Does the UK wants to become a "tax haven on a black list"?
or start trade wars?

the chance that the UK becomes a pawn in the hands of the powerful is quite big.

topten · Post by **topten** » Thu 08 Mar 2018 8:09 pm

Who gives a rats arse what happens? I am sick to the back teeth watching the news its Brexit this reading your daily paper its Brexit that. I voted to leave the EU money grabbing so & so's but I so wish I hadn't then could sit back and read and watch normal everyday stabbings and murders. GET ON WITH IT PPPPPPPPPPPLLLLLLLLLLLEASE.

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Thu 08 Mar 2018 10:24 pm

topten wrote:Who gives a rats arse what happens? I am sick to the back teeth watching the news its Brexit this reading your daily paper its Brexit that. I voted to leave the EU money grabbing so & so's but I so wish I hadn't then could sit back and read and watch normal everyday stabbings and murders. GET ON WITH IT PPPPPPPPPPPLLLLLLLLLLLEASE.

Most of the working population and younger generation in the UK care about this very important change to peoples lives and prospects.
your clear " who gives a rats arse" attitude makes me quite cross. Better you didn't vote at all !!
One of the clearly misguided I think.

jofra · Post by **jofra** » Thu 08 Mar 2018 10:47 pm

"...Most of the working population and younger generation in the UK care about this very important change to peoples lives and prospects..." - supporting evidence i.e. proof of this allegation?
Apart from this, I suspect (unfounded!) that many people are getting fed-up of the continuing "news-releases" that imply that no concrete decisions are being reached despite protestations to the contrary - instead, neither the pro- OR anti- supporters are going to get what they wanted or fantasized would occur.
As a result, many (on both sides) are now beginning to realise that the only option left is to (using the old phrase) "lie back and think of England" - no matter which way you voted, you will get screwed because you won't get everything you wanted and/or expected....
(And also, just what chance/effect will the ordinary person have on all these "negotiations"? Politicians do as they please; if eventually voted out, they still get a great pension plus extras...)

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Thu 08 Mar 2018 11:03 pm

jofra wrote:"...Most of the working population and younger generation in the UK care about this very important change to peoples lives and prospects..." - supporting evidence i.e. proof of this allegation?
Apart from this, I suspect (unfounded!) that many people are getting fed-up of the continuing "news-releases" that imply that no concrete decisions are being reached despite protestations to the contrary - instead, neither the pro- OR anti- supporters are going to get what they wanted or fantasized would occur.
As a result, many (on both sides) are now beginning to realise that the only option left is to (using the old phrase) "lie back and think of England" - no matter which way you voted, you will get screwed because you won't get everything you wanted and/or expected....
(And also, just what chance/effect will the ordinary person have on all these "negotiations"? Politicians do as they please; if eventually voted out, they still get a great pension plus extras...)

Not an allegation,
The activity amongst the two opposing schools of opinion is definitely from people who are directly effected over coming years. The young and of course working people. The opinionated persons who voted based on the new NHS promise, immigration and the "EU are robbers" syndrome have very quickly been silenced as the true nature of BREXIT unfold. It is most unfortunate that the real issues. Trade, borders, penalties, Ex pat vulnerability, were not aired sufficiently.
The now silent majority that take the view "who cares" are simply exhibiting a clear ignorance or understanding of Brexit.

jofra · Post by **jofra** » Thu 08 Mar 2018 11:52 pm

"Not an allegation....."
Once again, supporting evidence?
"The now silent majority that take the view "who cares" are simply exhibiting a clear ignorance or understanding of Brexit."
...Or have come to a very clear understanding that the vote has been cast and NOW the everyday ordinary person has NO further say in what happens, and is subject to what is forced upon them by the politicians.
Both you AND I can agree or disagree as to whether the decision was/is/will be the right one, but the only "ignorance" is to think either of us - or any other ordinary person - can now do anything, and therefore, as previously implied - accept it, get over it, and forget it - move on to other and better things that just may be possible to affect.

topten · Post by **topten** » Fri 09 Mar 2018 1:33 pm

jofra wrote:"...Most of the working population and younger generation in the UK care about this very important change to peoples lives and prospects..." - supporting evidence i.e. proof of this allegation?
Apart from this, I suspect (unfounded!) that many people are getting fed-up of the continuing "news-releases" that imply that no concrete decisions are being reached despite protestations to the contrary - instead, neither the pro- OR anti- supporters are going to get what they wanted or fantasized would occur.
As a result, many (on both sides) are now beginning to realise that the only option left is to (using the old phrase) "lie back and think of England" - no matter which way you voted, you will get screwed because you won't get everything you wanted and/or expected....
(And also, just what chance/effect will the ordinary person have on all these "negotiations"? Politicians do as they please; if eventually voted out, they still get a great pension plus extras...)

Get a life man take up fishing go for a walk or do something other than giving your opinion on how to change the world. What ever moan you keep coming out with will not alter anything what will be will be as Doris Day sang so you going on about politics is worse than reading someone's opinion that are knowledgeable. And as for the younger generation it won't stop the majority from stealing for their drug habits.

jofra · Post by **jofra** » Fri 09 Mar 2018 2:41 pm

Poor little Topten; having glanced through some of your posts in various threads over the last couple of years, I see that your oft-repeated opinion generally appears to be that people should "get a life", "go for a walk", "do something", while other remarks are usually non-constructive and patronising sniping at others' opinions - or resorting to laughably stupid generalisations...
Perhaps your life is so empty that you also are seeking some way of filling it, such as attempting to become an apprentice troll?

johnerebus · Post by **johnerebus** » Fri 09 Mar 2018 4:05 pm

Feck HMS Brexit and all who sale / sail in her.

This made me larf out loud though... "And as for the younger generation it won't stop the majority from stealing for their drug habits." A somewhat prejudicial and apocryphal statement don'tcha know? What old chap?

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Fri 09 Mar 2018 4:20 pm

The UK cannot prosper with inward attitudes and protectionism. We are simply too small a fish in the global market. The USA on the other hand can and Mr trump will do this because he can.
The UK cannot and it is false hope to think we can . Survive we will but poorer and less prosperous in my view.

We certainly would not prosper if we take corbyn's stance and not be able to sign trade deals if we stay in the single market which would prevent us from doing so...how can this be the right deal for us ?

topten · Post by **topten** » Fri 09 Mar 2018 8:00 pm

jofra wrote:Poor little Topten; having glanced through some of your posts in various threads over the last couple of years, I see that your oft-repeated opinion generally appears to be that people should "get a life", "go for a walk", "do something", while other remarks are usually non-constructive and patronising sniping at others' opinions - or resorting to laughably stupid generalisations...
Perhaps your life is so empty that you also are seeking some way of filling it, such as attempting to become an apprentice troll?

I only comment on stupidity, I voted on the first vote when asked did or did we not want to join the European union I cast my vote against then and I voted to come out now. But if your old enough to cast your mind back to our entry into the Union, prices in the shops rose because of the charge levied by said union. We stood as a proud individual country with our own laws and borders and thriving, probably we back then when all this started should have moaned and tried to stop entry into what as become boil on the backside of the UK. So its not trolling I am doing, but saying because it didn't go the way some people would have liked, they don't want to play any more and they are taking their ball home. Stop moaning and get on with it

jofra · Post by **jofra** » Fri 09 Mar 2018 8:37 pm

Sadly, the stupidity demonstrated here is that you do not even know how I voted (in either instance), but because you evidently disliked some comment of mine, you fantasise (without any foundation) that my views are opposite to yours. As a result, you repeatedly descend to making patronising and insulting comments as in your last sentence.
As your "opinion" is becoming somewhat repetitive (and uninteresting), I can only hope that you find your own "advice" to be the best, and that you at least try to "get on with (and over) it...."
I hope that things do get better for you.

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Fri 09 Mar 2018 8:43 pm

Straight talking from one of the few mp's who actually tell the truth...
https://youtu.be/3xIpjA6dol8

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Fri 09 Mar 2018 10:57 pm

jofra wrote:"Not an allegation....."
Once again, supporting evidence?
"The now silent majority that take the view "who cares" are simply exhibiting a clear ignorance or understanding of Brexit."
...Or have come to a very clear understanding that the vote has been cast and NOW the everyday ordinary person has NO further say in what happens, and is subject to what is forced upon them by the politicians.
Both you AND I can agree or disagree as to whether the decision was/is/will be the right one, but the only "ignorance" is to think either of us - or any other ordinary person - can now do anything, and therefore, as previously implied - accept it, get over it, and forget it - move on to other and better things that just may be possible to affect.

Very dangerous viewpoint.
Democracy is the very protocol that allows every one to have a say. To accept , forget and to resign is a sure recipe for subordinate submission to dictatorship.
There are many people who have lived lives as subordinates. taking orders without challenge or reason. This is not myself and certainly democratic challenge to government and administration is a good and productive freedom that the Uk enjoys in full.

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Fri 09 Mar 2018 11:07 pm

turtle wrote:
The UK cannot prosper with inward attitudes and protectionism. We are simply too small a fish in the global market. The USA on the other hand can and Mr trump will do this because he can.
The UK cannot and it is false hope to think we can . Survive we will but poorer and less prosperous in my view.
We certainly would not prosper if we take corbyn's stance and not be able to sign trade deals if we stay in the single market which would prevent us from doing so...how can this be the right deal for us ?

Simple.
Trade deals within the single market are easier to secure.
Why because customers want to deal with the 27 members as a group rather than negotiate 27 separate deals.
the EU represents at least 250 million consumers this is why trade deals are secured with comparative ease.

The UK must start again. A massive task at massive cost and administration costs. The EU are clearly now competitors and have a massive head start.

The fact we are still in the EU buffers the effect at present. In next 5-10 yrs the real gritty hard challenges will emerge.
Expect no bed of roses. The current 18-30 age group will bear the brunt. The task is massive and the benefits are in my view almost zero.

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Fri 09 Mar 2018 11:28 pm

Trade deals within the single market are easier to secure.....just ask the Canadians how quick it is to do a deal haha...what was it 7 years rapid eh

erol · Post by **erol** » Sat 10 Mar 2018 10:09 am

topten wrote:We stood as a proud individual country with our own laws and borders and thriving, .....

My description of the state of the UK in the years leading up to entry in to the EEC (1973) would not include the word 'thriving'. From late 50's to mid to late 60's - yeah 'thriving' would fit but by the late 60's and early 70's the 'party' was well and truly over I would suggest.

Recently read Dominic Sandbrook's book about the period 1970-1974 in the UK called 'State of Emergency'. Worth a read if you are interested in such accounts of this period I would suggest.

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Sat 10 Mar 2018 2:56 pm

1970-1974 Terrible years for the UK and although now confined to history should stay there.
I haven't read the book Erol but will give it a read but I would guess its content will be pretty much on the lines of the tail wagging the dog rather than the other way around. ?
I would agree that late 60's early 70's were a period of considerable slowdown and largely self inflicted its worth noting that since our inclusion to the EEC/EU the uk has experienced 5 periods of recession whereas the 25yrs prior to joining we only had 2 brief (4 quarters) of downturn.

erol · Post by **erol** » Sat 10 Mar 2018 4:06 pm

turtle wrote:1970-1974 Terrible years for the UK and although now confined to history should stay there.

I do struggle with this idea that once we leave the EU we will be free to return to some kind of golden (economical, global trading,social or political) age. The immediate years prior to the UK's entry (1968-1973) were far from golden as far as I remember them directly and can tell from 'reading up' about the period. Those who are pro the UK leaving the EU would do far better with me talking about the UK moving forward to some new and better future rather than talking of returning to some (basically mythical) 'golden past', that seems to have never existed as far as I can tell. As far as Britain / UK ever had a 'golden age' its was the colonial period and it was golden (for the UK) because of colonialism. I do not think we can return to such, in or our of the EU.

turtle wrote:I haven't read the book Erol but will give it a read but I would guess its content will be pretty much on the lines of the tail wagging the dog rather than the other way around. ?

It is one in a series of which I currently have 4 and have read 2 (more than welcome to borrow them btw).

Never Had It so Good - covering 1956-1963
White Heat - covering 1964 - 1970
State Of Emergency - covering 1970 - 1974
Seasons In The Sun - covering 1974 - 1979

I have read the last two and for me the motivation for reading them was purely nostalgia (in 1970 I was 4.5 years). Having read them there are parts that I think are informative in the context of the whole current Brexit situation / debate but there is much more to them and that period than the UK joining the EEC. Not really sure what you mean about the tail wagging the dog though to be honest ?

turtle wrote: I would agree that late 60's early 70's were a period of considerable slowdown and largely self inflicted its worth noting that since our inclusion to the EEC/EU the uk has experienced 5 periods of recession whereas the 25yrs prior to joining we only had 2 brief (4 quarters) of downturn.

I would agree that the above is worthy of note but I it does seem to me what it suggests is a global trend of an increase in frequency and duration of recessions rather than something that can be easily connected to the UK being in (or out) of the EU ?

erol · Post by **erol** » Sat 10 Mar 2018 4:23 pm

TV program Porridge, 'Disturbing the Peace', 7th Nov 1975 wrote:
FLETCHER wrote: Do you know this country is on the verge of economic ruin ? This once great nation of ours is teetering on the brink of an abyss.

GODBER wrote: By the time you lot get out, there'll be nobody worth robbing.

this was a quoted at start of chapter 15 of 'Seasons in the Sun' book I mentioned above. made me smile and I am pretty sure I remember it from the TV as well, so thought I would post it here as well.

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Sat 10 Mar 2018 5:54 pm

The activity amongst the two opposing schools of opinion is definitely from people who are directly effected over coming years. The young and of course working people. The opinionated persons who voted based on the new NHS promise, immigration and the "EU are robbers" syndrome have very quickly been silenced as the true nature of BREXIT unfold. It is most unfortunate that the real issues. Trade, borders, penalties, Ex pat vulnerability, were not aired sufficiently.
The now silent majority that take the view "who cares" are simply exhibiting a clear ignorance or understanding of Brexit.

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Sat 10 Mar 2018 5:56 pm

Erol
By the tail wagging the dog I mean the workforce and the out of control unions doing untold damage to the economy and calling the shots ?

Being in or out of the EU has everything to do with how the country performs in my opinion, when you drill into the eu countries performance over the last 10/15 years it shows abysmal growth and performance, even Germany the so called “powerhouse” has had luke warm growth of less than 2% and has unemployment running at just below 5% the other so called economies fair much worse Italy has 11% unemployment ,France 9%, Greece 21%, Spain 17%, growth among all these countries has been stagnant for years half of them have a poor record of the amount of people living under the poverty line some commenters on here would have us applaud these disastrous figures ?
Another interesting stat is a basic rule of the EU is that a member country is not allowed to borrow more than 60% of GDP yet a large number of the 27 all flout this rule,…Italy 133%, Spain 99%, Greece 177% the UK 85% and France 97%, even Germany are running at 68% ?
These are some of the reasons why a lot of people voted out and not as stated earlier in this thread that the NHS promise & immigration has silenced the out vote, I think when you study these figures the situation has been sufficiently aired and I would like to know who this silent majority is who is supposed to be ignorant and show no understanding of the Brexit issue,. The blinkered remainers who try to hide this information from people are the ignorant ones and need to be a bit more honest in their assessment of the situation
.

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Sat 10 Mar 2018 6:32 pm

There is certainly a school of thought amongst the older generation, many having finished their working careers, that the UK can return to the "golden" post war years when the UK was able to make good hay.
This same generation are very much out of touch with reality. The true nature of globalisation, distribution of wealth and modern economics are frankly beyond their understanding.
Unfortunately it is this less important generation that have pushed the UK into the fire.

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Sat 10 Mar 2018 6:41 pm

So what about the 20 or 30 somethings that are still working in the working class area's of the north and midlands is it beyond them also
If you want to talk economics waz look into the figures I have posted and tell me that is good economics ?

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Sat 10 Mar 2018 6:59 pm

turtle wrote:So what about the 20 or 30 somethings that are still working in the working class area's of the north and midlands is it beyond them also
If you want to talk economics waz look into the figures I have posted and tell me that is good economics ?

The economic figures that you quote from within the EU are not contested. They illustrate massive borrowings by all member states including the UK. This level of borrowing is a worldwide phenomenon and not only with Europe.
They present no reason why the UK should leave the EU.
Is it your opinion that the UK by leaving the Union will suddenly or even shortly become a new powerhouse of prosperity. I see now figures from your searches that suggest that.
I see many threats and loss of advantage that will put the UK into a weaker and less prosperous place.

Certainly the North East area of the Uk voted to leave. I was very surprised about this given the importance of Nissan motors. The future of this business in the NE will be decided upon the deal or no deal we secure upon tariffs and single market/customs union status.

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Sat 10 Mar 2018 7:49 pm

I have never said that leaving the Eu will bring instant wealth and success neither have I criticized the remain voters for being old and thick and not understanding the prospect of a much better life outside the bankrupt heavily borrowing high unemployment stagnant growth EU area but I am willing to give it a go to free us from the restrictive shackles of a failed entity like the EU

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Sat 10 Mar 2018 8:01 pm

turtle wrote:I have never said that leaving the Eu will bring instant wealth and success neither have I criticized the remain voters for being old and thick and not understanding the prospect of a much better life outside the bankrupt heavily borrowing high unemployment stagnant growth EU area but I am willing to give it a go to free us from the restrictive shackles of a failed entity like the EU

Hmmm
Noble attitude indeed. I must ask if you are an active contributor to the UK economy or are you a time served person now trying to recover "the good old days". Two distinct levels of importance in my view.
No disrespect implied or intended please.
The EU as a failed entity is far from true. Many have taken the line that the EU will not stay the course. I see an invigorated EU lining up to compete with and capitalise upon a new weakness the UK.
Roll over and die the EU will certainly not do and it is foolhardy notion to think the Union would collapse after the divorce.

erol · Post by **erol** » Sat 10 Mar 2018 8:03 pm

turtle wrote:Erol
By the tail wagging the dog I mean the workforce and the out of control unions doing untold damage to the economy and calling the shots ?

I get you now. One of Dominic Sanbrook's suggestions that I found interesting is that the actions of the unions in the period from 70-79 was indicative of weakness rather than strength of the union movement. As people became more affluent and more 'individualistic' in their actions and behaviours the ability of the leaders of the major unions and the TUC to carry their members along with them diminished. With a labour government in power (most of the time) and rampant inflation threatening everybody, many union bosses and TUC leaders were arguing for 'restraint' from their members but unlike in the past they no longer had the influence as union 'leaders' to bring their memberships along with them. Ordinary union workers did not really care about the union 'movement' and ideas like solidarity in the way they did in the past. They cared increasingly only about the pound in their own pockets. If increasing that meant other workers, unionised or not, had to loose out, then so be it. I am not summarising it very well - better to read the books

turtle wrote:Being in or out of the EU has everything to do with how the country performs in my opinion,

The more I look at it the more I am of the impression that economically there is not much difference either way.

turtle wrote:when you drill into the eu countries performance over the last 10/15 years it shows abysmal growth and performance, even Germany the so called “powerhouse” has had luke warm growth of less than 2% and has unemployment running at just below 5% the other so called economies fair much worse Italy has 11% unemployment ,France 9%, Greece 21%, Spain 17%, growth among all these countries has been stagnant for years half of them have a poor record of the amount of people living under the poverty line some commenters on here would have us applaud these disastrous figures ?

I certainly would not have anyone applaud such figures. The question I ask myself is, would the UK have performed better in the last 10/15 years if it had not joined the EEC in 1997 and I am not convinced it would have performed much different to be honest. Similarly looking forward I am increasingly of the impression that being out in mid to long term it's not going to make that much difference economically either. I think how well the UK does or does not do is neither massively hampered by it being in the EU or helped.

Let me, if I may, give an example. In the books I mentioned there was a stat about the UK's decline in exports measured as a % of total world exports. It piqued my interest so I did some further investigating, basically comparing that same stat across a number of countries from 1960 to 1987 (period either side of UK joining EEC in 1973). I came up with the following graph

Looking at this you can see that the UK's exports as a % of total world exports which starts in 1960 at around 9.5% falls year on year, unlike the other semi random countries I choose. It stops falling and 'stabilises' at the very time the UK joined the EEC. Now you might think this is a 'remain' argument but it is not. If I look at that graph and ask myself honestly "what do I think the graph would look like if we had not joined the EEC in 1973", the answer I come up with is "probably much the same".

kerry 6138 · Post by **kerry 6138** » Sat 10 Mar 2018 8:11 pm

waz-24-7 wrote:There is certainly a school of thought amongst the older generation, many having finished their working careers, that the UK can return to the "golden" post war years when the UK was able to make good hay.
This same generation are very much out of touch with reality. The true nature of globalisation, distribution of wealth and modern economics are frankly beyond their understanding.
Unfortunately it is this less important generation that have pushed the UK into the fire.

when I read this initialy I was angry, took a deep breath read it again now I am just laughing, I realised where you get your name from it obviously what a tier 1 24 /7 wazzock would call themself.

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Sat 10 Mar 2018 9:19 pm

erol wrote:
turtle wrote:Erol
By the tail wagging the dog I mean the workforce and the out of control unions doing untold damage to the economy and calling the shots ?
I get you now. One of Dominic Sanbrook's suggestions that I found interesting is that the actions of the unions in the period from 70-79 was indicative of weakness rather than strength of the union movement. As people became more affluent and more 'individualistic' in their actions and behaviours the ability of the leaders of the major unions and the TUC to carry their members along with them diminished. With a labour government in power (most of the time) and rampant inflation threatening everybody, many union bosses and TUC leaders were arguing for 'restraint' from their members but unlike in the past they no longer had the influence as union 'leaders' to bring their memberships along with them. Ordinary union workers did not really care about the union 'movement' and ideas like solidarity in the way they did in the past. They cared increasingly only about the pound in their own pockets. If increasing that meant other workers, unionised or not, had to loose out, then so be it. I am not summarising it very well - better to read the books

turtle wrote:Being in or out of the EU has everything to do with how the country performs in my opinion,
The more I look at it the more I am of the impression that economically there is not much difference either way.
I would take a stab at the improvement after 1973 would have something to do with the end of the oil embargo which also lead to the steel crisis both were a hammer blow to world trade, I also agree with your analysis of the union influence but as you say better to read the books.

turtle wrote:when you drill into the eu countries performance over the last 10/15 years it shows abysmal growth and performance, even Germany the so called “powerhouse” has had luke warm growth of less than 2% and has unemployment running at just below 5% the other so called economies fair much worse Italy has 11% unemployment ,France 9%, Greece 21%, Spain 17%, growth among all these countries has been stagnant for years half of them have a poor record of the amount of people living under the poverty line some commenters on here would have us applaud these disastrous figures ?
I certainly would not have anyone applaud such figures. The question I ask myself is, would the UK have performed better in the last 10/15 years if it had not joined the EEC in 1997 and I am not convinced it would have performed much different to be honest. Similarly looking forward I am increasingly of the impression that being out in mid to long term it's not going to make that much difference economically either. I think how well the UK does or does not do is neither massively hampered by it being in the EU or helped.

Let me, if I may, give an example. In the books I mentioned there was a stat about the UK's decline in exports measured as a % of total world exports. It piqued my interest so I did some further investigating, basically comparing that same stat across a number of countries from 1960 to 1987 (period either side of UK joining EEC in 1973). I came up with the following graph

exports.JPG
Looking at this you can see that the UK's exports as a % of total world exports which starts in 1960 at around 9.5% falls year on year, unlike the other semi random countries I choose. It stops falling and 'stabilises' at the very time the UK joined the EEC. Now you might think this is a 'remain' argument but it is not. If I look at that graph and ask myself honestly "what do I think the graph would look like if we had not joined the EEC in 1973", the answer I come up with is "probably much the same".

waz-24-7 · Post by **waz-24-7** » Sat 10 Mar 2018 9:32 pm

Erol and Turtle,
Historic trends. Google searches and data downloads hardly address the issue.
What will the outcome be after a divorce from the EU?
This is a unique never attempted before scenario. Uncertainty prevails.
Both major UK political parties have diverging formulas for a HARD or SOFT divorce.
Both are simply intent on securing power.
I am and have been very concerned over what will happen in 2019 onwards into the next decade.
Is your research significant? I think not given the unprecedented change in economic yardsticks, prospects and forecasts.

turtle · Post by **turtle** » Sat 10 Mar 2018 9:38 pm

Something gone wrong on this thread a few posts appear to have gone walkies ?

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