Labour for SOFT, Consevative for HARD BREXIT

[EnjoyingTheSun]

Re the EU, ever wondered why our membership was knocked back by France in 1963 and 1967 but come the 70s they couldn't get us in quick enough?

[erol]

If after paying minimal tax you allow your workers who do "arduous" work retire at 55 (50 for women) on a generous state pension that's great but to expect others to increase their retirement age to subsidise your workers is a big ask. BTW hairdressing and musicians qualify as arduous.

Qualified, past tense not qualify present tense. All of these things have been reformed.

So it isn't a surprise the EU is playing hardball, would you want bills like that divided by 3 countries instead of 4?

Attaching conditions to loans is one thing. Forcing a nation that is already bankrupt to take on more loans that you know it will not be able to service in order to transfer the prior liabilities from private banks to the Euro Zone (not EU) public is another thing entirely.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

If after paying minimal tax you allow your workers who do "arduous" work retire at 55 (50 for women) on a generous state pension that's great but to expect others to increase their retirement age to subsidise your workers is a big ask. BTW hairdressing and musicians qualify as arduous.

Qualified, past tense not qualify present tense. All of these things have been reformed.

So it isn't a surprise the EU is playing hardball, would you want bills like that divided by 3 countries instead of 4?

Attaching conditions to loans is one thing. Forcing a nation that is already bankrupt to take on more loans that you know it will not be able to service in order to transfer the prior liabilities from private banks to the Euro Zone (not EU) public is another thing entirely.

Reformed as part of the harsh austerity measures??

[erol]

Reformed as part of the harsh austerity measures??

Yes as part of an austerity package but an austerity package not deigned to put Greece back on its feet but rather one designed to put the private banks back on their feet. That is the point. Despite all the austerity enforced on the Greek people the country remains in essence insolvent. The banks on the other hand ....

[EnjoyingTheSun]

Reformed as part of the harsh austerity measures??

Yes as part of an austerity package but an austerity package not deigned to put Greece back on its feet but rather one designed to put the private banks back on their feet. That is the point. Despite all the austerity enforced on the Greek people the country remains in essence insolvent. The banks on the other hand ....

I do feel for the Greek people but there is nothing that complicated here you can't put a person back on their feet when they haven't got any legs.
They hoped joining the EU would be some magic cure but never changed their habits and the music stopped.
If you declare an income of £100,000 to get a mortgage of £500,000 and default because your income is only £20,000 then more fool the banks for not carrying out any due diligence but it doesn't entitle you to a do-over.
Someone has to repay it or else if you keep writing off bad debts you go skint.
Greece is a classic example of what is wrong with the EU.
In theory it should work but then so should communism.

[erol]

If you declare an income of £100,000 to get a mortgage of £500,000 and default because your income is only £20,000 then more fool the banks for not carrying out any due diligence but it doesn't entitle you to a do-over.

The 'solution' imposed on Greece was to be forced to borrow an even larger sum than the £500,000, that they already could not service, from the Euro Zone citizenry, in order to pay back the banks. There was no need for the banks to exercise due diligence, when they do not have to suffer the consequences of their imprudent but extremely profitable lending. Which is exactly why they made the loans in the first place. When the debt is being serviced they make and keep the profit and when it stops being serviced the losses are transferred to the public and the Greek people forced to suffer worse and for longer than they would have if the debt had just been the original '£500k' as means of mollifying the euro zone public that picked up the tab for the benefit of the banks.

[kerry 6138]

It’s the poster boy for Europe; the former “PIIG” which shrugged off the shackles of austerity and returned to economic growth, slashing its sovereign debt in the process.

And yet if this is so, then why does Ireland continue to carry a shocking level of debt per person, the highest in Europe and the third highest out of 49 countries worldwide?

As KBC Bank chief economist Austin Hughes sees it, it’s a bit of a case of “lies, damned lies and statistics”.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/eco ... -1.3001026

[johnerebus]

Brexit
Let's exit
The debate
Cos everyone knows
Nothing
Only opinion
Like raw onion
Keeps me weeping
And pains me
like a huge bunion.

Tee Hee! JR Esentepe 2018

[turtle]

I really must concede
You don’t have to read
Just pass it by and don’t make a click
There are threads full of subjects
That won’t make you sick
Do not distress it will soon be over
Only 2 years more of Brexit to cover

[johnerebus]

It's not only here
It's everywhere.

Yet you say
"Pass it by"
I try
Honestly I try
It's even lasered
To the moon

Everywhere I look
It can't be shaken
Or shook
2 years can't end
Too soon

Close an ear
Close an eye
Everywhere I turn
Even written
In the sky

Please, please!
Brexit.... Just die

[turtle]

Some folk don’t care about important things in life
Wandering through years ignoring trouble and strife
Brexit like it or not is important to many
It will effect peoples lives even yours Jonnie
So please pay attention even you elite in London
People all over the UK have had enough of the Capital conundrum

There is more to life than unelected Bureaucrats
Who tell us everyday more and more crap
We need to break the shackles of the EU
And forge on ahead with a better life for me and you.

[turtle]

Can we now stop the silliness and return to more serious matters.

[waz-24-7]

Indeed.
Greece has been an issue for them and us. I hope the people of Greece can move forward. Get their house in order and return to some level of prosperity. The young of this country deserve it and deserve more.

Russian Influence within the EU is a matter now of concern.
Given the clear intervention of Russia in the USA recent presidential elections. It was in Mr Putin's interest for Trump to be victorious.
Is it feasible and indeed likely in my opinion that the same cyber influence came to bear in the BREXIT campaign. Mr Farage has clear links and power has always been his goal.
Mr Putin is very Keen to drive a wedge into European solidarity. A stand alone UK is the start of this campaign. Hence his desire to see BREXIT.
The recent attacks in Salisbury is a test of UK resolve and ability to respond.
Fortunately as we are still in the EU. The other member states have stood firm with the UK, removing diplomats from Moscow. Thus sending a clear message to Mr Putin. I think the Russian action is a testing of the European political waters. What will happen post 2019.
The security and solidarity of European states cannot be allowed to deteriorate. Not whilst Mr Putin has some global aspirations.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

Given the clear intervention of Russia in the USA recent presidential elections. It was in Mr Putin's interest for Trump to be victorious.
Is it feasible and indeed likely in my opinion that the same cyber influence came to bear in the BREXIT campaign.

How so?
I would say most of the PR, social media etc was to remain but in spite of that the majority voted to leave

[turtle]

So...it's either the over 50's old Wrinklies or the fact that we didn't give the under 18.s a vote or them pesky ruskies
Which one is it to be Waz ?

[erol]

I would say most of the PR, social media etc was to remain .....

Not on here is wasn't

[waz-24-7]

Given the clear intervention of Russia in the USA recent presidential elections. It was in Mr Putin's interest for Trump to be victorious.
Is it feasible and indeed likely in my opinion that the same cyber influence came to bear in the BREXIT campaign.

How so?
I would say most of the PR, social media etc was to remain but in spite of that the majority voted to leave

Correct on the mainstream PR and social media.
However,
It is most certainly the case that Russia under Mr Putin are able, willing and indeed do use cyber infiltrations to influence political positions in other countries in order to strengthen their own position and secure long term advantage .
Mr Putin is very keen to drive a wedge into the heart of European solidarity. A divided Europe is a weakened Europe.
As I have said. I think there is distinct possibility that Russia have or has influenced UK politics to meet his aspirations.
I shall not repeat my previous post but I do think there is a case.

[waz-24-7]

So...it's either the over 50's old Wrinklies or the fact that we didn't give the under 18.s a vote or them pesky ruskies
Which one is it to be Waz ?

Beg your pardon.
I don't think I or anyone else is restricted to put forward the possibilities and reasoning behind Brexit.
Indeed the three reasons you mention above are in my view factual reasoning behind the outcome.

[PoshinDevon]

If you throw enough of the brown stuff at the fan, some will stick.

From what I am reading it was Russian over 50s who had under 18 year old children who could not vote which caused the remain vote to be lost. This is correct isn’t it?

[turtle]

I caught up with Thursday nights Question time this afternoon and the audience was made up of all under 30 year olds and a young man made a big statement that none of his close friends had voted to remain which brought a huge applause from the young audience, his statement was against another claim that most young people wanted to remain.....obviously the reaction from that audience was that is not the case.

[waz-24-7]

I caught up with Thursday nights Question time this afternoon and the audience was made up of all under 30 year olds and a young man made a big statement that none of his close friends had voted to remain which brought a huge applause from the young audience, his statement was against another claim that most young people wanted to remain.....obviously the reaction from that audience was that is not the case.

Hmmm
Whilst it is not usually my game to trawl google to substantiate a point of view. However in this instance here is a few to counter your "applause" case.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... d-campaign
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 06226.html
http://www.lse.ac.uk/News/Latest-news-f ... ntolerance
Just a few..... many many more if you would like to do the search.

Furthermore,
Here in the UK I have seen the evidence that the young ( the majority) are worried and fearful of the isolation from Europe and the loss of their European passports.
Now clearly some older folk have children that did not use their vote. Perhaps they were complacent or had no real understanding until now when the more important facts of the matter are being aired and debated. Just like on this forum. Participants here are clearly older and BREXIT supporter who probably still believe they have done the UK youngsters a service.

[turtle]

waz, I note your highlighted polls but we all know how wrong the polls have been in recent years ?
This however was on a TV broadcast and a bit more believable than a "paid for" propaganda tool...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b ... 8-22032018 .... skip to about 21mins 44 secs

[waz-24-7]

waz, I note your highlighted polls but we all know how wrong the polls have been in recent years ?
This however was on a TV broadcast and a bit more believable than a "paid for" propaganda tool...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b ... 8-22032018 .... skip to about 21mins 44 secs

Turtle,
Question time is a very good TV programme. One I often watch. Like this forum, it is a debate with audience of I guess 100 persons.
Whilst you may indeed believe the audience and the said "applause" satisfies you.
I would not take an audience in a TV debate as acceptable reflection of say 20 million youngsters effected by BREXIT.

I am perfectly satisfied and support the notion that most younger voters and those excluded (from voting) from their future feel sold down the river.
Now I am certain that you and most on this particular forum will not accept this opinion. So be it. No worries.

[waz-24-7]

If you throw enough of the brown stuff at the fan, some will stick.

From what I am reading it was Russian over 50s who had under 18 year old children who could not vote which caused the remain vote to be lost. This is correct isn’t it?

Somehow I suspect that this particular poster would not be invited onto question time.

A clear understanding of the subject, debating skill, and something of substance to say are pre requirements for an invite.
All lacking from the above I think.

[PoshinDevon]

Waz..... I don’t debate with the likes of you. You fail to answer questions, go off on a tangent, answer questions with questions and troll for a reaction - hence I gave up a long while ago.

I now read this thread and your posts for my amusement. As I have posted before your opinion is just that, your opinion and matters not.

[turtle]

I agree PID...it does make you wonder why anyone bothers trying to debate with a closed mind....i think you got your desire jonnerebus I give up.

[waz-24-7]

Ok
Last 2 posts. Self gratifying I think.
If you want to debate then please do
If not . Just don't post.
Its easy.
Stop wasting your efforts. Your posts are devoid of anything of interest.

[Hedge-fund]

Waz..... I don’t debate with the likes of you. You fail to answer questions, go off on a tangent, answer questions with questions and troll for a reaction - hence I gave up a long while ago.

I now read this thread and your posts for my amusement. As I have posted before your opinion is just that, your opinion and matters not.

I stopped feeding this obvious troll months back when I realised there are other issues involved.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

I caught up with Thursday nights Question time this afternoon and the audience was made up of all under 30 year olds and a young man made a big statement that none of his close friends had voted to remain which brought a huge applause from the young audience, his statement was against another claim that most young people wanted to remain.....obviously the reaction from that audience was that is not the case.

Hmmm
Whilst it is not usually my game to trawl google to substantiate a point of view. However in this instance here is a few to counter your "applause" case.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... d-campaign
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 06226.html
http://www.lse.ac.uk/News/Latest-news-f ... ntolerance
Just a few..... many many more if you would like to do the search.

Furthermore,
Here in the UK I have seen the evidence that the young ( the majority) are worried and fearful of the isolation from Europe and the loss of their European passports.
Now clearly some older folk have children that did not use their vote. Perhaps they were complacent or had no real understanding until now when the more important facts of the matter are being aired and debated. Just like on this forum. Participants here are clearly older and BREXIT supporter who probably still believe they have done the UK youngsters a service.

Could you get anymore left wing news sources? That's not research that is just reinforcing your established views.

Why don't you look at the programme like I just did and see the "applause" was as reported. The fact that it was on Question Time is a huge suprise because, despite their protests, the BBC usually rigs the audience left of centre.

Did you ever think that maybe us old uns can tell spin and lies and omissions from fact?
Like when the scaremongering Nigel Farage lied about the EU plans to create an army. "A dangerous fantasy" was how Nick Clegg described it. Although it was open knowledge before the vote and shelved until after the vote, barely three months on from the Referendum Juncker proposed an EU Army.
There were countless examples of lies omissions and spin in the 75(?) referendum and they usually came from the remain side.
Us wrinklies have lived in the real world and are more weathered experienced and cynical as a rule. We find it hard to believe it when some smooth politician in a suit tell us crime is down 95% when we can see it hasn't by experience.
The youngsters usually eat up what their bearded lecturer feeds them with a spoon. He gets his opinions from the Guardian and has hid from real life by essentially never leaving school.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

waz, I note your highlighted polls but we all know how wrong the polls have been in recent years ?
This however was on a TV broadcast and a bit more believable than a "paid for" propaganda tool...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b ... 8-22032018 .... skip to about 21mins 44 secs

Turtle,
Question time is a very good TV programme. One I often watch. Like this forum, it is a debate with audience of I guess 100 persons.
Whilst you may indeed believe the audience and the said "applause" satisfies you.
I would not take an audience in a TV debate as acceptable reflection of say 20 million youngsters effected by BREXIT.

I am perfectly satisfied and support the notion that most younger voters and those excluded (from voting) from their future feel sold down the river.
Now I am certain that you and most on this particular forum will not accept this opinion. So be it. No worries.

So did you watch the programme quoted or are you going to avoid it now? Watch it and you can see the said "applause."
So it is a very good programme but not an acceptable reflection when the researcher hasn't correctly rigged the audience or doesn't reinforce your opinion?
Most younger voters don't know anything other than the EU or indeed the EU before the Maastricht treaty. Generally their opinions reflect their left wing teacher. When they grow up they move away from the left because they have life experience unlike their teachers and can see what they have been told is rubbish.

[waz-24-7]

I watched the indicated clip that Turtle recommended. I agreed the applause.
My point is that this small audience cannot be said to be reflective of the UK youth. Hence my referral to some articles in the media.
Certainly the youth only know being in Europe. They also have no experience of a divided and war mongering Europe that destroyed much of Europe and caused horrific suffering and loss of life.
The UK youth have experienced unprecedented peace and prosperity in their time. They deserve to hold their destiny within their own hands. Hence my opinion that 16 yr olds should have been given a chance to vote.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

I watched the indicated clip that Turtle recommended. I agreed the applause.
My point is that this small audience cannot be said to be reflective of the UK youth. Hence my referral to some articles in the media.
Certainly the youth only know being in Europe. They also have no experience of a divided and war mongering Europe that destroyed much of Europe and caused horrific suffering and loss of life.
The UK youth have experienced unprecedented peace and prosperity in their time. They deserve to hold their destiny within their own hands. Hence my opinion that 16 yr olds should have been given a chance to vote.

So quoting said "applause" is agreeing there was applause? It wasn't that clear.

Your 'some articles in the media' were pretty selective. The Guardian, The Independent and the LSE would be as valid as someone quoting UKIP as an unbiased source.

As for the unprecedented prosperity, prior to joining 43% of our exports went to the Commonwealth as opposed to 16.7 to members of the Common market.
New Zealand and Australia, who we had to virtually abandon our trade links with to join the EU, have seen their GDP grow over double the rate of Germany since 2000. So who is to know whether going in the EU made us more prosperous?

As for the often quoted view that the EU has stopped there being any wars. If that were true, and there is no way of knowing for sure, then the 1951 Treaty of Paris which formed the European Coal and Steel Community and made "war not only unthinkable but materially impossible" took care of that. Had the EU stopped at being just a trade organisation then I would imagine that we would have voted to remain.

If you believe Brexit is going to ruin the country it is going to effect more than the 16 year olds so why stop there? Why not have 2 year olds vote?
I'm sure the remainers could convince a gullible 7 year old that leaving the EU will cut off their sweets.
Most of the young Momentum members beliefs pretty much mirror their bearded sociology lecturer at university. Inevitably they will grow out of them by the time they are 25. Should our destiny be in the hands of a teenager going through a rebellious streak?

[erol]

This thread is turning in to a cliche competition from what I can see.

You can be a remain voting right wing reactionary old tory fart even when you were a teenager. One example - William Hague (https://youtu.be/qL_p9qjfu5U)

You can be a leave voting left wing socialist old labour fart even when you are 86 years old. One example - Dennis Skinner.

Hackneyed, banal and trite are words that spring to my mind when reading some of the more recent comments on this thread.

[turtle]

I feel a termination coming on ?.

[johnerebus]

Hi Turtle, You say, "Some folk don’t care about important things in life." As you probably know every human being is wired differently. We each have our own preferred importances. Yours may or may not be mine. Therefore would you like to post what you consider your personal 10 most "important things in life" and I'll respond?