Free Speech is dead....no right to your own view

General Forum

Moderators: PoshinDevon, Soner, Dragon

turtle
Kibkommer
Kibkommer
Posts: 865
Joined: Sun 25 Nov 2012 10:44 am

Re: Free Speech is dead....no right to your own view

  • Quote
  •   Message 51 of 88 in Discussion

Post by turtle »

Sorry poted twice can you delete one ?

User avatar
Soner
Kibkom
Kibkom
Posts: 4877
Joined: Tue 03 Apr 2012 10:51 am

Re: Free Speech is dead....no right to your own view

  • Quote
  •   Message 52 of 88 in Discussion

Post by Soner »

Snap, sorry turtle, myself and a moderator deleted one of your posts at the same time. This has never happened before, apologies as we can not retrieve your post.
PiD, I assume that your will answer turtle.
Support businesses that are supporting the Kibkom Forum - At least contact them for a quote.
This forum cannot exist without the support of both member and advertiser.
Don't forget to mention Kibkom!

User avatar
erol
Verified Member
Verified Member
Posts: 3306
Joined: Tue 01 May 2012 7:14 pm

Re: Free Speech is dead....no right to your own view

  • Quote
  •   Message 53 of 88 in Discussion

Post by erol »

I have some of turtles accidentally removed post as I was in the process of replying (and quoting) part of it when the originals got removed. Ill post my reply , that contains part of Turtles removed post as a quote.
turtle wrote:This thread is about freedom of speech and has nothing whatsoever to do with Brexit so why do you allow a rougue comment taking the thread off topic...this is getting a regular feature from people who do not like certain threads and aim to get them shut down.
Yet the thread has not been closed down ? The word Brexit, up till your post had been mentioned twice, once by me and once by another poster. I would maintain that my use of the word was absolutely within the context of the discussion on free speech.

So what would you like moderators to have done, on this specific thread, exactly turtle ? What would you have done if you were a moderator ? Remove my post because it contains the word Brexit ? Is this what you think should have happened ? Or some other action ? I genuinely am at a loss in understanding what you are trying to say here ?

If you do think that a moderator should have judged my post that contained the word Brexit, but that I think was not about Brexit at all but about the topic of free speech, on the basis that it was 'off topic' and designed to get the thread 'closed down' because I do not like the topic of free speech, then what if a moderator were to consider your post to be 'off topic' and not about free speech but about the failure of the mods here on this forum ? Would you like them to take action on this as well ?

turtle
Kibkommer
Kibkommer
Posts: 865
Joined: Sun 25 Nov 2012 10:44 am

Re: Free Speech is dead....no right to your own view

  • Quote
  •   Message 54 of 88 in Discussion

Post by turtle »

Erol
Stop being an arse man...you know exactly what i was reffering to and the reasons why cos you were the mod who i had a conversation with about people who try to get threads shut down.so lets not pretend you don't know what is going on here.
Anyway do as you please...you usually do
I said i wish to keep away from you on here so why get involved ?

User avatar
erol
Verified Member
Verified Member
Posts: 3306
Joined: Tue 01 May 2012 7:14 pm

Re: Free Speech is dead....no right to your own view

  • Quote
  •   Message 55 of 88 in Discussion

Post by erol »

Yes you sent me such a list and I did not understand what it is you wanted mods to have done in those examples any more than I understand what it is you think should have been done in this one. If you can not explain what it is you want mods to do differently, then I personally think it is a bit unfair to keep publicly criticising them ?

You clearly seem to think the mods should have behaved differently. Is it really then so outrageous of me to ask you exactly how you would have wanted them to behave in this specific example ?

User avatar
PoshinDevon
Kibkom Mod
Kibkom Mod
Posts: 2307
Joined: Wed 04 Apr 2012 6:32 pm

Re: Free Speech is dead....no right to your own view

  • Quote
  •   Message 56 of 88 in Discussion

Post by PoshinDevon »

Soner wrote:Snap, sorry turtle, myself and a moderator deleted one of your posts at the same time. This has never happened before, apologies as we can not retrieve your post.
PiD, I assume that your will answer turtle.
Indeed I did delete a post.......as requested. Looks like Erol has replied with the original post quoted.

At least it shows that the mods are on line and do respond to requests.

With regards to turtles post about an earlier post going off topic, something about Brexit? To be perfectly honest I never noticed and no one else has mentioned or reported it.

We try our best but as we are not online 24/7 and don’t have time to read every single posting we do rely on reports from members to help us. In this instance It seems to me this is nothing to get excited about. We strive for perfection but that is never likely to happen.

Enjoy your evening.
Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass,it's about learning to dance in the rain

Peterborough Utd -The Posh

turtle
Kibkommer
Kibkommer
Posts: 865
Joined: Sun 25 Nov 2012 10:44 am

Re: Free Speech is dead....no right to your own view

  • Quote
  •   Message 57 of 88 in Discussion

Post by turtle »

Perhaps administer the rules you are very protective on and stop hiding behind an alias as a mod would be a start.
It is obvious that you are going to be ad awkward as ever when challenged so really Erol do what you normally do and play the predantic card and play dumb...

User avatar
erol
Verified Member
Verified Member
Posts: 3306
Joined: Tue 01 May 2012 7:14 pm

Re: Free Speech is dead....no right to your own view

  • Quote
  •   Message 58 of 88 in Discussion

Post by erol »

turtle wrote:Perhaps administer the rules you are very protective on and stop hiding behind an alias as a mod would be a start.
It is obvious that you are going to be ad awkward as ever when challenged so really Erol do what you normally do and play the predantic card and play dumb...
Can you not just clearly say, in your opinion, what action should have been taken in this specific thread ? If not why not ? It is not a trick question. It is not an obtuse question. Yet it does appear to be one that, so far, you seem unwilling to answer, as far as I can see ? What rule was, in your opinion, not administered here on this thread ? What action should have been taken.

As to my being a mod here and choosing to do so under a different user name, that was and is my choice. That you have repeatedly 'outed' me as a mod by implication, threatened to 'out me' in PM's and now have explicitly 'outed me' is your choice. I really am indifferent to such 'outing', then and now. When I became a mod I was asked if I wanted to do so under my normal posting name or under a separate one. I chose separate.

turtle
Kibkommer
Kibkommer
Posts: 865
Joined: Sun 25 Nov 2012 10:44 am

Re: Free Speech is dead....no right to your own view

  • Quote
  •   Message 59 of 88 in Discussion

Post by turtle »

johnerebus wrote:Having been around the block many times and knocked on the Door of Death but refused entry many times I have a Tee shirt printed with the warning front and back, "I don't want to hear your opinion"

But here's my opinion.


Brexit!
Let's exit
The debate
Cos everyone knows
Nothing
Only opinion
Like raw onion
Keeps me weeping
And pains me
like a huge bunion

JR Esentepe2018
You take pains to question me constantly on various subjects and quite often seek my advice why you are a mod on here by asking me what you should do with a certain problem...well can i question you ...what has the above post to do with this thread other than free speech?...i could say my grandmother is 146 years old in the next post and has nothing to do with the thread subject...would you question that or is it a 'thing" you clearly have with me ...if it is then it needs sorting and Pdq

User avatar
erol
Verified Member
Verified Member
Posts: 3306
Joined: Tue 01 May 2012 7:14 pm

Re: Free Speech is dead....no right to your own view

  • Quote
  •   Message 60 of 88 in Discussion

Post by erol »

I think it has little to do with the topic but then I also happen to think that moderation wise leaving it is probably the better option than removing it. Unlike you I do not see it as an active attempt to get the thread closed down because the poster does not like the thread topic. I see it as a little light hearted banter verse that whilst off topic is not particularly damaging in any way. I might be wrong, but the evidence of the topic not having been closed down and discussion continuing past it, is relevant to me having this view. Removing it as a mod on the basis it is 'off topic' would require judgement calls' and invite a whole range of other potential problems in my opinion , of the kind that no doubt you would be the first to question and doubt and call unfair. I do not think removing it was warranted. I do not think closing the thread down is warranted by this post either. So what else could have been done ? I could have, using my 'mod identity', posted asking the poster to please try and stay on topic, either publicly or privately. For all I, or you for that matter, knows some other mod may have done this privately. In any case in my view and experience such intervention rarely ends well either.

turtle
Kibkommer
Kibkommer
Posts: 865
Joined: Sun 25 Nov 2012 10:44 am

Re: Free Speech is dead....no right to your own view

  • Quote
  •   Message 61 of 88 in Discussion

Post by turtle »

Yeah whatever...

I am in NC enjoying a well earned break at the moment and as said earlier i dont wish to engage in your twaddle and really do wish to avoid your presence on here so really Erol lets call it a night eh.
I think i do undetstand how the moderation works on here now and for me it stinks from its head down

User avatar
PoshinDevon
Kibkom Mod
Kibkom Mod
Posts: 2307
Joined: Wed 04 Apr 2012 6:32 pm

Re: Free Speech is dead....no right to your own views

  • Quote
  •   Message 62 of 88 in Discussion

Post by PoshinDevon »

turtle wrote:
johnerebus wrote:Having been around the block many times and knocked on the Door of Death but refused entry many times I have a Tee shirt printed with the warning front and back, "I don't want to hear your opinion"

But here's my opinion.


Brexit!
Let's exit
The debate
Cos everyone knows
Nothing
Only opinion
Like raw onion
Keeps me weeping
And pains me
like a huge bunion

JR Esentepe2018
You take pains to question me constantly on various subjects and quite often seek my advice why you are a mod on here by asking me what you should do with a certain problem...well can i question you ...what has the above post to do with this thread other than free speech?...i could say my grandmother is 146 years old in the next post and has nothing to do with the thread subject...would you question that or is it a 'thing" you clearly have with me ...if it is then it needs sorting and Pdq

As I mentioned in an earlier post, enforcing and interpreting the rules isn’t always easy or straightforward. I never took the post by johnerebus to be anything more than an example of an opinion.....the posters opinion. I took it as an example of how someone has an opinion and they are making sure it is heard but we don’t have to agree with it. In the context of the topic title about free speech, I thought it was fine. It never even entered my thoughts that the post was in some way an attempt to take the thread off topic or get it closed down. As no one else has reported it I can only presume it passed them by as well.

You are of course entitled to your opinion about moderation on the forum and whilst it will never be perfect, the forum has grown in numbers year on year and is the number one forum for all things North Cyprus. So it cannot be all that bad.
Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass,it's about learning to dance in the rain

Peterborough Utd -The Posh

jofra
Kibkommer
Kibkommer
Posts: 1467
Joined: Mon 14 Jul 2014 10:19 pm

Re: Free Speech is dead....no right to your own view

  • Quote
  •   Message 63 of 88 in Discussion

Post by jofra »

Perhaps it is the late hour, but as I read the various contributions on this thread, I become more confused - from Turtle's posts, I'm not sure whether Erol AND johnrebus are both moderators (or not!), or whether they are one and the same person, while from Erol's posts that he is one of the moderators (under another name?) - but the list of moderators is shown as "Bond.JamesBond, Inquit, Soner, Dragon, PoshinDevon"....
Sadly, I feel even more disappointed than confused if a moderator considers it necessary to use an alternative "identity"....
If I am mistaken, and these "multiple personalities" do not exist and are misinterpretation on my part, my apologies....

User avatar
erol
Verified Member
Verified Member
Posts: 3306
Joined: Tue 01 May 2012 7:14 pm

Re: Free Speech is dead....no right to your own view

  • Quote
  •   Message 64 of 88 in Discussion

Post by erol »

jofra wrote:Perhaps it is the late hour, but as I read the various contributions on this thread, I become more confused - from Turtle's posts, I'm not sure whether Erol AND johnrebus are both moderators (or not!), or whether they are one and the same person, while from Erol's posts that he is one of the moderators (under another name?) - but the list of moderators is shown as "Bond.JamesBond, Inquit, Soner, Dragon, PoshinDevon"....
Sadly, I feel even more disappointed than confused if a moderator considers it necessary to use an alternative "identity"....
If I am mistaken, and these "multiple personalities" do not exist and are misinterpretation on my part, my apologies....
I post here as myself, under my real name as Erol. I also some (considerable) time later became a moderator here and when that happened I was asked do I want to moderate under my existing user name or would I prefer a separate one for moderating. I did not request the option to moderate under a separate ID, this was as I understand it, the same choice offered to all moderators. I chose to moderate under a user name separate from my existing user name (inquit). I have no idea if the other mods like Dragon and Bond.James.Bond also post as normal users using different IDs as well as moderate under these mod ID's. I have not asked because for me it simply does not matter. I judge how well a moderator mods by their actions as a mod, not based on what views they may have expressed as a standard user. I can understand why some may think that having a different user name for moderating and one for posting is 'deceitful' but it is not a view I share. It was never particularly secret as far as I was concerned but neither was it particularly relevant to me. As it is not relevant to me what a mods gender might be or their sexual orientation or if they live in Cyprus or anything else. When asked directly if I moderate on the forum I have always been candid in my response. I have never used my moderator ID to close down, censure or punish a user because of interaction I have has with them under my normal user ID. Anyway this really is off topic now. I will when I get time start a different thread on the topic of moderation generally.

Mr Chinnery
Kibkommer
Kibkommer
Posts: 340
Joined: Sun 14 Jan 2018 3:57 pm

Re: Free Speech is dead....no right to your own view

  • Quote
  •   Message 65 of 88 in Discussion

Post by Mr Chinnery »

Why don’t we all agree that Free Speech does not exist on here, or anywhere else if debate, or what someone says is shut down. Unless it is against the law. ( That’s another debate as to the daft Laws these days ) anyway,
If a person makes a comment that is upsetting to a person and that person complains by wanting the comment/debate
removed and shut down,( of which they are entitled to do with Free Speech) , if then that comment/debate IS removed/shut down then both parties are against Free Speech.
If Free Speech exist, the upsetting comment/debate so long as no law has been broken should be allowed to run and the upset person(s) should debate the comments. If not take no further part and leave the debate.

User avatar
erol
Verified Member
Verified Member
Posts: 3306
Joined: Tue 01 May 2012 7:14 pm

Re: Free Speech is dead....no right to your own view

  • Quote
  •   Message 66 of 88 in Discussion

Post by erol »

Mr Chinnery wrote:Why don’t we all agree that Free Speech does not exist on here, or anywhere else if debate, or what someone says is shut down. Unless it is against the law. ( That’s another debate as to the daft Laws these days ) anyway,
My view is that it is important that free speech exists and is protected in society in general. It is not my view that unless it exists here, in this place, in a black and white absolute form, that means it does not exist in society in general. Striving to protect free speech in society in general is in my view a valid and worthwhile activity. Striving to have this specific forum run in a way that does not censure anyone for saying anything unless it is illegal (and who determines if it is illegal ?) is to my mind not a worthwhile activity. Doing so is in my opinion not necessary for free speech to exist and be protected in society in general and in some ways just distracts from the defence of the concept of free speech in society in general by confusing that which truly is important with that which is not.
Mr Chinnery wrote:If Free Speech exist, the upsetting comment/debate so long as no law has been broken should be allowed to run and the upset person(s) should debate the comments. If not take no further part and leave the debate.
That is one way to run a forum such as this but it is not the only way. There are forum's that run in such a manner. However it is not how the person that created this forum chooses to run it. I would resist the idea that all forums have to be run like this one just as I resist the idea that they all have to run with absolute black and white 'free speech' given to all posters whatever they say and however they say it. You could relatively easily set up a forum that ran the way you think such should be run. I would if asked happily help you set up such a forum, as I have helped many others in the past should you wish to do this. However to insist that this forum is run that way and only that way on the basis that not doing so is an assault on 'free speech' is for me not reasonable or necessary in order for free speech to exist and be protected in society in general.

User avatar
PoshinDevon
Kibkom Mod
Kibkom Mod
Posts: 2307
Joined: Wed 04 Apr 2012 6:32 pm

Re: Free Speech is dead....no right to your own view

  • Quote
  •   Message 67 of 88 in Discussion

Post by PoshinDevon »

Mr Chinnery wrote:Why don’t we all agree that Free Speech does not exist on here, or anywhere else if debate, or what someone says is shut down. Unless it is against the law. ( That’s another debate as to the daft Laws these days ) anyway,
If a person makes a comment that is upsetting to a person and that person complains by wanting the comment/debate
removed and shut down,( of which they are entitled to do with Free Speech) , if then that comment/debate IS removed/shut down then both parties are against Free Speech.
If Free Speech exist, the upsetting comment/debate so long as no law has been broken should be allowed to run and the upset person(s) should debate the comments. If not take no further part and leave the debate.
A fair point, which does go back to the understanding and interpretation of what free speech is. This was discussed earlier in this topic.

Moderators try to read threads and do receive occasional reports from members with complaints about content or breaking of forum rules. Rules which are in place to try to ensure the forum runs smoothly.

Members who are looking to debate or receive comments on a topic they have posted should expect that others will have differing views and will challenge what they have written. Indeed some will pick apart an argument line by line. It should not be seen as a personal attack providing the comments made do not contravene forum rules. If you are not willing to debate or are particularly sensitive then best not to post.

Amongst the many thousands of topics posted over the years since this forum has been in operation only a small proportion have been deleted and an even smaller amount locked. Some have had to be removed to protect the forum itself following contact by lawyers, others have been rightly removed in order to protect a member or sometimes all members.

I don’t believe moderators deliberately delete or lock a debating thread just because they don’t agree with the arguments put forward, nor do we immediately take down a thread just because a member reports it. There are many comments on the forum which praise the way it operates and how posters feel safe when posting. Of course it’s not perfect and there are a few who have complained rightly or wrongly that they are being attacked and there are others who complain because a topic has been deleted, locked or edited. At the end of the day if members do not like the forum they are free to leave and has been suggested set up their own forum, with all the expense, hassle and concerns that it may bring.

Think it really comes down to what is free speech, which has been discussed and strangely enough I am none the wiser!

Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass,it's about learning to dance in the rain

Peterborough Utd -The Posh

User avatar
Groucho
Kibkommer
Kibkommer
Posts: 3240
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2012 2:43 pm

Re: Free Speech is dead....no right to your own view

  • Quote
  •   Message 68 of 88 in Discussion

Post by Groucho »

I agree.... this is not a forum dedicated to absolute freedom of speech... its prime aim is to build an online sense of community... you are never going to achieve that aim if you allow everyone completely free rein no matter how extreme, libelous, racist, deliberately disruptive their agenda is.... are you?

So I think we should appreciate the positives that this forum fosters and accept the limitations with good grace understanding that such limitations (if that is how you feel they are) are necessary to maintain some level of legality and decorum...

If you don't agree... meet me in Lemar car park at 7:30 and I'll punch your lights out!

Mr Chinnery
Kibkommer
Kibkommer
Posts: 340
Joined: Sun 14 Jan 2018 3:57 pm

Re: Free Speech is dead....no right to your own view

  • Quote
  •   Message 69 of 88 in Discussion

Post by Mr Chinnery »

The point I am trying to make is people say they believe in Free Speech and then say ‘but’ . A person either believes in it or they don’t.
A bit like a Restaurant offering ‘Free Food’ then when you get there there is a payment which goes to the chef for cooking it.

User avatar
Groucho
Kibkommer
Kibkommer
Posts: 3240
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2012 2:43 pm

Re: Free Speech is dead....no right to your own view

  • Quote
  •   Message 70 of 88 in Discussion

Post by Groucho »

Mr Chinnery wrote:The point I am trying to make is people say they believe in Free Speech and then say ‘but’ . A person either believes in it or they don’t.
A bit like a Restaurant offering ‘Free Food’ then when you get there there is a payment which goes to the chef for cooking it.
We do believe in free speech.... however it's got to be tempered with an understanding of the context within which it is being exercised...

No classroom could function as learning environment if the children were allowed to constantly utter profanities at the teacher drowning out any meaningful transfer of knowledge...

No boardroom could function as a directing influence for a business if the board members spent all the allotted time libeling each other vice discussing the agenda items...

No website dedicated to engendering a themed on-line community can survive the prosecution of a deliberate undermining of that goal...

If people want a website where they can air their views without any standards being enforced - this ain't it...

Set up your own... why not?

User avatar
Groucho
Kibkommer
Kibkommer
Posts: 3240
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2012 2:43 pm

Re: Free Speech is dead....no right to your own view

  • Quote
  •   Message 71 of 88 in Discussion

Post by Groucho »

Why not join the One Direction fan club forum and spend all your time running down the group under the aegis of free speech? See how far that gets you.....

User avatar
erol
Verified Member
Verified Member
Posts: 3306
Joined: Tue 01 May 2012 7:14 pm

Re: Free Speech is dead....no right to your own view

  • Quote
  •   Message 72 of 88 in Discussion

Post by erol »

Mr Chinnery wrote:The point I am trying to make is people say they believe in Free Speech and then say ‘but’ . A person either believes in it or they don’t.
I am sorry Mr Chinnery but with all due respect I just fundamentally disagree with you on this.

I absolutely believe that society should not seek to limit, curtail or prevent individuals from expressing their own opinions and views, no matter how abhorrent to me personally, everywhere. For me this is not the same thing as saying no one should ever have the expression of their views limited at all, anywhere. I just do not agree or accept that any limits on their ability to express their views in a specific given place means that they therefore have lost the right or ability to express them at all. For me they are just not the same thing and imo conflating these two different things actually does more harm to the objective of recognising and defending the one that IS important and vital than it protects it.

I do not say this because I want or expect you or anyone else to agree with me. I do however want to explain what I personally believe as clearly as I can and why I believe it and this is what I am attempting to do.

Mr Chinnery
Kibkommer
Kibkommer
Posts: 340
Joined: Sun 14 Jan 2018 3:57 pm

Re: Free Speech is dead....no right to your own view

  • Quote
  •   Message 73 of 88 in Discussion

Post by Mr Chinnery »

Groucho,
You have obviously not taught in an inner city school recently.

You must think I am trying to run this forum down, I am not I am joining in the debate. what I am saying is my belief
in what Free Speech is , if you don’t agree with that that’s fine by me.
If you want to make silly remarks about a children’s boy band that’s fine by me also.
Your sentence ‘If People want a website to air their views without any standards being enforced - this ain’t it’ This proves my point, Some believe in Free Speech and some don’t. I think the opposite because who’s standards do we apply?
Just because I think like that doesn’t mean it’s wrong or there is an ulterior motive.
Again you say ‘ This is not a forum dedicated to absolute freedom of speech’ - why not if you believe in Free Speech.
I think it should be and that’s my opinion. It doesn’t mean i have anything against the forum.
Anyway we will just have to agree to disagree.

User avatar
Groucho
Kibkommer
Kibkommer
Posts: 3240
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2012 2:43 pm

Re: Free Speech is dead....no right to your own view

  • Quote
  •   Message 74 of 88 in Discussion

Post by Groucho »

Mr Chinnery wrote:Again you say ‘ This is not a forum dedicated to absolute freedom of speech’ - why not if you believe in Free Speech.
I think it should be and that’s my opinion. It doesn’t mean i have anything against the forum.
Anyway we will just have to agree to disagree.
The reason why not is this... it would render the forum inoperable. TRNC websites must remain within certain parameters that do not allow for total freedom to post anything and everything...

it's not us members or Soner being precious or coy... it's just a fact.

Live with it... otherwise we will simply think you are being deliberately obtuse...

Mr Chinnery
Kibkommer
Kibkommer
Posts: 340
Joined: Sun 14 Jan 2018 3:57 pm

Re: Free Speech is dead....no right to your own view

  • Quote
  •   Message 75 of 88 in Discussion

Post by Mr Chinnery »

Groucho,
It is my opinion, it’s my thoughts, what makes you think I am trying to change anything, I am not. It’s a debate about free speech, as I’ve said I believe people should be allowed to say what they want ,if that’s not allowed on the forum fine,
it doesn’t mean I have to agree with it.
I understand you are very protective of the forum good for you, but just because you disagree with me doesn’t mean
I should go elsewhere or that I am being obtuse, (although I respect your right to call me obtuse because I would not want to stop you saying what you want.)

EnjoyingTheSun
Kibkommer
Kibkommer
Posts: 3490
Joined: Fri 16 Mar 2018 4:46 pm

Re: Free Speech is dead....no right to your own view

  • Quote
  •   Message 76 of 88 in Discussion

Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

I think it is important to give an awful lot of latitude to free speech, no matter how extreme or distasteful the view.

Harking back to my example of Nick Griffin appearance on Question Time. His views are repugnant to any right thinking person. So do you close him down by banning him or do you allow him to speak and shine a light on his views and then dismantle them? I know what I think is the most effective.

It is important to bring extreme views out into the open otherwise they fester like a fungus and funguses have a nasty habit of growing.
Would as many people be radicalised if rather than their hate preacher indoctrinating them behind closed doors had to defend his ideas in public?

Nothing on this forum strikes me as racist, extreme or even cruel.
That said I do have the skin of a rhino.

Erol and I disagree on most things but even if I don't agree with many of his views I respect them and totally can understand where he is coming from. I just look at it in a different way.

User avatar
erol
Verified Member
Verified Member
Posts: 3306
Joined: Tue 01 May 2012 7:14 pm

Re: Free Speech is dead....no right to your own view

  • Quote
  •   Message 77 of 88 in Discussion

Post by erol »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:I think it is important to give an awful lot of latitude to free speech, no matter how extreme or distasteful the view.
I agree. Personally I am not a fan of laws that proscribe for example 'holocaust denial'. I have concerns over laws like 'incitement to racial hatred' and the risk that such can be abused to not stop incitement but to restrict free speech. These are the kind of issue I think matter when debating the right to free speech. Arguing that if on a given specific forum if people can not say anything they like with no censure what so ever this is an assault on and danger to free speech is not an argument I personally think holds much water.

Anyway on the topic of free speech but changing direction a bit I came across Britain First's policies website page (https://www.britainfirst.org/policies) which contains
Implement an American style “Bill of Rights” guaranteeing freedom of speech, assembly and expression. No exceptions;
followed by
Introduce a total ban on the word “racism” in the media.
Seems a bit contradictory to me ?

turtle
Kibkommer
Kibkommer
Posts: 865
Joined: Sun 25 Nov 2012 10:44 am

Re: Free Speech is dead....no right to your own view

  • Quote
  •   Message 78 of 88 in Discussion

Post by turtle »

I think the word racism is a much overused word certainly in modern Britain and thowrn around like confetti these days...I was called a racist a few weeks ago by a traveller who took offence with me in our showroom because I wouldn't let him have a chainsaw for fifty quid less than the ticket price.
It's because I'm a traveller init he protested...nothing to do with it I said he then protested about the vat and the cheeky scroat said you know us travellers don't pay vat..so i threw him out.....I am expecting a nightime visit anytime soon ?

User avatar
Groucho
Kibkommer
Kibkommer
Posts: 3240
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2012 2:43 pm

Re: Free Speech is dead....no right to your own view

  • Quote
  •   Message 79 of 88 in Discussion

Post by Groucho »

turtle wrote:I think the word racism is a much overused word certainly in modern Britain and thowrn around like confetti these days...I was called a racist a few weeks ago by a traveller who took offence with me in our showroom because I wouldn't let him have a chainsaw for fifty quid less than the ticket price.
It's because I'm a traveller init he protested...nothing to do with it I said he then protested about the vat and the cheeky scroat said you know us travellers don't pay vat..so i threw him out.....I am expecting a nightime visit anytime soon ?
Yeah but let's face it... you've got the chainsaw!

User avatar
Groucho
Kibkommer
Kibkommer
Posts: 3240
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2012 2:43 pm

Re: Free Speech is dead....no right to your own view

  • Quote
  •   Message 80 of 88 in Discussion

Post by Groucho »

Erol the problem with holocaust denial is that it is an attempt to whitewash history and is seen as a racist issue by Jews and Gypsies some of whom still survive to this day.

If you tolerate this then what next? Here in Cyprus do we allow the whitewashed view of EOKA B as freedom fighters?

EnjoyingTheSun
Kibkommer
Kibkommer
Posts: 3490
Joined: Fri 16 Mar 2018 4:46 pm

Re: Free Speech is dead....no right to your own view

  • Quote
  •   Message 81 of 88 in Discussion

Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

Groucho wrote:Erol the problem with holocaust denial is that it is an attempt to whitewash history and is seen as a racist issue by Jews and Gypsies some of whom still survive to this day.

If you tolerate this then what next? Here in Cyprus do we allow the whitewashed view of EOKA B as freedom fighters?
I think holocaust denial is about the most evil conspiracy theories going and is getting borderline because the underlying rationale isn't just a kooky theory.
That said it is ludicrous and very easily debunked so publicise it and let the people be rightly ridiculed.

Generally it is someone with zero scientific knowledge trying to scientifically prove that the gas chambers couldn't kill that many people etc etc.
Same argument as the plane that apparently didn't hit the Pentagon.
There was censuses taken pre war that had x amount of jews and after the war there were 6 million less.
Where is the plane that didn't hit the Pentagon? Where are the missing 6 million jews?

johnerebus
Kibkommer
Kibkommer
Posts: 452
Joined: Wed 02 May 2012 11:50 am

Re: Free Speech is dead....no right to your own view

  • Quote
  •   Message 82 of 88 in Discussion

Post by johnerebus »

Well I really dunno what to say. Yes I do and here's my opinions (there are 3)
1. Thanks for the publicity for my little ditty, "Brexit".

2. It got the debate about free speech ramped up a bit didn't it?

3. I haven't seen such articulate passion on a topic since Father Bear accused his family of eating his porridge.

Ragged Robin
Kibkommer
Kibkommer
Posts: 2038
Joined: Mon 26 May 2014 5:15 pm

Re: Free Speech is dead....no right to your own view

  • Quote
  •   Message 83 of 88 in Discussion

Post by Ragged Robin »

Everyone is very concerned about the "right " to free speech but only one poster has touched on the fact that everyone has a duty to avoid causing unnecessary harm to others. Despite the mantra I that used to be taught to bullied children at school ("sticks and stones may break my bones but hard words cannot hurt me") harm can be caused verbally , including on a forum such as this - and it is a matter of sincerity and vulnerability NOT sensitivity.

The document that started all this off was a draft of an advisory paper for the judiciary. The law making "incitement to violence" a criminal act was already passed and I am sure we all approve that people should not be encouraged to terrorism! The judges need advice because it is a new law necessitated by new circumstances (ie the wider and quicker spread of "intelligence" by way of the internet. So the "poor darlings" dont have precedents to go by. Judges , like moderators on a forum, have a special responsility to protect the vulnerable. Perhaps some such advisory document could be prepared for moderators,

To me, the important factor is what constitues "incitement to violence" - and in the context of this forum , what constitutes insult and what slander.

Consider the following:



I do not agree with the views of the man in the moon

The Man in the Moon is a stupid yellow homosexual cripple.

The views of the Man in the Moon are rubbish

Therefore the man in the moon is rubbish

The man in the moon is silly and sensitive because he objects to what I called him

Moon men are stupid yellow homosexual cripples and should be shot.

All loyal Martians should combine to get rid of moonmen - exterminate, exterminate, exterminate.

Acknowledgement to John Mortimer and Rumpole and early Dr. Who


I will now go back into hibernation

Hedge-fund
Kibkommer
Kibkommer
Posts: 1081
Joined: Thu 21 Aug 2014 1:27 pm

Re: Free Speech is dead....no right to your own view

  • Quote
  •   Message 84 of 88 in Discussion

Post by Hedge-fund »

Hedge-fund wrote:
Ragged Robin wrote:Everyone is very concerned about the "right " to free speech but only one poster has touched on the fact that everyone has a duty to avoid causing unnecessary harm to others. Despite the mantra I that used to be taught to bullied children at school ("sticks and stones may break my bones but hard words cannot hurt me") harm can be caused verbally , including on a forum such as this - and it is a matter of sincerity and vulnerability NOT sensitivity.

The document that started all this off was a draft of an advisory paper for the judiciary. The law making "incitement to violence" a criminal act was already passed and I am sure we all approve that people should not be encouraged to terrorism! The judges need advice because it is a new law necessitated by new circumstances (ie the wider and quicker spread of "intelligence" by way of the internet. So the "poor darlings" dont have precedents to go by. Judges , like moderators on a forum, have a special responsility to protect the vulnerable. Perhaps some such advisory document could be prepared for moderators,

To me, the important factor is what constitues "incitement to violence" - and in the context of this forum , what constitutes insult and what slander.

Consider the following:



I do not agree with the views of the man in the moon

The Man in the Moon is a stupid yellow homosexual cripple.

The views of the Man in the Moon are rubbish

Therefore the man in the moon is rubbish

The man in the moon is silly and sensitive because he objects to what I called him

Moon men are stupid yellow homosexual cripples and should be shot.

All loyal Martians should combine to get rid of moonmen - exterminate, exterminate, exterminate.

Acknowledgement to John Mortimer and Rumpole and early Dr. Who


I will now go back into hibernation


I literally started reading and digesting that and then it suddenly went mad talking about gay moon crippled yellow men.

User avatar
Groucho
Kibkommer
Kibkommer
Posts: 3240
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2012 2:43 pm

Re: Free Speech is dead....no right to your own view

  • Quote
  •   Message 85 of 88 in Discussion

Post by Groucho »

Of course the biggest change to freedom of expression in our lifetimes is the advent of the internet and this has served both to disseminate genuine information that would otherwise have been more difficult to broadcast to a wide audience and to disseminate misinformation that would otherwise have been more difficult to broadcast to a wide audience.... it is a much abused ability aided by anonymity and this has led to the emergence of the Troll, the 21st Century poison pen letter writer... Herein lies a dichotomy ... How, given website owner's liabilities and responsibilities do you or can you really have freedom of speech without the website owner being thrown to the wolves?

It can also aid whistle-blowers which could be seen as a good thing...

Ragged Robin
Kibkommer
Kibkommer
Posts: 2038
Joined: Mon 26 May 2014 5:15 pm

Re: Free Speech is dead....no right to your own view

  • Quote
  •   Message 86 of 88 in Discussion

Post by Ragged Robin »

Hedge fund : I thought it would be fairly obvious to the intelligent unprejudiced readers of this forum that I used the examples of moonmen and Martians to avoid inadvertently causing offence to any member of the forum. I assumed no one is actually a luna inhabitant or a martial that all have at least a vestigial sense of humour.

I give up, back to the real world!

Groucho Good post, I agree! It is not that human nature has changed , it just has more opportunity to present its more unpleasant side!

Hedge-fund
Kibkommer
Kibkommer
Posts: 1081
Joined: Thu 21 Aug 2014 1:27 pm

Re: Free Speech is dead....no right to your own view

  • Quote
  •   Message 87 of 88 in Discussion

Post by Hedge-fund »

Ragged Robin wrote:Hedge fund : I thought it would be fairly obvious to the intelligent unprejudiced readers of this forum that I used the examples of moonmen and Martians to avoid inadvertently causing offence to any member of the forum. I assumed no one is actually a luna inhabitant or a martial that all have at least a vestigial sense of humour.

I give up, back to the real world!

Groucho Good post, I agree! It is not that human nature has changed , it just has more opportunity to present its more unpleasant side!
Sorry RR - my fault, I thought I'd finally flipped!

Reminds me of the great film From Dusk till Dawn when half way through you think someone has put the wrong reel on for the 2nd half.

Ragged Robin
Kibkommer
Kibkommer
Posts: 2038
Joined: Mon 26 May 2014 5:15 pm

Re: Free Speech is dead....no right to your own view

  • Quote
  •   Message 88 of 88 in Discussion

Post by Ragged Robin »

OK pax Hedge Fund, sorry I confused you! People do sometimes take things the wrong way, and I thought that was one way to avoid upsetting anyone without meaning it. Back to the Drawing Board

Post Reply

Return to “THE KIBKOM NORTH CYPRUS FORUM”