Can anyone explain the £400 NHS charge to me?

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Keithcaley
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Can anyone explain the £400 NHS charge to me?

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Post by Keithcaley »

Can anyone explain the £400 NHS charge to me?

I mean the £400 that foreign workers were supposed to pay in order to be able to access NHS services.

I was under the impression that access to the NHS was 'Residency Based' - that is, it didn't matter whether or not you had paid into the system for 50 years, whether or not you still paid UK income tax etc., if you didn't live there, you were not entitled to access NHS services, and if you did live there, you were.

Have I got that wrong?

Assuming that the above is correct, what I don't understand is why a person living and working in the UK, and presumably paying all of their dues in the form of Income Tax and National Insurance, should be required to pay another £400 for the benefit of using the NHS!

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Post by Groucho »

It was a sop to the xenophobes who didn't like the idea of anyone getting free NHS.... Even if they worked in that sector. Shameful. Glad it's been scrapped.

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Re: Can anyone explain the £400 NHS charge to me?

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Re: Can anyone explain the £400 NHS charge to me?

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Post by Dalartokat »

This is an interview withPriti Patel on Nick Ferrari show on LBC Radio in the week and she talks about immigration issues and what is going to happen when the U.K. leaves Europe.

If you don’t want to listen at beginning it’s about 5 minutes into interview.

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/ ... tion-bill/

Not sure if it’s working but it’s on YouTube or Facebook
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Re: Can anyone explain the £400 NHS charge to me?

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Post by waz-24-7 »

One of the discouragements after the BREXIT vote put forward to penalise possible undesirable persons wanting to settle in the UK. Clearly it has hit hard those "undesirables" that have put their live on the line to save, possibly, the very people that want them out.

Some, including me ,classify the measure as a threat or at least a discouragement to inward migration.

Government under pressure from Mr Starmer have done a U turn. A good move and supports the notion that the UK needs immigrants to support our manufacturing, NHS and key industries.

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Re: Can anyone explain the £400 NHS charge to me?

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Post by Dalartokat »

waz-24-7 wrote:
Sat 23 May 2020 4:28 pm
One of the discouragements after the BREXIT vote put forward to penalise possible undesirable persons wanting to settle in the UK. Clearly it has hit hard those "undesirables" that have put their live on the line to save, possibly, the very people that want them out.

Some, including me ,classify the measure as a threat or at least a discouragement to inward migration.

Government under pressure from Mr Starmer have done a U turn. A good move and supports the notion that the UK needs immigrants to support our manufacturing, NHS and key industries.

The NHS surcharge was brought out in 2015 as part of the Immigration Bill and Visa rules.....nothing to do with Brexit.
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Re: Can anyone explain the £400 NHS charge to me?

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Post by Waylandbike »

The NHS Surcharge a wonderful flawed piece of nastiness brought in for all NON EU arrivals who enter UK to work or reside under various Visa categories. IE my non Eu wife is expected to pay it for 3 years in advance when we process her visa to live with me in UK !!!
Then again at the 3 year point of applying for her next visa will be expected to pay another 2 years up front
This on top of the extortionate visa application fees for applying for your wife to reside with you.
Oh she will be able to work and pay tax Nat Ins etc but that means nowt pay up -
Mean while the next boat load of freeloading scroungers land and get it all for free ps ITS NOTHING TO DO WITH brexit

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Re: Can anyone explain the £400 NHS charge to me?

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Post by Keithcaley »

OK, I already knew that it had been scrapped for NHS workers, and I knew that WAZ thought that it was intended to be 'threatening and discouraging', so none of the above gives me a rational explanation to my query: -

Given that we are told that entitlement to use the NHS is 'Residency based',

"what I don't understand is why a person living and working in the UK, and presumably paying all of their dues in the form of Income Tax and National Insurance, should be required to pay another £400 for the benefit of using the NHS!"

Anyone?

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Re: Can anyone explain the £400 NHS charge to me?

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Post by erol »

Because someone(s) has estimated that the net number of votes to be gained from implementing such a surcharge is greater than the net from not doing so. I know this will not satisfy you and that you are looking for some logic beyond a cynical calculations of what might sell best to electorates that would explain such a charge. I am just not sure such exists. Maybe it does but like you if it does then I am not seeing it currently.

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Re: Can anyone explain the £400 NHS charge to me?

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Post by Waylandbike »

i think it was a reaction to anti immigrant feelings to appease the restless populace who were bothered about non entitled visitors accessing the NHS.
Trouble was the Political geniuses got it all wrong by failing to understand LEGAL Migration and ILLEGAL - hence the punitive sums required to be paid by potential legal residents settling in UK.
Meanwhile Illegal entrants are availing themselves for free !!!!!

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Re: Can anyone explain the £400 NHS charge to me?

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Post by Keithcaley »

You're right erol, it doesn't satisfy me!

It just seems to defy logic...

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Re: Can anyone explain the £400 NHS charge to me?

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Post by Brinsley »

Simple answer: Boris wants the dosh from non-natives!

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Re: Can anyone explain the £400 NHS charge to me?

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Post by Keithcaley »

Thank you Brinsley, straight for the jugular as usual ;)

I just can't see how they could do that with a straight face - tell us lot that NHS entitlement is 'Residency based', and then charge someone living and working there, and paying National Insurance, that they have to pay an extra £400 for it!

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Re: Can anyone explain the £400 NHS charge to me?

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Post by Brinsley »

I wonder if Boris and Viktor (PM for Hungry) have any blood-lines? DNA them both, the public demand answers!!!!

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Re: Can anyone explain the £400 NHS charge to me?

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Post by Dalartokat »

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Re: Can anyone explain the £400 NHS charge to me?

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Post by Keithcaley »

Thanks Dalartokat, I've read through it, but it still doesn't (to me) explain why anyone should have to 'pay twice' to use a service whose availability is touted as being 'Residency based'...

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Re: Can anyone explain the £400 NHS charge to me?

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Post by waz-24-7 »

Dalartokat wrote:
Sat 23 May 2020 4:39 pm
waz-24-7 wrote:
Sat 23 May 2020 4:28 pm
One of the discouragements after the BREXIT vote put forward to penalise possible undesirable persons wanting to settle in the UK. Clearly it has hit hard those "undesirables" that have put their live on the line to save, possibly, the very people that want them out.

Some, including me ,classify the measure as a threat or at least a discouragement to inward migration.

Government under pressure from Mr Starmer have done a U turn. A good move and supports the notion that the UK needs immigrants to support our manufacturing, NHS and key industries.

The NHS surcharge was brought out in 2015 as part of the Immigration Bill and Visa rules.....nothing to do with Brexit.
The Brexit debate or request for a referendum started in 2012 or possibly before and the antagonistic amongst the government sought to discourage immigration. The amount of money collected is punitive in real terms. The measure as part of the immigration bill was simply to discourage immigration.
It was Enoch Powell many years previous that started an anti immigration campaign. There is a definite link in the events and actions that led to BREXIT which was in essence , largely an anti immigration vote.

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Re: Can anyone explain the £400 NHS charge to me?

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Post by jofra »

Extremely simple - because a(ny) government can and will disregard as they choose what has been said by that or any other government - just as "rights" are merely concessions granted at one time, and removed (by whim) at another, either blatantly or by obfuscation (consider OAP TV licence...)
Money rules....

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Re: Can anyone explain the £400 NHS charge to me?

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Post by Keithcaley »

None of this sounds 'in any way reasonable' to me...

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Post by Dalartokat »

Last try I think...download the link and look at No. 7

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/re ... /cbp-7274/

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Re: Can anyone explain the £400 NHS charge to me?

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Post by PoshinDevon »

Dalartokat wrote:
Sat 23 May 2020 4:39 pm
waz-24-7 wrote:
Sat 23 May 2020 4:28 pm
One of the discouragements after the BREXIT vote put forward to penalise possible undesirable persons wanting to settle in the UK. Clearly it has hit hard those "undesirables" that have put their live on the line to save, possibly, the very people that want them out.

Some, including me ,classify the measure as a threat or at least a discouragement to inward migration.

Government under pressure from Mr Starmer have done a U turn. A good move and supports the notion that the UK needs immigrants to support our manufacturing, NHS and key industries.

The NHS surcharge was brought out in 2015 as part of the Immigration Bill and Visa rules.....nothing to do with Brexit.
Exactly 100% correct. The surcharge has nothing to do with Brexit. Nor has anyone been threatened or told they are not wanted.
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Re: Can anyone explain the £400 NHS charge to me?

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Post by waz-24-7 »

PoshinDevon wrote:
Sat 23 May 2020 10:56 pm
Dalartokat wrote:
Sat 23 May 2020 4:39 pm
waz-24-7 wrote:
Sat 23 May 2020 4:28 pm
One of the discouragements after the BREXIT vote put forward to penalise possible undesirable persons wanting to settle in the UK. Clearly it has hit hard those "undesirables" that have put their live on the line to save, possibly, the very people that want them out.

Some, including me ,classify the measure as a threat or at least a discouragement to inward migration.

Government under pressure from Mr Starmer have done a U turn. A good move and supports the notion that the UK needs immigrants to support our manufacturing, NHS and key industries.

The NHS surcharge was brought out in 2015 as part of the Immigration Bill and Visa rules.....nothing to do with Brexit.
Exactly 100% correct. The surcharge has nothing to do with Brexit. Nor has anyone been threatened or told they are not wanted.
Posh
Is that an opinion or you have evidence of same? debate is the essence of democracy

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Re: Can anyone explain the £400 NHS charge to me?

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Post by waz-24-7 »

The following is taken from para 7 referenced above

"But some stakeholders have raised concerns that the additional burden of paying the IHS may act as a deterrent to migrant workers that the UK needs, such as nurses"

The case remains that immigration is indeed a matter that has been deterred by parliamentary bill. BREXIT is a follow on from such deterrent. Both matters are unequivocally connected and if you think otherwise then I fear you are grossly mistaken.

What is very clear and 100% correct is that these same immigrants of which many are heroes who have died and or risk the ultimate sacrifice whilst supporting and caring for the very people that may have seen fit to eject them

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Post by Groucho »

2.1 Why was it introduced?
A Home Office news release issued in March 2015 summarised the policy intention as
to “ensure that migrants make a proper financial contribution to the cost of their NHS
care”.
Before the IHS existed, temporary non-EEA migrants had access to free NHS care soon
after arrival in the UK. The Coalition Government considered that this was overly
generous, and inconsistent with other conditions attached to their visas (notably no
eligibility for welfare benefits or social housing).

The charge was not Brexit related, the leaving of the EU is EU related, the IHS is literally non-EU related, even if some of the sentiment is related.

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Post by Groucho »

Keithcaley wrote:
Sat 23 May 2020 7:59 pm
Thanks Dalartokat, I've read through it, but it still doesn't (to me) explain why anyone should have to 'pay twice' to use a service whose availability is touted as being 'Residency based'...
"People applying to stay in the UK permanently (i.e. for ‘Indefinite Leave to Remain’,
sometimes referred to as ‘settlement’) do not have to pay the charge."

So if these workers applied for settlement they would not have been liable anyway...

Either way I am glad it's scrapped...

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Post by Keithcaley »

Thank you Groucho, so it was "the policy intention to ensure that migrants make a proper financial contribution to the cost of their NHS care”.

I can understand that sentiment, it seems to be fair and just, but what I can't grasp is why they have to pay twice, that seems to me to be anything but fair and just - and not only for NHS workers.

My other half has just looked at me scornfully and said "Don't you get it? It's obvious! It's because they're FOREIGNERS!"

I have to say, I'm yet to see a more plausible explanation :(

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Post by Groucho »

Keithcaley wrote:
Sun 24 May 2020 6:14 am
Thank you Groucho, so it was "the policy intention to ensure that migrants make a proper financial contribution to the cost of their NHS care”.

I can understand that sentiment, it seems to be fair and just, but what I can't grasp is why they have to pay twice, that seems to me to be anything but fair and just - and not only for NHS workers.

My other half has just looked at me scornfully and said "Don't you get it? It's obvious! It's because they're FOREIGNERS!"

I have to say, I'm yet to see a more plausible explanation :(
Analogy.... you arrive from outside the EU/EEA and start work as a mechanic so the boss says "I'm deducting the cost of servicing your car from your weekly wage... why? because not now but one day possibly your car will need service and repair" In reality he does it because he can, not because it's fair.

It's based on the politics of envy... the fact that up to arriving in the UK the subject has not had the benefit of UK funded education and all the other things we take for granted counts for nothing ...

Your other half is right.

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Re: Can anyone explain the £400 NHS charge to me?

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Post by Dalartokat »

This is Fact check on the subject...... https://fullfact.org/election-2019/nhs- ... ributions/
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Post by erol »

Keithcaley wrote:
Sat 23 May 2020 9:03 pm
None of this sounds 'in any way reasonable' to me...
Would you like another example of a system in place in the UK that is not reasonable ? ;)

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Post by Keithcaley »

erol wrote:
Sun 24 May 2020 1:25 pm
Keithcaley wrote:
Sat 23 May 2020 9:03 pm
None of this sounds 'in any way reasonable' to me...
Would you like another example of a system in place in the UK that is not reasonable ? ;)

Not on this thread, thank you all the same!

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Post by Keithcaley »

Dalartokat wrote:
Sun 24 May 2020 1:17 pm
This is Fact check on the subject...... https://fullfact.org/election-2019/nhs- ... ributions/

Thanks D ;)

That sort of confirms what I thought - they are already paying towards it!

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

erol wrote:
Sun 24 May 2020 1:25 pm

Would you like another example of a system in place in the UK that is not reasonable ? ;)
Just log onto The Guardian it’s cover to cover of where the UK and USA are going wrong.
Don’t forget to donate a pound as the guys there don’t seem to be able to turn a profit despite their expertise. 😀

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Post by Keithcaley »

...And another thing...

Does this sound fair to you: - Commonwealth Army veteran forced to crowdfund vital surgery?

Is this how you would want the UK Government to treat these people? ANY people?

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Post by Groucho »

Keithcaley wrote:
Thu 28 May 2020 7:04 am
...And another thing...

Does this sound fair to you: - Commonwealth Army veteran forced to crowdfund vital surgery?

Is this how you would want the UK Government to treat these people? ANY people?
No it's not - it's like the Gurkhas all over again.... if you give 'em a rifle to fight on your behalf you have to step up.

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

I’d like to think with these kind of rule changes that they are bought in to stop abuse and the people who morally deserve these benefits will get them even if it is a special exemption nod.

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Post by erol »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Thu 28 May 2020 8:59 am
I’d like to think with these kind of rule changes that they are bought in to stop abuse and the people who morally deserve these benefits will get them even if it is a special exemption nod.
Yeah I would like to think that too but when I see the furore around immigration issues generally, the design of policies like 'hostile environment' and outcomes like the windrush scandal, as much as I would like to believe it I find myself unable to do so.

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

erol wrote:
Thu 28 May 2020 10:40 am
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Thu 28 May 2020 8:59 am
I’d like to think with these kind of rule changes that they are bought in to stop abuse and the people who morally deserve these benefits will get them even if it is a special exemption nod.
Yeah I would like to think that too but when I see the furore around immigration issues generally, the design of policies like 'hostile environment' and outcomes like the windrush scandal, as much as I would like to believe it I find myself unable to do so.
The hostile enviroment is encouraging people who shouldn't be in the country to leave?
I know the deport first and listen to the appeal later might strike some as unfair but makes perfect sense to me.
People are trying to bypass the normal application process by arriving and then remaining without permission.

Personally I and most people buy a ticket when I go to a cinema to see a film but can see it might appeal to slip into the cinema and watch the film for free and hope not to get caught or turfed out.

The Windrush scandal was a cock up from start to finish and passed through a few governments or rather the bureaucrats for years. Whilst it was attempted to make out that the present Government was trying to deport pretty much anyone who arrived from The Caribbean it was more a case that people that had been in the country for years and had never applied for a passport and suchlike and not got their name in the system and wasn't on the radar so to speak.
More a case of being someone in the cinema who had bought but mislaid their ticket and been caught up with the people who had deliberately not bought a ticket.

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Post by erol »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Thu 28 May 2020 11:18 am
The hostile enviroment is encouraging people who shouldn't be in the country to leave?
I would like to believe that. I would like to believe it has not played any part in hurting and damaging people who do have every right to be in the country. I just do not place what I would like to believe ahead of actual evidence.

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

erol wrote:
Thu 28 May 2020 11:26 am
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Thu 28 May 2020 11:18 am
The hostile enviroment is encouraging people who shouldn't be in the country to leave?
I would like to believe that. I would like to believe it has not played any part in hurting and damaging people who do have every right to be in the country. I just do not place what I would like to believe ahead of actual evidence.
Between 1948 and 1970 half a million people emigrated from the West Indies to the UK. How many have been erroneously deported, 100?
Its a disgrace and its 100 too many but 0.02% doesn't strike me as a racist campaign tbh.
Plus the cock up has gone though a hell of a lot of hands over a hell of a lot of years and both Labour and the Tories so the forgive them father for they know not what they do act is a bit trite.

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Post by erol »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Thu 28 May 2020 12:03 pm
erol wrote:
Thu 28 May 2020 11:26 am
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Thu 28 May 2020 11:18 am
The hostile enviroment is encouraging people who shouldn't be in the country to leave?
I would like to believe that. I would like to believe it has not played any part in hurting and damaging people who do have every right to be in the country. I just do not place what I would like to believe ahead of actual evidence.
Between 1948 and 1970 half a million people emigrated from the West Indies to the UK. How many have been erroneously deported, 100?
Its a disgrace and its 100 too many but 0.02% doesn't strike me as a racist campaign tbh.
Plus the cock up has gone though a hell of a lot of hands over a hell of a lot of years and both Labour and the Tories so the forgive them father for they know not what they do act is a bit trite.
There I was thinking I was giving my reasons for why , no mater how much I might like to believe that on issue of immigration government , any government , would mitigate legislation seeking to punish those deserving of punishment but that also punishes those not deserving of such by giving such people 'a special exemption nod'.

Seems like I missed where the goal posts actually were. Maybe a quick drive to Nicosia and back is in order to check my eyesight ? Seems like the goalposts are actually just 'Tories good, everything else bad'. What a surprise.

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Re: Can anyone explain the £400 NHS charge to me?

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

erol wrote:
Thu 28 May 2020 12:27 pm
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Thu 28 May 2020 12:03 pm
erol wrote:
Thu 28 May 2020 11:26 am


I would like to believe that. I would like to believe it has not played any part in hurting and damaging people who do have every right to be in the country. I just do not place what I would like to believe ahead of actual evidence.
Between 1948 and 1970 half a million people emigrated from the West Indies to the UK. How many have been erroneously deported, 100?
Its a disgrace and its 100 too many but 0.02% doesn't strike me as a racist campaign tbh.
Plus the cock up has gone though a hell of a lot of hands over a hell of a lot of years and both Labour and the Tories so the forgive them father for they know not what they do act is a bit trite.
There I was thinking I was giving my reasons for why , no mater how much I might like to believe that on issue of immigration government , any government , would mitigate legislation seeking to punish those deserving of punishment but that also punishes those not deserving of such by giving such people 'a special exemption nod'.

Seems like I missed where the goal posts actually were. Maybe a quick drive to Nicosia and back is in order to check my eyesight ? Seems like the goalposts are actually just 'Tories good, everything else bad'. What a surprise.

As I said it went through a lot of hands this so maybe Tories, Labour and the Lib Dems bad?
I'm still not seeing 100 out of 500,000 as a huge plot to repatriate West Indians tbh or if it is it is a very inefficient one

https://www.politicshome.com/news/artic ... be-ignored

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erol
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Re: Can anyone explain the £400 NHS charge to me?

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Post by erol »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Thu 28 May 2020 2:55 pm
I'm still not seeing 100 out of 500,000 as a huge plot to repatriate West Indians tbh or if it is it is a very inefficient one
Did I suggest it was or did I suggest that it is not an encouraging history if one is hoping that government will give 'a special exemption nod' to those who should not be sanctioned but under legislation are covered for such sanction anyway to ensure no bad person is missed. As ever you argue against what I have not said whilst swerving the point I did make.

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Re: Can anyone explain the £400 NHS charge to me?

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Post by Keithcaley »

Excuse me, would you mind going to play somewhere else please?

The thread started to go astray around post 36, and if you want to discuss Windrush et al, this ain't the place ;)

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Re: Can anyone explain the £400 NHS charge to me?

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

Keithcaley wrote:
Thu 28 May 2020 3:57 pm
Excuse me, would you mind going to play somewhere else please?

The thread started to go astray around post 36, and if you want to discuss Windrush et al, this ain't the place ;)
I never bought up Windrush I just said a fairly innocuous “I’d like to think with these kind of rule changes that they are bought in to stop abuse and the people who morally deserve these benefits will get them even if it is a special exemption nod.”
Pretty on topic I thought but.....

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Re: Can anyone explain the £400 NHS charge to me?

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Post by Keithcaley »

Yeah, Yeah, Bye! :)

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