New minimum wage has been agreed

[alphamike]

Minimum Wage Determination Commission meeting has been completed. Minister of Labor and Social Security Hasan Taçoy announced that the new minimum wage was determined as 11 thousand 800 net and 13 thousand 563 gross.

Partial copy and paste, full article https://www.yeniduzen.com/asgari-ucret- ... 59817h.htm

[benjaminbutton]

Have forgotten what it is now. Same will happen as in UK. Pay workers more, goods and services will go up, and people can't afford to buy. Although millions will expect bigger handouts from Government.

[waddo]

That is good - temporary - news in some ways as the people are hard done by at the moment, but not good in other ways as the real cost of living has been passed onto the people instead of the government taking it in hand - no complaints, just saying.

Some ExPats will find it hard to find £1,809.00 in income every month if they rent! Even £604 a month if they own property may tax a lot of single people!

Now the prices will rise again to meet the available funds that folks have - it is always the same in every country.

[benjaminbutton]

Believe me Waddo it's a lot more than SOME. I think you will find MANY pensioners are going to be making appointments with Estate Agents. The fact that they may have thousands invested in the UK and can draw on it if and when in minutes but their actual monthly pensions will not reach 1,809 per annum, appears to be of no account.

[waddo]

BJB, I was trying to be kind with "SOME". The £1809 is the amount per month that a "Renter" of "Leaseholder" will now be required to prove for residency purposes. Those "MANY" pensioners who can/are going to make appointments with Estate Agents must be those who already own their property and therefore only have to prove £603 a month in income.

That has never made any sense to me by the way - the renter pays rent every month so why do they have to prove that they have an income of THREE times the minimum wage to be able to live here? When the person who owns a property can live on ONE minimum wage yet the renter and the owner will still have the same outgoings - electricity, gas, petrol, food, etc, etc.

In the end the renter packs up and leaves taking all their income that they spend here monthly with them - the owner sells, packs up and leaves, taking all the profits from the house sale and their income with them. Just how does the Government win in any of those situations??

The "Fast Buck" is not always the answer but it seems to be in charge.

[benjaminbutton]

Waddo, regardless, the whole procedure, appears to my limited intelligence, a complete nonsense and I know many pensioners who came over convinced, and in reality had at the time, more than enough to live comfortably, spreading their pensions around all over, but not having glass balls,knowing that relevant Governments would increase minimum wage at regular intervals, thus reducing their pensions accordingly. Other expat retirees from countries other than UK, will not feel the pinch anything like Brits. They receive the lowest pensions in Europe and work much longer prior to retirement. Don't get me on my Brexit soap box!!!

[SuperMario]

I've read this post with interest. I'm not sure where these "required income" figures have come from? I've recently been in communication with a residency lawyer in TRNC and she states that for a family residency permit the following is required Quote:

" If you do not own a property in the TRNC, you should apply for a residence permit based on high income.

Therefore, you must fulfill TWO main requirements:

1. Rent a property in Northern Cyprus for at least 6 months and provide the tenancy agreement registered at the TRNC Tax Office;

2. Your monthly income is at least GBP/USD/EUR 1250 or you have savings of GBP/USD/EUR 15,000 (bank statements can be issued by a foreign bank)."

Note these figures were correct as of October 27th 2022.

[alphamike]

Have forgotten what it is now.

I found I had noted the Min Wage July 2022, although am not sure if that was the latest before this new rise.
July 2022 
Gross 9885 TL. 
Net 8600TL


[alphamike]

SuperMario, the figures you were given would have tallied up with 3 times gross minimum wage at the time, which is what is required for people renting. As the minimum wage has increased, so will the sum required for residency.

[SuperMario]

SuperMario, the figures you were given would have tallied up with 3 times gross minimum wage at the time, which is what is required for people renting. As the minimum wage has increased, so will the sum required for residency.

Thanks for the updated info. What sort of approx income in GBP pcm do you think would be suitable for a couple renting a 1-2 bed property these days?
We're pretty frugal.

[alphamike]

Thanks for the updated info. What sort of approx income in GBP pcm do you think would be suitable for a couple renting a 1-2 bed property these days?
We're pretty frugal.

Oh goodness, now you are asking! I honestly don't have a clue, frugal to me may be totally different to your frugal.
However, for residency purposes for rental you will need to show income of roughly £1800 per month (annual equivalent around £21600) which can be made up of income and savings. Those figures are rough going on todays rate of exchange on Google.

[waddo]

Don't forget that if you are "High Income" (Renting/Leasing) then only one of the couple will apply as high income, the other half of the couple will apply as a family member! In effect this means that if the couple has a joint account then all of the income from both of the couple can be taken into account as the high earners income.

There must be a better way to explain that - but I can't get my head around it today! Best bet is to look at this: https://www.infonorthcyprus.com/temporary-residency

Then figure it out for yourselves! The current fees have not been brought up to date as yet as it is still very early since the change in minimum wages so please take that into account as well!

[gates]

If you own your house of course it doesn’t cost as much each month. Have of your money gone on rent or more so why should homeowners have to show as much. Also why make life harder for some people. I don’t understand why anyone wants to up the amount its stupid

[waddo]

Gates, Apart from the rental monthly, how much less does a home owner pay than a home renter? Are you trying to tell me that a home renter has to earn the rent first, then twice the minimum wage on top of that to afford to live here? If so can you explain how it is possible for the thousands of Turkish Cypriots who have always rented their home to live?

Trying to convince me that the current requirement for three times the minimum wage because you rent is not going to fly I am afraid. I see no reason at all why either a renter or a home owner should have to prove the arbitrary figure of three times minimum wage.

If I move from here to say Germany/Spain/France would I have to prove earnings of three times their minimum wages to be able to rent a home - NO! So it is a Cyprus thing once again, let me ask my TC friend who rents in Manchester if his rent is three times what his next door neighbor pays or has to prove he earns to be allowed to stay in the UK.

[benjaminbutton]

Someone once told me some time ago that Renters had the ability to take off leaving debts all over the place, jump on a plane and flee leaving their responsibilities behind, hence they had to pay more. Whereas someone who owned a house was less likely to do a runner as they had much more invested in their property, hence they paid less. At the time it seemed to make sence, but I'm not sure now.!!

[gates]

If you have £2 £300 k invested in your house surely this makes sense that you’re not going to do a runner leave it all behind. Also if you sell up you have to pay all debt before the sale can go through plus you have this capital to use if needed so surely this makes a better bet than a family living on a minimal income and having to pay rent at at least half of it

[waddo]

Gates, I agree with your logic - now tell me why all home owners are not automatically given citizenship then? Regardless of how you live - rent or own - if you (as a Temporary Resident) fall foul of the law just how fast will the homeowner be deported as opposed to the renter? That being the case how does being a homeowner make you a "better bet"? You may still be able to sell your property when you are off the Island but I would bet you anything that it could take years to achieve that!

My point is that the size difference in income requirement does not make any sense at all, the original financial requirements were laid down in the constitution many years ago when you had to prove to the Captain of the ship that you had sufficient funds to remain. Then all of a sudden new rules came into place and the hunt for fast money took off.

[a1sysman]

...
If I move from here to say ... Spain ... would I have to prove earnings of three times their minimum wages to be able to rent a home ...

You would have to provide this information as a minimum...

In order to demonstrate that you have sufficient economic means, you will need to show proof of original documents including bank statements, business accounts, pension statements and/or other assets and investments that you hold.

As of 2022, the following are the minimum income requirements for the non-lucrative visa in Spain.

Main Applicant - The main visa applicant will need to prove an income of 400% of the Spanish IPREM (Indicador Público de Renta de Efectos Múltiples), which in 2022 equates to €579,02. This means you will need to have an income of at least €2,316,08 per month or its legal equivalent in foreign currency.

Family Members - For each family member, you will need to have a further monthly income of 100% of the IPREM which would be €579,02 per month. For the support of each of the family members in charge, monthly, 100% of the IPREM, which in 2022 amounts to 579,02 € or its legal equivalent in foreign currency.

Sample Minimum Incomes

So if you planned on moving to Spain with yourself, a partner and two children, you would be looking at the following minimum income levels.

Main Applicant - €27,792.96/£23,225.19 (Yearly)
Partner - €6,948.24/£5,805.09 (Yearly)
Child 1 - €6,948.24/£5,805.09 (Yearly)
Child 2 - €6,948.24/£5,805.09 (Yearly)

This means that a UK couple wishing to get residency in Spain would need a total monthly income of £2,419.19 and a yearly income of £29,030.28

A UK family of three would need a monthly income of £2,902,94 and a yearly income of £34,835,37

A UK family of four would need a monthly income of £3,386.70 and a yearly income of £40,640.46

** Rates correct as of 28/07/2022 - €1 = £0.84

Source: https://www.healthplanspain.com/blog/ex ... spain.html

[waddo]

a1stsman, Thanks for that, things have sure changed since the UK "took back control" of its own destiny then! Fortunately we have absolutely no intention of moving back or onwards to anywhere else but it makes things hard for those who are just starting out on life's journey in a new land.

I wonder what the requirements are for non-UK citizens who move from another country - legally - to the UK?

[alphamike]

I think that most countries nowadays require you to be able to support yourself and to show that you have have the income to do this, UK included.
Some info on this site for all sorts of visas, but I was looking at retirement visas. https://visaguide.world/retirement-visa/

I think that in the past, this country has been pretty lax really with temp residency requirements. I think that there was always a supposed amount you were supposed to have, but in reality they didn't seem to bother. My first residency back in 2010, was told I needed a bank statement and naively just took current account statement of about 6000TL, which was probably equivalent of around £2500 and it was accepted. (I have just checked and 6000TL is now worth £264.49. Just brings a touch of reality as to how TL has really slumped over the years.)
Friends who lived here for a long time, told me that I should really have shown about £6000 or something of that ilk and were surprised that I had got away with it. Of course after that, I always took savings account bank statements too, just to be on the safe side. At that time though, no officialdom ever told me what income I had to show for living here, it was all word of mouth from other expats.

At least we all know now for sure, what we have to show as income/savings, and not left wondering whether we will get through the process of residency. Unfortunately, many of us who have been here a long time, did not expect the current state of affairs at to the state of TL, and new rules differentiating between home owners and renters. I can see that renters have more outgoings, but it does seem unfair, perhaps double would be a bit fairer, but at least it's not the 5 times min wage that was bandied about recently for renters, sorry "high income".

Many have left already, and probably more to follow. I imagine that there are quite a number of people really concerned now as to whether they can remain here or not. It's a damned shame, as it's a great country to live in, despite all the little foibles.

[waddo]

alphamike, I am not concerned (yet) about ourselves as we have more than sufficient income in pensions to meet the rise/s for the foreseeable future (Very little in savings I am afraid) but it is annoying that after 16 years of "Temporary Residency" here we remain in the position of never being able to gain "Permanent Residency" and only found out about 4 years ago that the residency stamps in the passport were worthless but if I had 6 work permit stamps then I could get "Permanent Residency" - now too old to work and don't want to anyway - lol.

If instead of leasing the land on which we paid for our home to be built - and then having to pay tax on the leasehold amount as well - we had purchased the land and taken more Turkish Title land away from the Cypriots we could have applied for Permanent residency under the £120K purchase price that was dreamed up some years ago. However, that is hindsight and the Government continues to make a good income from the Temporary people.

Still, I still think it is a great country and the people are, in the main, happy and friendly but like us, confused as to while we still have no Kimlik - lol.

[alphamike]

Waddo, am glad that you have peace of mind for the foreseeable future. Fortunately, I am ok too, just so long as I don't do anything rash and splash out big time. I do have great sympathy for the people who have lived here for quite some time, and are not so fortunate, it's just so unfair, especially if they are able to support themselves, but not meet the current figures required for temp residency.

Agree with you fully on the goalposts repeatedly changing for permanent residency. Honestly thought I'd have that by now and permanent meaning permanent. As I understand it now, permanent residency has to be renewed every 2 years, so there doesn't seem to be any benefit over temp residency, if I have got that right. I didn't know that about having 6 work permit stamps. Not that it applies to me, never having worked here, and certainly wouldn't want to, or be able to now.

[waddo]

alphamike, quite right, for myself as a renter there is no point at all now of getting permanent residency as I would still have to prove the same income as a high earner. The 6 years with work permit was correct 4 years ago but who knows what has changed since. Now considering getting a boat and landing in the Karpas to claim I am an illegal immigrant. At least that way I could get into the South more often or be sent back to my country of origin for free. Then again I left UK for good so I guess that would not work either - lol. The only option should we run out of enough to "Prove" we can stay is to drop off the radar like hundreds have already done. I suppose I could always sign up to any University - they don't seem to bother the vanishing students very much either - lol.

What a game, after being repeatedly "stuffed" for 16 years it does not give people much hope in the end.

[snd1966]

but if I had 6 work permit stamps then I could get "Permanent Residency" - now too old to work and don't want to anyway - lol.

To make you feel better a beyaz kimlik issued through work, has to be renewed every 2 years, its only issued for 10 years.
To qualify for a renewal, it's a medical, x-ray, blood and typhoid, ins and outs, local police report, muhtar letter and most important social signorta is up to date, plus of course money. The only plus point from a work permit is it is easier for you to change employer or so they tell me. So it's no way permanent and to qualify in the first place the work permits have to be continuous, I respect the fact I have been a very lucky girl with my employer.
After 10 years I have applied for a kimlik, but with covid, getting a police report from my original country, twice! (Covid), police interview, medical I can see in March I maybe having to renew my beyaz kimlik.

[waddo]

Light at the end of the tunnel - maybe! I did read in Yeniduzen a couple of days ago that the CTP are pushing for a White Kimlik for everyone so that a true census can be made and the number (actual) of people living in the North can be found out! Don't see that working out well myself as the hills are always full of people on census day anyway - lol. But it is a though I suppose. Maybe I should have said "Candle" at the end of the "Lærdal" instead of just tunnel - lol.

[alphamike]

Thanks for that Snd1966, so no matter what way, there are always obstacles and no permanency at all.

[SuperMario]

We were told by the lawyer that the entry requirements for a couple (family residency permit) are either the income OR the savings, and that just the main provider would be judged on the latter. So no problem really as long as you have some decent savings.

[alphamike]

It can be a combination of income and savings, just so long as you can meet the gross minimum wage requirements for residency.

The problem that some long term expats have here, is that they changed Sterling to TL, to take advantage of higher interest rates for savings. The problem now is, that TL has devalued greatly over the years, so what would have been a sizeable sum, has eroded big time, and some no longer have that comfortable cushion they thought they had.

[benjaminbutton]

It works both ways though alphamike, some of us did quite the opposite and moved quickly away from TL back into sterling or dollars. We took a bit of a loss in transferring the money but have more than made up for it since. Consequently so when asked to show our savings in TL, we have little to show.

[alphamike]

Very true BB, at least the right choice was made, otherwise the loss would have been much greater. Think most people would have taken a bit of a hit, myself included. I felt a bit burned at the time, but looking back, got let off very lightly.

[Keithcaley]

Very true BB, at least the right choice was made, otherwise the loss would have been much greater. Think most people would have taken a bit of a hit, myself included. I felt a bit burned at the time, but looking back, got let off very lightly.

I tried to be clever and swapped currencies when I thought that the exchange rate was going to go one way or the other... I turned out to be not so clever, and made a loss each time that I did it

I didn't really have all that much cash in savings accounts here, but I don't have all that much cash anyway, so it still hurt!

I finally bit the bullet about four and a half years ago when the Lira hit 8 to the Pound - If I'd only waited for a few weeks or so, it dropped back to about 6! but I resolved never to dabble with Lira again, and that has proved to be the correct decision - for once...

I don't know how people whose income and savings are in Lira cope with inflation really.

[alphamike]

I feel your pain KC, if only we had a crystal ball. Sods law that you cashed in just a few weeks too early. I've never had the stomach for playing the currency market, but if I had, would probably always end up losing.
Inflation here is unbelievable, think I read it was about 97% over the last year, goodness knows how people are coping earning in TL. With this new rise in min wage, prices are sure to go up yet again to cover the cost.

[benjaminbutton]

I spoke to a friend (Brit) yesterday, who told me she was delighted the Minimum wage had gone up, as did her TRNC pension. Been here 35 years and used to own a business here. Stopped when she met all the TRNC pension requirements.

[SuperMario]

TRNC is a separate State to the Turkish mainland. In N Cyprus the minimum wage has been put up to just under 12000TL. Around £520.

[SuperMario]

SuperMario, the figures you were given would have tallied up with 3 times gross minimum wage at the time, which is what is required for people renting. As the minimum wage has increased, so will the sum required for residency.

"or have the annual equivalent of 3xthe minimum wage in their bank account" from the official website: https://www.infonorthcyprus.com/temporary-residency.

So in real terms this means for TRNC currently after the recent increase in minimum wage which was NOT that stated by the original post here, but just under 12000TL, works out at approx. £18000. Hence for a family permit the main provider simply has to show savings above the annual equivalent of this. The partner/spouse does not have to show anything at all.

[SuperMario]

It can be a combination of income and savings, just so long as you can meet the gross minimum wage requirements for residency.

The problem that some long term expats have here, is that they changed Sterling to TL, to take advantage of higher interest rates for savings. The problem now is, that TL has devalued greatly over the years, so what would have been a sizeable sum, has eroded big time, and some no longer have that comfortable cushion they thought they had.

It's 3xthe minimum wage (in TRNC 12000TL) in monthly income, OR above the annual equivalent in savings. I don't think you can juggle the two together.

[alphamike]

SuperMario, I believe that you can juggle the two together. However, seeing as my income is over the min wage, I haven't had to try it out.

I don't know where you are getting this 12000TL min wage from, unless you are referring to the net min monthly wage which is 11800 TL. Residency goes by the gross monthly wage, which is 13, 563TL which has just recently been announced as shown in link in first post.

[SuperMario]

alphamike I was just quoting a residency lawyer in TRNC who wrote this yesterday:

"Please note that TRNC is a separate state and the official decision made by the Turkish authorities does not affect the TRNC.

However, recently the TRNC government has increased the minimum salary wage which amounts now to almost TL12.000."

[alphamike]

SuperMario, I am more confused than ever, which isn't difficult. I think we all know that TRNC has nothing to do with Turkey, but I can't see any reference to Turkey in the article I posted in message 1, which relates to TRNC. I honestly have no idea what this advocate is on about, but as I haven't seen the full text, it's hard to come to a proper understanding. If this advocate is stating that residency requirements should just be the net minimum wage, it's news to me and I would double check to be on the safe side.

Furthermore, if you look at https://www.infonorthcyprus.com/temporary-residency , particularly "Foreigners Who are Eligible to apply for Temp Residency Permit" and the part where it says 3 times monthly min wage, you will see that the figure quoted is 9885 TL effective from July 2022.

The figure quoted there is the gross minimum monthly wage at the old rate, not the net rate. (See my post No. 8 on this thread)

[waddo]

alphamike, for my last 16 residencies it has always been based on the GROSS minimum monthly wage - that is before tax is paid - the NET is after tax is paid and what the minimum wage earner "should" get in their hands! A point which always has annoyed me as my pensions are received as a NET payment from the UK, having already paid tax on the GROSS amount that I receive. If there was a double taxation agreement with the TRNC, the same as with Turkey then I would pay income tax here and not the UK - don't know if that would be better or worse - lol.

[alphamike]

Thanks Waddo, that's the way I've understood it.

[benjaminbutton]

I wonder if this still applies. Five years ago we met a couple of expats in Antalya and the obvious pros and cons of retiring to Turkey and TRNC came up. They said they were the best off financially because after two years of residency and purchasing a property, they no longer paid any tax as people over 65 paid none in Turkey and it applied to expats as well. Apparently there is/was a double taxation agreement with UK and Turkey. He had been an accountant in UK.