Euros 2021

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EnjoyingTheSun
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Re: Euros 2021

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AFC wrote:
Wed 14 Jul 2021 11:52 am


Racism can never be justified.
That's a given. no-one has justified it so moving along.
AFC wrote:
Wed 14 Jul 2021 11:52 am

Black people killing other black people is no justification for racism, and I really do not see the mutual relationship or connection between the two. So what are we saying here, inner city black gang crime justifies racism? How is inner city crime relevant to racist abuse???
Its not. Again no-one has said it is so moving along.
I have pointed out that I found it rather strange that an organisation which has as its title Blacks Lives Matter and constantly publicises any murders of black people is strangely silent on it. Not even a "come on guys lets stop stabbing each other" because a lot of black mothers fear whether their sons are coming home in one piece. They will ignore 100s of deaths to concentrate solely on one death. I find it very sad when a black lad is murdered with his life in front of him I don't find it more acceptable if another black lad did it.
AFC wrote:
Wed 14 Jul 2021 11:52 am

In terms of politics, again what does Marxist, communist or capitalist ideology have to do with racism? Again is there a correlation between marxism and tolerance and capitalism and racism?
So we want to end racism? I'll frame the question in a different way. Do you think Marxism will help in the fight against racism or do you think capitalism will help in the fight against racism? You wont answer but.......

AFC wrote:
Wed 14 Jul 2021 11:52 am

The UK as a nation is overwhelmingly far more tolerant of immigrants then the rest of Europe,
seems to be that way so why?
AFC wrote:
Mon 12 Jul 2021 11:42 am

I see all the racists cheering England on, now turning on and racially abusing the black players.

Doesn't it make you proud to be English!
AFC wrote:
Wed 14 Jul 2021 11:52 am

The sad thing about the petition, it has a picture of Saka being pulled back Chiellini with the caption being dragged by like he was a slave.

Not a single person who has signed the petition for the game to be replayed has objected to the terminology used. That would be unacceptable were the UK racism free.
The far right and the far left are both using horrendous images to fight a culture war. I won't put up examples of both sides doing this but feel free to google.
The end game is not to let extremists to divide us. Don't encourage people who want chaos in the name of social justice.

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Re: Euros 2021

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Brazen wrote:
Wed 14 Jul 2021 1:10 pm
Has anybody actually seen the racist tweets? I haven’t so don’t know whether they are, or whether they are just critical of bad penalty takers.
you'll struggle to find ANY.
Quite rightly they are taken down immediately.
You will see a few screenshots of some which on closer examination seem to undermine the narrative of 1000s of white supremacists abusing these players.
If you have a good look you'll see evidence that a fair few are from black people themselves.
It seems to be a lot of misinformation to stir up trouble.
Go on the players timelines and see the 1000s upon 1000s of supportive messages.
You'll see the odd "that was a crap penalty" which isn't the kindest comment but pretty accurate tbf and not racist.

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Re: Euros 2021

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On a lighter note the controversy over Tom Cruise getting a ticket for the Euro final has been solved.
He was there in a working capacity.
Do you remember the little car that delivered the ball to the centre circle at the start of the game?
A lot of us mistakingly thought it was remote controlled.

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Re: Euros 2021

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EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Wed 14 Jul 2021 2:33 pm
On a lighter note the controversy over Tom Cruise getting a ticket for the Euro final has been solved.
He was there in a working capacity.
Do you remember the little car that delivered the ball to the centre circle at the start of the game?
A lot of us mistakingly thought it was remote controlled.
😂

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Re: Euros 2021

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AFC wrote:
Wed 14 Jul 2021 11:52 am


An online petition has been started to have the the England game replayed, signed by 150,000 people or there abouts due to the foul on Saka by Chiellini. The sad thing about the petition, it has a picture of Saka being pulled back Chiellini with the caption being dragged by like he was a slave.

Not a single person who has signed the petition for the game to be replayed has objected to the terminology used. That would be unacceptable were the UK racism free.
Do you have a link to this petition? Generally you can see how many people have signed the petition as well so I can verify that 150,000 people signed it without commentating on the imaging.

I totally agree bringing in a slavery angle is not good and is very emotive imaging.

I just want to get to the bottom of it.
To be clear you have the link to the petition, not a link to a story which is about the petition and could be an urban myth?
Like the inference 1000s of English people were racially abusing the 3 players? Which turned out to be total baloney.

I did find this link

https://www.sportbible.com/football/new ... 2.amp.html

With this quote in it.

However, Chiellini lost the ball in injury. Now, Change.org user Custard Cream claimed the match was "not fair at all" and alleged that the match officials were "biased" in favour of Italy. The petition's description reads: "The match on 11/07/2021 was not fair at all. After Italy only receiving a yellow card for dragging England players like they were slaves.

So is it a change.org petition?
This is the change.org which isn't by any shape or form a right or far right organisation?
The change.org that I don't think is unfair to say is at the very least left of centre?

Thanking you in advance

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Re: Euros 2021

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EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Wed 14 Jul 2021 1:13 pm
AFC wrote:
Wed 14 Jul 2021 11:52 am
In terms of politics, again what does Marxist, communist or capitalist ideology have to do with racism? Again is there a correlation between marxism and tolerance and capitalism and racism?
So we want to end racism? I'll frame the question in a different way. Do you think Marxism will help in the fight against racism or do you think capitalism will help in the fight against racism? You wont answer but.......
Which of these personal choices is most likely to have a positive impact on racism in the UK ?

A. Constantly pushing a narrative over years of "So as far as a racism problem in Britain exists, it really doesn’t. That battle has been won, you are bayoneting the wounded."

B. Constantly waffling on about the dangers of Marxism.

C. Letting those who are taking a stand against racism get on with it without constantly seeking any way no matter how extreme to try and dismiss or misrepresent their actions, their motivations and their objectives.

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Re: Euros 2021

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Its very apparent that taking the knee angers many people who are in no way racist because of its connection with an extreme racist organisation, so why don’t the FA, the clubs and the players come up with an alternative? Surely that’s not above their capabilities?

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Re: Euros 2021

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Well woohoo I AM a Marxist, unfortunately for the ostriches, I'm only a Groucho-Marxist. I've come to the conclusion that no amount of logic will persuade the obstinate racism denier.

The idea that because the percentage of a large population is very low, that we should somehow construe that it's a storm in a teacup, rather than a stain on society and more specifically football, belies the fact that football audiences are only a minority of the overall population, then smaller still the number of active players, yet smaller still the players who are non-white and then guess what they are adamant that to a man/ woman that they are treated to a daily dose of racist abuse - which is not a small percentage as for them (not you) it's 100% of a problem.

I don't expect you to understand..

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Re: Euros 2021

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Brazen wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 7:52 am
Its very apparent that taking the knee angers many people who are in no way racist because of its connection with an extreme racist organisation, so why don’t the FA, the clubs and the players come up with an alternative? Surely that’s not above their capabilities?
maybe because they are not idiots that gobble up with glee the fiction that anyone who ever uses the words BLM or take the knee as a form of protest is therefore supporting an extreme racist (or Marxist or is it both now ?) organisation. The very notion is itself imo an 'extreme' viewpoint and we all agree extremism should be avoided do we not ?

What happened to personal freedom and choice ? Should individuals themselves not be free to chose what form of protest they want to use, what words they want to use ? You want them to be forced by a central body like the FA to not do so, because it allegedly upsets 'many' people who are in no way racist as well as upsetting everyone who is racist ? Kind of sounds like marxism to me !

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Re: Euros 2021

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Brazen wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 7:52 am
Its very apparent that taking the knee angers many people who are in no way racist because of its connection with an extreme racist organisation, so why don’t the FA, the clubs and the players come up with an alternative? Surely that’s not above their capabilities?
So much disinformation bred on the internet.. I get the impression that many feel they should be offended as the very clever sowers of social media discontent somehow are able to convince them that this gesture is aimed at them, and that they should be affronted at being under attack, which they shouldn't unless they are racists, in which case yes they are.

The gesture is not inextricably linked to BLM, that's a narrative that racists try to push to muddy the waters. They take the knee to call out the endemic racism in society. They do not take the knee as a mark of disrespect, it is only to highlight the toxic nature of a minority. . Taking the knee pre-dates BLM, they don't own the gesture. Our players do not take the knee during any national anthems, in fact they stand and proudly sing their anthems with gusto, so that puts a lie to that theory.

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Re: Euros 2021

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It is in Breaking News on BBC web site this morning that Team GB, Womens Football Team will be TTK at Olympics. BLM spreading as quickly as pandemic. What next? Before the WI have their meetings, churches before services, before assembly in Schools? IMHO, that's the scary one.

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Re: Euros 2021

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benjaminbutton wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 9:36 am
It is in Breaking News on BBC web site this morning that Team GB, Womens Football Team will be TTK at Olympics. BLM spreading as quickly as pandemic. What next? Before the WI have their meetings, churches before services, before assembly in Schools? IMHO, that's the scary one.
Shock and horror - more and more people are choosing of their own free will to make a public stand against racism. What ever are we going to do ? Is it the end of the world as we know it ? I can imagine why that might scare someone. If you are a racist. Or if you believe that 'there is no racism problem in the UK' and can not handled that narrative being undermined by people's choices.

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Re: Euros 2021

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Brazen wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 7:52 am
Its very apparent that taking the knee angers many people who are in no way racist because of its connection with an extreme racist organisation, so why don’t the FA, the clubs and the players come up with an alternative? Surely that’s not above their capabilities?
Because they will be attacked for bowing down to pressure from racists.
Surely you must be getting the script by now?

Any of the players who choose not to take the knee would be attacked.
The black players would be called uncle toms or worse and the white players will be called racist.

This is not a fight against racism it is a culture war for the advancement of a cult.
Sadly many people whose fight is genuinely against racism have been used as pawns.

The gesture is connected to the BLM and for many the BLM is Marxist and toxic.

I have asked in many ways what are people’s views on Marxism but they wriggle like pretzels to avoid a very simple question. I don't doubt that they want to end racism but I do question is that their priority is here?

It’s an easy question to answer and even if they think I am using the question to change the subject surely they can use the opportunity to cut the ground from under me and say I despise Marxism or I am not a believer in Marxism in any shape or form.

But they can't, Why?

Erol I know personally and he is a very nice, big hearted chap.
If he leans towards Marxism it is because he wants this mass consumerism gone and us to be more equal, both of which I support fully.
Erol if he isn't already a Marxist, he has plenty of opportunity to deny, is a perfect person to be manipulated by an insidious cult.
Erol want's things better. He is looking for answers.
Erol probably thinks that Marxism is the best way to ensure that racism will end.

I respect that opinion, I really do, because we should be looking for answers on ways to end racism.
But Marxism doesn't have a good record on ending racism. In every country a form of Marxism has, or is, being practiced in
racism still exists often to a worse degree than normal sane countries.

All that will happen is black people will be more equal to white people only because both will be dirt poor.
Will it end an elite that black people feel they struggle to be part of?
Not really, I guarantee you if we had a Marxist government with it's ministers in their big houses and big cars the top BLM leaders that have proved their loyalty to Marxism would be invited to the party. Those who thought its aim was ending racism would not.

Now it has been a while since I read Marx’s stuff as I try not to waste time on drivel but I will do my best to summarise his and Engels theories on family, religion, nationhood and race.
I highly recommend anyone to read it as you will read it and think Jesus people buy into this?


Marxists argue that the nuclear family performs ideological functions for Capitalism – the family acts as a unit of consumption and teaches passive acceptance of hierarchy. It is also the institution through which the wealthy pass down their private property to their children, thus reproducing class inequality.
This is why they undermine the family unit at any and every opportunity. If you point out that research shows that children who grow up in a normal nuclear family they will throw a fit. This is why they want schools to teach your children and for parents to keep out of it. Once they finish taking over state schools they have the sole ability to take over young minds.

Marxists believe that religion arises in response to alienation, and acts as an 'opium of the masses'. This means that religion acts as an opiate to dull the pain of exploitation, and gives the working class hope through the promise of afterlife.
This is why religion is of zero importance to them but is still a battle to be won.
Any Muslims who think Marxists or the hard left are tolerant towards Islam let me assure you they will treat Islam exactly the same as all other religions.
Now you can be Jewish by birth and of course have zero interest in the religion so bear this in mind when you listen to the likes of Chomsky, Finkelstein and the JVL. or the asas to give them their correct grouping. Their number one priority is the advancement of Maxism so bear that in mind when you hear "As a Jew......" They aren't Jews they are Marxists.

Marx and Engels predicted the eventual dissolution of nations and their replacement by a community of humankind.
This is why they want people to be ashamed of their country. Why they want borders eliminated. Why they sneer at anything that could be construed as patriotism and label it nationalism.
Their ultimate aim is for the whole world to be one Marxist entity so the world shares the resources equally.
I mean it is a great aim, it is absolutely unattainable and as realistic as promising unicorn poop will cure cancer but you can see why a nice warm hearted chap like Erol falls for it.

Race they struggle a bit with. Marx and Engels regarded race as part of humanity’s natural conditions, upon which the production system rested. ‘Races’ endowed with superior qualities would boost economic development and productivity, while the less endowed ones would hold humanity back.
See their problem?
We start to talk about that one race might be better at some things than another race. Also Marx was a 25 carat anti-semite so they have had to make the race thing up on the hoof.
Basically like religion, country, family etc it really doesn't matter to them because you are all going to be dressed in grey dull clothes doing as you are told for bad food which you queue hours for. And any complaint will see harsh penalties.

So this is why you have seen dyed in the wool Marxists with zero interest in football take a new interest in football.
It's can audience for them to spread a narrative to. They aren't seeking social justice they are seeking chaos.
They are fanatics

Are Erol and Groucho etc fanatics?
Its probably too strong a word to use, they fall into the category of what Lenin used to call useful idiots.
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Re: Euros 2021

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erol wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 9:58 am
if you believe that 'there is no racism problem in the UK
Which no one said ever.

Do you think 300 tweets from a population of 56 million, from 16.5 UK twitter users who send 25 millions tweets a day is an indicator of a racist country?

Why wont you answer what your view of Marxism is? Cut the ground from under me, say I think Marxism is ludicrous and don't believe in it so stop asking me about it.

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Re: Euros 2021

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Groucho wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 8:18 am


The gesture is not inextricably linked to BLM, that's a narrative that racists try to push to muddy the waters. They take the knee to call out the endemic racism in society. They do not take the knee as a mark of disrespect, it is only to highlight the toxic nature of a minority. . Taking the knee pre-dates BLM, they don't own the gesture. Our players do not take the knee during any national anthems, in fact they stand and proudly sing their anthems with gusto, so that puts a lie to that theory.
blm banner.jpg
I can put up lots more if you want?

Football clubs reigned back on the BLM banners at grounds because they realise it is a toxic brand. In that spirit why don't they choose another gesture to further distance themselves from BLM?

Is it linked with BLM. Keir Starmer seems to think so.
keir starmer.jpg

So are you accusing me of being a racist? I'd be very careful if I was you.

But I will take the opportunity to clear it up.
I despise racism it is disgusting.
I despise the BNP as I despised the NF before it and I will despise any future party whose aim is racism and to turn people against each other. It is one of the main reasons I despise Marxism.

Thank you for the opportunity for allowing me the opportunity to illustrate that I do not support racism in any shape or form.

In that spirit I offer you the same opportunity to denounce Marxism?

Clever putting words into my mouth there. Where have I ever said our players take the knee during the national anthem? I said Colin Kaepernick did.
The people pushing for our players to carry out this gesture are wise enough to know that if our players were to disrespect their national anthem would cause an explosion of negative publicity.
They will chip away at peoples patriotism or nationalism, as they label it, in different more insidious ways. Doesn't it make you ashamed to be English that thousands of people, it isn't but.... who actually aren't from the UK it turns out send racist abuse.

Its clever. I never said it wasn't clever but people have got wise to it unfortunately.

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Re: Euros 2021

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EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 10:01 am
Brazen wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 7:52 am
Its very apparent that taking the knee angers many people who are in no way racist because of its connection with an extreme racist organisation, so why don’t the FA, the clubs and the players come up with an alternative? Surely that’s not above their capabilities?
Because they will be attacked for bowing down to pressure from racists.
Surely you must be getting the script by now?
You are the one who pushed the narrative that the England players only took the knee in the first because they are 'not very bright' and were 'pressured in to doing so'. Its a narrative , a story but it is one that is totally divorced from actual reality. Taking the knee was their choice, individually and collectively. If they really had of taken the 'line of least resistance' then they would not have made that choice.
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 10:01 am
Any of the players who choose not to take the knee would be attacked.
The black players would be called uncle toms or worse and the white players will be called racist.
Those who want to do it, those that do not, do not. It is not rocket science. It's called freedom of expression. That is exactly what the F1 drivers do. Some who want to make that public gesture do and some who do not do not.
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 10:01 am
This is not a fight against racism it is a culture war for the advancement of a cult. Sadly many people whose fight is genuinely against racism have been used as pawns.
It is only a culture war because you will not just let individuals chose. Anyone who makes the choice you do not like is attacked, must be attacked. If only you could just leave those that chose to make a stand get on with it there is no culture war and no problem at all.
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 10:01 am
The gesture is connected to the BLM and for many the BLM is Marxist and toxic.
So now you want to decide what I must think about such gestures ? Because YOU think the gestures are connected to an organisation that YOU think is Marxist and toxic, I must bow down to you and what you want. How about those who think the gesture is connected to a toxic marxist organisation do not make this gesture and leave those who do NOT think this to do what they want without being attacked ?
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 10:01 am
I have asked in many ways what are people’s views on Marxism
yes relentlessly like a broken record. I have said start a thread on this subject and I will give you my views and you did not start a thread but instead effectively called me a liar. Once more if you want my views on Marxism, then start a thread on that subject and you can have them. Be to lazy to do so or have an agenda that such views must be seen to be linked in the way you want such that you will not start a new thread, then you can go whistle my friend.

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Re: Euros 2021

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EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 10:05 am
erol wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 9:58 am
if you believe that 'there is no racism problem in the UK
Which no one said ever.
Actually YOU said it here on this forum. From long before the BLM phenomenon started. It is a long standing consistent narrative you have been pushing here on this forum for years. It is also why when you keep saying now, I would have no problem if the England players made some other gesture you would have no problem with that. I simply do not believe you.

viewtopic.php?p=234741#p234741
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Mon 08 Jul 2019 8:41 am
So as far as a racism problem in Britain exists, it really doesn’t. That battle has been won, you are bayoneting the wounded.
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Re: Euros 2021

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Groucho wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 7:54 am
Well woohoo I AM a Marxist, unfortunately for the ostriches, I'm only a Groucho-Marxist. I've come to the conclusion that no amount of logic will persuade the obstinate racism denier.
So to be clear you are against Marxism and will want to condemn Marxism?
Here's your chance?
Again putting words in my mouth. Where have I ever denied racism exists? Show me that post?

I deny the scale of the problem but of course it exists.

I have said it was a big problem in football and pointed out where football needs to do more but I say that football has gone a long long way to clean it's stable.

Strangely the football authorities turned a blind eye for many years when the problem was far more prevalent.
The likes of the BBC used to drown out monkey chants.
There was a game years ago Man U v West Brom where the chants were finally audible and the commentator actually raised it. The first time I ever heard that and I watch a lot of football and used to go to a lot of football. This was in 1978, do you believe they were the first such chants?

The FA anti racist campaign Kick it out started in 1993, I can assure you that racism in football didn't start in the early 90s. To be honest it was all but disappearing from the stands by then.

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Re: Euros 2021

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Post by erol »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 10:42 am
Again putting words in my mouth. Where have I ever denied racism exists? Show me that post?

I deny the scale of the problem but of course it exists.
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Mon 08 Jul 2019 8:41 am
So as far as a racism problem in Britain exists, it really doesn’t. That battle has been won, you are bayoneting the wounded.
That is the most explicit expression of this narrative you have been pushing for years on this forum. I could show many more. Do you want me to ? Racism as a problem in the UK does not exist is your clearly stated view. You are entitled to it. So go play sematics games now all you like. You think it is not a problem in Britain and have said so. Repeatedly in one form or another. For years.

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Re: Euros 2021

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erol wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 10:34 am

You are the one who pushed the narrative that the England players only took the knee in the first because they are 'not very bright' and were 'pressured in to doing so'. Its a narrative , a story but it is one that is totally divorced from actual reality. Taking the knee was their choice, individually and collectively. If they really had of taken the 'line of least resistance' then they would not have made that choice.
Again changing my words and the context. I certainly said the majority of professional footballers aren't the sharpest and stand by that.
We see social media pile ons all the time. Players have endorsements. They do face pressure if their perceived views do not follow the narrative.
erol wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 10:34 am

Those who want to do it, those that do not, do not. It is not rocket science. It's called freedom of expression. That is exactly what the F1 drivers do. Some who want to make that public gesture do and some who do not do not.
Wilf Zaha has stopped taking the knee. Please point out a white player who has done the same.
A white player couldn't, the pile on would be overwhelming.
erol wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 10:34 am

It is only a culture war because you will not just let individuals chose. Anyone who makes the choice you do not like is attacked, must be attacked. If only you could just leave those that chose to make a stand get on with it there is no culture war and no problem at all.
So if say Harry Kane said I totally despise racism but won't take the knee because I don't want to be seen to support the BLM organisation then he wouldn't have 100s of emails to his boot company and other endorsers seeking to cancel him? Really? You can honestly say that?
erol wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 10:34 am

So now you want to decide what I must think about such gestures ? Because YOU think the gestures are connected to an organisation that YOU think is Marxist and toxic, I must bow down to you and what you want. How about those who think the gesture is connected to a toxic marxist organisation do not make this gesture and leave those who do NOT think this to do what they want without being attacked ?
Well Groucho seems to think any who don't support the gesture and believe we need to take BLM out of the equation or racist so.....
What would be the problem in removing BLM from the equation and changing the gesture? The banners are coming down. It strikes me a bit like "ok we accept we have to lose the swastike flags but can we at least keep the sieg heil salute."
erol wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 10:34 am

yes relentlessly like a broken record. I have said start a thread on this subject and I will give you my views and you did not start a thread but instead effectively called me a liar. Once more if you want my views on Marxism, then start a thread on that subject and you can have them. Be to lazy to do so or have an agenda that such views must be seen to be linked in the way you want such that you will not start a new thread, then you can go whistle my friend.
You're good I'll give you that.
This translates into I want you out of this thread into another one which I can then ignore or bury in 50 paragraphs of 20 pound words which will avoid a simple question.

As for me calling you a liar I haven't and have given you ample opportunity to clear up your views.
Groucho has called me worse but you won't mention that as you raise your faux outrage

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Re: Euros 2021

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EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 10:30 am
I can put up lots more if you want?
You can put up a thousand if you like but it does not change the fact that you can use those words and NOT be supporting extreme marxism. There is an organisation in Cyprus called 'unite Cyprus now'. I do not personally support this organisation but I do want to see a united Cyprus. I can and do say unite Cyprus now without that having to mean I support the organisation of that name. Got it yet ?

The organisation 'Stand up to racism' uses the word 'black lives matter'. They are not called BLM and are not connected to the organisation in the US of that name, other than in the febrile minds of some. Yet they use the phrase BLM. Get over it.

Stop telling me that because YOU think anyone who ever uses the words BLM, what ever the context, whatever they say themselves, what ever the actual reality is, I MUST agree with you that they are therefore supporting a group in the US of that name. I do not agree. I think the very idea is preposterous. Extreme even. That is MY opinion and I am entitled to it.

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Re: Euros 2021

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erol wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 10:48 am
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Mon 08 Jul 2019 8:41 am
So as far as a racism problem in Britain exists, it really doesn’t. That battle has been won, you are bayoneting the wounded.
That is the most explicit expression of this narrative you have been pushing for years on this forum. I could show many more. Do you want me to ? Racism as a problem in the UK does not exist is your clearly stated view. You are entitled to it. So go play sematics games now all you like. You think it is not a problem in Britain and have said so. Repeatedly in one form or another. For years.
Please put as many quotes as you like up and ensure they are taken out of context.

Do racists exist in Britain? Of course they do haters have to hate.
Do we have a problem with racism in Britain. Not really, we have taken enormous strides over the last 50 years and we now have a country where not only is it illegal to be openly racist it is an uncomfortable environment to be openly racist.

I don't think there is an enormous problem with serial killers in Britain but I do acknowledge that there are some.

As for sematics you are one to talk.
Were someone to bring up that most of the terrorist murders in the UK over the last 15 years have been because of extreme Islamists you would blur and spin the life out of that.
"Why would you even raise that, what are your motivations for raising that, most Muslims are peaceful etc etc etc."
The person might say that overwhelmingly most Muslims aren't peaceful but surely even one death from an act of terrorism is one too many?
And off you would go blurring and spinning your way down an Alice in Wonderland rabbit hole to try and illustrate night is day.

Like I say my biggest bugbear is hypocrisy and double standards

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Re: Euros 2021

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erol wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 10:57 am
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 10:30 am
I can put up lots more if you want?
You can put up a thousand if you like but it does not change the fact that you can use those words and NOT be supporting extreme marxism. There is an organisation in Cyprus called 'unite Cyprus now'. I do not personally support this organisation but I do want to see a united Cyprus. I can and do say unite Cyprus now without that having to mean I support the organisation of that name. Got it yet ?
I support a united Ireland. Always have done. But I would always welcome the chance to condemn the IRA at any and every opportunity.
I would never allow any doubt that my support for an ideal in any way supports a particular noxious group. If there was ANY way my support for a united Ireland could be in any way confused with support for the IRA then I would push for a new way.
Got it yet?
erol wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 10:57 am

The organisation 'Stand up to racism' uses the word 'black lives matter'. They are not called BLM and are not connected to the organisation in the US of that name, other than in the febrile minds of some. Yet they use the phrase BLM. Get over it.

Stop telling me that because YOU think anyone who ever uses the words BLM, what ever the context, whatever they say themselves, what ever the actual reality is, I MUST agree with you that they are therefore supporting a group in the US of that name. I do not agree. I think the very idea is preposterous. Extreme even. That is MY opinion and I am entitled to it.
The BLM rightly or wrongly is viewed as a toxic brand and puts off many from supporting a very worthy ideal. Personally I'd wish to try and reclaim those waverers and if it took clear rebranding to remove BLM from the equation then that would be a small price to pay. But some seem determined that we must not lose BLM from the cause. I question why?

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Re: Euros 2021

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Erol do you think that people saying All Lives Matter are racist?
After all it is in every ones interests to remove thugs from our police force, no?
Whenever anyone says surely All Lives Matter they are leapt on as being racist

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Re: Euros 2021

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EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 10:56 am
Again changing my words and the context. I certainly said the majority of professional footballers aren't the sharpest and stand by that.
Your exact words were
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Fri 09 Jul 2021 6:22 pm
As for the footballers, as a rule they aren’t the sharpest knives in the draw and in these days of cancel culture and organised social media pile ons they are probably terrified not to go along with it.
Your narrative was clearly that the England players did not really want to take the knee, individually or collectively but only did so because they not that sharp and bowed to pressure. I think that is plainly and obviously the total opposite of what the actual reality is. I think they WANTED to do this and did so with courage despite the massive pressure on them to not do it or stop doing it. Pressure from government ministers and MP's and countless other sources. You spin a story of 'not very bright' young men bowing to pressure. I see a reality of thoughtful sincere and inspirational young men standing up for their convictions DESPITE massive pressure to not do so.
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 10:56 am
Wilf Zaha has stopped taking the knee. Please point out a white player who has done the same. A white player couldn't, the pile on would be overwhelming.
Several (white) F1 drivers made the choice to either not ever take the knee or do so once and then stop and the REALITY is there has been little to no 'pile on' and it's not in the news or being talked about on social media on in forums like this and everyone just gets on with it. No need for any culture wars at all. Until it is you start ranting about those who have decided to do it are supporting extreme Marxism.
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 10:56 am
So if say Harry Kane said I totally despise racism but won't take the knee because I don't want to be seen to support the BLM organisation then he wouldn't have 100s of emails to his boot company and other endorsers seeking to cancel him? Really? You can honestly say that?
So in fiction you care what Harry Kane says but in the real world you ignore it totally ?

I can honestly say that if HK said this I would not be sending emails to his boot company to cancel him, or talking about it here or anything else. I would think 'fair enough mate, you are entitled to your opinion, do not agree but I personally will not make any problem out of it'. But this is all hypotetical. In the real world he did NOT say this. He said the exact opposite and YOU are the one as an individual trying to cancel him.
erol wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 10:34 am
Well Groucho seems to think ....
I do not speak for Groucho. He is more than able to do that for himself
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 10:56 am
You're good I'll give you that. This translates into I want you out of this thread into another one which I can then ignore or bury in 50 paragraphs of 20 pound words which will avoid a simple question.
What it translates in to is 'if you want my views on marxism then start a thread on marxism'. But we both know you have no interest here in what the reality is of my views on Marxism are. The reality is all you care about is pushing your narratives regardless of what the actual reality is.
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 10:56 am
As for me calling you a liar I haven't and have given you ample opportunity to clear up your views. Groucho has called me worse but you won't mention that as you raise your faux outrage
Other people's 'outrage' is always 'faux' for you if you do not agree with them. It's pretty much the definition of what 'faux' means to you when used with the word 'outrage'. You devalue the actually meaning of the word so it ends up actually meaning 'outrage I do not agree with'. Want me to show the number of times you have done this, here on this very forum ?

search.php?keywords=faux+outrage&terms= ... mit=Search

You constantly make out you know the real reason why I want you to start a new thread. You believe it's because I want to be able "ignore or bury in 50 paragraphs of 20 pound words which will avoid a simple question." That the logic that if that was really what I wanted to do is , I could do so as easily here in this thread as any other seems to have escaped does not surprise me. In a world of uncertainty I know absolutely 100% why I would give my views on Marxism in a thread about Marxism but am not going to do so here in a thread titled 'Euros 2021'. I have said why. Yet you continue to push your narrative that YOU know the real reason and it is not the one I have given and then call my 'outrage' (your word not mine) at you doing this, repeatedly 'faux'.

But keep going. Whilst you will not brow beat me in to giving my views on marxism here in a thread titled euros 2021 you might push me in to starting such a new thread myself.

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Re: Euros 2021

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EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 11:17 am
I support a united Ireland. Always have done. But I would always welcome the chance to condemn the IRA at any and every opportunity.I would never allow any doubt that my support for an ideal in any way supports a particular noxious group. If there was ANY way my support for a united Ireland could be in any way confused with support for the IRA then I would push for a new way. Got it yet?
So you would advise new parents to not name their child Ira ? Advise the US government to change the names of the Individual retirement account and the Indian Reorganization Act. The philipines government to rename the Internal Revenue Allotment. All the following organisations to change their name

Indian Reunification Association
Indian Rationalist Association
Indian Rights Association, US, for Native Americans
Initiative for the Resurgence of the Abolitionist Movement (IRA), a Mauritania anti-slavery group
Insurance Regulatory Authority (Kenya), the authority charged with regulation and supervision of Kenya's insurance industry
Intercollegiate Rowing Association, US
International Reading Association, now the International Literacy Association
Internet Research Agency or "The Trolls of Olgino", a Russian state-sponsored troll group
ICAO designator for Iran Air, an Iranian airline
Íslenskir Radíóamatörar, ÍRA, an amateur radio organization in Iceland

get the towns

Ira, Iowa
Ira Township, Michigan
Ira, Missouri
Ira, New York
Ira, Texas

to change their names ?

All because people might not care if they actually ARE supporters of the IRA but might mistakenly think they are ?

Get it yet ?
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 11:17 am
The BLM rightly or wrongly is viewed as a toxic brand and puts off many from supporting a very worthy ideal. Personally I'd wish to try and reclaim those waverers and if it took clear rebranding to remove BLM from the equation then that would be a small price to pay. But some seem determined that we must not lose BLM from the cause. I question why?
BLM is seen as a toxic brand by some people and not by others. I do not think those words in this context are a brand. I think they are an idea, a concept and ideal and I think they HAVE already been reclaimed by the clear and obvious reality of the vast numbers of people globally who have and are using them in way that is NOTHING to do with extreme marxism and everything to do with opposing racism. I think those people like you who insist their use can only be in support of an extreme Marxist organisation are the minority. A tiny but loud and vocal minority. I think those that refuse to accept the words have already been reclaimed from meaning 'supporting of a extreme marxist organisation' to 'supporting the idea of equality for all' do so because they have an agenda. I will not be bullied in to accepting what is to me plain and obvious nonsense and divorced from actual reality. To do so would be to support by action the notion that you can not use the words BLM without supporting a marxist organisation. Vast numbers of people have already proven that NOT to be true.

If you want to know if any given individual does or does not support the organisation in the US of that name , then why not just ask them and then just respect their answer ? If you want to know if they think that orgnisation is toxic or not, why not just ask them and respect their answer ? Why do you have to insist that because those words mean one thing to you, others who for whom they mean something entirely different must then modify their behaviours to satisfy you ? Sounds pretty totalitarian to me.

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Re: Euros 2021

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erol wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 11:38 am

Your exact words were
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Fri 09 Jul 2021 6:22 pm
As for the footballers, as a rule they aren’t the sharpest knives in the draw and in these days of cancel culture and organised social media pile ons they are probably terrified not to go along with it.
Your narrative was clearly that the England players did not really want to take the knee, individually or collectively but only did so because they not that sharp and bowed to pressure. I think that is plainly and obviously the total opposite of what the actual reality is. I think they WANTED to do this and did so with courage despite the massive pressure on them to not do it or stop doing it. Pressure from government ministers and MP's and countless other sources. You spin a story of 'not very bright' young men bowing to pressure. I see a reality of thoughtful sincere and inspirational young men standing up for their convictions DESPITE massive pressure to not do so.

I stand by the quote. Footballers generally aren’t the brightest and aren’t the deepest political thinkers. Some are but most aren’t. Watch interviews after the game. Even some of the pundits aren’t terribly eloquent and they are the cream. They are ideal to be manipulated.
As for the pressure from government etc.
Would it really harm their brand to have a go at Johnson?
It would enhance it, worked for Kaepernick.

Footballers have a personal brand to protect and will virtue signal to the cows come home to protect that brand. In their position I’d be on my knee if it was going to protect my multi million pound boot deal. But hey they have so many other avenues to explore to increase this new political activism. They have boot deals with companies that exploit slave labour so they can cancel them. They are playing a world cup in a country that exploits migrant workers and doesn’t have the best record on human rights so they can boycott that.
Think it’s going to happen?
erol wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 11:38 am

Several (white) F1 drivers made the choice to either not ever take the knee or do so once and then stop and the REALITY is there has been little to no 'pile on' and it's not in the news or being talked about on social media on in forums like this and everyone just gets on with it. No need for any culture wars at all. Until it is you start ranting about those who have decided to do it are supporting extreme Marxism.
I thought we were talking about Britain and football? Several teams didn’t take the knee during the Euros. Not relevant.

erol wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 11:38 am

I can honestly say that if HK said this I would not be sending emails to his boot company to cancel him, or talking about it here or anything else. I would think 'fair enough mate, you are entitled to your opinion, do not agree but I personally will not make any problem out of it'.
I believe you. Do you believe that there wouldn’t be an organized pile on by others?
When 1000s of tweets and emails went to his boot company I don’t think he will think I’m ok I’ve got Erols email to cover me.

erol wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 11:38 am


I do not speak for Groucho. He is more than able to do that for himself
No you can stay silent. Win win.
erol wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 11:38 am

But we both know you have no interest here in what the reality is of my views on Marxism are.
No I am VERY interested. I want to know why it is so vial that the brand of BLM needs to remain front and centre of a campaign about racism.



The reality is all you care about is pushing your narratives regardless of what the actual reality is.
erol wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 11:38 am

I know absolutely 100% why I would give my views on Marxism in a thread about Marxism but am not going to do so here in a thread titled 'Euros 2021'.
But no problem bringing up F1 on a thread about Euros 2021?
It’s one sentence Erol. You can put it to bed and cut the ground from under me. I don’t believe the BLM is a Marxist organization because I despise Marxism and wouldn’t want them involved in the campaign if I thought they were.

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Re: Euros 2021

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EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 11:19 am
Erol do you think that people saying All Lives Matter are racist?
After all it is in every ones interests to remove thugs from our police force, no?
Whenever anyone says surely All Lives Matter they are leapt on as being racist
I think people who respond to the words BLM with 'all lives matter' are missing the point. Are making false assumptions. The words are not 'only black lives matter' and never have been. They have never been about the idea that black lives matter more than others. They have always been about black lives matter just as much as any other.

Whenever anyone says BLM you , personally, leap on them for supporting extreme marxism. That is a reality I see.

If someone says to me 'surely all lives matter' in the context of blm, I personal do not call them racist as a response. I explain why that response indicates to me that they have fundamentally misunderstood what is and what is not being said with the words blm. Based on how they respond to that I may or may not go away with an impression of them being somewhere along the spectrum of racist or not.

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Re: Euros 2021

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erol wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 12:07 pm

So you would advise new parents to not name their child Ira ?...........
Blah blah blah. The very pinnacle of strawman arguments which you always criticise.

I can hand on heart say that I would do everything in my power to talk my children out of naming a new grandson Adolf even though I acknowledge that it was only a couple of Adolfs that were evil and no doubt coutless Adolfs did wonderful work. It's a toxic brand.
Ira I wouldn't even make the connection.
erol wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 12:07 pm

BLM is seen as a toxic brand by some people and not by others.
I'll ignore the rest as it's the usual mountain of words to deflect.

OK let's try it this way.
There were a large number of football supporters booing the taking the knee. I think probably more than the authorities acknowledge as the broadcasters muted the booing and enhanced the canned cheering.
I'm not saying it was a majority as I have no way of knowing.
I could give you examples from friends who have been to matches live and say it is getting more booing than is being let on but you would dismiss that as anecdotal evidence.
But it was a significant minority.
Agreed?

So we can only assume if we use your and others logic that they are all racist?
After years we have all but eliminated racist chanting on our terraces but now the racists are back?

They, queue, travel, in some cases pay 1000s of pounds to get a ticket to spread their poison?

Then when they get home having seen 3 terrible penalties by black lads they overwhelmingly send messages of support to those players?

The evidence that thousands of racist messages were sent to black players by English people has been totally debunked.

Personally I'd do whatever I could to get everyone I could onside to fight racism if fighting racism was my priority.
I would do anything I could to engage with those booing. I'd think well what gesture can we do if BLM is the problem here?

But maybe some need BLM front and centre being seen to be heavily involved in the fight against racism?

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Re: Euros 2021

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erol wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 12:19 pm

I think people who respond to the words BLM with 'all lives matter' are missing the point. Are making false assumptions. The words are not 'only black lives matter' and never have been. They have never been about the idea that black lives matter more than others. They have always been about black lives matter just as much as any other.

Whenever anyone says BLM you , personally, leap on them for supporting extreme marxism. That is a reality I see.

If someone says to me 'surely all lives matter' in the context of blm, I personal do not call them racist as a response. I explain why that response indicates to me that they have fundamentally misunderstood what is and what is not being said with the words blm. Based on how they respond to that I may or may not go away with an impression of them being somewhere along the spectrum of racist or not.
Ok let's go at this another way.
The BLM organisation was formed because the narrative was that when black people were being murdered the murderers weren't being prosecuted to the full extent of the law. The inference being that the murderers were being let off because the victims were black. That the police were murdering black people in numbers far higher statistically than white people.
The data on that is at best inconclusive and at worst wrong.

So some say when a thug of a poilice officer murders a black men "hey it is in everyone's interests that this policeman is prosecuted because the public is in danger so we need to see whether his actions were justified." Anyone could be in danger here, all lives matter.
Were anyone to say that they are leapt on as being racist and diminishing the murder because the victim is black and trying to undermine the murder.

What is amusing is when Corbyn has ever been asked whether he condemns anti-semitism, in the Andrew Neil interview and on other occasions, he never simply says yes, obviously, that's a given.
He will always say he condemns all forms of racism and shoe horn Islamaphobia into his answer. Not my opinion check out the interviews.
His version of all lives matter I guess? Never is that condemned by the same mob.
Like I say hypocrisy and double standards.

Now I don't think Corbyn is anti-semitic. He has said some things that could be construed as anti-semitic and carried out some actions that could be construed as anti-semitic but fundamentally I don't think he is. The evidence doesn't favour that view but It's my view.
I do think he is a Marxist and anti American and anti British which naturally leads him to be anti Israeli which then leads him into the territory of anti-semitism and as he isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer he gets himself tied up in knots and expresses some views than can only be seen as anti-semitic.
But I think fundamentally he isn't an anti-semite and isn't a bad man he just supports an evil cult for the best of intentions like many others.

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Re: Euros 2021

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EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 12:14 pm
I stand by the quote.
You stand by the narrative that the England players only took the knee not because they sincerely wanted to but because they felt pressured in to having to do so, even when the Government and countless others were attacking them for doing so ? Go right ahead and stand by that narrative. I thought the first time you pushed this narrative it was ollocks detached from actual reality. I still do.
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 12:14 pm
Would it really harm their brand to have a go at Johnson?
They did not 'have a go a Johnson'. They stood by their convictions in the face of Johnson and countless others having a go a t them, yourself included.
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 12:14 pm
In their position I’d be on my knee if it was going to protect my multi million pound boot deal.
So the footballer you mentioned who is not taking the knee has lost his boot deal has he ? Has anyone anywhere actually lost anything because they chose to not take the knee ? As ever you take reality and then twist it are about tit to fit your narrative. No one has suffered any negative consequence that I know of for simply not wanting to take the knee. Many who have done so have faced real actual negative consequences. That is the reality I see.
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 12:14 pm
I thought we were talking about Britain and football? Several teams didn’t take the knee during the Euros. Not relevant.
It is entirely relevant. Other teams and individuals did not take the knee and no one is slating them or jumping up and down for being racist or any of the other fictions your narrative says would be the consequence for not doing so. Their choice here on this forum is largely respected as just that without mass hoo hah and wringing of hands and culture war attacks. No such things are reserved only for those who have made to choice to do so, with you as one of the primary attack hounds here.
erol wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 11:38 am
I believe you. Do you believe that there wouldn’t be an organized pile on by others?
When 1000s of tweets and emails went to his boot company I don’t think he will think I’m ok I’ve got Erols email to cover me.
I think I am responsible for my actions not those of others. As I think you are responsible for yours. I would not have a problem if HK chose in your fiction to not take the knee. You do have a problem when he does chose to take it, in reality. You think there are not idiots out there tweeting and emailing his boot company because he took the knee ? Have you ? You are the one that appears to have a problem tolerating people having a different opinion to you on taking the knee and what it means and represents, not me.
erol wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 11:38 am
No you can stay silent. Win win.
Everyone uses techniques of rhetoric, worked out and described thousands of years ago. Few however used them as consistently and persistently as you. imo. It is tedious and boring.
erol wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 11:38 am
No I am VERY interested. I want to know why it is so vial that the brand of BLM needs to remain front and centre of a campaign about racism.
QED. So you are not interested on what my actual views are at all. You are only interested in pushing your entirely false narrative that it is 'vital to me that BLM remains a label used to rally people against racism'. That is not 'vital to me' at all. Reality is a lot simpler than that. I oppose the claim and narrative that to use such words means and can only mean you are supporting an extreme marxist organisation because I think the very notion is sheer and utter unmitigated ollocks, in the face of the overwhelming massive real world evidence to the contrary. Because I think making concessions to such utter ollocks is not just unnecessary it is actively dangerous.
erol wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 11:38 am
But no problem bringing up F1 on a thread about Euros 2021?
No. no problem with that at all from where I am sitting and no inconsistency with not wanting to share my views on marxism in this thread.
erol wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 11:38 am
It’s one sentence Erol. You can put it to bed and cut the ground from under me. I don’t believe the BLM is a Marxist organization because I despise Marxism and wouldn’t want them involved in the campaign if I thought they were.
I do not believe that anyone who uses the words BLM or takes the knee is supporting extreme marxism, can only be supporting such. I do not. I have said so countless times. Plainly and clearly. I have explained why I think that. Repeatedly.

Nor do I share your (imo) apparent childish simplistic binary and imo extreme world view that that anything or anyone that can be connected in any way to what you call marxism no matter how tenuous that connection is in reality or whatever the degree may be , is by definition evil and must be opposed and called out and challenged in exactly the same way anyone or anything that could be connected to Nazism should be. I do not even do it with Nazism in the way you appear to want everyone to do it with regards to what you label marxism. For example the royal families connection to Nazism is vastly more real to me than your connection between the England players and support for extreme marxism but I do not go around attacking them and virtue signalling about how I am fighting Nazism whilst doing so. That to me would be extreme.

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Re: Euros 2021

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Four people, yes 4, have been arrested over racist tweets out of millions who watched the final. Racism doesn’t seem to be as rife as some maintain although it’s possible that the numbers could rise.

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Re: Euros 2021

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Post by AFC »

Brazen wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 1:23 pm
Four people, yes 4, have been arrested over racist tweets out of millions who watched the final. Racism doesn’t seem to be as rife as some maintain although it’s possible that the numbers could rise.
It's hard to identify and punish those responsible because of the way social media works. Profiles are completely anonymous, so it's almost impossible to know who the person commenting actually is. Fake names are used, with fake display pics so it's hard to punish people for what they say online, because they can't be identified.

England players were targeted with 12,500 abusive messages during Euro 2020 - from 10,000 social media accounts source The daily mail - a nice right wing rag!

Portsmouth FC have launched an inquiry after their club group chat was found containing racist messages, messages and images, very graphic in content with references to lynching the black players in the England team, and death threats towards the black players.

Its funny how people try to justify racism with black crime or politics on here...otherwise why mention either in a thread on racism?

Wonder what responses would be seen if us Brits woke up to racial abuse and death threats from Turkish Cypriots and local treated it in the same laissez faire attitude as many on here treat racist abuse towards non whites.

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Re: Euros 2021

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erol wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 1:15 pm

For example the royal families connection to Nazism is vastly more real to me than your connection between the England players and support for extreme marxism but I do not go around attacking them and virtue signalling about how I am fighting Nazism whilst doing so. That to me would be extreme.
I'm going to ignore the rest because it is the normal guff where you avoid answering questions while demanding I answer new questions of yours you throw up. All we do is go deeper and deeper down a rabbit hole while you pontificate and ignore my point.

Lets have a look at the Royal family's connection to Nazism. Completely off topic but any chance to undermine an institution eh? Drip drip eh?
I never said you wasn't good.

I'm not a particular fan of The Royal family but this connection would be Prince Phillip's sister/s marrying a Nazi? Prince Phillip who fought in the war against Nazis?
Edward The Eighths undoubted connection to the Nazis? The Edward the Eighth who was run out of town and all but disowned by The Royal Family? By all means put up those couple of pictures of our current Queen doing a sieg heil when a young child.
Not that hard to influence a naive child into doing something stupid. That's what people do, influence the naive. That's why the left are attempting to take over our state schools.
Got anything else?

I don't think every German who voted for the Nazis thought "hmmm here's a new party that is going to terrorise their population, drag the wrold into war and murder millions of people as it clearly says in their manifesto. Whats not to like?"
You'll find extremist parties dress it up a bit better than that as we have examples of today on the other side of the extreme. They also don't have a great record of letting you have a vote when you think this isn't what I thought it would be.

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Re: Euros 2021

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Post by erol »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 12:31 pm
Blah blah blah. The very pinnacle of strawman arguments which you always criticise.

I can hand on heart say that I would do everything in my power to talk my children out of naming a new grandson Adolf even though I acknowledge that it was only a couple of Adolfs that were evil and no doubt coutless Adolfs did wonderful work. It's a toxic brand.
Ira I wouldn't even make the connection.
I do not always criticise the use of rhetorical techniques. The reality is I have said plainly that everyone uses such techniques, including me, but not to the same degree. I have criticised you because you use them to an extreme degree imo relative to myself or any average of posters here. In any case I refute that my comparison was straw man at all. It is exactly the point. You see using the words BLM as equivalent to calling your child adolf and I see it as equivalent to calling your child Ira. That is the essence of our differing opinions. What you see as as toxic as calling a child adolf I see as toxic as calling them ira.
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 12:31 pm
I'll ignore the rest as it's the usual mountain of words to deflect.
Do as you like. Just as with the use of rhetoric techniques, everyone choses what they do and do not want to respond to but only one of us keeps complaining about the other person doing to such a degree whilst making no acknowledgement of doing it themselves.
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 12:31 pm
So we can only assume if we use your and others logic that they are all racist?
Assume what you like. Doing so does not make it true, as if by definition. I have not and do not make such a claim. Saying or implying I have is a straw man argument by the way.

c.f.

you saying 'no one has said racism is not a problem in the UK' and then me pointing out that is actually exactly what you said here and linked to it and quoted and you then saying nothing more on the matter as if it never happened and me letting it go until now, purely as a response to your accusations that I just ignore stuff when it suits me.

As everything past this in this post of your is built on the straw man assumption that I think everyone who boos players taking the knee is racist , I will exercise my right to ignore it

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Re: Euros 2021

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

AFC wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 1:39 pm

England players were targeted with 12,500 abusive messages during Euro 2020 - from 10,000 social media accounts source The daily mail - a nice right wing rag!
Link?
Not that I think you might be paraphrasing or completely changing the article to suit but I'll know for sure once you sent a link? :)

I'm not sure whether it might be this story

https://mol.im/a/9789269

Or this story

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sport ... rseas.html

Both of which point out the scale of the problem and where the majority of this tweets are coming from. The good news is if you don't come from the UAE for example you don't need to be ashamed of your country :)

Also to clarify we are talking racist tweets here, Not Harry Kane is a weasel faced rubbish striker or why is chubby Luke Shaw playing? Not nice. certainly abusive. not racist.

While on the subject of links, any luck with the requested link to
AFC wrote:
Wed 14 Jul 2021 11:52 am

An online petition has been started to have the the England game replayed, signed by 150,000 people or there abouts due to the foul on Saka by Chiellini. The sad thing about the petition, it has a picture of Saka being pulled back Chiellini with the caption being dragged by like he was a slave.

Not a single person who has signed the petition for the game to be replayed has objected to the terminology used. That would be unacceptable were the UK racism free.
I can talk you through how to post a link if you like. And also I'm not saying your making it up or slanting the news but as above I'll know for sure.
AFC wrote:
Wed 14 Jul 2021 11:52 am

Portsmouth FC have launched an inquiry after their club group chat was found containing racist messages, messages and images, very graphic in content with references to lynching the black players in the England team, and death threats towards the black players.
Fantastic I hope they go to prison. My worry is that maybe some are puller a Jussie Smollett here. Because as someone pointed out;
AFC wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 1:39 pm

It's hard to identify and punish those responsible because of the way social media works. Profiles are completely anonymous, so it's almost impossible to know who the person commenting actually is. Fake names are used, with fake display pics

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Re: Euros 2021

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erol wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 2:17 pm

What you see as as toxic as calling a child adolf I see as toxic as calling them ira.
Excellent the floor is yours to condemn Jeremy Corbyn on his consistent support of the IRA.
erol wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 2:17 pm

assumption that I think everyone who boos players taking the knee is racist
Excellent. Most aren't so I guess they will continue to boo the taking of the knee so as to not show support the BLM in any shape or form.
Its a pity because it is distracting from making a gesture against racism but if it involves BLM then it will continue to divide people. But then BLM doesn't seem to be in the business of unifying us.

Looks like we're done just need you to do your bit on Corbyn and the IRA AFC to find a couple of links and we can call an end to this thread.

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Re: Euros 2021

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Post by erol »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 1:55 pm
Lets have a look at the Royal family's connection to Nazism. Completely off topic but any chance to undermine an institution eh? Drip drip eh?
I have no previous history here , or anywhere else, of attacking the Royal Family on any front. So 'at best' a single drip. Still let's not let reality get in the way of a good narrative shall we.

In any case you once again get my entire point ass about tit. My point was I do not think it is reasonable to judge the Royal family, as individuals or a group, based on the real links from them to Nazism, any more than I think it is reasonable to judge those individuals who chose to use the words BLM or take the knee based on (the entirely tenuous imo) links between them and 'extreme marxism'.

Go it yet ?

Understand why I am now going to ignore all your 'guff' about the royal family that comes after this fundamental misunderstanding of yours as to what I was actually saying ?
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 1:55 pm
I never said you wasn't good.
No. Quite the reverse. You say it over and over as part of your narrative that I am some kind of super skilled arch manipulator of people and their opinions that uses all my powers to defend extreme marxism by any means I can. That this is totally divorced from any actual reality does not matter does it ? Drip drip eh indeed !

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Re: Euros 2021

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Crumpy!

Your piece on *fun Maths* was marred only by being on a thread entitled Euros 2021,which is apparently something to do with football.

Regards....

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Re: Euros 2021

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My major argument over the issue is that claiming only a small percentage of football players, the games administrators or fans commit racist acts either before, during or after games and on social media, that it is somehow it's a non-issue. A thing of the past and not a clearly visible the stain on the beautiful game and the wider community that others think it is.

That it has somehow been exaggerated in scale. When from all current accounts, I hold that a 'reasonable person' would come to a different conclusion and that repeatedly downplaying the extent of the issue makes you complicit to the extent of becoming a dishonest agent.

To the person being abused it's not a fractional matter, it is 100% a problem.

It can't be glossed over for the sake of the game we all love.

I'm with Jonathan Pie if we don't call it what it is...

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Re: Euros 2021

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Keithcaley wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 2:53 pm
Crumpy!

Your piece on *fun Maths* was marred only by being on a thread entitled Euros 2021,which is apparently something to do with football.

Regards....
The maths was all wrong - it was Euros 2020.

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Re: Euros 2021

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Groucho wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 3:17 pm
My major argument over the issue is that claiming only a small percentage of football players, the games administrators or fans commit racist acts either before, during or after games and on social media, that it is somehow it's a non-issue.
Knife crime is a much bigger issue. Kills more blacks people than racism any day of the week.
Effects everyone.
I don’t dispute racism is very very hurtful to the recipient like any form of bullying but more hurtful than being stabbed or having to identify your murdered son?
So let footballers use their profile to fight knife crime.
Let them use their profile to fight bullying.
Both effect far more people and also assist in the fight against racism but there is little interest.
But a murder of a black guy thousands of miles away has led to this very well organised campaign?
America has how many awful murders a year?
I am sure with a little digging I can find a horrendous murder in the last week.
Will the players make a gesture then?
Will they make it week after week after week?

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Re: Euros 2021

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erol wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 2:33 pm

Understand why I am now going to ignore all your 'guff' about the royal family that comes after this fundamental misunderstanding of yours as to what I was actually saying ?
No problem mate you crack on with your condemnation of Corbyn and his support of the toxic IRA.

I mean you bought up names he wasn’t actually supporting Ira Gershwin the American lyricist was he?
Was Gerry Adams a big Gershwin fan too?
If I’ve done them both a disservice I apologise, who doesn’t like a show tune?

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Re: Euros 2021

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Post by Groucho »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 3:30 pm
Groucho wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 3:17 pm
My major argument over the issue is that claiming only a small percentage of football players, the games administrators or fans commit racist acts either before, during or after games and on social media, that it is somehow it's a non-issue.
Knife crime is a much bigger issue. Kills more blacks people than racism any day of the week.
Effects everyone.
I don’t dispute racism is very very hurtful to the recipient like any form of bullying but more hurtful than being stabbed or having to identify your murdered son?
So let footballers use their profile to fight knife crime.
Let them use their profile to fight bullying.
Both effect far more people and also assist in the fight against racism but there is little interest.
But a murder of a black guy thousands of miles away has led to this very well organised campaign?
America has how many awful murders a year?
I am sure with a little digging I can find a horrendous murder in the last week.
Will the players make a gesture then?
Will they make it week after week after week?
Both the respect project and kick racism out pre-date BLM by some years - yet here we are. Casual racism is the pre-cursor to escalated patterns of rampant pack behaviour. Not calling it out lets those who perpetrate such crimes feel secure in their animosity.

Call it out - don't pretend it doesn't exist or downplay the hurt.

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Re: Euros 2021

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Groucho wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 3:49 pm


EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 3:30 pm

Both the respect project and kick racism out pre-date BLM by some years - yet here we are. Casual racism is the pre-cursor to escalated patterns of rampant pack behaviour. Not calling it out lets those who perpetrate such crimes feel secure in their animosity.

Call it out - don't pretend it doesn't exist or downplay the hurt.
So we agree football already has in place mechanism to show their opposition to racism and has no need to embrace BLM?

Kick it out dates back to 1993 and Respect dates to 2008. So can we assume that racism in football only started in the early 90s because that isn’t my memory of it.
When racism in football was at its peak the FA ignored it. By the time they started kick it out it had all but vanished from the terraces.
Hence my comment that they have jumped in to bayonet the wounded.
The only thing that stopped racism on the terraces was the skill and dignity of the black players who got on and thrived in a toxic atmosphere with a great deal of panache.
Once every team had black players, many having 3 or 4, even the thickest racist could see that monkey chants would effect their own players as much as the oppositions.
In fact given their apathy on this back in the 70s when they left the likes of Clyde Best to face it on their own I think it is a bit rich for the FA to come in years later and try and get any credit for stopping racism on the terraces.
Football crowds are very tribal. Years ago if the other team had a black player, often their best player they would do whatever it took to put the player off and help their own all white team. Now often their own team’s best player is black and if some bigot started a monkey chant then he would be handed to the stewards by the supporters often not in one piece.
I’m not giving you some long winded sociological reason why racism on the terraces all but disappeared I’m telling you what happened.
Yes there are still some racists in football there sadly always will be tbh but it is not a comfortable place for them to be open about it.
Not anymore.

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Re: Euros 2021

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EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 2:31 pm
Excellent the floor is yours to condemn Jeremy Corbyn on his consistent support of the IRA.
You dropped Corbyn in earlier, did not get a bite, so you toss him out again. It is almost as though you would rather discuss Corbyn than racism in the UK. I mean heaven forbid any one should question your sincerity on how much you really support anti racist actions in the UK, based solely on your own words. What an outrage that would be !

As for the 'demand' that I condemn Jeremy Corbyn on 'his consistent support of the IRA.'

1. I know you will claim it was not a demand but merely and 'invitation' and one that I have repeatedly refused to take up and then start the narrative 'why will I not take that simple opportunity to show everyone how anti the IRA I am' ? I know you will be driven to do this just as I know that none of that matters to me one jot. What matters to me is it feels like a demand and what is more one where by you have first 'led me by the nose, step by step to this point' in order to see how right you have always been all along. At some levels and to not insignificant degrees I actually genuinely find it insulting to my intelligence and patronising in the extreme. Pretty much like the whole 'nice but naive' narrative you are so fond of is. Still I guess its not as bad as the 'nice but dim and naive' narrative aimed at footballers :)

I actually have next to no idea if JC has shown consistent support of the IRA or not. Because I really do not care if he has or if he has or not. I do not and have not divided the world up in to binary 'right' and 'wrong' sides, chosen my side as my guess at what the 'best we can do system' is and then spent all my energies defending or excusing that side whilst relentlessly attacking all others. That my friend is the box you live in. I am not you. I live in an entirely different box :)

I do not judge who I might vote for in such ways. I do so in an entirely different way. I do so based on my perceptions of the personal qualities of the candidates available as people, as human beings. I have actually told you this before when I explained why BJ was just a no go for me entirely regardless of the 'side' he is on. Of course from your box seat and judging me as if I was in the same box as you, you just wrote that off as me supporting my chosen side. Actually I was just expressing an aspect of my identity, of who I am as a person but It is all right, I understand.

Now you talk a good game of 'they (politicians) are all as bad as each other'. Whilst then pretty much exclusively defending your chosen side as 'the best we can do or hope or aspire to' and attacking all others. By any means necessary. I on the other hand would claim I play a good game.

Do you want to know how many times I have voted in general or local election in the 35 years I was resident in the UK and the subsequent 15 I was still allowed to vote there after I left and the 20 years odd here ? Based on my method of selection stated above. Once and that was the first GE in the UK after I obtained the franchise. Even that was more on the basis of you should probably try everything once that is not massively risky or totally abhorrent to you. Yes it was 'labour' if my memory serves. In my life I have voted three times. That GE and the Annan plan referendum here and the Brexit referendum in the UK. That is it.

So we have the 'narrative' (extreme form) of me as Marxist Trotskyist Corbynite Leftist Guardianista activist campaigner knocking on doors and leafletting and protesting and naively supporting and defending proven failed ideologies and who can not see anything but the rightness of them even though everyone knows it can only end in enslavement and misery for all and who uses every means possible to defend their chosen side by any means possible including insincere virtual signalling and insincere faux outrage '. Then we have an actual reality that I have (pretty much) never voted in my life. Seeing any kind of discrepancy there ? :)

I do not vote because I do not see in the era I have lived that the system of voting, given the structure of it and the range of choices available and other reasons as being any sort of effective means of achieving positive societal change. That is the box I live in. As far as I actually do have an 'ideology' it would be best simplified and summed up in a single world as 'progress'. But really it is not an 'ideology' in the broadest most general sense. It is a belief. One of aa very small set of beliefs that I consciously acknowledge I hold regardless and despite any actual evidence. These for me are 'survival beliefs'. Ones I hold regardless of evidence because otherwise if the data showed convincingly otherwise I might, not wanting to be over dramatic, top myself.

I believe in progress. I believe in the possibility that whatever we are doing as individuals and as groups and societies we can do better. That is my 'credo'. That is my 'objective'. Achieving progress. The means I think has a chance of achieving change (you can not have progress without it) is nothing to do with choosing the the best side and certainly not the best side based on 'that's the best we can ever do' guesses and then voting for a side every 4 or 5 years. The means I think has a better chance of securing my objective is through personal choice. I do not think the 'answers' or 'solutions' or 'progress' is in ideologies or political parties or politicians. I think they are and pretty much can only be found and secured in Individuals striving to understand better and making individual choices. As I have 100% control over my choices and as near to zero as dam it over other people's that is where I look for my 'answers', my 'progress'. To use a cliche I try and be the change I want to see. Individually. If I want a kinder world I try and be kinder. If I want to see a more tolerant world I try and be more tolerant. If I want to see a fairer world I try and be more fair. Everything else is just me trying to understand better so I can make better choices.

That is why I look to the likes of MLK and Gandhi in the way I do. I think they achieved the progress they did not because they 'chose the right side' but because of who they were as individuals and the choices they made, as individuals. On a much narrower scale but to a very similar degree I think Southgate achieved the best progress for the England football team I have ever seen in my life because of who he is as an individual and the choices he makes. It's also why I am not holding out much hope for BJ or Starmer or politicians or politics generally as far as it involves choosing a side and voting for it every now and again. I just do not think what I want comes from there. It comes from me and you and him and her and and and and. In the choices we make as individuals.

It is also why when you ask me, in the way that you do, from your box, what I think of Marxism I do not jump at the chance to tell you. Everything is at some level and scale and to degrees but for me, from the box I live in, Marxism is first and foremost a 'scientific theory', a model. A simplification with intent that seeks through such simplification to bring some degree of insight and understanding of some aspect of reality. It is not to me any sort of 'truth' , let alone THE truth. Can not be. It is a thought tool than may or may not bring insight and understanding. That is also why I do not see anything labelled by anyone as 'Marxist' as comparable to anything labelled by anyone as Nazi by the way. Nazism to me is not a scientific theory in the way and degree that Marxism is.

Some of this has perhaps been a bit harsh on you ETS but one, I know you can take it and two, my next post will be about what I really think about you. About who you are. About what I think about why you are ;)

I do think my box is no less real than yours but I do also think my box is probably broader and wider and deeper than yours and thus just on probabilities alone has more chance of having something useful within it. How is that for patronising ?

Take care mate.

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Re: Euros 2021

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Erol so you have no idea about Corbyn and his perceived support of the IRA? Never heard about it? Really?

Not really worth reading the rest of your post mate if you are going to be that evasive.

I guess if there is any danger of you hearing something you don't want to if you cover your ears and run off in the other direction going "lalalalala I'm not listening, I'm not listening."

Then you can truthfully hand on heart say "no I never heard that."

I guess it works for you.

Sorry to keep trying to pin you down to give a straight answer it must be very uncomfortable for you.

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Re: Euros 2021

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EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 4:15 pm
I’m not giving you some long winded sociological reason why racism on the terraces all but disappeared I’m telling you what happened.
Yes there are still some racists in football there sadly always will be tbh but it is not a comfortable place for them to be open about it.
Not anymore.
One of the biggest reasons for racism on the terraces declining is not improved attitudes - it is camera surveillance and the knowledge that it's not that easy to avoid detection and identification - but that has largely served to move the problems outside the stadium and into the street and online - where genuine football fans do not witness the problem to the same extent. Don't kid yourself that racism has all but disappeared just because you no longer witness it personally.

It's still there, it's still corrosive and it's still a stain on football. I say on football because my experience of other sports (cricket and rugby) is that nothing like the same levels of racially charged antagonism exists.

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Re: Euros 2021

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Groucho wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 6:28 pm

One of the biggest reasons for racism on the terraces declining is not improved attitudes - it is camera surveillance and the knowledge that it's not that easy to avoid detection and identification - but that has largely served to move the problems outside the stadium and into the street and online - where genuine football fans do not witness the problem to the same extent. Don't kid yourself that racism has all but disappeared just because you no longer witness it personally.

It's still there, it's still corrosive and it's still a stain on football. I say on football because my experience of other sports (cricket and rugby) is that nothing like the same levels of racially charged antagonism exists.
Total and utter owl dung of the highest grade.
You know there were cctv cameras at the grounds back in the 70s right? This is not cutting edge technology.

Sure the fact that I now didn’t witness thousands of people openly chanting racist poison Like they were a few years earlier doesn’t mean they weren’t thinking it to themselves. I’m not a mind reader. But I took the evidence of my own eyes and ears to think things are looking up.

I mean you even heard racist chanting when there weren’t any black players on the pitch in your alleged couple of games at West Ham in your latest episode of stuff that never happened.

As for identification and detection we have now established that the racial abuse to the 3 players numbers a maximum of 300 as opposed to your hoped for tens of thousands as was the original narrative from the anonymous social media.
Tens of thousands of messages of support but let’s brush over them.

You must be absolutely devastated. I honestly feel sorry for you and feel your pain.
I mean maybe England isn’t fundamentally racist? What a nightmare for you guys.

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Re: Euros 2021

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Groucho wrote:
Thu 15 Jul 2021 6:28 pm

I say on football because my experience of other sports (cricket and rugby) is that nothing like the same levels of racially charged antagonism exists.
Translation I don’t really know sod all about football as evidenced by me trying to pretend I witnessed racial barracking of black players wven when someone proved that none were playing in the years you stated.

Would you like me to link to the threads why I proved you were making it up?

You probably follow rugby and cricket which in comparison with football are minor sports. Club rugby and country cricket would do well to draw more than 5000 if John Lennon and Elvis were alleged to be alive and playing. It’s like bringing up Curling for comparison.

Incidentally how many English black players have come through and are playing regular county cricket or club rugby union?
Anything like the number of black players in professional football?

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