Renewable energy a challenge to natural gas

How to save energy and money in North Cyprus: Solar Panels, Wind Turbines - find out all you need to know about renewable energy.

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Renewable energy a challenge to natural gas

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Post by Groucho »

http://cyprus-mail.com/2017/10/29/rise- ... tural-gas/

Interesting article... Surely it has to come.

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Re: Renewable energy a challenge to natural gas

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Post by waddo »

Interesting indeed but I can not see Cyprus ever making a transition to natural gas, more so in the North where they can't even get the water through the pipes without major leaks everywhere. I shudder to think of natural gas pipe laying here, new pipe in, no pressure check, gas turned on, fage end out the window, one tower flat block vanished in an instant!!! Just hope that Cyprus continues down the solar power route at least that is fairly safe.
Make happy those who are near and those who are far will come!

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Re: Renewable energy a challenge to natural gas

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Post by Groucho »

Several points...

Gas was only used as a representative fossil fuel... the same logic applies to all forms of fossil fuel energy and equally to nuclear. Which let's face it has a parlous record of safety given that the number of nuclear meltdowns within our lifetimes is starting to mount up. Let's please not kid oursleves that nuclear is safe and clean - we've been sold that pup since the fifties.

The south specifically and the rest of the oil industry are desperately seeking to sink wells for oil and natural gas in the waters off Cyprus... why when there is an abundant supply of sunshine?

If you read the report you will see that renewable energy is cheaper as a start-up than a new fossil fuel revenue stream.

Ecologically, it's the right way to go. The sun is going nowhere for the foreseeable future unlike fossil fuels.

We could do away with the reliance on so much heavy diesel and nearly all the pollution that it causes.

Lastly and more importantly oil and envy of oil have led to war....

Given that the rest of the world is ramping up renewable energy. why should the whole of Cyprus be largely avoiding it and continuing to invest in old dirty technology?

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Re: Renewable energy a challenge to natural gas

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Post by Aitchie »

Groucho
“Given that the rest of the world is ramping up renewable energy. why should the whole of Cyprus be largely avoiding it and continuing to invest in old dirty technology?”
Because that old dirty fossil fuel is in demand worldwide and can kick start an economy by being sold for profit. Solar is only really viable as a local means of producing electricity, if someone can come up with a way to export sunshine then Cyprus will be quids in.

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Re: Renewable energy a challenge to natural gas

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Post by Groucho »

Aitchie, That is totally wrong. The power of the sun in the form of electricity can be transported over long distances as it is already.

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Post by Aitchie »

Groucho
The power of the sun is exported all over the world in the form of fruit and vegetables produced in warm climates, the same can be said about lots of things however, electricity transported over long distances loses part of its efficiency due to cable resistances, hence the need to transport at higher voltages than the end user requires, it would take a lot of solar panels to produce a (for example) 5,500Volt supply to transport it over a few 10's of kilometres, however using the sun to produce steam which in turn would drive a generator, that is a different kettle of fish! it would take a lot of focussed mirrors to do that, however there are such systems in use in other countries. Again the amount generated would only be reasonably used in country.

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Post by Keithcaley »

Aitchie wrote:... it would take a lot of solar panels to produce a (for example) 5,500Volt supply to transport it over a few 10's of kilometres,..
Oh no it wouldn't! - That is a completely false statement.

Any electricity produced from solar panels is converted to AC to make it suitable for normal domestic or industrial use (with the possible exception of solar powered pool pumps etc.).

Once you've got AC to deal with, you simply use a transformer to increase the voltage, thereby reducing the amperage requirement and the transmission losses.

The same principles of power transmission apply, regardless of whether the electricity is produced from fossil or renewable sources.

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Post by Aitchie »

Keithcally
How can you possibly say that this is a “completely false statement” it would take around 450 12V solar panels to produce 5500 volts to me that is a lot of solar panels. Your system uses a different method to come to the same ends, but you cannot say that my statement is “completely false”.
If you look at the context of the thread which is Gas v’s Solar my post was focussing on solar technology as an exporting medium as the gas produced here would be, as such your method to convert to AC for transportation purposes would not be viable. As we are on an island a sub-sea cable would be necessary to reach foreign shores, your system of AC transportation by these means would fail to deliver the payload, DC transmission is the only way. So as I was saying:
It would take a lot of solar panels to produce a 5500 volt supply to transport it over 10’s of Kilometres.

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Post by Keithcaley »

Aitchie wrote:...It would take a lot of solar panels to produce a 5500 volt supply to transport it over 10’s of Kilometres.
If anyone ever wanted to try to transport DC over 10's of Kilometers (and, in my opinion, nobody in the power distribution business would want to do so...) then a simple DC-DC converter can convert any voltage - even 1.5 volts, let alone 12 volts - to tens or hundreds of thousands of volts.

You don't actually need 'a lot' of solar panels connected in series to produce, say, 5500 volts - just one solar panel can be used to produce any AC or DC voltage that is required.

In the UK, where solar panels are widely used in domestic installations, the DC output from the panels (as many or as few as the occupier can afford) is converted to 240 Volts AC, and any unused capacity is fed back into the National Distribution Grid, where a portion of it may be stepped up to tens of thousands of volts, to be transported around the Country, or across the Channel into the French National Grid. They don't need to connect a lot of solar panels in series to produce high voltages suitable for long distance power transmission... - that is the part of your premise which is false!

As I have just explained, it is entirely feasible and practicable to transport electricity produced from solar panels as well as other renewable sources over long distances. To state that it is impracticable due to the number of panels that would be required is a false statement.

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Post by Aitchie »

Keithcaly
Your statement:
“If anyone ever wanted to try to transport DC over 10's of Kilometers (and, in my opinion, nobody in the power distribution business would want to do so...)”
Thank you for the lesson in Electrical transmission, however if you want to know who will want to transport electricity in DC format, I can tell you now that Turkey will want to when they come to supply North Cyprus with it, because it’s the only way to get it across the water.
My point in the previous reply was not to accuse you of being wrong with your view, but merely to point out that because my view differs from yours it does not make that view “a completely false statement”.
You may think that over 450 solar panels is not a lot of panels to use, that is your prerogative, however it does not make my view “completely false”
Your ending statement:
“As I have just explained, it is entirely feasible and practicable to transport electricity produced from solar panels as well as other renewable sources over long distances. To state that it is impracticable due to the number of panels that would be required is a false statement.”
I get the impression that you think a single 70 Watt solar panel can be transformed to a 3 phase HVAC level for transportation and then be able to support a community with electricity in some far away land, if this is the case you are deluding yourself, you only get out of it what you put in, so at the user end of your system (using loss free 100% efficient equipment) you would still only be able to light a light bulb!

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Post by Keithcaley »

Groucho, I think that Aitchie is just trying to wind us up

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Post by Piper »

It’s a fact that Turkey has discovered a natural gas field off its south coast and including an area off the karpaz
drilling to start early 2018.

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Post by Groucho »

Piper - it comes as no surprise... keeping up with the accelerating pace of renewable energy technology and the rapidly reducing costs of implementing such schemes seems to be 'beyond their ken'. Let's face it - joined-up thinking is not their forte. It doesn't take a genius to work out that a solar farm linked to a hydro-electric installation could provide pollution free power.

A solar farm the size of 39 football pitches (pitches not stadiums) can supply enough power for population of one million. Leaving plenty of surplus power to pump water uphill during the day to run down into turbines to create night time energy. All totally scaleable... Need more power? Simply add more collection.

When was the last time someone's health was adversely affected by solar panels?

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Post by Aitchie »

Groucho
I agree with you it would be good for the environment to have a system built like the one you have laid out, I would question the hydro side of it as being a step too far as this would surely have an environmental cost in its construction. I am of the opinion that this would require a lot of solar panels (although some would disagree). I would promote something similar to the option below, and use the revenue from the exported gas finds to pay for it.


• Andasol solar plant is located near Granada in Spain and provides electricity for up to about 500,000 people
• Farm has a capacity of 150 megawatts of electricity and uses 620,000 curved mirrors to harness solar power
• Sunlight bounces off the mirrors to heat a synthetic oil in a tube and energy drives a turbine, generating electricity
• Some energy also goes into a heat reservoir, which is a tank containing thousands of tonnes of molten salt that can drive the turbines after sundown, or when it is overcast, for about seven-and-a-half hours

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Post by Keithcaley »

Groucho wrote:...When was the last time someone's health was adversely affected by solar panels?
While I'm generally in favour of using renewable energy resources, everything in the garden isn't totally lovely, as this quote from the World Watch Institute notes: -

"Many of the solar panels that now adorn European and American rooftops have left behind a legacy of toxic pollution in Chinese villages and farmlands." http://www.worldwatch.org/node/5650

Other reports from respected bodies such as the IEEE and National Geographic underline the issue. The use of photo-voltaics for power generation may be cleaner overall than burning fossil fuels, but it is not without its downside, and we need to consider the impact on the Countries where these things are manufactured with scant regard to Human Health or to the Environment...

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Post by Keithcaley »

Aitchie wrote:.. I am of the opinion that this would require a lot of solar panels (although some would disagree)...
Aitchie, I only disagreed with your assertion that it would take a lot of 12 volt solar panels to produce the Voltage necessary for long distance transmission of electrical power, rather than the Wattage required.

To make it worthwhile, and to produce enough energy to make it feasible, it's the total Wattage that needs to be considered. I've seen estimates that an area approximately equivalent to 40 football pitches is required to produce 1 Megawatt of electricity from PV solar panels. That's quite a lot

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Post by Groucho »

Keithcaley wrote:
Groucho wrote:...When was the last time someone's health was adversely affected by solar panels?
While I'm generally in favour of using renewable energy resources, everything in the garden isn't totally lovely, as this quote from the World Watch Institute notes: -

"Many of the solar panels that now adorn European and American rooftops have left behind a legacy of toxic pollution in Chinese villages and farmlands." http://www.worldwatch.org/node/5650

Other reports from respected bodies such as the IEEE and National Geographic underline the issue. The use of photo-voltaics for power generation may be cleaner overall than burning fossil fuels, but it is not without its downside, and we need to consider the impact on the Countries where these things are manufactured with scant regard to Human Health or to the Environment...
The photo-voltaic cells of the past have been surpassed by quite some margin in terms both performance and clean credentials... no surprise then I did not mention them. The latest tech out-performs the 'old' photo-voltaic cells in costs too... I say old but in the scheme of things the are quite recent innovation I guess. Anyway as fact often it is preceded by fiction and it seems that new ways exist.

As far as the damage to communities is concerned of course choosing those with no HSE to enforce standards is reprehensible and should not be repeated..

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