High commission and Brexit document from ROC

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High commission and Brexit document from ROC

Post by Panchocat »

They have put the document on their web site. Free movement for UK residents and continued residency.
Guessing that perhaps this might be a time when the whole island being in the EU is ignored.
Let's hope my cynicism is proven wrong

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Re: High commission and Brexit document from ROC

Post by Keithcaley »

Could you explain what you mean please, because I don't understand what you are implying...

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Re: High commission and Brexit document from ROC

Post by waddo »

A link would have been nice - just spent 30 minutes and not found anything that has not been there for some time. Is it on their web site or am I cursed and it is on that face book thing?
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Re: High commission and Brexit document from ROC

Post by dippersgirl »

all about UK citizens in the ROC, nothing else mentioned

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Re: High commission and Brexit document from ROC

Post by Panchocat »

Yes Dippersgirl but the whole of the island is in the EU with the Aquis suspended in the North. I was just commenting that this will perhaps be a time when the "Whole of the island of Cyprus" is not deemed to be in the EU........
Waddo yes it is on their Facebook page which you can google.
Keithcaley I am sure you knew what I was inferring but in case not it is now mentioned above.

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Re: High commission and Brexit document from ROC

Post by Keithcaley »

Pancho cat, as you didn't supply a link, and as I'm not psychic, I had no idea what you were talking about!

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Re: High commission and Brexit document from ROC

Post by waddo »

Thanks come-on-Aylin! Panchocat, sorry, don’t subscribe to face book.
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Re: High commission and Brexit document from ROC

Post by Panchocat »

Sorry KC I thought the thread title might have made it clear.
Must remember to be more specific with links.
Have a nice evening.

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Re: High commission and Brexit document from ROC

Post by Mowgli597 »

Panchocat wrote:Sorry KC I thought the thread title might have made it clear.
Must remember to be more specific with links.
Have a nice evening.
KC’s not good with page titles. Just like me and Forum sections. Bit of a wind up merchant methinks!

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Re: High commission and Brexit document from ROC

Post by tingtang »

Well let me be the first to say that is excellent news which will put a lot of minds to rest,

Many thanks for highlighting this Panchocat.

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Re: High commission and Brexit document from ROC

Post by Keithcaley »

Panchocat - I understood the thread title ok, it was your closing remark about cynicism that wasn't entirely clear - and having read the link posted by COA, which references ROC residency and ROC proof of residency forms as evidence I cannot believe that anyone could imagine for a second that it would apply to anyone living in what the ROC describe as 'stolen property' in the 'occupied areas'...

Mowgli597, you may think that I am a 'wind up merchant', and I might think that you are a TWAT, but I'm too polite to actually say it

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Re: High commission and Brexit document from ROC

Post by Panchocat »

KC You choose to miss the point that the whole of the Island of Cyprus is deemed to be in the EU.
No I am aware of what the document says about ROC residents, the point I was making was about the EU and the whole island position. Good night.
I am adding no more except to say Mowgli you could be right there

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Re: High commission and Brexit document from ROC

Post by Keithcaley »

I am sure that everyone reading this is aware that although the whole of Cyprus is considered to be In the EU, the Aquis Commutaire is suspended in the North, which basically means that EU Law cannot be applied in that part of the island over which the ROC do not have effective control. Nor does the TRNC itself accept that ROC has any jurisdiction over the territory of the TRNC.

To live here and accept that we are in a totally separate State, and yet think that there is even the remotest possibility of (favourable) ROC legislation applying to Foreign Residents of TRNC is akin to 'Having your cake and eat in it' - I would go further than that, it demonstrates a total lack of understanding of the situation, which you have never displayed in the past...

Hence my confusion over your professed 'cynicism', which I now take to be simply a contentious remark for the sake of effect, rather than a sincerely held point of view.

How am I doing?

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Re: High commission and Brexit document from ROC

Post by Deniz1 »

Enough rudeness please stop it!

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Re: High commission and Brexit document from ROC

Post by Keithcaley »

Deniz1 wrote:Enough rudeness please stop it!
Who are you addressing?

Who do you think is being rude? - and why do you take it upon yourself to moderate perceived 'rudeness' ? - It's not your job is it? - or have you just been promoted to Mod status without us noticing?

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Re: High commission and Brexit document from ROC

Post by PoshinDevon »

Please keep on topic.

Should you have an issue with a Kibkom member try using the PM or email function.

Thanks
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Re: High commission and Brexit document from ROC

Post by PoshinDevon »

An interesting read for sure and it seems a useful document for current EU residents/visitors especially those from the U.K. who reside or wish to visit the ROC. However, as far as those that have chosen to reside/travel to and from the TRNC possibly via the ROC it certainly is not clear.

Whilst this has been discussed on a previous topic, I have a feeling come next March it still will not be clear whether flying into the ROC and crossing to the TRNC or even flying into the TRNC and visiting/flying out of the ROC will be allowed. Along with of course the opportunity to visit the ROC for shopping, leisure etc.

We are certainly thinking of flying into Ercan next April to be on the safe side, unless of course things are much clearer beforehand.

Whatever, we will adapt to abide by the regulations that are in force. No point in getting to excited about it.
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Re: High commission and Brexit document from ROC

Post by Mowgli597 »

Keithcaley wrote:Mowgli597, you may think that I am a 'wind up merchant', and I might think that you are a TWAT, but I'm too polite to actually say it
Probably guilty as charged, yer honour!

But be careful!

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Re: High commission and Brexit document from ROC

Post by wanderer »

The EU like Nelson will use their bling eye when examining any issue with the TRNC and EU citizens
Just as they did when allowing the ROC to join
RoC joined under the threat from Greece throwing their toys out of the EU pram and the newly united Germany who were maxing out Greece's credit card with german goods agreed to the demands

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Re: High commission and Brexit document from ROC

Post by Keithcaley »

Mowgli597 wrote:
Keithcaley wrote:Mowgli597, you may think that I am a 'wind up merchant', and I might think that you are a TWAT, but I'm too polite to actually say it
Probably guilty as charged, yer honour!

But be careful!
It's a fine line that we tread!

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Re: High commission and Brexit document from ROC

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Re: High commission and Brexit document from ROC

Post by waz-24-7 »

This is clearly directed at persons with UK passports visiting or residing in the ROC.

Currently UK citizens have EU passports and so have right of passage through and into the ROC.

In April next year that same EU status is forfeited and the ROC administration is able and likely to hinder passage of UK citizens intent on traveling into the TRNC.

Of course Ercan via Turkey remains open. Most certainly free access to the TRNC for UK citizens will be harder and more expensive as routes and schedules become less available.

The overall longer term effect in my opinion is that the TRNC will become less of a destination of choice for UK citizens due to the increased difficulty of access and a risk of hinderance should the ROC take an antagonistic approach to transient UK visitors.

Without the protections of being EU citizens I fear also a higher level of isolation for UK citizens residing on Cyprus.

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Re: High commission and Brexit document from ROC

Post by PoshinDevon »

waz-24-7 wrote:This is clearly directed at persons with UK passports visiting or residing in the ROC.

Currently UK citizens have EU passports and so have right of passage through and into the ROC.

In April next year that same EU status is forfeited and the ROC administration is able and likely to hinder passage of UK citizens intent on traveling into the TRNC.

Of course Ercan via Turkey remains open. Most certainly free access to the TRNC for UK citizens will be harder and more expensive as routes and schedules become less available.

The overall longer term effect in my opinion is that the TRNC will become less of a destination of choice for UK citizens due to the increased difficulty of access and a risk of hinderance should the ROC take an antagonistic approach to transient UK visitors.

Without the protections of being EU citizens I fear also a higher level of isolation for UK citizens residing on Cyprus.
Firstly no one knows what will happen post 29th March 2019. The ROC might make things more difficult, they might not. There is of course a transition period following the 29th March date, this may provide an opportunity for things to continue as they are at present or it may not.

Not everything turns out to always be a worst case scenario.

If the ROC do decide to make things difficult then we will have to adapt and if that means flying in or out via Ercan or not crossing to the south so be it.
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Re: High commission and Brexit document from ROC

Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

PoshinDevon wrote:

Not everything turns out to always be a worst case scenario.

If the ROC do decide to make things difficult then we will have to adapt and if that means flying in or out via Ercan or not crossing to the south so be it.

How devastated will the remainers be if the world as we know it doesn't end after Brexit.

Most of the problems they highlight will cost the countries implementing them millions to billons to prove a point. At exactly the same time as they are having to find more money or more likely claim less money to cover the shortfull from us leaving.

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Re: High commission and Brexit document from ROC

Post by Mowgli597 »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:How devastated will the remainers be if the world as we know it doesn't end after Brexit.
Surely you mean the Brexiteers?

After all, isn’t that the point? To change the current state of affairs (i.e. the world as we know it) into something, let’s just say, “different”?

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Re: High commission and Brexit document from ROC

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Mowgli597 wrote:
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:How devastated will the remainers be if the world as we know it doesn't end after Brexit.
Surely you mean the Brexiteers?

After all, isn’t that the point? To change the current state of affairs (i.e. the world as we know it) into something, let’s just say, “different”?
Probably a poor choice of words but what I meant was that I am getting a little bit sick of people that seem to hope that the UK economy crashes and everyone’s life will suffer because the majority chose to leave the EU.
We don’t always vote in the party of my choice but I do hope for the best whatever government is voted in. I don’t want to see Britain crash to be able to say I told you so.

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Re: High commission and Brexit document from ROC

Post by Mowgli597 »

Perhaps “hope” isn’t the right word either.

Try “fear”?

I don’t think anyone, whichever way they voted, thought that two years down the line, with six months to go, the UK government still don’t have an agreed plan for an exit strategy. Maybe that’s why there’s a growing clamour for another referendum on the exit terms: at least this time people might actually have an idea of what they were voting for and the likely consequences of their vote.

Just saying like.

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Re: High commission and Brexit document from ROC

Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

Mowgli597 wrote:Perhaps “hope” isn’t the right word either.

Try “fear”?

I don’t think anyone, whichever way they voted, thought that two years down the line, with six months to go, the UK government still don’t have an agreed plan for an exit strategy. Maybe that’s why there’s a growing clamour for another referendum on the exit terms: at least this time people might actually have an idea of what they were voting for and the likely consequences of their vote.

Just saying like.
Yes fear as in project fear.
Its brinkmanship from the EU who cant be seen to give us an easy time.

As for the growing clamour for another referendum it was growing from about four minutes after they lost the last one.
Having said that it is the EU way to insist on another referendum if they dont get the right answer the first time. Personally I like democracy so thats why I'm not a fan of the EU

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Re: High commission and Brexit document from ROC

Post by waddo »

"Democracy"? Perhaps you would like to read this little article then: https://cyprus-mail.com/2018/09/16/peop ... er-brexit/
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Re: High commission and Brexit document from ROC

Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

waddo wrote:"Democracy"? Perhaps you would like to read this little article then: https://cyprus-mail.com/2018/09/16/peop ... er-brexit/
I think it was Churchill who said No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.

Generally articles such as those from professors buried in academia who spout on about the 1% or the 6% usually have the underlying tone of promoting communism. They believe in people power and the democracy of the committed but it actually means organisations such as Militant or Momentum hijacking a party machine. They are a committed minority who demand to be heard as it is democratic to entertain other views. When they have hijacked a constituency or now a whole party they seem less interested in allowing those with opposing views to speak.
Corbyn votes against his party 500 times but now any dissent is threatened with deselection.

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Re: High commission and Brexit document from ROC

Post by waz-24-7 »

Post edited.Off topic.

Upon the Cyprus issue as per the opening post. What is certain (not a wait and see scenario) UK citizens will lose their European status and privileges that this brings. Freedom of travel is one. The ROC are therefore granted a useful tool by which they can inflict damage and hinderance upon UK supporters of the TRNC.
Wait and see, of course, given historical ROC attitudes towards the TRNC and its supporters. I think it very reasonable to expect the worst.
What continues to amaze me is that many users of this forum actually voted for this loss of privilege. Why?

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Re: High commission and Brexit document from ROC

Post by waddo »

As we are all in the land of who can make the nearest guess to what might happen in the future and as it has already - over the years - become very plain that the British High Commission takes little to no interest in what will happen to it's British subjects who reside in the Northern part of Cyprus - they use the good old get out clause of putting a warning on their web site so they can say "we told you so" totally forgetting about freedom of choice and movement - Also painfully obvious to all who care to see is that the RoC will use any chance at all of going world wide with any item they think will further their cause to rid this Island of the Turkish population.

That being the case it was nice to see that the RoC had already devised a plan on how to deal with British subjects once and if they ceased to become EU citizens. As for what becomes of British subjects who reside in the Northern part of Cyprus, that is already known - life will continue on as normal, no help will be forthcoming from High Commissions, no assistance will be available from the RoC (this because they already have a plan in place and laws for controlling immigration and entry into their country for non-Europeans. Therefore, this has become a bit of a pointless thread as most do once the "Brexit" word has been used.

What interests me is the continuing dialogue about oil/gas fields, UN participation on the Island and the USA. Promoting a question: If the North became a full EU member in the future, how many non-EU British subjects would stay and how many would apply for EU citizenship?
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Re: High commission and Brexit document from ROC

Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

waz-24-7 wrote:
Post edited.Off topic.

Upon the Cyprus issue as per the opening post. What is certain (not a wait and see scenario) UK citizens will lose their European status and privileges that this brings. Freedom of travel is one. The ROC are therefore granted a useful tool by which they can inflict damage and hinderance upon UK supporters of the TRNC.
Wait and see, of course, given historical ROC attitudes towards the TRNC and its supporters. I think it very reasonable to expect the worst.
What continues to amaze me is that many users of this forum actually voted for this loss of privilege. Why?
Well obviously you are hoping for the worst. Maybe many users of the forum voted for what they thought was best for the country rather than narrow self interest.

Worry away about what the ROC do but it illustrates half the problem with the Brexit negotiations and sadly the UK in general.
Somewhere along the way we lost our backbone.
If a country messes with us then we should retaliate. The ROC is an easy one to deal with, if they inflict damage and hinderance on any UK citizen then our government makes it hard as possible for its citizens to visit that country.

I don't think anyone could argue that Trump is a buffoon who plays to the cameras. But he is acting how the bulk of ordinary Americans want the leader to be, strong and looking out for their interests. They got a little sick of the Clintonesque New Yorker, chin stroking, concensus, PC politics.


Britain needs to man up and be strong. We are one of the EU's best customers, we need to remember that for them to lose that customer as well as their contributions will bring hardships on them as well. On countries such as the ROC and Greece we could very easily send them into a depression.


Being very civilised to the EU is taken as weakness so lets be strong.

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Re: High commission and Brexit document from ROC

Post by elizabeth »

If,as Junker has said,aircraft from the UK will not be able to land in EU countries then people holidaying or visiting holiday homes in ROC will be affected just the same as the people traveling to TRNC through Larnaca/ Paphos.
Nobody can really have any idea of what will happen after Brexit, if there is anyone who can see into the future please would you let me know the winning lottery numbers for this weekend.

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Re: High commission and Brexit document from ROC

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elizabeth wrote:If,as Junker has said,aircraft from the UK will not be able to land in EU countries then people holidaying or visiting holiday homes in ROC will be affected just the same as the people traveling to TRNC through Larnaca/ Paphos.
Nobody can really have any idea of what will happen after Brexit, if there is anyone who can see into the future please would you let me know the winning lottery numbers for this weekend.
I can assure you if Britain continues to be weak they will be bullied and if they show a backbone they wont. I can guarantee you that.
But thats as easy as telling you that I can guarantee you that the winning lottery numbers will be from 1 to 50.

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Re: High commission and Brexit document from ROC

Post by waz-24-7 »

A Noble attitude from previous few posts.
I detect a real "fight them on the beaches" line of thought.

Please lets not forget it is the UK that has instigated the divorce proceedings.
We cannot expect a bed of roses in this type of situation. There will be no winners only losers.

This is a not a "man up" scenario like some street brawl.
I do not think the UK is being weak at all but the government under Mrs May certainly identifies , like myself ,the clear risk of loss and hardship for the vast majority of UK citizens and workers.

The undeniable fact is that UK citizens will lose their European status along with the rights and privileges that come with that position.
Now certainly we must wait and see what level of increased difficulty this will present. I have indicated my own views on travel to the ROC and TRNC.
That will be certainly a major issue in my view given the animosity show by ROC toward supporters of TRNC.
"Wait and see" certainly, but be prepared.

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Re: High commission and Brexit document from ROC

Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

waz-24-7 wrote:A Noble attitude from previous few posts.
I detect a real "fight them on the beaches" line of thought.

Please lets not forget it is the UK that has instigated the divorce proceedings.
We cannot expect a bed of roses in this type of situation. There will be no winners only losers.

This is a not a "man up" scenario like some street brawl.
I do not think the UK is being weak at all but the government under Mrs May certainly identifies , like myself ,the clear risk of loss and hardship for the vast majority of UK citizens and workers.

The undeniable fact is that UK citizens will lose their European status along with the rights and privileges that come with that position.
Now certainly we must wait and see what level of increased difficulty this will present. I have indicated my own views on travel to the ROC and TRNC.
That will be certainly a major issue in my view given the animosity show by ROC toward supporters of TRNC.
"Wait and see" certainly, but be prepared.
I'm just pointing out that appeasement and weakness will be capitalised on by our European 'friends.'
We should not bow to threats along the lines of any country in the world can land planes but not the ex-member of the EU, Britain.

Did you ever wonder why after blocking our entry to the EU for years, France all of a sudden wanted us to join? Its not like we become fast friends, since we joined they havent been over affectionate have they?
Dont suppose it had anything to do with having arranged the funding for the Common Agricultural policy they realised they needed someone else to help pay for it?

As for the ROC with one and a quarter of a million tourists coming from the UK, which is a third of their tourists and lord knows how much of their GDP I'm sure we can influence them into doing a deal.

Its not jingoistic fight them on the beaches, its we are negotiating and if we appear weak or conflicted the EU will bulldoze us.

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Re: High commission and Brexit document from ROC

Post by waz-24-7 »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
waz-24-7 wrote:A Noble attitude from previous few posts.
I detect a real "fight them on the beaches" line of thought.

Please lets not forget it is the UK that has instigated the divorce proceedings.
We cannot expect a bed of roses in this type of situation. There will be no winners only losers.

This is a not a "man up" scenario like some street brawl.
I do not think the UK is being weak at all but the government under Mrs May certainly identifies , like myself ,the clear risk of loss and hardship for the vast majority of UK citizens and workers.

The undeniable fact is that UK citizens will lose their European status along with the rights and privileges that come with that position.
Now certainly we must wait and see what level of increased difficulty this will present. I have indicated my own views on travel to the ROC and TRNC.
That will be certainly a major issue in my view given the animosity show by ROC toward supporters of TRNC.
"Wait and see" certainly, but be prepared.
I'm just pointing out that appeasement and weakness will be capitalised on by our European 'friends.'
We should not bow to threats along the lines of any country in the world can land planes but not the ex-member of the EU, Britain.

Did you ever wonder why after blocking our entry to the EU for years, France all of a sudden wanted us to join? Its not like we become fast friends, since we joined they havent been over affectionate have they?
Dont suppose it had anything to do with having arranged the funding for the Common Agricultural policy they realised they needed someone else to help pay for it?

As for the ROC with one and a quarter of a million tourists coming from the UK, which is a third of their tourists and lord knows how much of their GDP I'm sure we can influence them into doing a deal.

Its not jingoistic fight them on the beaches, its we are negotiating and if we appear weak or conflicted the EU will bulldoze us.
Thank you ETS
I don't think for a moment the UK negotiating team will be giving anything away.
I think it crucial that our trading relationship with the EU is salvaged to the best possible advantage. Myself I want to remain in the single market economy. The EU will block this if other conditions are not agreed to (freedom of movement in particular)

The EU states have remained friends and that is a massive positive of the Union given the massive loss of life that we have seen in European wars in only the last century. Peace prevails thank goodness.

Upon the ROC entry deal. Yes for sure an entry deal makes absolute sense. What however is most important is that there is no fundamental right of entry as a European passport holder. The loss of rights and privileges significantly raises the risk of antagonism towards non EU supporters of the TRNC. In particular UK citizens who will become freshly excluded form such privileges.

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Re: High commission and Brexit document from ROC

Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

waz-24-7 wrote:
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
waz-24-7 wrote:A Noble attitude from previous few posts.
I detect a real "fight them on the beaches" line of thought.

Please lets not forget it is the UK that has instigated the divorce proceedings.
We cannot expect a bed of roses in this type of situation. There will be no winners only losers.

This is a not a "man up" scenario like some street brawl.
I do not think the UK is being weak at all but the government under Mrs May certainly identifies , like myself ,the clear risk of loss and hardship for the vast majority of UK citizens and workers.

The undeniable fact is that UK citizens will lose their European status along with the rights and privileges that come with that position.
Now certainly we must wait and see what level of increased difficulty this will present. I have indicated my own views on travel to the ROC and TRNC.
That will be certainly a major issue in my view given the animosity show by ROC toward supporters of TRNC.
"Wait and see" certainly, but be prepared.
I'm just pointing out that appeasement and weakness will be capitalised on by our European 'friends.'
We should not bow to threats along the lines of any country in the world can land planes but not the ex-member of the EU, Britain.

Did you ever wonder why after blocking our entry to the EU for years, France all of a sudden wanted us to join? Its not like we become fast friends, since we joined they havent been over affectionate have they?
Dont suppose it had anything to do with having arranged the funding for the Common Agricultural policy they realised they needed someone else to help pay for it?

As for the ROC with one and a quarter of a million tourists coming from the UK, which is a third of their tourists and lord knows how much of their GDP I'm sure we can influence them into doing a deal.

Its not jingoistic fight them on the beaches, its we are negotiating and if we appear weak or conflicted the EU will bulldoze us.
Thank you ETS
I don't think for a moment the UK negotiating team will be giving anything away.
I think it crucial that our trading relationship with the EU is salvaged to the best possible advantage. Myself I want to remain in the single market economy. The EU will block this if other conditions are not agreed to (freedom of movement in particular)

The EU states have remained friends and that is a massive positive of the Union given the massive loss of life that we have seen in European wars in only the last century. Peace prevails thank goodness.

Upon the ROC entry deal. Yes for sure an entry deal makes absolute sense. What however is most important is that there is no fundamental right of entry as a European passport holder. The loss of rights and privileges significantly raises the risk of antagonism towards non EU supporters of the TRNC. In particular UK citizens who will become freshly excluded form such privileges.
To be perfectly honest the threat of European wars ended with the Paris Treaty in 1951.
Therein lies the problem with the EU imo.

I don't think for the voters of the UK it as simple as being in favour or against the EU, I believe most don't care for it but are frightened but what will happen if we leave it. Generally people are comfortable with the status quo, they hate change.

The problem with the EU is there is no status quo, it is constantly changing and even if you are 100% happy with it now you can guarantee the planned 'project' for how the EU is in 20 years time will be vastly different from today.
Those in the EU bring in many changes which they know would be unpalatable to the people of Europe by stealth.
If you read some of the assurances we were given by our politicians in the referendum in 1975 you now know those to be complete lies.

I guarantee that if tomorrow we agreed to a second referendum and voted to stay in that the price the EU would extract would be us joining the Euro. Britain joining the Euro was never stopped it was only delayed.


As for the ROC if Britain is strong then it would be very simple to get what we want. Removing a significant proportion of the GDP of a country with an already weak economy will I'm sure bring about an about turn. But if you are weak you get bullied. That's life

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Re: High commission and Brexit document from ROC

Post by waz-24-7 »

ETS said:
As for the ROC if Britain is strong then it would be very simple to get what we want. Removing a significant proportion of the GDP of a country with an already weak economy will I'm sure bring about an about turn. But if you are weak you get bullied. That's life


Yes indeed. However its not visitors to ROC that is the issue. Its through traffic going north into TRNC.
If the UK insisted on recognition of the TRNC. The ROC would close the doors and lock them I think.

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Re: High commission and Brexit document from ROC

Post by jofra »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote: To be perfectly honest the threat of European wars ended with the Paris Treaty in 1951....
While the GREAT majority of the following would be dismissed as "clashes" or "incidents" (by those not affected or involved), nevertheless these were in Europe...
1953 Uprising in East Germany
1956 Uprising in Poznań
1956 Hungarian Revolution
1956–1962 Operation Harvest
1958 Opération Corse
1958 First Cod War
1959–2011 Basque conflict
1967 Greek coup d'état
1968 Warsaw Pact invasion of Czechoslovakia
1968–1998 The Troubles
1970–1984 Unrest in Italy
1972 Bugojno group
1972–1973 Second Cod War
1974 Turkish invasion of Cyprus
1974 Carnation Revolution
1975–1976 Third Cod War
1975 Portuguese coup d'état attempt
1976–present Corsican Insurgency
1981 Spanish coup d'état attempt
1988–1994 Nagorno-Karabakh War
1989 Romanian Revolution
1990–1991 Soviet attacks on Lithuanian border posts
1991 January Events
1991 The Barricades
1991 Ten-Day War (Slovenia)
1991–1992 Georgian war against Russo-Ossetian alliance
1991–1993 Georgian Civil War
1991–1995 Croatian War of Independence
1992 Transnistria War
1992 East Prigorodny Conflict
1992–1993 War in Abkhazia
1992–1995 Bosnian War
1993 Cherbourg incident
1993 Russian constitutional crisis
1994–1996 First Chechen War
1995–1996 Imia/Kardak military crisis
1997–1998 Cyprus Missile Crisis
1997 Albanian civil war of 1997
1998–1999 Kosovo War
1998–present Dissident Irish Republican campaign
1998 Six-Day War of Abkhazia
1999 War of Dagestan
1999–2009 Second Chechen War
1999–2001 Insurgency in the Preševo Valley

21st century

2001 Georgia, Kodori crisis
2001 Insurgency in the Republic of Macedonia
2004–2013 Unrest in Kosovo
2004 unrest in Kosovo
2008 unrest in Kosovo
2011–2013 North Kosovo crisis
2004 Georgia, Adjara crisis
2004 Georgia, South Ossetia skirmishes
2006 Georgia, Kodori crisis
2007–2015 Civil war in Ingushetia
2008 Mardakert skirmishes
2008 Russia–Georgia war
2009–2017 Insurgency in the North Caucasus
2013–2014 Euromaidan and pro-Russian unrest in Ukraine
2014 Crimean crisis
2014–present War in Donbass
2015 Kumanovo clashes
2016 Nagorno-Karabakh clashes
2018 Gyunnyut clashes

...Those who died will not (cannot) argue with you - but consider the rise/increase of "nationalism" parties and politics throughout Europe (and even Trump's "America First"?) - and what was that about "National Socialism (German: Nationalsozialismus), more commonly known as Nazism" - and wasn't there something described as a "genocide carried out by units of Bosnian Serb forces under the command of army general Ratko Mladic, known as the Butcher of Bosnia"......

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Re: High commission and Brexit document from ROC

Post by waz-24-7 »

Thank you Jofra
It has always been my line.
That any sort of political union that binds and maintains an alliance between cross border entities is a firm basis for PEACE.

The departure of the UK from the UNION is the tinder box for a potential return to a divided power hungry and nationalistic break up of the currently peaceful alliance within the EU.

The same nationalistic views have become rather apparent within many posts on this forum. I detect possibly a military background within several that reflects the training for conflict that service persons experience.

Peace in our time should be top of any political agenda. This often gets neglected when nationalistic agenda items rise to the top.

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Re: High commission and Brexit document from ROC

Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

jofra wrote: While the GREAT majority of the following would be dismissed as "clashes" or "incidents" (by those not affected or involved), nevertheless these were in Europe...
……………………………
...Those who died will not (cannot) argue with you - but consider the rise/increase of "nationalism" parties and politics throughout Europe (and even Trump's "America First"?) - and what was that about "National Socialism (German: Nationalsozialismus), more commonly known as Nazism" - and wasn't there something described as a "genocide carried out by units of Bosnian Serb forces under the command of army general Ratko Mladic, known as the Butcher of Bosnia"......
My point was if the sole and worthy purpose of the EU was to stop European wars in particular Germany having a habit of deciding to kick France’s backside every 30 years that was taken care of by the Treaty of Paris which shared the production of coal and steel, the key-resources which had been central to the two World Wars. Since then we have had what, another ten treaties and no end in sight.
As for the long list of ‘conflicts’ you have listed I am struggling to see the point you are making. By the way I had a fight on a school trip to France around the time of the cod wars and later a row in Spain you missed.
Is your point that the creation of the EU has stopped wars in which case the long list doesn’t seem to aid your case? The Irish troubles have been going on for 400 years on and off. The majority of your examples would be best described as civil unrests or conflicts between disparate peoples in the same nation. I can’t see how increasing a union of different nations is logically liable to reduce potential conflicts. Yugoslavia would be a case in point. Welding different nations into one entity wasn’t a huge success there in the long term but for longer than the EU has been going it did seem to go fine.
As for this view that anyone who voted Brexit is some nationalist or extreme right winger and therefore a significant proportion of the British population must there for be some kind of Nazis I can only point to the rise of the far right in France and Germany the pin up boys of the EU. If you care to look at how much the popular vote for the BNP has risen over the last few post July 7th years when you would expect it to rise, it has gone up approximately zero. In France and Germany the far right is now a big player in their political scene and a big part of their popularity is their anti EU stance.
Last edited by EnjoyingTheSun on Thu 04 Oct 2018 5:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: High commission and Brexit document from ROC

Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

waz-24-7 wrote:Thank you Jofra
It has always been my line.
That any sort of political union that binds and maintains an alliance between cross border entities is a firm basis for PEACE.

The departure of the UK from the UNION is the tinder box for a potential return to a divided power hungry and nationalistic break up of the currently peaceful alliance within the EU.

The same nationalistic views have become rather apparent within many posts on this forum. I detect possibly a military background within several that reflects the training for conflict that service persons experience.

Peace in our time should be top of any political agenda. This often gets neglected when nationalistic agenda items rise to the top.

Re the whole nationalistic right wing bit have a look at the popular vote for the British National Party and compare it to Alternative for Germany, Le Pen’s Front National party or National Rally in France, Lega in Italy, The Danish People's Party? In Holland the VVD party only defeated The Party for Freedom by donning many of the same clothes and rhetoric.

Trump gets brought up a fair bit by the left. The man is a complete buffoon but make no mistake it was the liberal left ignoring legitimate concerns from ordinary people that got him voted in. Ditto the rise of the above parties in Europe.


Everyone wants peace in our time but sadly peace is maintained by strength not weakness. Which brings me back to the ever changing EU.
I would have little confidence in the safety of our country and our right to peace if our security relied on an EU army rather than a British army. Because be under no illusions that is what is coming down the pipeline, we will not have our own army. That is the obvious next logical step, why would we all need the expense of our own services when we can save money by having a communal army.
So then if a country is aggressive to us we would have to rely on France, Germany and others to decide if we are worth sending their people to die for us. Personally I don't have much confidence.

Nope no military experience for me, so you are right again there. How do you do it!

I was in the scouts for a while in the seventies if that counts. I left when what the scout master needed me to do to get a badge seemed physically impossible and a bit messy

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Re: High commission and Brexit document from ROC

Post by Mowgli597 »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote: So then if a country is aggressive to us we would have to rely on France, Germany and others to decide if we are worth sending their people to die for us. Personally I don't have much confidence.
Isn’t that called NATO?

Or are we leaving that too to Make Britain Great Again? You know, like in the two World Wars when we didn’t have to rely on anyone else coming to die “for us” and which “we” won entirely by ourselves?

Oh sorry. My mistake. That’s was the 1966 World Cup

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Re: High commission and Brexit document from ROC

Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

Mowgli597 wrote:
EnjoyingTheSun wrote: So then if a country is aggressive to us we would have to rely on France, Germany and others to decide if we are worth sending their people to die for us. Personally I don't have much confidence.
Isn’t that called NATO?

Or are we leaving that too to Make Britain Great Again? You know, like in the two World Wars when we didn’t have to rely on anyone else coming to die “for us” and which “we” won entirely by ourselves?

Oh sorry. My mistake. That’s was the 1966 World Cup
I thought it was remains position that we had to be part of the EU or we would be defenceless? That now changed?
Remind me how many NATO troops fought in the Falklands?
How many allies did we have from the fall of France until Germany invaded Russia. How many would we have had if Germany hadent invaded Russia or declared war on America?
You’re not allowed to pick any Commonwealth btw as the EU made us pretty much abandon them.
So you are advocating we don’t have an independent army etc?
Feel secure with an EU army?

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Re: High commission and Brexit document from ROC

Post by waddo »

And just what has any of the above got to do with Brexit and the ROC? OK, so "you" want to leave the EU, we all get it! Get back on topic please.
Make happy those who are near and those who are far will come!

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Re: High commission and Brexit document from ROC

Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

waddo wrote:And just what has any of the above got to do with Brexit and the ROC? OK, so "you" want to leave the EU, we all get it! Get back on topic please.
I didn't bring up European wars I just answered.

It's interesting that if an opinion people agree with goes off topic it gets a pass, but if someone counters that is off topic and needs to be shut down.

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