Brexit - Sensible thoughts on a highly charged topic

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Re: Brexit - Sensible thoughts on a highly charged topic

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

I voted leave have zero military background but have watched a few war films so I’m guessing that’s close enough?

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Re: Brexit - Sensible thoughts on a highly charged topic

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

Mowgli597 wrote:Raab admits to not understanding importance of EU trade.
https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2018/1108/1009607-brexit/

‘Britain’s Brexit minister has come under criticism after admitting he "hadn't quite understood the full extent" to which UK trade was "reliant on the Dover-Calais crossing".
A politician with little idea of what they are talking about. Big surprise.
An advert for less government not more and getting out of the EU should take a big layer of government from our lives.

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Re: Brexit - Sensible thoughts on a highly charged topic

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waz-24-7 wrote:
The sharing of research in, medicine, science, aviation, exploration including space travel , satellite technology, other technologies for the betterment of the whole.
You’re going to have to give me some examples of this.
I don’t doubt there are a lot of committees with a lot of very expensive civil servants promoting all of the above but let’s hear some results. If we have landed a Belgium on the moon don’t be shy it’s a proud if pointless moment

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Re: Brexit - Sensible thoughts on a highly charged topic

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Post by waddo »

"I voted leave have zero military background but have watched a few war films so I’m guessing that’s close enough?"

Yes, that will be a good enough reason to vote to leave - in the films everything always turns out right!
Make happy those who are near and those who are far will come!

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Re: Brexit - Sensible thoughts on a highly charged topic

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

waddo wrote:
Yes, that will be a good enough reason to vote to leave - in the films everything always turns out right!
No one could ever call me a natural optimist but I do know that whenever an 'expert' predicts a disaster it usually ends up fine.

When I get on a plane I have no doubt whatsoever that the pilot knows a lot more about flying the plance than me but if he keeps telling me that we are going to land in Ercan and we keep landing in Eritrea after a few trips I'm going to have some serious doubts as to his competence.
For those who want to keep shelling out their hard earned good luck to you but don't be offended if I don't.

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Re: Brexit - Sensible thoughts on a highly charged topic

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Post by Mowgli597 »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Mowgli597 wrote:Raab admits to not understanding importance of EU trade.
https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2018/1108/1009607-brexit/

‘Britain’s Brexit minister has come under criticism after admitting he "hadn't quite understood the full extent" to which UK trade was "reliant on the Dover-Calais crossing".
A politician with little idea of what they are talking about. Big surprise......
But. This is the man negotiating the UK’s exit from the EU.

And aren’t you the gentleman who insists that he doesn’t want faceless bureaucrats in Brussels deciding on the future of his country??

Pardon me if I see a disconnect somewhere.

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Re: Brexit - Sensible thoughts on a highly charged topic

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

Mowgli597 wrote:
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Mowgli597 wrote:Raab admits to not understanding importance of EU trade.
https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2018/1108/1009607-brexit/

‘Britain’s Brexit minister has come under criticism after admitting he "hadn't quite understood the full extent" to which UK trade was "reliant on the Dover-Calais crossing".
A politician with little idea of what they are talking about. Big surprise......
But. This is the man negotiating the UK’s exit from the EU.

And aren’t you the gentleman who insists that he doesn’t want faceless bureaucrats in Brussels deciding on the future of his country??

Pardon me if I see a disconnect somewhere.
If you read or quote me in full you might not be so confused.

Namely;
'An advert for less government not more and getting out of the EU should take a big layer of government from our lives.'

Raab isn't the most talented politician I've ever seen, ditto May.
We could throw it over to the other side a Corbyn-Abbott double act?

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Re: Brexit - Sensible thoughts on a highly charged topic

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Post by waz-24-7 »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
waz-24-7 wrote:
The sharing of research in, medicine, science, aviation, exploration including space travel , satellite technology, other technologies for the betterment of the whole.
You’re going to have to give me some examples of this.
I don’t doubt there are a lot of committees with a lot of very expensive civil servants promoting all of the above but let’s hear some results. If we have landed a Belgium on the moon don’t be shy it’s a proud if pointless moment
If you would like to google there are numerous.
https://www.controlrisks.com/our-thinki ... -of-brexit
https://www.birmingham.ac.uk/research/p ... rexit.aspx
https://www.theguardian.com/science/pol ... sh-science
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brexit_an ... technology

83% of scientists in favor of staying in the Union. The reason is abundantly clear. Better together.

Perhaps you might offer some support on how the UK will be more secure and better outside the EU research co operations.
This is not Bureaucracy. This is a real loss of important scientific research, co operations. Including medical, the latest European GPS cooperation. The list goes on. Our talented young scientists and researchers have a new diminished field of opportunity as the UK and Europe diverge or become more insular.

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Re: Brexit - Sensible thoughts on a highly charged topic

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

waz-24-7 wrote:
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
waz-24-7 wrote:
The sharing of research in, medicine, science, aviation, exploration including space travel , satellite technology, other technologies for the betterment of the whole.
You’re going to have to give me some examples of this.
I don’t doubt there are a lot of committees with a lot of very expensive civil servants promoting all of the above but let’s hear some results. If we have landed a Belgium on the moon don’t be shy it’s a proud if pointless moment
If you would like to google there are numerous.
https://www.controlrisks.com/our-thinki ... -of-brexit
https://www.birmingham.ac.uk/research/p ... rexit.aspx
https://www.theguardian.com/science/pol ... sh-science
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brexit_an ... technology

83% of scientists in favor of staying in the Union. The reason is abundantly clear. Better together.

Perhaps you might offer some support on how the UK will be more secure and better outside the EU research co operations.
This is not Bureaucracy. This is a real loss of important scientific research, co operations. Including medical, the latest European GPS cooperation. The list goes on. Our talented young scientists and researchers have a new diminished field of opportunity as the UK and Europe diverge or become more insular.
Waz,

Sorry I didn’t make myself clear.
I 100% believe you that the EU is spending money like a drunken sailor I’m asking for results?
I want to know how those billions have enriched our lives?

We seem to have this whole EU thing backside about face.
How are we going to replace the European Court of Human Rights when we leave the EU? Etc.

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Re: Brexit - Sensible thoughts on a highly charged topic

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Post by waz-24-7 »

Drunken sailor spending.,,, And the UK guardians on spending are all noble doers of no wrong. Rather a small short term reason to divorce I think.
Given you appear no longer to live in the UK. You may not be so familiar with what changes and what privileges and benefits have emerged via Union fund assistance and opportunities for advancements in medicine, technology, research, security et al.

Yes the UK will need to replace numerous institutions, protocols, legislation.
This will not come cheap and the formation, administration, up keep will take many many years and cost 100s of billions.
Or perhaps you would scrap everything and move towards secondary status in the World.

Please also do not forget.
In order to trade with our nearest trading gateway, (Europe) all the product and trading protocol will need to be supported.

Perhaps a new government department " European trade department" Should cover that with a few staff and associated salaries and a government minister of course.

Or we could ditch the damn Europeans as idiots and simply trade with the rest of the worlds idiots. It's easy. isn't it?

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Re: Brexit - Sensible thoughts on a highly charged topic

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Post by PoshinDevon »

Waz.....

Calling the rest of the world idiots is harsh methinks.

Japan, America, China, Australia, NZ, Canada........not sure they are what you would class as idiots. Plus I haven’t mentioned South America, Africa or India.

Not bad people to trade with.
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Post by waz-24-7 »

Posh
The comment was cited against other posts that portrayed the European parliament as full of idiots.
Of course the world is not full of idiots. I known this full well.
The notion that we should leave the EU based on some "idiots" based in Brussels is what is shocking and concerning.
Democracy will eventually ensure these idiots are removed from positions of governance.

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Re: Brexit - Sensible thoughts on a highly charged topic

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Post by waddo »

"When I get on a plane I have no doubt whatsoever that the pilot knows a lot more about flying the plance than me but if he keeps telling me that we are going to land in Ercan and we keep landing in Eritrea after a few trips I'm going to have some serious doubts as to his competence. "

Quite agree with you! Just look at what happened the last time the UK left the EU and you have based your leave on that?

The people voted the government into power and what happens after that is up to the government - the people then have no more say in the matter and just take whatever crumbs are left over from the table. There goes your hard earned unless of course you leave and take it all with you!

So, you think it right and proper that, even though there is a general surge from all sides to have another vote now that the "Deal" is being made known, that the government is saying NO, take it on the chin and be happy???
Make happy those who are near and those who are far will come!

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

waddo wrote:
Quite agree with you! Just look at what happened the last time the UK left the EU and you have based your leave on that?

The people voted the government into power and what happens after that is up to the government - the people then have no more say in the matter and just take whatever crumbs are left over from the table. There goes your hard earned unless of course you leave and take it all with you!

So, you think it right and proper that, even though there is a general surge from all sides to have another vote now that the "Deal" is being made known, that the government is saying NO, take it on the chin and be happy???
All the doomsayers said not joining the Euro would be a disaster. We survived better than those that joined.
In 40 odd years of membership I'm just not seeing the benefits.
Sure our government isn't perfect and I'd like to see a lot less government there too but you have to start somewhere.

Ok here's a question back. Do you want to abolish our Parliament, Civil Service, Army, courts and justice system etc and to totally use the facilities of Europe?
Let's be fair anything else is a duplication of effort and cost.

We will have no elections in our country apart from to vote for our MEP. The voting system we will use will be whatever our neighbours choose, proportional representation looks favourite.

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Re: Brexit - Sensible thoughts on a highly charged topic

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

waz-24-7 wrote:Drunken sailor spending.,,, And the UK guardians on spending are all noble doers of no wrong. Rather a small short term reason to divorce I think.
Our government can waste money with the best of them but we have to start somewhere.
Well if I was a bigamist and was struggling to afford two wives I think cutting the more expensive one might be wisest!
waz-24-7 wrote: Given you appear no longer to live in the UK. You may not be so familiar with what changes and what privileges and benefits have emerged via Union fund assistance and opportunities for advancements in medicine, technology, research, security et al.
I left the UK three months before the Brexit vote so you are telling me although I didn't see much benefit in 40 odd years all the goodies came in those three months??

You know the fund assistance? You know it's our money right? It doesn't come from the EU money tree.
How it works is we chip in say £1 billion for research and after a chunk goes in admin and to a few of the countries who have their hand out all the time, £750 million comes back to us.

Don't get me wrong if I was a country that was new to democracy and they said join and we will give you free money every year I'd seriously think about joining.

waz-24-7 wrote:

Yes the UK will need to replace numerous institutions, protocols, legislation.
This will not come cheap and the formation, administration, up keep will take many many years and cost 100s of billions.
Or perhaps you would scrap everything and move towards secondary status in the World.
Actually I think you'll be surprised but how little we do need to replace. We have a pretty good judicial system so the European Courts can go. and so on.
There has been a lot created which is a duplication of what we have which has been created to replace what we have. So unless you wish to totally remove any power to govern ourselves as is the end game for the EU. We eliminate the duplication and keep our own. I'll be devastated to miss out on the EU space programme but I'll live.

waz-24-7 wrote:
Please also do not forget.
In order to trade with our nearest trading gateway, (Europe) all the product and trading protocol will need to be supported.

Perhaps a new government department " European trade department" Should cover that with a few staff and associated salaries and a government minister of course.
Well we have a Department for International Trade, think they might be up to it?
waz-24-7 wrote:
Or we could ditch the damn Europeans as idiots and simply trade with the rest of the worlds idiots. It's easy. isn't it?
I'm not saying ditch the Europeans I'm just saying that in 50 years time I don't want my great grandchildren to wake up in a province of a new country unless they have clearly choosen to do so.
Last edited by EnjoyingTheSun on Sun 11 Nov 2018 11:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Brexit - Sensible thoughts on a highly charged topic

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

waz-24-7 wrote:Posh
The comment was cited against other posts that portrayed the European parliament as full of idiots.
Of course the world is not full of idiots. I known this full well.
The notion that we should leave the EU based on some "idiots" based in Brussels is what is shocking and concerning.
Democracy will eventually ensure these idiots are removed from positions of governance.
Well I've had my old job changed by Waz so I shouldn't be surprised that he puts words in my mouth.

I've never thought the guys in Brussels are idiots they are pulling in £300,000 a year in expenses and their parliament protects them from any auditing. We are the idiots.

As for democracy, do you count open government as part of democracy?

Care to discuss the history of the 2006 Galvin report?

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Re: Brexit - Sensible thoughts on a highly charged topic

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Post by waz-24-7 »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
waz-24-7 wrote:Posh
The comment was cited against other posts that portrayed the European parliament as full of idiots.
Of course the world is not full of idiots. I known this full well.
The notion that we should leave the EU based on some "idiots" based in Brussels is what is shocking and concerning.
Democracy will eventually ensure these idiots are removed from positions of governance.
Well I've had my old job changed by Waz so I shouldn't be surprised that he puts words in my mouth.

I've never thought the guys in Brussels are idiots they are pulling in £300,000 a year in expenses and their parliament protects them from any auditing. We are the idiots.

As for democracy, do you count open government as part of democracy?

Care to discuss the history of the 2006 Galvin report?

Hmmm,
Perhaps we should consider getting rid of governance of all types. EU, UK parliament, royal family, house of commons, local councils,
Think of the money we would save!!
Where do you draw the line. Anarchy is on your cards … possibly.

As to Galvin.
I'm afraid that politicians and administrators the world over are prone to corruptive and self gain types of protocol.. Brussels has not patent upon this type of behavior.

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waz-24-7 wrote: Hmmm,
Perhaps we should consider getting rid of governance of all types. EU, UK parliament, royal family, house of commons, local councils,
Think of the money we would save!!
Where do you draw the line. Anarchy is on your cards … possibly.
Again putting words in my mouth. I said less government not no government.

Surely you will agree there is little to be gained by duplication so which would you rather cut, UK government or EU government?
waz-24-7 wrote:
As to Galvin.
I'm afraid that politicians and administrators the world over are prone to corruptive and self gain types of protocol.. Brussels has not patent upon this type of behavior.
No but I think the Marta Andreasen affair shows they are much better at covering their tracks and not being held accountable.

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Re: Brexit - Sensible thoughts on a highly charged topic

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Post by waz-24-7 »

ETS
I cannot support your line that it is Brussels that has led , or in part led, you to the isolationism that you clearly favor.

Today in the remembrance celebration in Paris the President; in front of Mr Putin and Mr Trump plus other dignitaries from Europe. Warned about the rise of nationalism and what that has historically been a consequences in terms of loss of life. This is the threat in part fueled by the UK and BREXIT.

It is this rise of nationalism that should concern you far more than the corruption that you bring to the debate . Your point is unlikely to lead to war and or massive loss of life as experienced in the bad old days of an ununified Europe.

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Post by waz-24-7 »

ETS asked:
Surely you will agree there is little to be gained by duplication so which would you rather cut, UK government or EU government?

The UK has a government, Parliament and democracy.
The EU of which the UK is a member state participates in the laws and regulations within the Union.
Now, most certainly neither institution is perfect and the EU cries out to be reformed. Mr Cameron failed in Europe and failed when he put forward a BREXIT referendum.

The positives with regard to peace and trade within Europe is not worth or indeed a viable proposition to walk away from.
The UK government by enlarge plus many many others given most recent public surveys realize this.

My view is its now too late and we must knuckle down and prepare for the hit over many years to come.

I hope that peace will prevail on this planet but given the global shift in nationalism I think the path is bleaker than it was just 2 years ago.

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waz-24-7 wrote:ETS
I cannot support your line that it is Brussels that has led , or in part led, you to the isolationism that you clearly favor.
Not being sarcastic here, is English not your first language Waz or is it a case of no matter what I say you'll decide that's what I did say and come up with a point you want to make?

Point out where I said I favour isolationism?
waz-24-7 wrote:
Today in the remembrance celebration in Paris the President; in front of Mr Putin and Mr Trump plus other dignitaries from Europe. Warned about the rise of nationalism and what that has historically been a consequences in terms of loss of life. This is the threat in part fueled by the UK and BREXIT.

It is this rise of nationalism that should concern you far more than the corruption that you bring to the debate . Your point is unlikely to lead to war and or massive loss of life as experienced in the bad old days of an ununified Europe.

As wanting to retain sovereignty isn't nationalism I'm not concerned.
The rise of facism in the other EU countries does concern me as that seemed to have a bit to do with the last World War but you seem to be turning a blind eye to that.

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waz-24-7 wrote:ETS asked:
Surely you will agree there is little to be gained by duplication so which would you rather cut, UK government or EU government?

The UK has a government, Parliament and democracy.
The EU of which the UK is a member state participates in the laws and regulations within the Union.
Still the same question which laws are we chopping?

I don't think the penny has dropped has it? The EU project will not end until Europe is a country and not a continent and the UK will be a state in that country.
We will have no government, our government will be in Brussels. We will have a few councils in the UK but no power.

Your eyes are open to that, are they?
You know that the EU as it is now is not how it intends to ultimately be?
There won't be picking and choosing here.

Do you want to lose sterling and have the Euro? Ultimately there will be no choice.
You wish to lose our own armed services and have a Euro army?

It amazes me that so many people see conspiracies around every corner but they seem to turn a blind eye as to what is happening in front of their faces.

If you define wanting to be a nation as nationalism then I'm guilty but I think you'll find that the majority of the people in Europe wish to retain their identities.

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Post by waz-24-7 »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
waz-24-7 wrote:ETS asked:
Surely you will agree there is little to be gained by duplication so which would you rather cut, UK government or EU government?

The UK has a government, Parliament and democracy.
The EU of which the UK is a member state participates in the laws and regulations within the Union.
Still the same question which laws are we chopping?

I don't think the penny has dropped has it? The EU project will not end until Europe is a country and not a continent and the UK will be a state in that country.
We will have no government, our government will be in Brussels. We will have a few councils in the UK but no power.

Your eyes are open to that, are they?
You know that the EU as it is now is not how it intends to ultimately be?
There won't be picking and choosing here.

Do you want to lose sterling and have the Euro? Ultimately there will be no choice.
You wish to lose our own armed services and have a Euro army?

It amazes me that so many people see conspiracies around every corner but they seem to turn a blind eye as to what is happening in front of their faces.

If you define wanting to be a nation as nationalism then I'm guilty but I think you'll find that the majority of the people in Europe wish to retain their identities.

ETS
I think you may be getting a trifle confused.
I am a REMAIN supporter and consequently have no desire to "chop"
I believe you are in the "chop" brigade and so perhaps you have your answer already. Which laws do you want to chop?
I think you are very wrong to think that the UK government will cease to exist. Every member state has its own government and there is no speak of what you portray. In fact its a rubbish thought without foundation.

The UK has never had an intent to give up sterling. Again there has been no speak about any such forfeit.

My view is that the increase in nationalistic views across the world is no good thing. I believe you are wrong that the majority support such a notion. You clearly think it is a good thing. I wonder how you feel the world will be a better place as a result of this divergence of co operation and harmony.
I expect you are familiar with the history of both world wars that centered around exactly the nationalism that you preach and want to return to.
National pride and nationalism are quite different in my book.
I am immensely proud of my ancestry and country. I have a desire to remain closely linked with our European neighbors as we have been for many years. I feel that the co operation and understanding that I have enjoyed will in time possibly revert to the days pre 1914 and 1939

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Re: Brexit - Sensible thoughts on a highly charged topic

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waz-24-7 wrote:
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
waz-24-7 wrote:ETS asked:
Surely you will agree there is little to be gained by duplication so which would you rather cut, UK government or EU government?

The UK has a government, Parliament and democracy.
The EU of which the UK is a member state participates in the laws and regulations within the Union.
Still the same question which laws are we chopping?

I don't think the penny has dropped has it? The EU project will not end until Europe is a country and not a continent and the UK will be a state in that country.
We will have no government, our government will be in Brussels. We will have a few councils in the UK but no power.

Your eyes are open to that, are they?
You know that the EU as it is now is not how it intends to ultimately be?
There won't be picking and choosing here.

Do you want to lose sterling and have the Euro? Ultimately there will be no choice.
You wish to lose our own armed services and have a Euro army?

It amazes me that so many people see conspiracies around every corner but they seem to turn a blind eye as to what is happening in front of their faces.

If you define wanting to be a nation as nationalism then I'm guilty but I think you'll find that the majority of the people in Europe wish to retain their identities.

ETS
I think you may be getting a trifle confused.
I am a REMAIN supporter and consequently have no desire to "chop"
I believe you are in the "chop" brigade and so perhaps you have your answer already. Which laws do you want to chop?
I think you are very wrong to think that the UK government will cease to exist. Every member state has its own government and there is no speak of what you portray. In fact its a rubbish thought without foundation.

The UK has never had an intent to give up sterling. Again there has been no speak about any such forfeit.

My view is that the increase in nationalistic views across the world is no good thing. I believe you are wrong that the majority support such a notion. You clearly think it is a good thing. I wonder how you feel the world will be a better place as a result of this divergence of co operation and harmony.
I expect you are familiar with the history of both world wars that centered around exactly the nationalism that you preach and want to return to.
National pride and nationalism are quite different in my book.
I am immensely proud of my ancestry and country. I have a desire to remain closely linked with our European neighbors as we have been for many years. I feel that the co operation and understanding that I have enjoyed will in time possibly revert to the days pre 1914 and 1939
I think many people can see this as a distinct possibility and it is very concerning. People, particularly at this time of remembrance are completely intent on preserving peace in our time. Peace in Europe has never been more secure and the Union within Europe is a sure way to preserve this.

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waz-24-7 wrote:ETS
I cannot support your line that it is Brussels that has led , or in part led, you to the isolationism that you clearly favor.
I'm sorry I don't say what you need to spout your next point but please stop putting words in my mouth to justify your 'points.'

waz-24-7 wrote: Warned about the rise of nationalism and what that has historically been a consequences in terms of loss of life. This is the threat in part fueled by the UK and BREXIT.
It is this rise of nationalism that should concern you far more than the corruption that you bring to the debate . Your point is unlikely to lead to war and or massive loss of life as experienced in the bad old days of an ununified Europe.
I think you need to define what you think nationalism is because like isolationism I don't think you understand what it is.
The European part of the Second World War was caused by facism, the rise of which you continue to brush off.

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waz-24-7 wrote: I think you may be getting a trifle confused.
I am a REMAIN supporter and consequently have no desire to "chop"
I believe you are in the "chop" brigade and so perhaps you have your answer already. Which laws do you want to chop?
No I think I realise you are a remoaner.
So you want to have two sets of laws and departments, one UK, one European duplicating each others efforts?
Well it should certainly create jobs
waz-24-7 wrote:
I think you are very wrong to think that the UK government will cease to exist. Every member state has its own government and there is no speak of what you portray. In fact its a rubbish thought without foundation.

The UK has never had an intent to give up sterling. Again there has been no speak about any such forfeit.
Trust me if the UK if any country intends to stay in the EU then ultimately they will be in the Euro. The project doesn't work if some are in it and some are out of it. Sure if there is a groundswell of opposition the EU will take a step back but ultimately they repackage and bring it back.

I think you are delusional if you do not think the ultimate plan of the EU project it to be in effect one nation. One currency, one parliament, one army, one legal system, one constitution etc etc etc. That doesn't sound like nation building to you?

Thankfully people saw common sense and voted out so we don't have to take a gamble on the naïve being wrong.

“Europe’s nations should be guided towards the superstate without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually and irreversibly lead to federation.”

Jean Monnet

Probably why the document FCO30/1048 was hidden away for 40 years. Makes you wonder what's being kept under wraps for the next 40 years.

waz-24-7 wrote:
My view is that the increase in nationalistic views across the world is no good thing. I believe you are wrong that the majority support such a notion.
Again it depends how you define nationalistic. Lets redefine the question, are people more comfortable with the political, legal and economic system they have been raised with and agreed?
waz-24-7 wrote: You clearly think it is a good thing. I wonder how you feel the world will be a better place as a result of this divergence of co operation and harmony.
I expect you are familiar with the history of both world wars that centered around exactly the nationalism that you preach and want to return to.
National pride and nationalism are quite different in my book.
I am immensely proud of my ancestry and country. I have a desire to remain closely linked with our European neighbors as we have been for many years. I feel that the co operation and understanding that I have enjoyed will in time possibly revert to the days pre 1914 and 1939
I have harmony with my next door neighbour. We keep that harmony by me not telling him what shopping to buy, how to vote, what trees to plant etc.

Wars are fought by and large for territory, to improve ones economic lot or to impose their will on another nation.
If you completely roll over on all of the above you almost certainly will avoid a war in the short term.

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ETS
Your idea that the UK severance from the EU will be smooth and that the UK will make laws that will better our position is pie in the sky.
Given the size of the EU with its massive trading market place. You will need to tow the market forces line or lose that market.
Without the EU as our nearest and largest market the prospects to retain any level of prosperity is massively under threat.

Certainly your best of friends attitude but we wont accept your legislation is cake and eat it if ever I saw it.

You are very wrong in your outlook and clearly fall short in your understanding of economics, business and international trade.
It is little wonder that many who are better informed have portrayed the clear risks in the current BREXIT position.
A position that even now very many Brexit voters find confusing, don't understand and or have little ongoing interest.

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waz-24-7 wrote:ETS
Your idea that the UK severance from the EU will be smooth and that the UK will make laws that will better our position is pie in the sky.
Given the size of the EU with its massive trading market place. You will need to tow the market forces line or lose that market.
Without the EU as our nearest and largest market the prospects to retain any level of prosperity is massively under threat.
Leaving the EU will be difficult but it's essential.
We will still have access to the EU market because the big businesses will insist to their leaders we have access. The big businesses will know you do not write off one of your biggest customers because you are sulking.
We were told that not joining the Euro would ruin our prosperity, a line you no doubt echoed at the time.
waz-24-7 wrote:
Certainly your best of friends attitude but we wont accept your legislation is cake and eat it if ever I saw it.
No it's called remaining a nation rather than become a province of one. Something I don't think you need to be a nationalist or a isolationist to desire
waz-24-7 wrote:
You are very wrong in your outlook and clearly fall short in your understanding of economics, business and international trade.
It is little wonder that many who are better informed have portrayed the clear risks in the current BREXIT position.
A position that even now very many Brexit voters find confusing, don't understand and or have little ongoing interest.
Well that's because I'm a stupid brexiter I guess, devastating that I get a vote eh?

No comment on “Europe’s nations should be guided towards the superstate without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually and irreversibly lead to federation.”
or FCO30/1048 I notice.

I guess it doesn't fit the narrative.


I'm informed enough to know that when somebody spends 40-50 years either outright lying or being very selective with how transparent they are as to their aims then the balance of probabilities is they are going to keep lying to me.
I can understand how an inexperienced 20 year old kid in Uni can be so naive but anyone who has been awake over the last 40-50 years?

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ETS
Your counter comments to my points are now rather tiresome and have little valuable content.
Do you indeed have any opinion on developments?

You are to you own admission a "stupid brexiteer" your comment NOT mine.

You may be aware that today Mrs May has secured a "deal" Tomorrow and over next few days the real deal will emerge.
General consensus from possibly your BREXIT heroes is that it will not be what you voted for and will not be supported.

I wonder if you have an opinion on remaining in a customs union?
Do you support Mr Boris Johnson in his outright refusal of the "deal"

Are you at all interested in the deal or are you simply content to have won the referendum?

My own view is that if we remain in a customs union. It will be good for UK business. But at what cost?
On this, I agree with Boris. We have sold ourselves down the river as Brussels will truly have free reign to issue laws and regulations whilst the UK is not only absent from the table but are actually outside the building!!

Stupid brexiteers will not see or acknowledge this. After all the LEAVE tick is victorious..... at any cost...apparently.

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waz-24-7 wrote:ETS
Your counter comments to my points are now rather tiresome and have little valuable content.
Do you indeed have any opinion on developments?

You are to you own admission a "stupid brexiteer" your comment NOT mine.

You may be aware that today Mrs May has secured a "deal" Tomorrow and over next few days the real deal will emerge.
General consensus from possibly your BREXIT heroes is that it will not be what you voted for and will not be supported.

I wonder if you have an opinion on remaining in a customs union?
Do you support Mr Boris Johnson in his outright refusal of the "deal"

Are you at all interested in the deal or are you simply content to have won the referendum?

My own view is that if we remain in a customs union. It will be good for UK business. But at what cost?
On this, I agree with Boris. We have sold ourselves down the river as Brussels will truly have free reign to issue laws and regulations whilst the UK is not only absent from the table but are actually outside the building!!

Stupid brexiteers will not see or acknowledge this. After all the LEAVE tick is victorious..... at any cost...apparently.
So still no comment on the Monnet quote or FCO30/1048?
You know who Monnet is right?

As for my admission as being a stupid Brexiteer you obviously not sharp enough to pick up on irony or much else tbh.
And yes the leave tick was victorious isn’t life a bitch but that’s democracy for you. I can see why the EU populated by facists has such appeal.

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Post by waz-24-7 »

ETS
The Monnet document was 30 years ago. Its history of little consequence in the modern world.
Persistence in looking backwards is possibly hindering your view and aspirations for the future.

Your avoidance to address the questions upon the "deal" support my view that you have little understanding or desire to address the immediate issues.
The leave ticket said it all for you and damn the consequences.
Your one up-manship holds no respect in this quarter.

Perhaps you might respond to my questions or am I correct you ticked the box and damn the now apparent consequences.

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https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldn ... tions.html

Few more recent quotes for you on the democratic open EU.

But keep your head in the sand old son all the nations in the EU will stay independent I’m sure!
At least thanks to the majority of people the UK won’t now become a province.

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EnjoyingTheSun wrote:https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldn ... tions.html

Few more recent quotes for you on the democratic open EU.

But keep your head in the sand old son all the nations in the EU will stay independent I’m sure!
At least thanks to the majority of people the UK won’t now become a province.

Hmmm
Your distain for anything European is abundantly clear.
Might I suggest that when you open your front the door in the morning to enjoy the sun.
You contemplate for one moment. You are residing in Europe. Indeed in the Worlds eyes within the very Union you distrust and clearly detest.

Perhaps its time to regress back behind the white cliffs of Dover where you can relish in your own nationalistic micro world.

Furthermore,
The sound of your responses to my questions is deafening.

Mrs May has informed us that her cabinet supports the "deal"
I wonder if you do?
My view is that it will save the economy but the UK has lost out massively. DUP will certainly not support it. Will parliament reject it?
Will the people get an option to vote on it? Will a general election emerge very soon?

Strange now that both headline REMAINERS and BREXITEERS appear to dismiss the said deal outright.

Doesn't that tell you anything about the complete flop BREXIT has become.

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ETS, Sorry for the delay, I have been busy living life instead of dreaming on. You asked me a question:

"Ok here's a question back. Do you want to abolish our Parliament, Civil Service, Army, courts and justice system etc and to totally use the facilities of Europe?
Let's be fair anything else is a duplication of effort and cost.

We will have no elections in our country apart from to vote for our MEP. The voting system we will use will be whatever our neighbours choose, proportional representation looks favourite."?

Actually a number of questions in there my answers would apply anyway.

Parliament - Yes, fed up of paying children to bicker in a listed building we do not need. Civil Service - That is a very, very broad brush but parts of them - Yes. Army - By that I take it you mean the UK Military as a whole? - Yes, why put our own guys/girls in danger when you can pay someone else to do it for you? Courts and Justice system etc - Yes, why not? Why do we always have to duplicate and duplicate and duplicate when a single body can do the same work and be paid from a central fund anyway? Then everyone will have the same rules and laws as everyone else.

Any voting system will do so long as everyone HAS to vote instead of just letting some vote and leaving it up to the majority of the minority!

We only need to waste money on ONE MEP anyway - restrict the number of MEPs overall to one per country and you will have decisions a lot faster than the three years it takes now. BUT if you are talking about the UK's MEPs then the one who is voted in must be a EU supporter and not one who will do everything in their power to make the EU fal for it's own country

In other words MAKE people responsible for their actions in the same manner that you are responsible for your own - pipe dream!!!!!

As for the latest news on Brexit - what a major step that has been, now we wait to see if the other 27 nations will agree to something they all should have been involved with all the way through! More waste of time/money.
Make happy those who are near and those who are far will come!

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Post by PoshinDevon »

waddo wrote:ETS, Sorry for the delay, I have been busy living life instead of dreaming on. You asked me a question:

"Ok here's a question back. Do you want to abolish our Parliament, Civil Service, Army, courts and justice system etc and to totally use the facilities of Europe?
Let's be fair anything else is a duplication of effort and cost.

We will have no elections in our country apart from to vote for our MEP. The voting system we will use will be whatever our neighbours choose, proportional representation looks favourite."?

Actually a number of questions in there my answers would apply anyway.

Parliament - Yes, fed up of paying children to bicker in a listed building we do not need. Civil Service - That is a very, very broad brush but parts of them - Yes. Army - By that I take it you mean the UK Military as a whole? - Yes, why put our own guys/girls in danger when you can pay someone else to do it for you? Courts and Justice system etc - Yes, why not? Why do we always have to duplicate and duplicate and duplicate when a single body can do the same work and be paid from a central fund anyway? Then everyone will have the same rules and laws as everyone else.

Retain parts of the civil service.....why bother? Get rid of the U.K. armed forces, get rid of U.K. courts and justice system? Hmmm.

Any voting system will do so long as everyone HAS to vote instead of just letting some vote and leaving it up to the majority of the minority!

Any voting system.....everyone must vote.....so sort of like a dictatorship with punishment if you don’t vote at all?


We only need to waste money on ONE MEP anyway - restrict the number of MEPs overall to one per country and you will have decisions a lot faster than the three years it takes now. BUT if you are talking about the UK's MEPs then the one who is voted in must be a EU supporter and not one who will do everything in their power to make the EU fal for it's own country

Let me get this clear.......one MEP representing the whole of the U.K. who must believe in the E.U.? Is this what you think is the way forward? Doesn’t sound very democratic to me.

In other words MAKE people responsible for their actions in the same manner that you are responsible for your own - pipe dream!!!!!

As for the latest news on Brexit - what a major step that has been, now we wait to see if the other 27 nations will agree to something they all should have been involved with all the way through! More waste of time/money.
Long way to go with Brexit yet sadly. Two MPs resigned and good chance more will follow. PM will get a grilling today as she takes “draft” agreement to parliament. Possibility more letters of no confidence in her leadership. No guarantee that if these hurdles are overcome that the vote sometime in Dec on the deal will get a majority. Jacob Rees - Mogg has written to say he will not support the agreement, there will be many others.

Haven’t read the 580 plus pages of the draft agreement but from just listening to the news it seems its many will not be happy with it.m
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waz-24-7 wrote:
Your distain for anything European is abundantly clear.
Might I suggest that when you open your front the door in the morning to enjoy the sun.

You contemplate for one moment. You are residing in Europe. Indeed in the Worlds eyes within the very Union you distrust and clearly detest.

Perhaps its time to regress back behind the white cliffs of Dover where you can relish in your own nationalistic micro world.
I have no problem with Europe or Europeans but I do have a problem with becoming a different country if it is against the will of the people.
I love dogs but I don't want to become one.

The EU is manned by politicians who have often been rejected by the electorate in their own countries who intend to eventually create a new country with existing countries as states within it.
It is blindingly obvious and despite the lies of project fear people finally saw through it.
I have no doubt that if a referendum is called in every country within the union declaring clearly that is the ultimate intention of the EU do you say yes or no, the vote will be overwhelmingly no.
The EU knows this and so will never be so transparent.
waz-24-7 wrote: The sound of your responses to my questions is deafening.
You don't respond to my questions or points so why I should yours?
I started by responding to your questions only for you to either ignore my answers or misquote them so what would be the point.
I'm not offended I put it down to you being a bit slow. The fact that you naively don't believe that ultimately the UK within the EU would have the independence of Yorkshire illustrates this.

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There's nowt wrong wi' Yorkshire - and Yorkshire folk are very independent

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So Waddo you want the UK to become a province of Europe with little to no independence and want our voting system to be proportional representation?

You understand that the UK will have to independance of Yorkshire?

You also understand that the far right would find it near impossible to get the traction they have got under our first past the post system?

Thank you for your honesty.

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PoshinDevon wrote:
waddo wrote:ETS, Sorry for the delay, I have been busy living life instead of dreaming on. You asked me a question:

"Ok here's a question back. Do you want to abolish our Parliament, Civil Service, Army, courts and justice system etc and to totally use the facilities of Europe?
Let's be fair anything else is a duplication of effort and cost.

We will have no elections in our country apart from to vote for our MEP. The voting system we will use will be whatever our neighbours choose, proportional representation looks favourite."?

Actually a number of questions in there my answers would apply anyway.

Parliament - Yes, fed up of paying children to bicker in a listed building we do not need. Civil Service - That is a very, very broad brush but parts of them - Yes. Army - By that I take it you mean the UK Military as a whole? - Yes, why put our own guys/girls in danger when you can pay someone else to do it for you? Courts and Justice system etc - Yes, why not? Why do we always have to duplicate and duplicate and duplicate when a single body can do the same work and be paid from a central fund anyway? Then everyone will have the same rules and laws as everyone else.

Retain parts of the civil service.....why bother? Get rid of the U.K. armed forces, get rid of U.K. courts and justice system? Hmmm.

Any voting system will do so long as everyone HAS to vote instead of just letting some vote and leaving it up to the majority of the minority!

Any voting system.....everyone must vote.....so sort of like a dictatorship with punishment if you don’t vote at all?


We only need to waste money on ONE MEP anyway - restrict the number of MEPs overall to one per country and you will have decisions a lot faster than the three years it takes now. BUT if you are talking about the UK's MEPs then the one who is voted in must be a EU supporter and not one who will do everything in their power to make the EU fal for it's own country

Let me get this clear.......one MEP representing the whole of the U.K. who must believe in the E.U.? Is this what you think is the way forward? Doesn’t sound very democratic to me.
Sounds great doesn't it?
On remembrance day we can pat all the World War Two veterans on the head and say sorry lads you wasted your time we would have been happy with a Vichy government.

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Keithcaley wrote:There's nowt wrong wi' Yorkshire - and Yorkshire folk are very independent
Just an example Keith

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PoshinDevon wrote:
Long way to go with Brexit yet sadly. Two MPs resigned and good chance more will follow. PM will get a grilling today as she takes “draft” agreement to parliament. Possibility more letters of no confidence in her leadership. No guarantee that if these hurdles are overcome that the vote sometime in Dec on the deal will get a majority. Jacob Rees - Mogg has written to say he will not support the agreement, there will be many others.

Haven’t read the 580 plus pages of the draft agreement but from just listening to the news it seems its many will not be happy with it.m
Problem is the Tories are split heavily on this issue as are Labour, the issue goes beyond party lines. Presenting a divided front gives an opening for the EU to play hard ball.
May is a remainer and a very untalented politician who fell into power by luck and keeping her head down.

If nothing else it illustrates the self interest of MPS.
Corbyn has been anti EU his whole career but he and his party will vote against any deal to try and make the government fall.
Lots of the Tory MPS are positioning themselves on whatever side they think will advance their career the best.

Their own personal beliefs and the good of the country takes second place.


Gone are the days when you could have two polar opposites such as Tony Benn and Enoch Powell campaigning on the same side because they believed rightly or wrongly that was the right thing for the country.

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Post by PoshinDevon »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
PoshinDevon wrote:
Long way to go with Brexit yet sadly. Two MPs resigned and good chance more will follow. PM will get a grilling today as she takes “draft” agreement to parliament. Possibility more letters of no confidence in her leadership. No guarantee that if these hurdles are overcome that the vote sometime in Dec on the deal will get a majority. Jacob Rees - Mogg has written to say he will not support the agreement, there will be many others.

Haven’t read the 580 plus pages of the draft agreement but from just listening to the news it seems its many will not be happy with it.m
Problem is the Tories are split heavily on this issue as are Labour, the issue goes beyond party lines. Presenting a divided front gives an opening for the EU to play hard ball.
May is a remainer and a very untalented politician who fell into power by luck and keeping her head down.

If nothing else it illustrates the self interest of MPS.
Corbyn has been anti EU his whole career but he and his party will vote against any deal to try and make the government fall.
Lots of the Tory MPS are positioning themselves on whatever side they think will advance their career the best.

Their own personal beliefs and the good of the country takes second place.

Agree.

My personal gripe is MPs that do not represent the views of their constituents. If your constituents voted either remain or leave that decision should be respected. Today there have been a couple of resignations plus Jacob Rees-Mogg going on record that he cannot accept the draft agreement as it stands. It seems that about a third of the cabinet are also unhappy with the deal. It remains to be seen as to whether they will put their heads above the parapet. Somehow I doubt it.

As for Waddo’s suggestions; wow, they certainly are different.



Gone are the days when you could have two polar opposites such as Tony Benn and Enoch Powell campaigning on the same side because they believed rightly or wrongly that was the right thing for the country.
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PoshinDevon wrote:
As for Waddo’s suggestions; wow, they certainly are different.
Re Waddo I have no problem with someone who has their eyes open and knows we are going to end up a province of a superstate and believes that is the way forward. I don't agree and believe that if the EU is honestly and transparently laid out like that then we won't have just 52% voting against it but each to their own.

I have more a problem with Waz who can't see or refuses to see the big picture and decides that anyone who voted to leave purely did it because they are stupid, isolationist or racist.

The day after we joined the EEC there was a poll which was 39% against 38% for and 23% undecided. I believe that those figures probably haven't changed that much. I think of the 38% if they could see the big picture then more of them would move to leave than vice versa.

Of the don't knows they again split in half but I think the half wanting to stay do so purely because they fear change which is natural.
What they don't realise is this is a project that will continue to change. There is no status quo. In 50 years time you will either be a province in a huge country or not in it. That simple.
The question is do you want to give up your independance and can you survive by not being a province of a superstate or big country?

I personally think we can. It will take a lot of adjustment and short term things will be precarious but for me the alternative is too scary.

Also the superstate will be almost totally relying on the German economy which has proved to be robust but how many passengers can it carry?

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Post by waz-24-7 »

The potential chaos is now clearer than previously as disillusionment and division take hold.

This is not a simple LEAVE or REMAIN.

Both factions are very clearly against the "deal". Resignations in the government reflect this.

This is now: accept the deal or stay in the EU. Another referendum will, in my view, also spell chaos. I'm afraid its a lose lose scenario.

The BREXIT people voted for is a million miles away.
The EU will not accept any more negotiating towards another deal.
Its DEAL or NO deal for Mrs May. If the government fails. I expect real harm to the UK economy as political turmoil overtakes any deal acceptance.

A NO deal will be catastrophic and the fall out for £ and markets could again cause unseen damage to the UK economy.

tingtang
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Re: Brexit - Sensible thoughts on a highly charged topic

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Post by tingtang »

This thread is shortly about to hit the 200 mark.
Is that a record?
Coronation Street watch out - Kibcom is on your tail.

tt.
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Re: Brexit - Sensible thoughts on a highly charged topic

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

I’d call their bluff and go for no deal.
Time to be strong, the EU will wipe their feet on us if they sense weakness in our resolve to leave on fair terms.

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Re: Brexit - Sensible thoughts on a highly charged topic

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Post by waz-24-7 »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:I’d call their bluff and go for no deal.
Time to be strong, the EU will wipe their feet on us if they sense weakness in our resolve to leave on fair terms.
Hmmm
one up -manship is hardly the best course of action here.

The negotiations have been completed and the deal is agreed. Now its down to parliament OR the people.
The UK government is on verge of collapse. What do the people think?

We are already very vulnerable and its now a damage limitation exercise. The UK has most to lose here.
Accept the deal, which is a rubbish one, and we are by all intents locked in until we can escape.
NO Deal is a disaster for the UK economy and the UK government will surely implode.
2nd referendum.... Panic stations and our soft underbelly is exposed for attack particularly if its accept the deal.

We should never have let it get to this. Absolute lunacy. In my opinion Mr Cameron lost this for us. He gambled on a REMAIN vote and lost.

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Re: Brexit - Sensible thoughts on a highly charged topic

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waz-24-7 wrote: We should never have let it get to this. Absolute lunacy. In my opinion Mr Cameron lost this for us. He gambled on a REMAIN vote and lost.
It’s terrible when people get a say on their future isn’t it?

The quicker the UK get one of those far right governments that the rest of Europe are gearing up for and ban all elections the better eh?

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Re: Brexit - Sensible thoughts on a highly charged topic

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Post by waz-24-7 »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
waz-24-7 wrote: We should never have let it get to this. Absolute lunacy. In my opinion Mr Cameron lost this for us. He gambled on a REMAIN vote and lost.
It’s terrible when people get a say on their future isn’t it?

The quicker the UK get one of those far right governments that the rest of Europe are gearing up for and ban all elections the better eh?

Indeed,
Should the people now have their say.

ACCEPT the deal, NO Deal or REMAIN

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Re: Brexit - Sensible thoughts on a highly charged topic

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Post by erol »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:Again putting words in my mouth. I said less government not no government.

Surely you will agree there is little to be gained by duplication so which would you rather cut, UK government or EU government?
Number of civil servants employed by UK (2015) = 433,800 serving a population of around 60 million.

Number of civil servants employed by the EU (2015) = 46,356 serving a population of around 500 million. (Those working for EU commission = 24,428)

Number of civil servants employed by Birmingham City Council (2015-16) = 33,477 serving a population of around 1.1 million.

Where would I look if my objective really was 'less government', UK civil servants or EU ones ?

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