DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by waz-24-7 »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
waz-24-7 wrote:
Sterling is no longer the force it used to be within the global currency and economics market.
The $, EURO, YEN, take the lead.
The UK trades offshore in mainly these currencies and the cost to UK business and economy is large as money markets capitalize on the exchange mechanisms.

I would be quite happy in fact to seriously consider use of the EURO or the US$. Many businesses in the UK hold EURO and $ accounts for international trade. Travelers are forced to exchange the good old £ into more acceptable currencies at significant cost for the privilege.

What indeed is so special about the UK £?
You have no idea what you are talking about do you? I guess the problem you had was finding an article informing us how wonderful the Euro is.
It isn't that the pound is special or needs to be one of the leading currencies. You don't change your currency just for convenience there is a bit more to it than saving a trip to the currency exchange.
I'm assuming that your business, that can only trade with countries in the immediate vicinity, means that you need a Euro account for which your bank makes hefty charges?
The Euro actually illustrates the hidden dangers of the EU so I wouldn't expect you to spot them Waz or read or understand the following.

The Euro was needed for those who are desperate to united Europe. If/when the Euro did go into meltdown it would only bring its participants closed together = political union.
When the Euro was started it was like putting the roof on a house before putting up the walls but was a political decision rather than an economic one.
A common currency leads to a common state. There are examples of different states using the same currency but they are small countries sharing a currency such as some of the Carribean countries using the dollar. Nowhere other than the EU do major states of roughly equal size share a common currency. That is because any reasonably sized country likes to have a say in the issue and management of their currency.
The problems of sharing a currency with your neighbours is that one of your neighbours may operate policies that undermine the currency which can cause a banking crises, inflation, effect bond yields or even cause a currency collapse. So you need to have some sort of control of their financial policies and how can you do that without a political union? How Europhiles can still tell us that there is no intention for EU members to lose any sovereignty and justify the Euro is beyond me.

Were you to decide to share a currency or form monetary union with others you first need to find if you are both simpatico. Are you subject to the same economic shocks, can you both produce full employment without independently fiddling with different interest rates etc? The EU didn't do this, the Euro was created with no bail-out clause, the stability and growth pact wasn't worth the paper it was written on and most importantly there was no banking union.

Spain and Ireland had a credit explosion which led to their property market overheating but Greece is a simpler example.
Greece joins the Euro and now enjoys lower interest rates and goes on a spending spree. German exporters were the main beneficiaries of this spree.
Slowly costs and prices continued to rise faster in the little countries like Greece than in Germany and the Greeks couldn’t compete. This often happened in the past but now Greece can't depreciate the Drachma and get more competitive.
So when the 2008 crisis hit everyone badly, for the small countries in the Euro like Greece it was catastrophic.
Now the EU had to save Greece from bankruptcy. With their options limited due to the Euro they come up with an austerity programme to deflate the Greek economy. It was the same solution that had been tried and failed in the thirties. The trouble is deflation worsens the debt ratio.
The gains of the Euro in reduced uncertainty over exchange rates and increased market size and efficiency have been very small. Trade between Eurozone members grew no faster than it did between members and non-members. However costs and prices rose faster in those countries that had historically high inflation. So overall the Eurozone performance was poor overall. It has been a chief driver of the overall high unemployment throughout the Eurozone which was the main criticism of the Gold Standard. That’s what Keynes was keen to avoid when he designed the Bretton Woods fixed but adjustable exchange rate. So basically The Euro is the modern Gold Standard with all of its faults and few of its strengths. At least with the Gold Standard countries were at least still in charge of their own financial management although they had little room for manoeuvre. And the Gold Standard wasn't a ruse to remove national sovereignty because you could suspend it or leave it.

Comparing the average economic growth of the Eurozone it is a little over half what it was in the 18 years after the Euro than it was in the 18 years before it. Times have been hard since 2008 but the Eurozone’s performance is far below countries that aren’t in the Euro. Germany’s growth has been a little under the Uk’s and half that of the US but France is nearly half the UK and nearly a third of the US. Spain, Portugal, Italy and Greece have contracted.

Whilst your point carries some credence.
Sterling is not the power house of value (monetary) that is has been.
The Euro has smoothed the way that commerce takes place within the Union. Just like the USA $ in America.
The UK will certainly come under increasing pressure to trade in other currencies apart for Sterling.. There is frankly little point apart from setting monetary values within the boundaries.
Look at the Turkish Lira for example. Has little position of strength within the currency markets as it is governed in part by $, euros etc.
Its like English language. This form of spoken communication has become the trading language across the world. (worthless monetarily of course)
The $ has the presence because it has benchmark strength across the world.
Perhaps well ask Mr Trump is we can adopt the $. We may even become the nth state of the USA. Then well build a wall and of course get the French to pay for it.

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

waz-24-7 wrote: Whilst your point carries some credence.
Sterling is not the power house of value (monetary) that is has been.
The Euro has smoothed the way that commerce takes place within the Union. Just like the USA $ in America.
The UK will certainly come under increasing pressure to trade in other currencies apart for Sterling.. There is frankly little point apart from setting monetary values within the boundaries.
Look at the Turkish Lira for example. Has little position of strength within the currency markets as it is governed in part by $, euros etc.
Its like English language. This form of spoken communication has become the trading language across the world. (worthless monetarily of course)
The $ has the presence because it has benchmark strength across the world.
Perhaps well ask Mr Trump is we can adopt the $. We may even become the nth state of the USA. Then well build a wall and of course get the French to pay for it.
If the Euro has smoothed the way that commerce takes place within the Union than why has growth slowed significantly since it’s inception?

Actually having English as the trading language across the world is of tremendous value.

When doing trade with another currency what currency you pay in and at what agreed rate rank pretty low in the potential problems.

You seem to have this view that the importance of currency and it’s exchange rate is governed by how many people use it and size is everything.
I’m sure we both buy potatoes every week. I doubt whether we buy diamonds that often. Potatoes are bigger than diamonds. More potatoes than diamonds are traded every day in quantity and value. Will you swap me your diamond for my potato?

Do you think Switzerland would give up the Swiss Franc under any circumstances to join the Euro. Or Singapore will save themselves a trip to the money exchange by changing to the US dollar? Of course not both their economies are strong and respected as shown by the strength of their currencies.

Do you think Greece regrets joining the Euro?

As for adopting the dollar and becoming a state in America. The EU hasn’t joined the US it has pirated it. The belief in Europe was the reason for America’s success was the size of its home market and its advantage issuing the world’s currency.
America has a huge natural advantage having the Pacific on one coast and the Atlantic on the other. That’s geography nothing we can do about that.
America also has generally been governed in a way that doesn’t inhibit the growth of industry and commerce by interfering and over regulating.
The two biggest economic game changers in recent years have been information technology and globalization. Both needed flexibility and adaptation. America adapted better than the EU which is many things but flexible isn’t one of them.

It is ironic, that every argument you use is really an argument against the EU.
Leavers are too insular?
Leavers don’t want to tie themselves to a single market and want to trade freely around the world.
Leavers can’t see the big picture.
The world’s a big place why do we have to mainly trade with our next door neighbours?
To leave the EU is unfriendly.
We aren’t moving our country we are just changing our way of business. I have friends that don’t live in the same street as me. I would find it a bit xenophobic to limit myself to my immediate neighbours.
The UK is not as efficient as the EU and won’t be able to secure trade deals without them.
The EU has been hacking away at a trade deal with America for nearly 30 years. Would it be hard to find anyone less efficient?
The UK will be too small to survive without the EU.
Singapore is far smaller than us and is thriving. Small is better in these fast changing times. Elephants can’t run very fast or change direction quickly.

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by turtle »

Second referendum off the table.......for now ?

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by waz-24-7 »

I would agree that a second referendum is looking less likely as matters proceed within the UK Parliament.
I am content that a deal is the lesser of the two evils. As per this topic heading. Clearly it is not accepted by many Brexit supporters.
Many participants on this topic have not shown their cards or indeed why.

Why? because without a deal the serious lack of structure, trading terms , customs arrangements. Irish border issues would just leave us in absolute chaos and open to commercial and economic attack from all sides.
The trading world in general seeks expansion and advantage. A weakened, uncertain economic status in the UK leaves the door wide open.

Regarding currency changes and fluctuations for example £ v Euro v US$. Fluctuations in values create difficulties to forecast or make accurate quotations for supplies. A weaker currency on any one day can have massive repercussions on pricing and margin.
Right now quotations in Euros are particularly difficult as post 29th March one cannot predict or make accurate judgment....because we don't know!!

I am slightly encouraged today that £ sterling has risen suggesting a deal is a bit closer. If a customs union or agreement can come off then Mrs May could convince BREXIT has been secured.

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by turtle »

You can live in hope Waz but without the removal of the backstop there is no chance of a deal.....and rightly so imo.

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by waz-24-7 »

turtle wrote:You can live in hope Waz but without the removal of the backstop there is no chance of a deal.....and rightly so imo.
So with No deal
What is your response and reasoning to the people of Ireland?
What will you say today to the 4000 employees of AIRBUS?
What will you say to the offshore poachers of British trade as they line up to secure new business because the UK remains in political and economic turmoil ?
What will you say to UK European passport holders (yourself included) who no longer have the freedom of travel that you retain for next 65 days?

Some thought and soul searching required I think.

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by turtle »

Before I answer your post Waz are we to believe that you agree with and would sign the current Tereasa May agreement ?

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

turtle wrote:Before I answer your post Waz are we to believe that you agree with and would sign the current Tereasa May agreement ?
If it means we essentially stay in, he'll sign anything

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

waz-24-7 wrote: Many participants on this topic have not shown their cards or indeed why.
They have countless times but you ignore them.
waz-24-7 wrote: Why? because without a deal the serious lack of structure, trading terms , customs arrangements. Irish border issues would just leave us in absolute chaos and open to commercial and economic attack from all sides.
Usual project fear stuff on if we leave the EU.
What surprises me about an organisation that we have been in for 40 odd years is that no-one can come up with a good reason for being part of it.
There are some general easily disproven claims that it has given us peace or improved our trade, but from the Remain campaign down no-one has said we need to be in the EU because it is fantastic and has done this for us. The usual reasoning is it is crap but it might improve and it will be more crap out of it. And they wonder the largest number of people who have ever voted for anything in British political history voted to leave.
waz-24-7 wrote: The trading world in general seeks expansion and advantage.
So why shackle ourselves to our next door neighbor and follow the EU’s countless regulations?
waz-24-7 wrote: Regarding currency changes and fluctuations for example £ v Euro v US$. Fluctuations in values create difficulties to forecast or make accurate quotations for supplies. A weaker currency on any one day can have massive repercussions on pricing and margin.
If a currency goes down in value you sell more. Would you rather sell 100 at a profit of 50p or 500 at a profit of 25p. Having some control over your currency is essential in any economy.

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

waz-24-7 wrote:
turtle wrote:You can live in hope Waz but without the removal of the backstop there is no chance of a deal.....and rightly so imo.
So with No deal
What is your response and reasoning to the people of Ireland?
What will you say today to the 4000 employees of AIRBUS?
What will you say to the offshore poachers of British trade as they line up to secure new business because the UK remains in political and economic turmoil ?
What will you say to UK European passport holders (yourself included) who no longer have the freedom of travel that you retain for next 65 days?

Some thought and soul searching required I think.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/over ... ever-level

https://economia.icaew.com/news/decembe ... hest-level

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by desih »

My opinion for what it's worth is that if Britain leaves without a deal it will still have "a great future to look back on"!

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by waz-24-7 »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
waz-24-7 wrote:
turtle wrote:You can live in hope Waz but without the removal of the backstop there is no chance of a deal.....and rightly so imo.
So with No deal
What is your response and reasoning to the people of Ireland?
What will you say today to the 4000 employees of AIRBUS?
What will you say to the offshore poachers of British trade as they line up to secure new business because the UK remains in political and economic turmoil ?
What will you say to UK European passport holders (yourself included) who no longer have the freedom of travel that you retain for next 65 days?

Some thought and soul searching required I think.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/over ... ever-level

https://economia.icaew.com/news/decembe ... hest-level

ETS
Thanks for that input.
Perhaps I should enlighten you upon the two strains of investment.

Investment into job creation such as manufacturing which involves businesses moving production, jobs and benefits into the UK. This has a positive outcome for UK working citizens, society and upon inward spending on local services and welfare. This type of preferential investment is right now almost zero!!

The second type of investment which has steadily increased since the 1970's. Is the carpet bagger type. Foreign money from the largest and richest economies such as the BRIC economies buy up British owned businesses, property and assets with a view to maximizing profits for EXPORT offshore.
Many of these multinational businesses have developed a reputation for avoiding local taxes and assets and money move around holding companies and offshore tax havens to ensure a small number become very very wealthy indeed.
Of course some benefit is created but the truth is that the UK is slowly but surely selling out to the highest bidder or more precisely to the very wealthy.
Now I am a capitalist living in the capitalist world and so I should not object. I much prefer the first strain of investment,

It is clear that those supporting BREXIT are somewhat blind to the slow but sure take over by foreign investors. What is certain. Money talks and BREXIT will not stop this sell out.

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by turtle »

waz-24-7 wrote:
turtle wrote:You can live in hope Waz but without the removal of the backstop there is no chance of a deal.....and rightly so imo.
So with No deal
What is your response and reasoning to the people of Ireland?
What will you say today to the 4000 employees of AIRBUS?
What will you say to the offshore poachers of British trade as they line up to secure new business because the UK remains in political and economic turmoil ?
What will you say to UK European passport holders (yourself included) who no longer have the freedom of travel that you retain for next 65 days?

Some thought and soul searching required I think.
So the fact you chose to swerve my question yet again i will take it you agree with the deal on offer...
My response to the good people of NI is this deal will leave them hitched to the EU for eternity with this rechard backstop something i simply can't agree with
The Aibus thing is to my mind hot air and bluster and scaremongering at its finest.
Offshore poachers have been around for decades and its only since we have been part of the EU have we lost most of our precious companies that have been raped by th EU
Passports well not sure about you but after 29 March I will be able to travel the world inc Europe so can't see what the panic is there ?

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by turtle »

There you are Waz I new I had read it somewhere and this is to back up the Airbus BS....
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/c ... /38005.htm

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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turtle wrote:There you are Waz I new I had read it somewhere and this is to back up the Airbus BS....
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/c ... /38005.htm
Thank you.
I agree with the article in that tariffs is not the issue that UK based business faces. This can easily be overcome with diligent and prudent maneuvering.

My experience of trading with Europe for many years in a "just in time environment" which is massively competitive.
Is get the product to market. Meeting time line deliveries and maintaining a supply chain loop for customers. In addition compliance with European standards and directives is critical to winning business. Certainly the increasing nature of standards on products from food labelling to co 2 omissions to water quality are directives that the UK and BREXIT cannot escape. To trade offshore; UK business must comply and give customers what they want whether legally required or simply to attract trade.

AIRBUS is a European trading business that sells products globally. It is essential to maintain European standards and directives and support its sister production in France. I suspect it will take the obvious step and move its production to France so it is close to French plants and is within the European trading Union.

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by waz-24-7 »

turtle wrote:
waz-24-7 wrote:
turtle wrote:You can live in hope Waz but without the removal of the backstop there is no chance of a deal.....and rightly so imo.
So with No deal
What is your response and reasoning to the people of Ireland?
What will you say today to the 4000 employees of AIRBUS?
What will you say to the offshore poachers of British trade as they line up to secure new business because the UK remains in political and economic turmoil ?
What will you say to UK European passport holders (yourself included) who no longer have the freedom of travel that you retain for next 65 days?

Some thought and soul searching required I think.
So the fact you chose to swerve my question yet again i will take it you agree with the deal on offer...
My response to the good people of NI is this deal will leave them hitched to the EU for eternity with this rechard backstop something i simply can't agree with
The Aibus thing is to my mind hot air and bluster and scaremongering at its finest.
Offshore poachers have been around for decades and its only since we have been part of the EU have we lost most of our precious companies that have been raped by th EU
Passports well not sure about you but after 29 March I will be able to travel the world inc Europe so can't see what the panic is there ?
I think we should DEAL . I said it several times!!
Rather hypocritical answer from yourself.
You democratically voted BREXIT and your democratically appointed PM, Mrs May has made an agreement with the European Union upon departure from the union. There's the plain truth upon the matter
I think its time to take the cake and eat it. OR it goes back to the people and let democratic process decide upon the matter
.

Europe has not raped the UK. It is global money from BRIC economies that is systematically buying the UK.

Yes you can travel the world of course. But expect, in time, to experience more difficulty as you have lost the free right of passage in 27 countries within the Union. A particular issue if you live in unrecognized TRNC, directly linked to an EU state that holds serious animosity against you.

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waz-24-7 wrote:
Investment into job creation such as manufacturing which involves businesses moving production, jobs and benefits into the UK. This has a positive outcome for UK working citizens, society and upon inward spending on local services and welfare. This type of preferential investment is right now almost zero!!
.
https://tradingeconomics.com/united-kin ... yment-rate

Employment Rate in the United Kingdom increased to 75.80 percent in October from 75.70 percent in September of 2018. Employment Rate in the United Kingdom averaged 71.22 percent from 1971 until 2018, reaching an all time high of 75.80 percent in October of 2018 and a record low of 65.60 percent in March of 1983

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-45875599
Wages excluding bonuses have risen at their fastest pace in nearly 10 years, official figures show.
Pay rose by 3.1% in the three months to August, compared with a year ago, while inflation for the same period was 2.5%.
Last week, Bank of England chief economist Andy Haldane said he saw signs of a "new dawn" for wage growth


waz- But expect, in time, to experience more difficulty as you have lost the free right of passage in 27 countries within the Union. A particular issue if you live in unrecognized TRNC, directly linked to an EU state that holds serious animosity against you.


So we will be in the same position has nationals of the other 168 countries in the world,
How many 100s of pounds do you think a EU visa will be and how difficult are they going to be to obtain? will we need to travel to London and queue in the EU consulate or worse visit the consulates of all the remaining countries of EU has punishment for leaving the union?

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by turtle »

Airbus is French, German and Spanish owned.....and in my opinion has been told in no uncertain terms that its future after Brexit does not reside in the UK.... can't do anything about that other than wave it good bye but I'm sure the 4000 employees will lean on the side of Brexit than the EU who have just pulled the rug from under them and done that purely to punnish them...... it's a dangerous game these people are playing.

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

waz-24-7 wrote:

ETS
Thanks for that input.
Perhaps I should enlighten you upon the two strains of investment.

Investment into job creation such as manufacturing which involves businesses moving production, jobs and benefits into the UK. This has a positive outcome for UK working citizens, society and upon inward spending on local services and welfare. This type of preferential investment is right now almost zero!!

The second type of investment which has steadily increased since the 1970's. Is the carpet bagger type. Foreign money from the largest and richest economies such as the BRIC economies buy up British owned businesses, property and assets with a view to maximizing profits for EXPORT offshore.
Many of these multinational businesses have developed a reputation for avoiding local taxes and assets and money move around holding companies and offshore tax havens to ensure a small number become very very wealthy indeed.
Of course some benefit is created but the truth is that the UK is slowly but surely selling out to the highest bidder or more precisely to the very wealthy.
Now I am a capitalist living in the capitalist world and so I should not object. I much prefer the first strain of investment,

It is clear that those supporting BREXIT are somewhat blind to the slow but sure take over by foreign investors. What is certain. Money talks and BREXIT will not stop this sell out.
Waz you have certainly enlightened me but not as you thought.
I always wondered who on earth London Transport were hoping to fool when they used to come up with excuses like they were the wrong type of leaves on the line or its the wrong type of snow. I always thought come on no-one I know is that gullible. Well now I have met one so I'm enlightened thank you.
Kerry has taken care of our employment figures, I'm assuming you don't want to compare our unemployment statistics with the Eurozone?
With all these horrible foreigners coming into invest their money in the UK to rape and pillage our green land I'm assuming that our EU brothers are exempt from that criticism? The nasty foreigner ploy is flexible?
I sympathise with you because foreign investment in isn't a matter for opinion or debate. It pretty much says we think your country has a good future and we would like some of that. A great indicator of how you are doing. As you know foreign investment into the Eurozone is consistently falling.

So here you have a figure and you are a bit of a bind.
Plan A, Disprove the figure. You can't.
Plan B. Attack the source. Tricky because the source it is coming from is one you use all the time as unimpeachable.
Plan C. Say it isn't that great anyhow and throw in its the wrong type of snow.

Classic

Am still waiting for you to give me that reason that I can't argue with as to how we are better in the EU than out of it?

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

waz-24-7 wrote:
In addition compliance with European standards and directives is critical to winning business. Certainly the increasing nature of standards on products from food labelling to co 2 omissions to water quality are directives that the UK and BREXIT cannot escape. To trade offshore; UK business must comply and give customers what they want whether legally required or simply to attract trade.
Well as we have been in the EU for over 40 years and religiously follow all the standards and over regulation it applies then the goods that we export to them already meet those standards so no problem or hold ups there. Obviously they could get awkward but that will degenerate into a tit for tat and we have a 65 billion pound card to play.

If you have a new product and do not wish to jump through the EU loops of the correct curvature of a banana and suchlike then export it to one of the countries that isn't in a protectionist trading block and are thriving and racing past the EU.

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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I guess to sum up I'm just too cynical to buy into the EU.
Don't get me wrong I admire a lot of things about it. It reminds me of one of these companies that is worth tens of billions that has never turned a profit and still doubles their stock price year on year. I wish I had thought of it.
I always thought that at some point you have to put up or shut up but apparently not.
Re the EU there is nothing there that has significantly improved our lives and we have paid a lot of money for the privilege. If that very expensive gym membership isn’t making you fitter or you aren’t getting anything else out of it, try something else.
Sure our economy has grown during membership but so has virtually every other country on Earth in that time period. Most by more.
We have had peace but is that down to the EU or NATO and the threat of nuclear weapons? I know which my money is on. We are all one happy family but how many wars have taken place between countries who have a treaty between them.
The problem with the EU is the agenda. At its best it wants to duplicate the United States of America and be a United States of Europe. It is an impossible dream, you can’t be something you are not. America has advantages over the rest of the world that can’t be duplicated. Until Europe finds a way to have the Atlantic on one coast and the Pacific on another it can’t be America.
I could even buy into giving up sovereignty if I thought the EU would be an improvement but for all of their faults I believe in democracy and market forces.
Re the facts and figures and upcoming rule changes who really knows?
Ninety per cent of the EU business is done through COREPER a bunch of unelected officials. Their proceedings are classed as non-papers so can't be accessed by the press or public, which kind of goes against the EU's open information rules.

Generally you can spin or prove anything and they have hundreds of civil servants working on it. But if you use a little common sense or logic or even your own eyes you can see through it.
To go off subject, an example is the London congestion charge which I was fortunate to pay 5 days a week for years. My own eyes told me it hadn't cut congestion a jot despite the propaganda. But obviously that isn't proof against some government figures.
In the months leading up to its implementation road works went up left right and centre for no visible reason. Virtually the day after the charge started the roadworks magically disappeared. The first banner headline was the congestion charge cuts journey times. Clever eh!
Another big question is, if the congestion charge has taken so many cars off the road then why hasn't the revenue gone down significantly. Even taking into account the charge rises something doesn't add up. If it is a fine to reduce cars and it halves cars then its revenue is also going to roughly halve when it does. So they can make up one figure but forget that they have to amend another part of the sum. I’m sure they have dabbled but sometimes there is too much money to hide I guess.
If someone tells you crime figures are down but you and everyone you know and everyone they have spoken to is experiencing more crime, then it doesn’t add up and make that leap of logic that someone isn’t telling the truth here. And in who’s interest is it to lie.

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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So after all the BS thrown about.... Varadker has been played like a fiddle.....what a first class bozo.
The UK were never going to put up a border and Ireland and the EU said no way would they put one up well take a look at this ?.

http://www.melaniephillips.com/obvious- ... dpjOwLcuaE

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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kerry 6138 wrote:
waz-24-7 wrote:
Investment into job creation such as manufacturing which involves businesses moving production, jobs and benefits into the UK. This has a positive outcome for UK working citizens, society and upon inward spending on local services and welfare. This type of preferential investment is right now almost zero!!
.
https://tradingeconomics.com/united-kin ... yment-rate

Employment Rate in the United Kingdom increased to 75.80 percent in October from 75.70 percent in September of 2018. Employment Rate in the United Kingdom averaged 71.22 percent from 1971 until 2018, reaching an all time high of 75.80 percent in October of 2018 and a record low of 65.60 percent in March of 1983

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-45875599
Wages excluding bonuses have risen at their fastest pace in nearly 10 years, official figures show.
Pay rose by 3.1% in the three months to August, compared with a year ago, while inflation for the same period was 2.5%.
Last week, Bank of England chief economist Andy Haldane said he saw signs of a "new dawn" for wage growth


waz- But expect, in time, to experience more difficulty as you have lost the free right of passage in 27 countries within the Union. A particular issue if you live in unrecognized TRNC, directly linked to an EU state that holds serious animosity against you.


So we will be in the same position has nationals of the other 168 countries in the world,
How many 100s of pounds do you think a EU visa will be and how difficult are they going to be to obtain? will we need to travel to London and queue in the EU consulate or worse visit the consulates of all the remaining countries of EU has punishment for leaving the union?

All whilst we are in the European Union !!

We haven't left quite yet.

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
waz-24-7 wrote:
In addition compliance with European standards and directives is critical to winning business. Certainly the increasing nature of standards on products from food labelling to co 2 omissions to water quality are directives that the UK and BREXIT cannot escape. To trade offshore; UK business must comply and give customers what they want whether legally required or simply to attract trade.
Well as we have been in the EU for over 40 years and religiously follow all the standards and over regulation it applies then the goods that we export to them already meet those standards so no problem or hold ups there. Obviously they could get awkward but that will degenerate into a tit for tat and we have a 65 billion pound card to play.

If you have a new product and do not wish to jump through the EU loops of the correct curvature of a banana and suchlike then export it to one of the countries that isn't in a protectionist trading block and are thriving and racing past the EU.

Yes
All whilst we remain in the EU!!
The 65 billion spend is current and now certainly under review. . The UK will of course buy, if it comes to it, less European product and import from further afield.
The consequential cost implications and decline in service and choice will also have repercussions within the UK and indeed Europe. No winners but hey the UK selected divorce and hope the grass is greener. I fear the losses will be greater this side of the water and any tit for tat is no good to anyone except those out there simply enjoying the sun of course.

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by waz-24-7 »

turtle wrote:So after all the BS thrown about.... Varadker has been played like a fiddle.....what a first class bozo.
The UK were never going to put up a border and Ireland and the EU said no way would they put one up well take a look at this ?.

http://www.melaniephillips.com/obvious- ... dpjOwLcuaE
Firstly,
It is the EU that would put up a border to mark the divided customs union between N and S Ireland.
The Notion of a UK free trade customs union within Northern Ireland could not possibly work. The remainder of the UK will want to direct trade through Northern Ireland to avoid the difficulties in exporting directly to Europe. I expect also the said export goods would have to pass physically from North to South. Or we could make Wales and Scotland similar free trade areas or perhaps Wolverhampton too. We could build a tunnel under the North sea to help the flow of traffic. After all were going to have so much new money once EU contributions stop.
Its just like Google et al residing in Ireland to capitalize on advantageous tax laws.

It wont work in my opinion.

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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turtle wrote:Airbus is French, German and Spanish owned.....and in my opinion has been told in no uncertain terms that its future after Brexit does not reside in the UK.... can't do anything about that other than wave it good bye but I'm sure the 4000 employees will lean on the side of Brexit than the EU who have just pulled the rug from under them and done that purely to punnish them...... it's a dangerous game these people are playing.

If the UK remained in the EU and the current trading condition was maintained . Airbus would certainly remain in the UK and the 4000 employees would remain in work. To suggest these employees favour Brexit and blame the EU for this is preposterous. AS is the case for many. Exit from the customs union presents significant disadvantage to UK based business. It is EU businesses who are capitalizing on the new weakness within UK business. They are on the phone daily " hey come to France and well set you up here" "we'll even build you a factory"

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by turtle »

waz-24-7 wrote:
turtle wrote:Airbus is French, German and Spanish owned.....and in my opinion has been told in no uncertain terms that its future after Brexit does not reside in the UK.... can't do anything about that other than wave it good bye but I'm sure the 4000 employees will lean on the side of Brexit than the EU who have just pulled the rug from under them and done that purely to punnish them...... it's a dangerous game these people are playing.

If the UK remained in the EU and the current trading condition was maintained . Airbus would certainly remain in the UK and the 4000 employees would remain in work. To suggest these employees favour Brexit and blame the EU for this is preposterous. AS is the case for many. Exit from the customs union presents significant disadvantage to UK based business. It is EU businesses who are capitalizing on the new weakness within UK business. They are on the phone daily " hey come to France and well set you up here" "we'll even build you a factory"


Bribery and corruption to stop Brexit now then is it ?

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Possibly Turtle.
UK did it to attract NISSAN and TOYOTA.
SPAIN did it to attract FORD.

Its very well known that governments and even municipal regions or towns offer incentives to attract employment.
Mc Donalds have been known also to have offered incentives to authorities to win favour.

That's business I'm afraid.

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by kerry 6138 »

waz-24-7 wrote:
kerry 6138 wrote:
waz-24-7 wrote:
Investment into job creation such as manufacturing which involves businesses moving production, jobs and benefits into the UK. This has a positive outcome for UK working citizens, society and upon inward spending on local services and welfare. This type of preferential investment is right now almost zero!!
.
https://tradingeconomics.com/united-kin ... yment-rate

Employment Rate in the United Kingdom increased to 75.80 percent in October from 75.70 percent in September of 2018. Employment Rate in the United Kingdom averaged 71.22 percent from 1971 until 2018, reaching an all time high of 75.80 percent in October of 2018 and a record low of 65.60 percent in March of 1983

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-45875599
Wages excluding bonuses have risen at their fastest pace in nearly 10 years, official figures show.
Pay rose by 3.1% in the three months to August, compared with a year ago, while inflation for the same period was 2.5%.
Last week, Bank of England chief economist Andy Haldane said he saw signs of a "new dawn" for wage growth


waz- But expect, in time, to experience more difficulty as you have lost the free right of passage in 27 countries within the Union. A particular issue if you live in unrecognized TRNC, directly linked to an EU state that holds serious animosity against you.


So we will be in the same position has nationals of the other 168 countries in the world,
How many 100s of pounds do you think a EU visa will be and how difficult are they going to be to obtain? will we need to travel to London and queue in the EU consulate or worse visit the consulates of all the remaining countries of EU has punishment for leaving the union?

All whilst we are in the European Union !!

We haven't left quite yet.

record low of 65.60 percent in March of 1983 pre Brexit vote
reaching an all time high of 75.80 percent in October of 2018 - post brexit vote and despite projecct fear

Bank of England chief economist Andy Haldane said he saw signs of a "new dawn" for wage growth post brexit vote and despite projecct fear


Do I need to save for visa ?

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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I am encouraged by these figures.

The economics of wage growth is complex at best.
Certainly employment figures and the availability of work are factors within that complexity.

Wages growth and employment can be used as a benchmark of an economy under most circumstances.
BREXIT DEAL or NO DEAL is a most extraordinary set of circumstances.
The immediate change as of 29th March remains worrying to me any many many others.

The subject here is DEAL and democratic BREXIT OR NO DEAL and undemocratic CRASH OUT.

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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waz Airbus would certainly remain in the UK and the 4000 employees would remain in work. To suggest these employees favour Brexit and blame the EU for this is preposterous. AS is the case for many

How can you be so sure ?

The company employs around 13,000 people at two sites: Filton, where the engineering and design activity takes place along with some manufacturing, and Broughton, where other major wing component manufacturing and all wing assembly takes place.

Filton, south Gloucester -Turnout percentage 76.2%
Number of votes cast in favour of REMAIN was 74,928
Number of votes cast in favour of LEAVE was 83,405

Broughton, Flintshire - Turnout: 74.9%
number of votes cast in favour of Remain: 43.6%
number of votes cast in favour of Leave: 56.37%

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by kerry 6138 »

waz-24-7 wrote:I am encouraged by these figures.

The economics of wage growth is complex at best.
Certainly employment figures and the availability of work are factors within that complexity.

Wages growth and employment can be used as a benchmark of an economy under most circumstances.
BREXIT DEAL or NO DEAL is a most extraordinary set of circumstances.
The immediate change as of 29th March remains worrying to me any many many others.

The subject here is DEAL and democratic BREXIT OR NO DEAL and undemocratic CRASH OUT.
if the largest ever voter turn out majority was for leaving the EU and this was backed up by majority vote in parliament to trigger article 50 which stated in the event of no agreement on the withdrawl we would leave on the 29th march, when did this become undemocratic?

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by turtle »

waz-24-7 wrote:Possibly Turtle.
UK did it to attract NISSAN and TOYOTA.
SPAIN did it to attract FORD.

Its very well known that governments and even municipal regions or towns offer incentives to attract employment.
Mc Donalds have been known also to have offered incentives to authorities to win favour.

That's business I'm afraid.
Well well the EU breaking yet another one of its strict laws as and when it wants to.
There is no end to this crooked organisation.

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

quote="waz-24-7"]
I agree with the article in that tariffs is not the issue that UK based business faces. This can easily be overcome with diligent and prudent maneuvering.
My experience of trading with Europe for many years in a "just in time environment" which is massively competitive.
Is get the product to market. Meeting time line deliveries and maintaining a supply chain loop for customers. In addition compliance with European standards and directives is critical to winning business. Certainly the increasing nature of standards on products from food labelling to co 2 omissions to water quality are directives that the UK and BREXIT cannot escape. To trade offshore; UK business must comply and give customers what they want whether legally required or simply to attract trade.
[/quote]



Yes to trade offshore UK business must give customers what they want. I am hoping our businesses kind of realise that at any stage of the retail or service process that is a good idea!

I’m assuming what you are bringing up is the border friction nonsense cobbled up by our treasury and which some of our businesses have agreed to support.
Re the big businesses, obviously many love the EU. They get protected against international competition by the EU. Because of that they can absorb the cost of all the regulations. They have the money to lobby the EU regulative process and they also have access to the cheap labour the EU supplies through its open border policy. For small businesses leaving will be better and some of the larger businesses who have relied on the EU’s protectionism will have to get more efficient. Long term no country can stay in business protecting its companies from the reality of world trade.

So let’s have a look at this border friction.

Costs will rise at the border because of extra paperwork and lengthy inspections? Computerisation as manadated by WTO rules means that almost all cargoes are now cleared before reaching port.
Its illegal under WTO rules to have any but seamless, state-of-the-art, computerised procedures at the border under the WTO Trade Facilitation Agreement so they can’t block us like that. It’s illegal.

According to the World Bank Logistics Report the average developed country processed 98% of its trade without any border checks at all. The other 2% within a day.

Another suggested barrier will be claims from the EU that our exports do not satisfy required product standards. So on the twentieth of March our goods are fine and a fortnight later they won’t be?
Again under WTO rules this is illegal since existing product standards are already exactly obeyed. Off we go to win in court against an EU that prides itself on abiding by international laws.

As for the costs? The Swiss estimated their total EU-Swiss border costs being only 0.1% of trade value. They even factored in waiting time in queues. These costs are negligible.

waz-24-7 wrote:
All whilst we are in the European Union !!

We haven't left quite yet.


Sorry I’m unclear, are you giving credit to the EU for those employment figures? Seriously? You have given the EU credit for improving our economy from the seventies, conveniently forgetting Thatcher. The EU also are responsible for world peace. Forgetting NATO. Now our employment figures are down to the EU even though the employment figures in other EU countries are horrendous.
Fawlty Towers was written while we were in the EU, that down to them? The summers of 1976 and 1995?
waz-24-7 wrote: Wages growth and employment can be used as a benchmark of an economy under most circumstances.
BREXIT DEAL or NO DEAL is a most extraordinary set of circumstances.
Translation, I bought up employment figures to score a point and have been totally hammered so they are now irrelevant.

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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kerry 6138 wrote:waz Airbus would certainly remain in the UK and the 4000 employees would remain in work. To suggest these employees favour Brexit and blame the EU for this is preposterous. AS is the case for many

How can you be so sure ?

The company employs around 13,000 people at two sites: Filton, where the engineering and design activity takes place along with some manufacturing, and Broughton, where other major wing component manufacturing and all wing assembly takes place.

Filton, south Gloucester -Turnout percentage 76.2%
Number of votes cast in favour of REMAIN was 74,928
Number of votes cast in favour of LEAVE was 83,405

Broughton, Flintshire - Turnout: 74.9%
number of votes cast in favour of Remain: 43.6%
number of votes cast in favour of Leave: 56.37%

I cannot be sure of Airbus plans. The announcement this week suggests a plan is in place.
Two years ago there was indeed a vote in both the said regions.
People are allowed to change their minds if and when circumstances change.
Circumstances have most definitely changed and it would be fair to return to the people to seek approval of a DEAL or NO DEAL

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by waz-24-7 »

turtle wrote:
waz-24-7 wrote:Possibly Turtle.
UK did it to attract NISSAN and TOYOTA.
SPAIN did it to attract FORD.

Its very well known that governments and even municipal regions or towns offer incentives to attract employment.
Mc Donalds have been known also to have offered incentives to authorities to win favour.

That's business I'm afraid.
Well well the EU breaking yet another one of its strict laws as and when it wants to.
There is no end to this crooked organisation.
I do not know what law you refer to.
Crooked EU !!
Of course the UK is squeaky clean and it wouldn't dream of offering incentives to attract job creating businesses.
Problem is that soon the attraction is greatly diminished because of hinderance in access to the lucrative European market.

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by waz-24-7 »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:quote="waz-24-7"]
I agree with the article in that tariffs is not the issue that UK based business faces. This can easily be overcome with diligent and prudent maneuvering.
My experience of trading with Europe for many years in a "just in time environment" which is massively competitive.
Is get the product to market. Meeting time line deliveries and maintaining a supply chain loop for customers. In addition compliance with European standards and directives is critical to winning business. Certainly the increasing nature of standards on products from food labelling to co 2 omissions to water quality are directives that the UK and BREXIT cannot escape. To trade offshore; UK business must comply and give customers what they want whether legally required or simply to attract trade.


Yes to trade offshore UK business must give customers what they want. I am hoping our businesses kind of realise that at any stage of the retail or service process that is a good idea!

I’m assuming what you are bringing up is the border friction nonsense cobbled up by our treasury and which some of our businesses have agreed to support.
Re the big businesses, obviously many love the EU. They get protected against international competition by the EU. Because of that they can absorb the cost of all the regulations. They have the money to lobby the EU regulative process and they also have access to the cheap labour the EU supplies through its open border policy. For small businesses leaving will be better and some of the larger businesses who have relied on the EU’s protectionism will have to get more efficient. Long term no country can stay in business protecting its companies from the reality of world trade.

So let’s have a look at this border friction.

Costs will rise at the border because of extra paperwork and lengthy inspections? Computerisation as manadated by WTO rules means that almost all cargoes are now cleared before reaching port.
Its illegal under WTO rules to have any but seamless, state-of-the-art, computerised procedures at the border under the WTO Trade Facilitation Agreement so they can’t block us like that. It’s illegal.

According to the World Bank Logistics Report the average developed country processed 98% of its trade without any border checks at all. The other 2% within a day.

Another suggested barrier will be claims from the EU that our exports do not satisfy required product standards. So on the twentieth of March our goods are fine and a fortnight later they won’t be?
Again under WTO rules this is illegal since existing product standards are already exactly obeyed. Off we go to win in court against an EU that prides itself on abiding by international laws.

As for the costs? The Swiss estimated their total EU-Swiss border costs being only 0.1% of trade value. They even factored in waiting time in queues. These costs are negligible.

waz-24-7 wrote:
All whilst we are in the European Union !!

We haven't left quite yet.


Sorry I’m unclear, are you giving credit to the EU for those employment figures? Seriously? You have given the EU credit for improving our economy from the seventies, conveniently forgetting Thatcher. The EU also are responsible for world peace. Forgetting NATO. Now our employment figures are down to the EU even though the employment figures in other EU countries are horrendous.
Fawlty Towers was written while we were in the EU, that down to them? The summers of 1976 and 1995?
waz-24-7 wrote: Wages growth and employment can be used as a benchmark of an economy under most circumstances.
BREXIT DEAL or NO DEAL is a most extraordinary set of circumstances.
Translation, I bought up employment figures to score a point and have been totally hammered so they are now irrelevant.[/quote]


Any hindrance to trade however small will effect decision makers upon business location and investment.
The UK must attract business investment. WTO terms are not anyway as clear and frictionless as current EU trading union.
I expect loss of membership will discourage many from the UK. We hear already of a migration of jobs.
Look to the future. Is the UK an attractive option to come to? Its definitely less attractive if we are outside the EU customs union.

Employment figures and investment figures over next decade are rather more important than past 2 years as figures have been reported.
In 2016 the UK reported good growth and recovery from financial crisis of 2008.
We are about to enter the biggest change in our trading relationship with other nations in over 40 years. It is unknown territory and I am concerned and not encouraged by prospects given the massive competition for trade from all quarters of the world.

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by turtle »

waz-24-7 wrote:
turtle wrote:
waz-24-7 wrote:Possibly Turtle.
UK did it to attract NISSAN and TOYOTA.
SPAIN did it to attract FORD.

Its very well known that governments and even municipal regions or towns offer incentives to attract employment.
Mc Donalds have been known also to have offered incentives to authorities to win favour.

That's business I'm afraid.
Well well the EU breaking yet another one of its strict laws as and when it wants to.
There is no end to this crooked organisation.
I do not know what law you refer to.
Crooked EU !!
Of course the UK is squeaky clean and it wouldn't dream of offering incentives to attract job creating businesses.
Problem is that soon the attraction is greatly diminished because of hinderance in access to the lucrative European market.
Selective law choosing again I see...tut tut
https://www.mpravde.gov.rs/files/23_2_a ... uption.pdf

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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waz-24-7 wrote:

Two years ago there was indeed a vote in both the said regions.
People are allowed to change their minds if and when circumstances change.
Circumstances have most definitely changed and it would be fair to return to the people to seek approval of a DEAL or NO DEAL
Ah so you and the remainers have patiently waited for the circumstances changing before asking for another vote?

My memory is at about 9 a.m. on the 24th June 2016, the remainers were shocked that project fear hadn't worked and people had voted the wrong way because they weren't very bright and started asking for a do-over?
That not your or others memory?

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by waz-24-7 »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
waz-24-7 wrote:

Two years ago there was indeed a vote in both the said regions.
People are allowed to change their minds if and when circumstances change.
Circumstances have most definitely changed and it would be fair to return to the people to seek approval of a DEAL or NO DEAL
Ah so you and the remainers have patiently waited for the circumstances changing before asking for another vote?

My memory is at about 9 a.m. on the 24th June 2016, the remainers were shocked that project fear hadn't worked and people had voted the wrong way because they weren't very bright and started asking for a do-over?
That not your or others memory?
On the 24th June, some 2 years ago the position was very different. Many were hoodwinked into believing an exit would be simple and plain sailing.
Today the country is in political turmoil and a much clearer understanding is evident.

If Brexit is to be delivered then the current negotiated EXIT DEAL should be accepted and BREXIT is indeed delivered.
If Parliament seeks to block this then the people should again decide on what they want for their country.

What please is unfair or not democratic about that
?

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by Mowgli597 »

waz-24-7 wrote:
If Brexit is to be delivered then the current negotiated EXIT DEAL should be accepted and BREXIT is indeed delivered.
If Parliament seeks to block this then the people should again decide on what they want for their country.

What please is unfair or not democratic about that
?
Because the electorate might change its mind and vote to remain! That would then be called an INFORMED decision.

Heaven forbid we’d follow the Irish example

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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waz-24-7 wrote:
On the 24th June, some 2 years ago the position was very different. Many were hoodwinked into believing an exit would be simple and plain sailing.
Today the country is in political turmoil and a much clearer understanding is evident.

If Brexit is to be delivered then the current negotiated EXIT DEAL should be accepted and BREXIT is indeed delivered.
If Parliament seeks to block this then the people should again decide on what they want for their country.

What please is unfair or not democratic about that[/b]?
So the remainers didn't wake up at 9am the next day and immediately want another referendum ? Or 1pm for students of course

A deal that keeps us essentially in the EU isn't leave is it?

So if you vote for Corbyn at the next election and find that May is still prime minister but changed her blue rosette for a red rosette you'd be happy with that? Democracy had worked?

OK let's turn the question on it's head. Please give me say 3 circumstances under which you would leave the EU?
Are there any at all?

Obviously losing sovereignty isn't one.
If we have to take the Euro you are fine with that.
By staying in the EU our economy doesn't grow as quick as if we was out of it. Not a problem for you.

But there must be a few red lines?

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

Mowgli597 wrote:
Heaven forbid we’d follow the Irish example
The EU hate referendums, remember after the EU constitution was rejected in France and Holland they had to relabel it as the Lisbon Treaty so it could just be signed off by EU leaders. Sarkozy said at the time that "France was just ahead of all the other countries in voting no. It would happen in all member states if they had a referendum."

It was only put to a referendum in Ireland because the Irish constitution demands it. When the answer came back as no the EU which hates referendums demanded another one.
After 18 months of blackmail and bullying they got the answer they wanted.

Generally I find only despots ignore elections and referendums.

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by waz-24-7 »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
waz-24-7 wrote:
On the 24th June, some 2 years ago the position was very different. Many were hoodwinked into believing an exit would be simple and plain sailing.
Today the country is in political turmoil and a much clearer understanding is evident.

If Brexit is to be delivered then the current negotiated EXIT DEAL should be accepted and BREXIT is indeed delivered.
If Parliament seeks to block this then the people should again decide on what they want for their country.

What please is unfair or not democratic about that[/b]?
So the remainers didn't wake up at 9am the next day and immediately want another referendum ? Or 1pm for students of course

A deal that keeps us essentially in the EU isn't leave is it?

So if you vote for Corbyn at the next election and find that May is still prime minister but changed her blue rosette for a red rosette you'd be happy with that? Democracy had worked?

OK let's turn the question on it's head. Please give me say 3 circumstances under which you would leave the EU?
Are there any at all?

Obviously losing sovereignty isn't one.
If we have to take the Euro you are fine with that.
By staying in the EU our economy doesn't grow as quick as if we was out of it. Not a problem for you.

But there must be a few red lines?
3 circumstances.
Difficult but:
WAR within the Union.
A unified agreement to disband.
Aggressive expansionist regime.

3 circumstances to remain please?

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by waz-24-7 »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
waz-24-7 wrote:
On the 24th June, some 2 years ago the position was very different. Many were hoodwinked into believing an exit would be simple and plain sailing.
Today the country is in political turmoil and a much clearer understanding is evident.

If Brexit is to be delivered then the current negotiated EXIT DEAL should be accepted and BREXIT is indeed delivered.
If Parliament seeks to block this then the people should again decide on what they want for their country.

What please is unfair or not democratic about that[/b]?
So the remainers didn't wake up at 9am the next day and immediately want another referendum ? Or 1pm for students of course

A deal that keeps us essentially in the EU isn't leave is it?

So if you vote for Corbyn at the next election and find that May is still prime minister but changed her blue rosette for a red rosette you'd be happy with that? Democracy had worked?

OK let's turn the question on it's head. Please give me say 3 circumstances under which you would leave the EU?
Are there any at all?

Obviously losing sovereignty isn't one.
If we have to take the Euro you are fine with that.
By staying in the EU our economy doesn't grow as quick as if we was out of it. Not a problem for you.

But there must be a few red lines?
3 circumstances.
Difficult but:
WAR within the Union.
A unified agreement to disband.
Aggressive expansionist regime.

3 circumstances to remain please?

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by turtle »

Nope sorry can't think of a single one.

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by waz-24-7 »

turtle wrote:Nope sorry can't think of a single one.
T
I was responding to ETS in fact. He asked the question.

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

waz-24-7 wrote:
3 circumstances.
Difficult but:
WAR within the Union.
A unified agreement to disband.
Aggressive expansionist regime.

3 circumstances to remain please?[/quote]

OK so war breaks out and you think you just tiptoe away? Or war breaks out and you leave your brothers and allies in the lurch?
The unified agreement to disband will be last one out gets the bill. Or do you mean that you need permission to leave?
As for the aggressive expansion, why do they need to be aggressive you will just give anything to them they just have to ask.

I would remain if I thought that we ultimately we have at least some say in our affairs or I thought that economically it was in our best interests and they decided to become democratic and transparent in their dealings.
I want to leave because I believe in sovereignty free trade and democracy. If that makes me old fashioned, then guilty. If wanting to trade openly with the rest of the world makes an isolationist then so be it.

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

waz-24-7 wrote:
turtle wrote:Nope sorry can't think of a single one.
T
I was responding to ETS in fact. He asked the question.
Must say I thought considering an under performing economic performance, losing our sovereignty, massive unemployment on the continent, the rise of the far right and the very strong likelihood of being bounced into the Euro amongst other stealth moves in the future doesn't seem to phase you wanting to be in the EU I thought you might just limit your answer to nuclear holocaust but I guess you had to come up with three.
It seems that despite you accusing leavers of being totally selfish in their desire to leave the EU the only factor for you is keeping your business afloat in the near and protectionist EU.

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Re: DEAL or NO DEAL on Brexit

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Post by waz-24-7 »

ETS
I think that you are being rather hypocritical in you view.
Lets face it.
You have chosen to leave the UK and reside in the TRNC which is essentially European.
I am not overly bothered over your stance over currency and sovereignty. The World moves very fast indeed and your views, in my opinion, simply want to look backwards and hold onto the past.
Migration of people, the movement and dynamic nature of trade and business has left you behind. Perhaps living in Cyprus explains this given its somewhat unique position within the modern trading World.

Yes I am indeed concerned. Many people and businesses clearly are. People that work in , live in and trade from and within the UK.
There is no shame it protecting ones livelihood. I'm afraid that preaching from one that has departed UK shores to reside in a region that is clearly distasteful in many respects is rather hypocritical and therefore I am very reluctant to consider your point of view as very credible or worth attention.

If the UK crashes out. You will likely be very little effected. Your UK family possibly if they remain within the UK. That is something you will deal with and you should surely explain to them why you left UK shores yet dealt a card that could cause them some level of hardship.

Who knows. I may be totally wrong and in 60 odd days we will all be bathing in milk and have wealth and prosperity like never before. Certainly the prosperity that BREXIT has promised has no factual basis.

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