The lisbon treaty - a poll

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Does the Lisbon treaty say the UK has already agreed that the UK must join the Euro by 2022

No I do not believe this
28
78%
Yes I do believe this
2
6%
I care but am not sure if it says this or not
1
3%
I do not care
5
14%
 
Total votes: 36

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The lisbon treaty - a poll

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Post by erol »

I am genuinely curious so have created this poll. I have voted "No I do not believe this"

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Post by martandjen »

As far as I'm aware, the UK obtained an "opt-out" for having the EURO under the "Maastricht Treaty in 1992.

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Post by Mowgli597 »

https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-countries-euro-2020/

In brief:

Claim:
All EU members have to adopt the Euro after 2020.

Conclusion:
Incorrect. The UK and Denmark have opt-outs so don’t have to join the Euro. The seven countries without an opt-out and not already in the Euro are supposed to join it, but only once they meet certain conditions. There is currently no time limit on this process.

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Post by erol »

There is a 'document' (see here for one example https://www.facebook.com/LBC/posts/10156995473506558 ) that has been widely posted and reposted and reposted over and over again all over the internet , leading up to the referendum and after, that makes this claim along with countless other erroneous claims about the Lisbon treaty. It was posted here just the other day for example. I was curious to see if anyone actually was 'fooled' by such claims which is why I created this poll.

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Post by Mowgli597 »

From the same website addressing this list:

https://fullfact.org/europe/viral-list-about-lisbon-treaty-wrong/

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Re: The lisbon treaty - a poll

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

erol wrote:I am genuinely curious so have created this poll. I have voted "No I do not believe this"
Here's a question Erol, lets say that the EU said as the UK have been messing us around you can only remain in the EU if you take on the Euro within 3 years. Would you stay in under those circumstances?

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Post by erol »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
erol wrote:I am genuinely curious so have created this poll. I have voted "No I do not believe this"
Here's a question Erol, lets say that the EU said as the UK have been messing us around you can only remain in the EU if you take on the Euro within 3 years. Would you stay in under those circumstances?
No I would not. Under those circumstances I would support leaving the EU,

But let us be clear and truthful here. The EU can not do this, they just can not. It is just not legally possible without the UK's consent. We are currently , even having triggered article 50, a full member with a cast iron legal exemption from the Euro. Only with our consent, whilst we remain a member under current agreements, could that happen. If and when we leave, should we subsequently decided to rejoin then it will be a requirement that we adopt the euro. So really your hypothetical question is, to me, pretty meaningless, as it just can not happen anyway.

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

erol wrote:
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
erol wrote:I am genuinely curious so have created this poll. I have voted "No I do not believe this"
Here's a question Erol, lets say that the EU said as the UK have been messing us around you can only remain in the EU if you take on the Euro within 3 years. Would you stay in under those circumstances?
No I would not. Under those circumstances I would support leaving the EU,

But let us be clear and truthful here. The EU can not do this, they just can not. It is just not legally possible without the UK's consent. We are currently , even having triggered article 50, a full member with a cast iron legal exemption from the Euro. Only with our consent, whilst we remain a member under current agreements, could that happen. If and when we leave, should we subsequently decided to rejoin then it will be a requirement that we adopt the euro. So really your hypothetical question is, to me, pretty meaningless, as it just can not happen anyway.
No it's relevant, for "the project" to work all the members have to be in the Euro. After all Cornwall and Texas don't have their own currency. So be under no illusions we will end up in the Euro at some point. The driving forces behind the United States of Europe have proved themselves to be patient. There are only commas never full stops.
I asked Waz the same question and basically he wants to stay in the EU under any circumstances so he said yes.

Remainers can try and point out that the Eurozone has grown although it has grown at a slower rate than most other countries that aren't in it and various other falacies. But their one sticking point is the Euro which has been a disaster. So they can tuck that away saying it will never happen.

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Post by turtle »

Erol, I have to say that the question in your childish poll is a little erroneous and somewhat misleading to the readers.
The bullet points I posted in the now closed thread at no point says the UK had agreed to the joining of the Euro... now if your poll had said something on the lines of" Do you think the UK at some point in the future will be required to join the Euro if they stay in the EU" then I think that voters may vote a different way.

I posted on the closed thread at the same time it was closed so it didn't make it on there but what I said was .... You keep claiming that a No Deal conclusion to Brexit was my preferred option and I challenged you to show one of my posts that says anything of the sort...go on find that post .

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Post by Mowgli597 »

http://www.kibkomnorthcyprusforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=71&t=45553#p225429
turtle wrote:
waz-24-7 wrote:
PoshinDevon wrote:The people have decided......they voted leave.

Amazing that more than two years on this still hasn’t registered with some.

That is accepted but only so far as 2 years ago the facts, risks and outcome was very badly presented and many were hoodwinked into thinking everything would be rosy. Personally I saw this type of mess developing as the BREXTEERS departed the limelight, failed to lead and left Mrs May to try and secure a deal.
The question has to be asked. Why is the UK parliament ( democratically elected) so unilaterally against the BREXIT deal that our PM puts forward.

It is very clear that a peoples vote is firmly on the agendas.
I can see very little response to my question.

DEAL or NO DEAL or PEOPLES VOTE. And why?
OK Waz....NO DEAL....that clear enough for you.
I debated the running away of Brexiteers with you after the vote and you wouldn't listen so I will say it again...Mrs May didn't include the likes of Farage did she...what is he supposed to do march into number 10 and demand inclusion . She lost the heavyweight brexiteers in the cabinet by her Chequers deal then lost another Brexit secretary in Rabb by not including him so what are they supposed to do....tie her to a chair and gag her?

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Post by turtle »

The fact that Waz gave me 3 shitty choices does not mean NO Deal is my preferred option ? it was the one i would choose if a gun was to my head?

I do not want a No deal like most other people but the choices that are really not choices don't really count,.. for the record my preferred choice is a better deal properly negotiated between the UK and the EU. The may deal is not accepted by anyone...a No Deal is going to hurt and a Peoples vote is a sell out.

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Post by erol »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote: No it's relevant, for "the project" to work all the members have to be in the Euro. After all Cornwall and Texas don't have their own currency. So be under no illusions we will end up in the Euro at some point. The driving forces behind the United States of Europe have proved themselves to be patient. There are only commas never full stops.
For me this a nonsense argument , as far as I understand it. You say we muse leave now because at some point in the future we will be force to join the euro against our will. I say we can not be forced to do so but if I am wrong, then let's just wait until we are forced to do so against our will and then leave at that time. You want us to leave now because of something that might happen. I say wait until it happens. The EU has not manged to do so to date, yet according to you we must leave now because at some unspecified point in the future by some unspecified means the EU will make us do it. Like I say not much of an argument from where I am sitting.

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Post by Mowgli597 »

turtle wrote:The fact that Waz gave me 3 shitty choices does not mean NO Deal is my preferred option ? it was the one i would choose if a gun was to my head?

I do not want a No deal like most other people but the choices that are really not choices don't really count,.. for the record my preferred choice is a better deal properly negotiated between the UK and the EU. The may deal is not accepted by anyone...a No Deal is going to hurt and a Peoples vote is a sell out.
Apologies so. It seemed as though that was your choice.

Was the May deal not one “properly negotiated between [the leader of the government of] the U.K. and the EU”? If not then who does the negotiating and who decides if those negotiations are “proper”. Surely that’s the job of the democratically elected government. A “democratic referendum” is simply something that shows the will of the nation (in theory only one person’s vote could decide the result). But parliament (or rather the government of the day which is NOT elected) could choose to ignore that referendum result if it wishes.

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Post by erol »

turtle wrote:Erol, I have to say that the question in your childish poll is a little erroneous and somewhat misleading to the readers.
The bullet points I posted in the now closed thread at no point says the UK had agreed to the joining of the Euro... now if your poll had said something on the lines of" Do you think the UK at some point in the future will be required to join the Euro if they stay in the EU" then I think that voters may vote a different way.
Your copy pasted post talks about the Lisbon Treaty. The Lisbon Treaty has ALREADY been signed and agreed by the UK. The post then goes on to claim that, under the terms of this treaty that the UK has already signed and agreed
3: All member states must adopt the Euro by 2022 and any new member state must do so within 2 years of joining the EU as laid down in the Lisbon treaty.
This is just not true. There is nothing in the Lisbon treaty that says this. The post you copy stated does NOT say in the future the UK will be asked / pressured / forced to consent to all member states, including the UK, having to join the EURO. It says that is what is in the Lisbon treaty that we have ALREADY signed and agreed to and it is a big fat blatant lie. I posted the poll because I was curious as to how many people believed this lie. You call that childish. If wanting to get some idea as to how many people might have been affected by the lies that you are helping to spread is childish , then so be it.
turtle wrote:You keep claiming that a No Deal conclusion to Brexit was my preferred option and I challenged you to show one of my posts that says anything of the sort...go on find that post .
Look if I am wrong and 'no deal' exit is not your preferred option, then all you have to do is say what your preferred option is. Simples. However if your preffered option is some pie in the sky , impossible to achieve deal, then it is not really worth much is it ?

You keep saying MP's are thwarting the will of the people. So what do you think MP's should have done. Voted for TM's deal ? If yes then the biggest block to that is the ERG. If no, not May's deal and not 'no deal' then just wtf is it that you think they should have supported.

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Post by erol »

turtle wrote:I do not want a No deal like most other people but the choices that are really not choices don't really count,.. for the record my preferred choice is a better deal properly negotiated between the UK and the EU. The may deal is not accepted by anyone...a No Deal is going to hurt and a Peoples vote is a sell out.
So your preferred deal is one 'properly negotiated between the UK and the EU' is it. What does that mean ? You mean a deal like the leaver campaigners promised us we could get before the referendum ? A deal where we get all the advantages of leaving the EU but retain all benefits of being in the EU that we like ? Is that what you mean by a 'properly negotiated deal' ? And if that deal is impossible to get agreement from the EU from .. what then is you fall back plan / position ? No Deal ?

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

erol wrote: For me this a nonsense argument , as far as I understand it. You say we muse leave now because at some point in the future we will be force to join the euro against our will. I say we can not be forced to do so but if I am wrong, then let's just wait until we are forced to do so against our will and then leave at that time. You want us to leave now because of something that might happen. I say wait until it happens. The EU has not manged to do so to date, yet according to you we must leave now because at some unspecified point in the future by some unspecified means the EU will make us do it. Like I say not much of an argument from where I am sitting.
Where have I said we must leave now because we will be forced to join the Euro? I have said we must leave but be under no illusions that if we remain we will join the Euro at some point. That is not the same thing.
It is amusing how the experts who informed us that we would fall into an economic abyss if we didn’t join the Euro now keep very quiet.

So how do you envisage the EU going? We stay as this loose union, like we stayed as a trading union?
Everything points to a Union of European States i,e, One Nation, If we become one nation then you aren't going to have states with their own currency are you? It can't work like that.

So lets say we face the choice in 15 years? So another 15 years of becoming more and more in-bedded in the union so it becomes more difficult or impossible to leave. Had we had left in 1975 we would have had very few of the problems we now face.

Even if you are naive enough to believe that it is not a political project who's ultimate aim is one nation. Economically the EU has performed poorly and all signs are that it will only get worse.
Yes a lot of our trade is with the EU but that is a self-fulfilling prophesy. If you sign up to a mobile contract with vodaphone then you will make the majority of your mobile phone calls with vodaphone.
The EU economy has grown but then so has virtually every other economy around the world. By and large by more than the EU.

Has the EU stopped another European war? No that is down to NATO and nuclear weapons.

Wanting to leave the EU is xenophobic or racist?
I would say that it is more xenophobic to wish to deal with your immediate neighbours than to trade around the world.
As for racism let’s use some common sense. We have unemployment in the UK. Amongst the hardest hit by that unemployment are young black kids so they might have the view that we would rather employ white Eastern Europeans than black British kids.

Another theme is how more expensive things will be out of the EU. But that ignores the fact that if South African oranges are cheaper than Spanish oranges then the Spanish will ensure that the EU puts a tariff on the South African oranges until they are more expensive than Spanish oranges. The EU is a group of nations fighting for their own self interest.
Again lets look at racism and xenophobia. If Ethiopia's only route out of poverty was the export of say cheap oranges to the EU then they would have a nice fat tariff put on them to ensure that they wouldn't outsell Spain's oranges and so that route out of poverty would be closed off.

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Post by turtle »

The May deal was negotiated in the main by Oliver Robbins (Pro EU) and his team of Civil Servants...Badly in my opinion and the deal was agreed & signed by Mrs May then brought back to Parliament but on the way she lost 2 Brexit secretaries ( we will know the truth on these resignations soon enough.)
Don't you think that it just might have been a good idea to bring the deal back home and put it to Parliament BEFORE signing it and asking the 600 odd MPs if it were worth accepting first... No she didn't do that.... why? Was she poorly advised by the raving remainer Olly Robbins or did she have a gun to her head by the EU to accept and sign before she could ask Parliament.... who knows.

For what it is worth I think the negotiations should have done by people who actually wanted to leave and were prepared to negotiate on those terms hence Davis and Rabb disposed of.

So we now have a Deal which has bombed twice and will bomb again when she brings it back, Is No Deal on or off the table who knows (can't remember that on the ballot paper in 2016) Hundreds of thousands marching today in London to force a second referendum( Can't remember that on the ballot paper either). I also can't remember Yvette Cooper on the ballot paper saying to a majority of 70% of her constituents up yours I will do what I want either.
The EU have us by the short and curlies as we have caved in and shown them our hand at every turn...poor poor negotiating tactics.
So really my question is if Mrs May is prepared to lose 2 Brexit Ministers and a Foreign Secretary but leave Olly Robbins in place should really tell us all we need to know.
My gut feeling is that Brexit will not happen now and the people who are responsible will have to live with the consequences because I'm sure as hell things won't end there.

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Re: The lisbon treaty - a poll

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

turtle wrote:
The EU have us by the short and curlies as we have caved in and shown them our hand at every turn...poor poor negotiating tactics.
With the government unable to get a resolution through that we will leave under a no deal if forced then we have no bargaining power.

As an experiment the next time you go to buy a car inform the salesman that whatever happens you will not leave his showroom until you have bought a car from him. Then ask him for a discount. Good luck!

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EnjoyingTheSun wrote: Where have I said we must leave now because we will be forced to join the Euro? I have said we must leave but be under no illusions that if we remain we will join the Euro at some point. That is not the same thing.
Are you sure you do not mean if we stay in the EU be under no illusion that at some point we will chose to join the Euro ? If so, then all you seem to be doing is seeking to deny future generations that choice. If on the other hand you are saying that if we stay in the EU be under no illusions that we will be forced to join the euro against our will - then I say that is just 'project fear' to the max. So which is it ?
EnjoyingTheSun wrote: So how do you envisage the EU going? We stay as this loose union, like we stayed as a trading union?
Everything points to a Union of European States i,e, One Nation, If we become one nation then you aren't going to have states with their own currency are you? It can't work like that.
Again this is all based on 'future prophecy' by you. It is the same thing. The EU treaties exist as they do today. We are being asked do we want to leave today. Yes in the future (in a hypothetical scenario that the UK remains) the EU may and probably will seek to move to ever closer integration and that will require treaty change. At that point if the UK does not want further integration , then it does not sign the treaty and or it leaves the EU then. I have already stated I would welcome a law mandating a referendum on any such change. If we do not like it then do not sign it or leave then. To argue that we must leave now because now we do not like such further integration is to me madness and an attempt to stop future generations from having that choice.
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:So lets say we face the choice in 15 years? So another 15 years of becoming more and more in-bedded in the union so it becomes more difficult or impossible to leave. Had we had left in 1975 we would have had very few of the problems we now face.
We can not get any more 'embedded' in any sort of fundamental way without treaty change. There can not be treaty change without our consent. From where I sit you are saying that the electorate today must make this decision now to stop the electorate of the future making wrong decisions in 15 years time. That to me really is fundamentally undemocratic. Let the electorate decide at the time any change is proposed, when they know exactly what the proposed changes are. Saying we must decide now, not knowing what the proposed changes will be but on the assumption that the electorate today will not like them is madness to my mind.

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turtle wrote:The May deal was negotiated in the main by Oliver Robbins (Pro EU) and his team of Civil Servants...
And is that the fault of MP's who voted to remain in the referendum ? Or is it TM's fault ?
turtle wrote:Don't you think that it just might have been a good idea to bring the deal back home and put it to Parliament BEFORE signing it and asking the 600 odd MPs if it were worth accepting first... No she didn't do that.... why?
So why do you blame MP's that voted to remain in the referendum for that not happening ?
turtle wrote:Was she poorly advised by the raving remainer Olly Robbins or did she have a gun to her head by the EU to accept and sign before she could ask Parliament.... who knows.
So why to you blame MP's that voted to remain in the referendum for that ? Why not blame TM and Olly Robbins ?
turtle wrote:For what it is worth I think the negotiations should have done by people who actually wanted to leave and were prepared to negotiate on those terms hence Davis and Rabb disposed of.
That they were not done by such is who's fault ? Will you blame MPs who voted remain in the referendum for that ?
turtle wrote:So we now have a Deal which has bombed twice and will bomb again when she brings it back, Is No Deal on or off the table who knows (can't remember that on the ballot paper in 2016)
Indeed it was NOT on the ballot paper, so there is no clear 'will of the people' for no deal. The only way to show there is such a will amongst a majority of the people would be to ask them in a referendum - but that is something you do not want - or have I got you wrong there again ? Without any clear direction from the people via a referendum, then the decision as to if a no deal exit is to be pursued is down to parliament and it has made its views on that clear. Being against a no deal exit does not mean you must therefore be trying to thwart exit entirely. Parliament has (finally 2 years too late) been asked to make that decision and it has made it. Of course there are those that still even now have hopes of achieving a no deal exit by manipulating the process, despite there being no clear mandate for that from the people and despite parliament having shown that it not the will of parliament. I think we all know who these people are and they are not MPs that voted to remain in the referendum.
turtle wrote: Hundreds of thousands marching today in London to force a second referendum
Is that not their right in a free and democratic nation ?
turtle wrote:I also can't remember Yvette Cooper on the ballot paper saying to a majority of 70% of her constituents up yours I will do what I want either.
I do not understand what you think she has done ? What vote did she make, that if she had voted differently would have avoided the "ooops" show we are in right now any different ? If she has betrayed her constituents then she will be voted out. A chance for the people to have that choice now was stopped - basically by the ERG in my view.
turtle wrote:The EU have us by the short and curlies as we have caved in and shown them our hand at every turn...poor poor negotiating tactics.
So really my question is if Mrs May is prepared to lose 2 Brexit Ministers and a Foreign Secretary but leave Olly Robbins in place should really tell us all we need to know. My gut feeling is that Brexit will not happen now and the people who are responsible will have to live with the consequences because I'm sure as hell things won't end there.
I just do not understand why you blame MPs that voted for remain in the referendum. Surely the blame for this lies firstly and squarely with TM and then by extension to some much much smaller degree the conservative party who vote her in as leader. Was it Yvette Cooper or any other remain voting MP that made TM do what she did ? Was it them that made the conservative party make her leader ?

You are pissed off. I understand that. I am pissed off. You think the whole thing has been handled badly. I understand that and I think it has been handled badly. Where I disagree with you is that 'those responsible' are any and all MPs that voted to remain in the referendum. Those responsible are TM and the conservatives MP that elected her leader. I also blame the likes of the ERG for being unwilling to compromise of the type and form of Brexit and trying to achieve a form of Brexit that suited them knowing that there was no a mandate for the people for it (or parliament), for without them behaving in such a manner TM may not have made some of the disastrous errors she has done by trying to pander to them, even though they are a minority of a minority government.

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Re: The lisbon treaty - a poll

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Post by turtle »

erol wrote:
I just do not understand why you blame MPs that voted for remain in the referendum. Surely the blame for this lies firstly and squarely with TM and then by extension to some much much smaller degree the conservative party who vote her in as leader. Was it Yvette Cooper or any other remain voting MP that made TM do what she did ? Was it them that made the conservative party make her leader ?

You are pissed off. I understand that. I am pissed off. You think the whole thing has been handled badly. I understand that and I think it has been handled badly. Where I disagree with you is that 'those responsible' are any and all MPs that voted to remain in the referendum. Those responsible are TM and the conservatives MP that elected her leader. I also blame the likes of the ERG for being unwilling to compromise of the type and form of Brexit and trying to achieve a form of Brexit that suited them knowing that there was no a mandate for the people for it (or parliament), for without them behaving in such a manner TM may not have made some of the disastrous errors she has done by trying to pander to them, even though they are a minority of a minority government.
You are dammed right I am pissed off and so is half the country and yes i do blame TM for signing a deal that is the worst one we could have without bringing it back first and yes the MPs who voted remain...ok they are free to vote for what they want but then to represent a constituency with a completely different view is simply not on and unacceptable as for the ERG they are the only ones in the house who have stuck to the wishes of the referendum.....what have they done for you to be so critical of them....be right wing ?
Tell me how many do you think of the scab MPs will will lose their seats at the next election ? I have a very dear friend who lives in Normanton West Yorks and the 70% leave voters are seething and one thing I would probably predict is that Ms Cooper will soon be joining her husband on Strictly come dancing.
Just one other Thought....If there is another Referendum and remain wins what do you think will happen ?

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Re: The lisbon treaty - a poll

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turtle wrote: You are dammed right I am pissed off and so is half the country...
You think only half ? You think only those who voted leave are pissed off ? You think they have a monopoly on anger ? This whole fiasco has already cost me personally since minutes after the vote result and three years in what do with have to show for it ? So far sweet FA.
turtle wrote: ... and yes the MPs who voted remain...ok they are free to vote for what they want but then to represent a constituency with a completely different view is simply not on and unacceptable
I still do not know what it is you think these MP's should have voted for differently in the commons or done in the commons differently that would have meant we were today not in this mess ? To me it seems you are pissed off with them for no other reason than they did not agree with you that we should leave the EU.
turtle wrote:as for the ERG they are the only ones in the house who have stuck to the wishes of the referendum.....what have they done for you to be so critical of them....be right wing ?
I do not think their objective has ever been to ensure we achieve an exit from the EU that could or would be acceptable to a majority of the country. I think their objective has always been to achieve only the hardest form of Brexit possible and nothing else with no regard what so ever as to if that had majority support in the country or not. Having got, against their expectations, a majority for leave I think they have then constantly sought to try and 'manipulate the process', to plot and plan, to try and gain a very specific and minority form of exit, one that is designed not just to get us out of the EU but that is designed to make it impossible for us to change our minds for generations to come even if there was 90% + support for such in the future. If I ask myself what could they have done differently that means we would not be in the mess we are now, as I ask you re leave voting MPS, I can think very easily of an answer to that. Had they not been determined to achieve the most maximal form of exit possible and nothing else, then TM would not have had to set the red lines she did in order to pander to them, in a futile effort to keep the Tory party from rupturing. A deal would have been brokered with the EU that would have contained some form of continuation in some for of customs union for now and it would have passed in the house of commons and we would now be set to be out of the EU in 6 days time and this could have all been done and dusted months ago, ending the damaging uncertainty. Yes there are those , your self included perhaps, that would claim this is BRINO but I do not believe that these people would be anything but a minority. I think the majority who voted leave would have accepted this outcome as not perfect perhaps but acceptable, freeing us as it would from having to pay in to the EU, giving us the ability to restrict EU migration to the UK, freeing us from EU legislation and ECJ on everything except stuff related to whatever form of customs union we were remaining in, whilst not stopping us from leaving that customs union down the line in a manged way should we chose to. What is more I think a majority of those who voted remain, MP's or public, would have been able to support this form of exit, accepting that there was a vote to leave even though that was not their preference (as I would). For those that continue to insist would have been BRINO and a betrayal of the referendum result I would simply ask if this would be BRINO for the UK, why does Turkey not consider itself to be in the EU in all but name, why does the EU not consider Turkey to be in the EU in all but name and why does and has no one ever claimed Turkey is in the EU in all but name. I think the ERG are extremists and a minority - I think the British people do not live on mass on the extremes. I think they are no different from the extremists at the other end of the spectrum, who are also a minority - those who would not countenance any form of exit from the EU at all. However unlike the extreme at the other end of the spectrum, given the result of the last election, the ERG have had means to try and force their minority, hard line, extreme version on the entire UK as well as the will. That is why I blame them. I blame the extremists, at BOTH ends, in short and the ERG are and have always been at the most extreme end of the spectrum.
turtle wrote:Tell me how many do you think of the scab MPs will will lose their seats at the next election ?
There you go again, calling MP's who had a different opinion to you 'scabs' seemingly for no other reason that hey had a different opinion to you. This is exactly the kind of polarised and polarising extreme behaviour that I reject and I think it against the nature of the overwhelming majority of the British people. I think every current MP is at risk whenever the next general election gets called and who knows it could be in days. I think it is just as likely that the electorate will punish the likes of Boris Johnson and Mogg as they are to punish Cooper. They have ALL failed imo and they all will have to face their electorates for the mess we are in. I think that those MPS that quit labour and conservatives, if they can get their acts together in time and field candidates in all seats could do surprisingly well. I think the british people are fed up not just with brexit but with this whole polarising and extremism in politics. I think the majority live in the middle and always have done.
turtle wrote:Just one other Thought....If there is another Referendum and remain wins what do you think will happen ?
I think it depends on what the question is to a large degree but I do not think that the project fear suggestions of some in such a case are likely. I do not think it will make the death of democracy in the UK, with wide scale rioting in the streets and the destruction of the social fabric of the UK. I think the British people will just keep on going on, in their non extreme way - because you know what I actually believe in and have faith in the British people on the whole.

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Re: The lisbon treaty - a poll

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I am really confused about your support of MPs who go against the wishes of the constituents, the whole purpose of their job in this is to carry out the wish of the majority yet you defend MPs who simply treat them with contempt and carry on their business to further their own ends.
The fact that they opposed Brexit does not give them the right to change that democratically arrived at decision.
You disapproval of the ERG does not surprise me in the least and the fact that they have some backbone to see this thing through needs praise not criticism in my view.
It appears from what you have written that you may have accepted the referendum decision but then hope that the leave bit is then watered down to a large degree so that it is finally so soft that it is BRINO
Remain MPs have thrown everything at this for self induced gratification you only have to take the actions of the SNP in Parliament to see that.
I would guess that British democracy has taken an almighty hit now and will be years before it's restored to any kind of acceptance
You have much more faith in the British system than I do.

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Re: The lisbon treaty - a poll

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Post by waz-24-7 »

Given the current political turmoil this type of poll holds little interest,

UK Democracy is under immense pressure after a referendum of 3 years ago has failed to materialize as voted for.
The Democratically elected government cannot deliver and are under pressure to go back to the people to determine a favored (democratic) path through the current turmoil, uncertainty, and confusion. This is the correct thing to do in my opinion.

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Re: The lisbon treaty - a poll

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Post by waz-24-7 »

I just looked out of curiosity.
0ver 4.5 million people have signed the cancel article 50 petition.
The biggest ever following on a political petition.
Not sure how many people marched in London but it looked very big on the News.

Hope the government will heed the level of intent. Brexit is clearly on the rocks and it needs the peoples intervention to pave the way forward.

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Re: The lisbon treaty - a poll

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turtle wrote:I am really confused about your support of MPs who go against the wishes of the constituents, the whole purpose of their job in this is to carry out the wish of the majority yet you defend MPs who simply treat them with contempt and carry on their business to further their own ends.
Again I ask what has Yvette Cooper voted on in the commons since the referendum that you think has been against the majority ? Did she vote against triggering article 50 ? (no she did not). So show me one single vote she made that was against and in contempt of the will of the people. I think Yvette Cooper is clearly not acting out of 'self interest' at all. I think she is one of a small minority that actually is trying to put the best interests of the country ahead of personal self interest and party interest. If all she cared about was her own self interest and maintaining her seat then, then it would be easy to behave like a Mogg lite. Clearly, to me, she is not doing this.
turtle wrote:The fact that they opposed Brexit does not give them the right to change that democratically arrived at decision.
Show me some actual 'action' - something she has actually done (or lack of action, something she has not done but should have) that shows she is trying to 'change the democratically arrived at decision' cause all you seem to have so far is hot air and bluster combined with hatred.
turtle wrote:You disapproval of the ERG does not surprise me in the least and the fact that they have some backbone to see this thing through needs praise not criticism in my view.
Where you see 'backbone' all I see is a refusal to compromise at all their own minority maximalist demands and wants with no regard what so ever for the damage that does to the country. They will risk everything and anything , including revocation of article 50, to try and achieve a form of Brexit that in my view does not have majority support in government, in Parliament or in the populace.
turtle wrote:It appears from what you have written that you may have accepted the referendum decision but then hope that the leave bit is then watered down to a large degree so that it is finally so soft that it is BRINO
What I have accepted is reality. The reality that whilst 17.4 million people voted for brexit 16 million did not. The reality that whatever happens we will all still have to live together. The reality that without a way forward that can command a majority in parliament , this nightmare will go on and on. More than anything I just want an end to this and I do not think that is a minority opinion. There was NOT a vote for leave the EU and leave the single market and leave any form of customs union. There was a vote to leave - that is it. You can not legitimately claim that a majority consider exiting the EU whilst maintaining some kind of customs union is BRINO - but that has not, does not and no doubt will not stop you and others making that claim none the less. I am sick to the death of people telling me that the will of the people means this or that or the other when this or that or the other is anything other than 'to leave'. Any claim that it is the will of the people to leave this way, or that way or the other way is BS and comes from those who do not respect the will of the people but merely seek to abuse it to get what they want.

Government after 3 years has failed to find a way through this. Parliament has failed to find a way through this. What other option is there to break the deadlock other than asking the people to break the deadlock ?

Ask the people 'do you support leaving the EU without a deal'. If they say yes , then lets just leave and move on. Done and dusted. I will shut the f up and move on. If however there is not then I expect all those calling for a no deal exit to also shut the f up.

If there is no majority for leaving with a no deal exit, then ask 'do you support revoking article 50 and remaining in the EU'. If there is then lets just move on.

If there is not then ask the people 'do you support leaving the EU but remaining in some form of customs union at the point of leaving, to be reviewed in 5 years time once we have left'. If there is majority support for this then pass the laws and move on.

If there is not majority support for that then we toss a f-ing coin with heads no deal leave and tails remain.
turtle wrote:You have much more faith in the British system than I do.
My faith is in the British people.

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Re: The lisbon treaty - a poll

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Post by erol »

waz-24-7 wrote:Given the current political turmoil this type of poll holds little interest,
What poll ? The poll I started this thread with you mean ? Holds little interest to whom ? Yourself you mean ? So unless I have misunderstood you, and if I have apologies, you have come on to this thread to tell me and everyone else that it holds little interest (to anyone?) and then to moved on to your own polemic, which presumably has mass interest to everyone ?

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Re: The lisbon treaty - a poll

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Post by jofra »

Interesting - and amusing - to now review the opinions and comments in this thread from three years ago (and the link below...)
Mowgli597 wrote:What has the ECHR (European Convention on Human Rights) ever done for us?

http://tinyurl.com/zwyecuz

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Re: The lisbon treaty - a poll

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Post by erol »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
turtle wrote:
The EU have us by the short and curlies as we have caved in and shown them our hand at every turn...poor poor negotiating tactics.
With the government unable to get a resolution through that we will leave under a no deal if forced then we have no bargaining power.

As an experiment the next time you go to buy a car inform the salesman that whatever happens you will not leave his showroom until you have bought a car from him. Then ask him for a discount. Good luck!
Another experiment for you. The next time you go to buy a car inform the salesman that unless he gives you a 50 % discount by a given time and date, you will shoot your own arm off with a shotgun and splatter him and his showroom with blood and bone and he might even get a pellet in his leg. Good luck with that.

The only real serious leverage we had after the referendum vote was to threaten (not as a bluff but in reality) to not leave the EU but to stay and obstruct every thing and anything we could until the EU came to the table with sensible and fair proposals - but we, to use a BJ turn of phrase, spaffed that opportunity up against the wall. Why did we rush in to triggering article 50, even before we had any idea or agreement what it was we would try and negotiate for, and walk 'meekly' in to the the EU trap of 'there can be no discussion , no negotiation until you trigger article 50 first' ? I tell you why - because the extreme leave camp, having won a result they never expect to win, were terrified that the 'will of the people' would change and thus for them entering article 50 before we should have, even though that almost certainly would end up being potentially disastrous for the UK and its poor suffering people, would result in them getting their maximal desire - and the people who should have resisted them cared more about clinging on to power and their party than they did for country. In my view such people do not respect the will of the people - they fear it.

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Re: The lisbon treaty - a poll

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Post by erol »

Just going back to the issue of 'blame' for a moment, there is one name that has so far in this thread has not yet been mentioned but for me stands towering above all others for the mess the UK finds itself in today.

David Cameron.

Not because of the 'what' he did but because of the 'why' and 'when' he did it. Would have liked to have seen the electorate have a chance to express their ire with him in a future general election - but he he slunk off from that as well, after first creating the mess and then standing down as PM. I could be well be wrong but I strongly suspect that history will not be kind to him - which imo is no less that he deserves.

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Re: The lisbon treaty - a poll

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

erol wrote:Just going back to the issue of 'blame' for a moment, there is one name that has so far in this thread has not yet been mentioned but for me stands towering above all others for the mess the UK finds itself in today.

David Cameron.

Not because of the 'what' he did but because of the 'why' and 'when' he did it. Would have liked to have seen the electorate have a chance to express their ire with him in a future general election - but he he slunk off from that as well, after first creating the mess and then standing down as PM. I could be well be wrong but I strongly suspect that history will not be kind to him - which imo is no less that he deserves.
Cameron held a referendum because he was frightened that his party would lose votes to UKIP, no doubt of that.

But here's the thing, a single issue party, UKIP, was garnering a lot of votes. Nearly 4 million at at the 2015 general election and the highest number of votes at the 2014 European elections. Now how else do the people indicate that they are not happy and wish to be heard about Europe? They vote for a party who's only issue is Europe. So Cameron promises a referendum and with that promise increased his votes. Coincidence?

So the people get their referendum and 72.2% turnout to vote, the highest turnout in a quarter of a century. More people turned out to cast a vote than at any time bar 1992.
The people voted to leave by a majority of one and a quarter million votes. OK it was only 52% of the peoples vote but the last time a party gained 50% or more of the popular vote was 1931.
In fact The Labour Party has never gained 50% of the popular vote in its history.

The huge Labour win in 1945 which gave them a mandate to make huge changes to society? 47% of the popular vote.
Thatcher's win in 1983 when she was surfing the wave of post Falklands and the total collapse of the Labour Party? 42.4% of the vote.
Blair's win in 1992? 43.2% of the vote.

Had the EU referendum been transferred into seats, leave would have an 88 seat majority. To put that into perspective in the 27 elections over the last century, if we ignore the National coalition governments from 1931, the winning party has only gained a majority of more than 88 seats on 9 occasions.

Hopefully the above puts the result into perspective. Be under no illusions even with all the marches, polls etc etc if we repeated the referendum again tomorrow and the result was to remain the % would still be in the low 50s.

As for Cameron, you could look at him resigning in two ways. Sulky or principled.
He didn't get his own way and threw his toys out the pram.
He was so fundamentally opposed to the result that he couldn't in clear conscience lead a government that implemented that result.
Corbyn has been against EU membership his entire political life. Which on reflection does make me think EU membership might have something going for it! But has he said he believes we should leave or remain? Not really. This man of principle is so close to power that he will bury his beliefs to grab power.

It is all a mute point because if Corbyn wins power within 3 years the UK will be finished. Economically we will probably be best in the EU as we will be needing the handouts.

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Re: The lisbon treaty - a poll

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

erol wrote:
The only real serious leverage we had after the referendum vote was to threaten (not as a bluff but in reality) to not leave the EU but to stay and obstruct every thing and anything we could until the EU came to the table with sensible and fair proposals
You keep returning to this theme that we will be allowed to influence from within and can veto etc. The 1986, 2001 and 2007 treaties all reduced vetos and extended qualified majority voting. Am I the only person who can see a theme here?

You also have this idea that our politicians will do what the majority of their citizens wish. Bless you for that.

Labour and Conservatives are split down the middle on Europe so moving forward we will get very little difference on options in their manifestos on Europe. They will be more interested in stopping their party from splitting than offering us options. So they will both offer us the same option. The last time we were offered a real option on our future in Europe we come up with the wrong answer.

So the people will rely on our politicians looking out for us, I can't see them offering too many future referendums on Europe once we have been blackmailed into coming up with the correct answer on this one. I don't remember too many referendums on any of the other Treaties our politicians have signed us up to. Often proudly saying they haven't even read them.

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Re: The lisbon treaty - a poll

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Post by turtle »

erol wrote:
The only real serious leverage we had after the referendum vote was to threaten (not as a bluff but in reality) to not leave the EU but to stay and obstruct every thing and anything we could until the EU came to the table with sensible and fair proposals - but we, to use a BJ turn of phrase, spaffed that opportunity up against the wall. Why did we rush in to triggering article 50, even before we had any idea or agreement what it was we would try and negotiate for, and walk 'meekly' in to the the EU trap of 'there can be no discussion , no negotiation until you trigger article 50 first' ? I tell you why - because the extreme leave camp, having won a result they never expect to win, were terrified that the 'will of the people' would change and thus for them entering article 50 before we should have, even though that almost certainly would end up being potentially disastrous for the UK and its poor suffering people, would result in them getting their maximal desire - and the people who should have resisted them cared more about clinging on to power and their party than they did for country. In my view such people do not respect the will of the people - they fear it.
So the ERG influenced the majority 384 MPs who voted to trigger article 50......I don't think so..

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Re: The lisbon treaty - a poll

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

waz-24-7 wrote:I just looked out of curiosity.
0ver 4.5 million people have signed the cancel article 50 petition.
The biggest ever following on a political petition.
Not sure how many people marched in London but it looked very big on the News.

Hope the government will heed the level of intent. Brexit is clearly on the rocks and it needs the peoples intervention to pave the way forward.
Yes the poll is really impressive. Want me to help with the petition? Give me say ten names to sign the treaty with. I suggest Monthy Python might be a good unique source. Nigel Incubator-Jones, names like that?

I'll tell you what is a good way of doing a poll;

Everyone gets sent a voting card.
Say one per person so as they can't vote more than twice.
They then vote anonymously.
And when all those eligible to vote have had their one vote each anonymously we add them up and whatever side gets the most wins.

It's out there as an idea I agree.
.

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Re: The lisbon treaty - a poll

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Post by turtle »

ETS...You are thinking outside the box now...and way too radical for us Brits...

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Re: The lisbon treaty - a poll

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

erol wrote: Are you sure you do not mean if we stay in the EU be under no illusion that at some point we will chose to join the Euro ? If so, then all you seem to be doing is seeking to deny future generations that choice. If on the other hand you are saying that if we stay in the EU be under no illusions that we will be forced to join the euro against our will - then I say that is just 'project fear' to the max. So which is it ?
Back at you. Do you see the future of Europe as a Union of States? Personally I can’t see anything that is being enacted that points against it. So lets just pretend that by some miracle I'm right, do you think a nation works best if it has one currency or half a dozen?
erol wrote: Again this is all based on 'future prophecy' by you. It is the same thing. The EU treaties exist as they do today. We are being asked do we want to leave today. Yes in the future (in a hypothetical scenario that the UK remains) the EU may and probably will seek to move to ever closer integration and that will require treaty change. At that point if the UK does not want further integration , then it does not sign the treaty and or it leaves the EU then. I have already stated I would welcome a law mandating a referendum on any such change. If we do not like it then do not sign it or leave then. To argue that we must leave now because now we do not like such further integration is to me madness and an attempt to stop future generations from having that choice.
A few Key phrase you used there
“EU treaties exist as they do today.”
“At that point if the UK does not want further integration , then it does not sign the treaty and or it leaves the EU then.”
“then it does not sign the treaty and or it leaves the EU then. I have already stated I would welcome a law mandating a referendum on any such change. If we do not like it then do not sign it or leave then.”

Do you honestly believe that after we are marched back to the ballot box to come up with the correct answer, we, the people not our politicians, will ever have a future opportunity to stop the project?
erol wrote: We can not get any more 'embedded' in any sort of fundamental way without treaty change. There can not be treaty change without our consent. From where I sit you are saying that the electorate today must make this decision now to stop the electorate of the future making wrong decisions in 15 years time.
The Maastricht Treaty was a bit of a game changer I think you’ll agree? What was the date of that referendum, I think I must have been on holiday.
I’m saying the electorate of today has an opportunity to make decisions, future electorates won’t.

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Re: The lisbon treaty - a poll

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

turtle wrote:ETS...You are thinking outside the box now...and way too radical for us Brits...
I'm just trying to simplify it for us stupid voters

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Re: The lisbon treaty - a poll

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Post by turtle »

A very good interview from Iain Duncan-Smith on Andrew Marr show this Morning.

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Re: The lisbon treaty - a poll

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turtle wrote:
what have they done for you to be so critical of them....be right wing ?
Ever go on twitter? It's brilliant, apparently Tony Blair is an extreme right winger.

My understanding of voting blocks or lets say political views are as follows;

Communist. It isn't totally accurate but lets lump Trotskyists, Stalinist, Maoists in that category for brevity.
Extreme Left Wing
Left Wing
Centre Left
Centre
Centre Right
Right Wing
Extreme Right Wing
Fascist.

So at least nine shades, but Corbynites/ Momentum supporters have simplified this.

They are extreme left wing moving to communist. Many aren't actually aware that they are but the people of influence they are supporting such as Corbyn and Milne certainly are.

This is why they target and will try and get the 16 year olds the vote. The 16 year olds basically believe what their teachers spoon feed them. Which of us wasn't communist at 16? It proves you are idealistic and have a heart. By the time you are in your mid 20s you slowly move away from those beliefs because of one small reason.
IT DOESN"T WORK. Never has and never will.

So Momentum go under the guise of real democratic socialists and everyone else is extreme/far right or fascist. Rees-Mogg is actually centre right toright wing but is now labelled extreme right. Kinnock is left wing but is now far right.

This works on two fronts.
1) It isolates everyone who doesn't follow their way of thinking as extremist.
2) It means that those youngsters who missed out on the real battles against the National Front in the seventies can pretend they are fighting fascists now. Those that missed out on the civil rights struggles of the 60s can come up with the Black Lives Matter movement and such like.

I was a child of the 60s/70s and often used to pretend I was a Second World War commando when playing so I guess the game hasn't changed that much.

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Re: The lisbon treaty - a poll

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

erol wrote:
turtle wrote: Hundreds of thousands marching today in London to force a second referendum
Is that not their right in a free and democratic nation ?
Unless of course they march against something that I don't agree with then I will petition to have the march banned as we can't be seen to kowtow to mob rule.

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Re: The lisbon treaty - a poll

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Post by Chriswright03 »

I thought this was supposed to be a poll not a discussion!

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Re: The lisbon treaty - a poll

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Post by erol »

Just to be clear, all of the below is 'in my opinion'. Some of it may read as statements or claims of 'fact' but all of it is just my personal opinion nothing more and nothing less.
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:Cameron held a referendum because he was frightened that his party would lose votes to UKIP, no doubt of that.
and after the humiliation of being unable to secure a majority, even after 3 consecutive terms and 13 years of Labour rule under Blair and Brown.
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:But here's the thing, a single issue party, UKIP, was garnering a lot of votes. Nearly 4 million at at the 2015 general election and the highest number of votes at the 2014 European elections. Now how else do the people indicate that they are not happy and wish to be heard about Europe? They vote for a party who's only issue is Europe. So Cameron promises a referendum and with that promise increased his votes. Coincidence?
Yes UKIP made Cameron (and others) have to accept that they could not just continuing to ignore that strength of feeling without cost. It is not that they were unaware of that strength of feeling before UKIP - it is just they could get away with ignoring it before and now they could not. However there were ways that he could have, having been forced to, acknowledge that feeling other than what he actually did. However that would have been based on doing what is best for the country and not just himself and party and having some humility, things that he was incapable of.

If you acknowledge that something had to change and be done to recognise the disenfranchised over issue of EU membership (and I do) but also have the best interests of country as your overriding guiding principle, then he could have entered the 2015 election on a manifesto that he would immediately legislate that at the next round of treaty change within the EU the public would be given the right to not just a referendum on whether to accept that change or not, but a referendum on continued UK membership as well, set in law and in stone. That is the only sensible time at which to have such referenda if your genuine concern is the what is best for the country and not just trying to grubbily grab a few seats here and there without any cost. What he did instead was gamble, not just with his own political future but with the lives of 60 million UK citizens and future generations to come. He gambled not because the risks involved in such a gamble were unforeseeable but because in his hubris and arrogance he thought he could see the future and he was wrong, with disastrous consequences. What is more he took a gamble that had it paid off, all the 'winnings' of that gamble would accrue to him and the conservative only but should it fail, something he thought could not happen and that he was wrong about, would be paid for not just by him and the conservative party but by millions of ordinary people, myself included. It was in my view a supremely cynical example of putting person and party ahead of country. As I said already, and I may be wrong, I think history will not be kind to him nor do I think it should be.
EnjoyingTheSun wrote: Be under no illusions even with all the marches, polls etc etc if we repeated the referendum again tomorrow and the result was to remain the % would still be in the low 50s.
The primary issue now is not should we leave or not but how we should leave and the only reason there is any chance at all that we will not leave is because, imo, of the failings of TM.

TM, with neither a majority of the popular vote or of seats in the HoC, decided that she alone had the right to decide what the vote to leave meant in terms of how we should leave. It is not just that she did not consult or consider the people in taking that right for herself, she did not consult or consider parliament, her own party or even her own cabinet. Having taken that right, that she had no moral legitimacy to take, she then so clearly based her decision on 'how' we should leave the EU based not on what is best for the country but entirely based on what, totally mistakenly, she though was best for her personally and her party. Again she chose to gamble with all of our lives with the massive risks of that gamble being plainly clear again for the needs of her and her party and again she lost the gamble with severe consequences that we can not yet still fully know. Having seized sole control of the biggest decision in my lifetime, that she had no legitimate right to take alone in the first place, she then thought she could brow beat and force and bully and threaten her way through regardless, in a spirit utterly contemptuous of the principles of democracy and to top it all of without any result even for her and her party. What is more she seems intent on continuing to cling on to power to try and continue with an approach that is so clearly disastrous.
EnjoyingTheSun wrote: has been against EU membership his entire political life. Which on reflection does make me think EU membership might have something going for it! But has he said he believes we should leave or remain? Not really. This man of principle is so close to power that he will bury his beliefs to grab power.
Do not get me started on Corbyn. The personal sense of disappointment and betrayal I feel in him has reach a level that I can not see anything he could do now that could repair that rift. However the fact, by circumstance and not design, none of the genuine and vast sense of of betrayal I feel in regards to him in terms of what he has done and not done and why, have affected me and millions of others in such a direct and negative way as the failings of Cameron and TM - simply because whilst he has for me shown himself to be a zob head since gaining leadership, willing as you say to throw a lifetime of principal away to political expediency, has has to date been a zob head without the power of government.

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Re: The lisbon treaty - a poll

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EnjoyingTheSun wrote: You keep returning to this theme that we will be allowed to influence from within and can veto etc. The 1986, 2001 and 2007 treaties all reduced vetos and extended qualified majority voting. Am I the only person who can see a theme here?
And the UK agreed to each and every one. When there were changes that were not acceptable to the UK (governments) we were able to resist, with the euro, with schengen , with a host of other issues.
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:You also have this idea that our politicians will do what the majority of their citizens wish. Bless you for that.
No I do not have that idea at all. However if the problem is that our politicians do not reflect the will of the people enough, a view that I personally hold, then to me saying 'we therefore must leave the EU' makes no sense and is no solution to that problem. It seems to me , and this is not an attempt to put words in your mouth or box you in to some kind of corner but a genuine attempt to understand your position better, that you position is 'our politics in the UK is fundamentally broken - but as long as we leave the EU then that is not a problem we have to worry too much about' ? In this sense it seems to me we are fundamentally addressing the wrong thing, or a secondary thing whilst gleefully ignoring the elephant. All the time and effort and passion and air time and words written over Brexit, if that had been spent addressing the issue of this disconnect between the people and politicians in the UK, would it have lead to more chance of a better UK than having spent it on Brexit. I do not know but it is not hard to imagine it would. In this regard I think the 'people', myself included no less than anyone else, have much culpability - something I have touched on before.
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:Labour and Conservatives are split down the middle on Europe so moving forward we will get very little difference on options in their manifestos on Europe. They will be more interested in stopping their party from splitting than offering us options. So they will both offer us the same option. The last time we were offered a real option on our future in Europe we come up with the wrong answer.
So is the answer to that really, leave the EU and carry on regardless with a totally broken system outside the EU ? Or is the answer to actually put some time and effort in to fixing the broken system, in or out of the EU ?
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:So the people will rely on our politicians looking out for us, I can't see them offering too many future referendums on Europe once we have been blackmailed into coming up with the correct answer on this one. I don't remember too many referendums on any of the other Treaties our politicians have signed us up to. Often proudly saying they haven't even read them.
There is 'nothing' to stop the UK passing the same law that Ireland has, requiring any further treaty change to have to go to a referendum or pass laws that go much further than that - no Euro entry without referendum, no EU enlargement without referendum and whatever. If such things were put in place would it make any difference to your as to if we should remain in the EU or not ? So how I suspect it would make no difference to you , which if that is true, make the above for me 'excuses' not 'arguments.

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Re: The lisbon treaty - a poll

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turtle wrote:
So the ERG influenced the majority 384 MPs who voted to trigger article 50......I don't think so..
No that is not what I am saying. I am saying that certainly with hindsight but even without it, there is no doubt that there was a unseemly and tactically disastrous rush to trigger article 50 after the referendum, that was in no way driven by what was best for the country. As it was entirely clear and plain that the EU position of 'there can be no discussion about withdrawal before you trigger article 50' was a a 'trap' that rushing in to without protestation at all could only ever be against the best interests of the country. The ERG could and did lead the charge for putting as much pressure as possible on May to trigger article 50 prematurely, knowing that to do so fundamentally weakened the UK and its position but strengthened their ability , as a minority of a minority, to achieve their very own and specific means of exiting, using every threat in their arsenal including if you dont trigger within weeks we will destroy the tory party. For the part they played in that, which was imo real and significant, I do hold them accountable.

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Re: The lisbon treaty - a poll

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erol wrote:
Yes UKIP made Cameron (and others) have to accept that they could not just continuing to ignore that strength of feeling without cost. It is not that they were unaware of that strength of feeling before UKIP - it is just they could get away with ignoring it before and now they could not. However there were ways that he could have, having been forced to, acknowledge that feeling other than what he actually did. However that would have been based on doing what is best for the country and not just himself and party and having some humility, things that he was incapable of.
Millions of people voted for UKIP, a single issue party. That kind of indicates to me that an awful lot of people wanted to have a say on Europe and in fact it was the biggest issue for them. That is not to say it wasn’t an issue for people who didn’t vote UKIP.
Generally people compromise when they vote. They may feel the NHS is safer with Labour but law and order is safer with the Conservatives etc etc. Generally they zero in on the most important issue and compromise on others. Law and order might be the most important and they go that route and hope that the Conservatives might screw up the NHS less than Labour would screw up law and order. And vice versa.
What did prove that the EU was an important issue in the majority of the people’s minds not just UKIP voters was the high turnout.
erol wrote:
he could have entered the 2015 election on a manifesto that he would immediately legislate that at the next round of treaty change within the EU the public would be given the right to not just a referendum on whether to accept that change or not, but a referendum on continued UK membership as well, set in law and in stone.
I wish I could find a copy of Heath’s manifesto from 1970. Joining The EEC, the most fundamental change in the UK’s future not that we were let in on the whole secret, was a footnote in it. Did the referendum not basically ask whether you were happy with the EU or not and the way it had developed under the treaties we had already had?
erol wrote:
the only reason there is any chance at all that we will not leave is because, imo, of the failings of TM.
TM, with neither a majority of the popular vote or of seats in the HoC, decided that she alone had the right to decide what the vote to leave meant in terms of how we should leave. It is not just that she did not consult or consider the people in taking that right for herself, she did not consult or consider parliament, her own party or even her own cabinet. Having taken that right, that she had no moral legitimacy to take, she then so clearly based her decision on 'how' we should leave the EU based not on what is best for the country but entirely based on what, totally mistakenly, she though was best for her personally and her party.
May is in with a great shot of being the worst Prime Minister we have ever had and the competition is fierce. She is a functionary that has been over-promoted. Her own personal view is to remain. The other choice is Corbyn. A back bench contrarian who like May through some inter party joke is the leader. Corbyn has been a leaver for his entire political career. Will this man of principle come out and nail his colours to the leave mast? No, he will sit back and hope the Conservatives implode and he gets into power.
We are not choosing between Churchill and Attlee here. We are not even choosing between slick political operators with few principles like Blair and Cameron. We have May and Corbyn. Do you want to be shot or hung?
erol wrote:
none of the genuine and vast sense of of betrayal I feel in regards to him in terms of what he has done and not done and why, have affected me and millions of others in such a direct and negative way as the failings of Cameron and TM - simply because whilst he has for me shown himself to be a zob head since gaining leadership, willing as you say to throw a lifetime of principal away to political expediency, has has to date been a zob head without the power of government.
Well we have that to look forward to. Like I say when he does become PM I will be in favour of the EU so we can be with the majority and get our much needed handouts.

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Re: The lisbon treaty - a poll

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EnjoyingTheSun wrote: Back at you. Do you see the future of Europe as a Union of States? Personally I can’t see anything that is being enacted that points against it. So lets just pretend that by some miracle I'm right, do you think a nation works best if it has one currency or half a dozen?
We are just going round in circles now. You say we must leave today because of what may happen in the future. I say as long as we have the means to resist any change that is against our will then the argument we must leave to day because of what might happen in the future is moot. To which you say we can not trust our politicians. To which I say so let us put in law that such future decisions must be made by the people and not politicians. To which you say 'we must leave today because of what may happen in the future' and round and round we go.
EnjoyingTheSun wrote: Do you honestly believe that after we are marched back to the ballot box to come up with the correct answer, we, the people not our politicians, will ever have a future opportunity to stop the project?
I believe that as citizens if we truly believe that our politicians will and do just ignore our wishes with impunity, then we have a duty as citizens to put as much effort and passion in to challenging and changing that as we have put in to arguments over brexit that have achieved nothing so far and can not solve that issue in any case even if if something does end up being achieved.

I think it is perfectly within the realms of reasonable possibility that in the event of brexit not happening laws could be passed in parliament that require any and all further progression towards a united states of europe to be require consent of the people directly via referenda and that any party in such a scenario could gain much support having that as the key plank re europe in their manifesto.
EnjoyingTheSun wrote: The Maastricht Treaty was a bit of a game changer I think you’ll agree? What was the date of that referendum, I think I must have been on holiday. I’m saying the electorate of today has an opportunity to make decisions, future electorates won’t.
I say let's learn from the past and do things better in the future. That we have not yet put in place such legislation is for me no argument that we can not and never will be able to do so. That is just capitulation on a scale far bigger and wider than just the issue of in or out of the EU.

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Re: The lisbon treaty - a poll

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erol wrote: And the UK agreed to each and every one. When there were changes that were not acceptable to the UK (governments) we were able to resist, with the euro, with schengen , with a host of other issues.
Our politicians agreed to each and every one. Often without reading the bloody things. Yes they had some elbow room to get the odd crumb, no guarantee that elbow room will continue. Lucky really as they seem to only glance at the treaties.
erol wrote: It seems to me , and this is not an attempt to put words in your mouth or box you in to some kind of corner but a genuine attempt to understand your position better, that you position is 'our politics in the UK is fundamentally broken - but as long as we leave the EU then that is not a problem we have to worry too much about' ?
I think we both agree that the whole system needs an overhaul. Now I have more confidence that my vote has ever so slightly more weight in a UK election than an EU election. I also believe that going forward the EU will listen less and less to mine and other votes. Nothing in its history has given me any reason to think otherwise. It’s a bit like flooding. While I can do nothing about floods I do have a reasonable shot at getting my council to have some sandbags ready.
erol wrote: So is the answer to that really, leave the EU and carry on regardless with a totally broken system outside the EU ? Or is the answer to actually put some time and effort in to fixing the broken system, in or out of the EU ?
I don’t believe the system outside the EU is totally broken. I do believe that even if we could, and that’s a big if, the EU doesn’t work and will never work.
erol wrote: There is 'nothing' to stop the UK passing the same law that Ireland has, requiring any further treaty change to have to go to a referendum or pass laws that go much further than that - no Euro entry without referendum, no EU enlargement without referendum and whatever. If such things were put in place would it make any difference to your as to if we should remain in the EU or not ? So how I suspect it would make no difference to you , which if that is true, make the above for me 'excuses' not 'arguments.
Ireland who voted against the EU and had to have another go until they got the right answer? Of course if the EU were accountable and democratic it would make a difference. Likewise if my Aunt had a willy and balls he would be my Uncle.

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Re: The lisbon treaty - a poll

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Chriswright03 wrote:I thought this was supposed to be a poll not a discussion!
Is there some reason that I have failed to see or understand that means it has to be one or the other and can not be both ?

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EnjoyingTheSun wrote:Ireland who voted against the EU and had to have another go until they got the right answer?
No what happened was they had a referendum at a time that made sense and not one timed by the petty needs and miscalculations of a single party. The people were asked. They said no. Changes were made and the people were asked again and in light of those changes they said yes. It was the PEOPLE who said yes the second time after the changes.

You can not have it both ways, either asking the people on such issues is valid or it is not. So will you claim that the people of Ireland , when asked if the changes made in response to their first rejection were enough to gain their support in the second referendum, were too stupid or weak or lazy or influenced by demagogues and politicians that they were not capable of making a valid judgement in the second referendum ?

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Re: The lisbon treaty - a poll

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erol wrote: you say 'we must leave today because of what may happen in the future' and round and round we go.
OK we joined in 1973. No referendum, just a footnote in a manifesto.
We got a referendum in 1975. Usual project fear IMO but that’s another argument.
Then 41 years later we got another referendum. After;
The 1986 Treaty
The 1992 Treaty
The 1995 Schengen Agreement. Ok we body swerved it but it was a big change and we had no say in it.
The 1997 Treaty.
The 2001 Treaty
The 2007 Treaty.
And then people had enough and UKIP got some traction and started to get enough votes to influence the big parties. Do you think if they had remained an obscure party any of our politicians would even think that hey we are waving through things here that fundamentally change the future of our country and our people aren’t even aware.
When countries do vote against the EU it appears that the EU goes away, repackages and starts a project fear and the country’s electorate has another go until they come up with the right answer.
So do I fear that if this opportunity is thrown away we won’t get another? 100%, do you blame me?
erol wrote: I think it is perfectly within the realms of reasonable possibility that in the event of brexit not happening laws could be passed in parliament that require any and all further progression towards a united states of europe to be require consent of the people directly via referenda and that any party in such a scenario could gain much support having that as the key plank re europe in their manifesto.
OK backdate that so we can all have a vote on the Single European Act, Maastricht, Amsterdam, Nice and Lisbon and I’m game.

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