Poll - did Cummings break the rules ?

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Did Dominic Cummings break the Governments lock down rules ?

Yes
26
67%
Yes in spirit but not in the letter of the rules
6
15%
No
7
18%
 
Total votes: 39

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Re: Poll - did Cummings break the rules ?

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

erol wrote:
Mon 25 May 2020 2:10 pm

Are you seriously suggesting that it is any where near reasonable doubt that he was not instrumental in formulating the governments response to the virus and the messaging that it put out to people ?
I believe Cummings was tasked with procuring the hindsight that Johnson needed to respond effectively to the crisis.

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Re: Poll - did Cummings break the rules ?

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Post by Groucho »

erol wrote:
Mon 25 May 2020 2:13 pm
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Mon 25 May 2020 1:57 pm
erol wrote:
Mon 25 May 2020 1:31 pm
have been less damaging to the country if there was some contrition
Erol, will a confession be enough or does he need to name other conspirators as well?

https://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/m ... -the-ussr/
Do you honestly and seriously doubt that what DC did and how Johnson has reacted to it to date will have real and material consequences in terms of how many people continue to follow government guidelines going forward or not ?
I honestly doubt it will make any difference whatsoever.... just long as you get your man. But then that's been your entire purpose in starting this pointless thread... when you change tack from statements of fact and start hypothesising that 'he must' then your argument is lost in its mendacious intent.

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Post by Dalartokat »

Dominic Cummings has just made a speech giving his version of events and is now answering questions from the media.

So all will be dysected again.
Old Soldiers never die, they simply fade away, never to be forgotten.

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Re: Poll - did Cummings break the rules ?

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

Paragraph 6, Subsection 2(d) of the Coronavirus regulations - "No persons may leave the place where they are living without reasonable excuse"

Reasonable excuse includes

"The need to provide care or assistance, including relevant personal care to a vulnerable person"


If you want to go into this even further, back in mid-March (2 weeks before Cummings went to Durham) you can reference the Deputy Chief Medical Officer, Jenny Harries where she said "Cleary if you have adults who are unable to look after a child this is exceptional circumstances"
1510CDF3-46C7-4619-956E-E46226B10EAD.jpeg

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Re: Poll - did Cummings break the rules ?

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Post by erol »

Groucho wrote:
Mon 25 May 2020 3:57 pm
erol wrote:
Mon 25 May 2020 2:13 pm
Do you honestly and seriously doubt that what DC did and how Johnson has reacted to it to date will have real and material consequences in terms of how many people continue to follow government guidelines going forward or not ?
I honestly doubt it will make any difference whatsoever....
Do you accept that several of the government own experts who specialise in behaviour have said they think there will be an impact in terms of how likely the public is to follow future government guidelines ?
Groucho wrote:
Mon 25 May 2020 3:57 pm
just long as you get your man. But then that's been your entire purpose in starting this pointless thread... when you change tack from statements of fact and start hypothesising that 'he must' then your argument is lost in its mendacious intent.
This is just absolute nonsense. Forget that you are claiming to know my intent better than I do. Forget that your are essentially calling me a liar. Are you seriously suggesting that I think anything I do here could or would affect what does or does not happen to Cummings ? It is as far as I am concerned beyond absurd. The reason why I started the poll was I was genuinely curious as to what other poster here thought. I then having created the poll reacted to others comments with my own personal views and opinions.

As far as mendacious intent goes - did I even use the word 'must' any where in this thread ?

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Re: Poll - did Cummings break the rules ?

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Post by erol »

Dalartokat wrote:
Mon 25 May 2020 4:49 pm
Dominic Cummings has just made a speech giving his version of events and is now answering questions from the media.

So all will be dysected again.
For FWIW having watched the press conference my personal first thoughts are that it was massively better than Johnson's attempt to deal with the issue last night, that essentially was 'I have heard in detail what he had to say on the issue, I have judged it reasonable and you lot do not need to know any more than that'. Better in terms of damage to the government and better in terms of damage to the nation re people just ignoring any future guidance to an extent not seen before this all kicked off.

On the whole I found him direct and honest in way that is refreshing compared to ministers and MP's generally. I have a certain admiration for him explaining his position and standing by it consistently as well. I do also think he has a degree of blind spot in terms of where the anger came from, attempting to portray it as coming simply from an unfair and lying press when the truth that I see is that some sections of the press may have added to the anger but they were not and are not the sole source of it. I also think he has a degree of blind spot over his level of privileged and how that is perceived by those who do not have such options. Over all I thought it was a good thing to do and a good result for him and the government with the weakest part being the trip to the castle to 'test' if he was OK to drive back to London or not. That did not really make sense to me.

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Re: Poll - did Cummings break the rules ?

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

erol wrote:
Mon 25 May 2020 5:28 pm

Groucho wrote:
Mon 25 May 2020 3:57 pm
just long as you get your man. But then that's been your entire purpose in starting this pointless thread... when you change tack from statements of fact and start hypothesising that 'he must' then your argument is lost in its mendacious intent.
This is just absolute nonsense. Forget that you are claiming to know my intent better than I do. Forget that your are essentially calling me a liar. Are you seriously suggesting that I think anything I do here could or would affect what does or does not happen to Cummings ? It is as far as I am concerned beyond absurd. The reason why I started the poll was I was genuinely curious as to what other poster here thought. I then having created the poll reacted to others comments with my own personal views and opinions.
erol wrote:
Mon 25 May 2020 10:16 am
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Mon 25 May 2020 10:09 am

A cynic might also think that your polls are extremely selective and choreographed with a pile on the suits your personal political agenda.
Of course there is an element of that. The difference is I do not deny this and seek to make out that only other people do this and not myself.

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Re: Poll - did Cummings break the rules ?

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Post by frontalman »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Mon 25 May 2020 6:54 am
I do have a theory that the upper middle class Marxists of Islington just can’t get their heads around anyone leaving their little bubble to go to Durham where working class people live. “Ugh why would one want to go there, we already own their vote. Get your Palestinian flag and start campaigning in Hampstead, lovely places to get a Cappuccino there.”
Hardly working class, the property he drove to had at least three detached houses on it and acres of woods where he was spotted walking about. He obviously doesn't have much respect for people in and around Durham as he allegedly went for a test drive locally to see if a visual impairment, caused by his illness, would stand a trip back to London. He took his wife and child too so that they might all go out in a blaze of glory together, Prat!

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

frontalman wrote:
Mon 25 May 2020 6:35 pm

Hardly working class, the property he drove to had at least three detached houses on it and acres of woods where he was spotted walking about.
I didn't say he was working class I said Durham was working class.

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Re: Poll - did Cummings break the rules ?

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Post by erol »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Mon 25 May 2020 5:56 pm
erol wrote:
Mon 25 May 2020 5:28 pm

Groucho wrote:
Mon 25 May 2020 3:57 pm
just long as you get your man. But then that's been your entire purpose in starting this pointless thread... when you change tack from statements of fact and start hypothesising that 'he must' then your argument is lost in its mendacious intent.
This is just absolute nonsense. Forget that you are claiming to know my intent better than I do. Forget that your are essentially calling me a liar. Are you seriously suggesting that I think anything I do here could or would affect what does or does not happen to Cummings ? It is as far as I am concerned beyond absurd. The reason why I started the poll was I was genuinely curious as to what other poster here thought. I then having created the poll reacted to others comments with my own personal views and opinions.
erol wrote:
Mon 25 May 2020 10:16 am
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Mon 25 May 2020 10:09 am

A cynic might also think that your polls are extremely selective and choreographed with a pile on the suits your personal political agenda.
Of course there is an element of that. The difference is I do not deny this and seek to make out that only other people do this and not myself.
I create threads on things that interest me and reflect my personal biases. Is that not what everyone does ? It was not my intent in creating a thread on this topic to seek to change any outcomes as to what happened to DC. The very notion is absurd. Not only was it not my entire intent it was not my intent at all. I started this thread knowing with absolute certainty and without even having to think about it that it would not and could not affect the outcome re DC. Groucho alleges that when I stared claiming DC 'must go' is the point when it became clear to him how mendacious my intent in starting the thread was. So show me where I actually do this. Where I say 'he must' go ? If you or he can not show this will there be any public apology ? I think there is as much chance of that as this thread affecting outcomes for DC.

I thought about creating a poll on that subject - 'should DC go - yes / no' and did not because what I wanted to know was how other people here felt about if he broke the rules or not. My feeling was that the issue was cutting through and across political divisions and partisanship and creating a poll was an easy and simple way to test that feeling. On this occasion I think my feeling had much connection to reality going by the votes to date. That is what I do. I do not just feel something and then define that as being right for no other reason than I feel it. I seek ways to test it. That is a fundamental part of my identity as other things are to other people.

All I am seeing from some to be honest is much more mendacious ad homiem attacks on me as an individual, my motivations, my integrity than any real effort to engage with the arguments or points I make. I will not lose any sleep over it. In my experience such is not uncommon when people either do not have much of a counter argument to make or fear they can not make it as well or forcefully as I make mine.

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Re: Poll - did Cummings break the rules ?

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Post by wanderer »

“New question for the driving theory test then:
If you feel you may be unable to see well enough to drive, do you:
a) dont drive until you're sure you are capable of driving
b) pop out for a drive with as many loved ones as you can fit in the car for a trip to a local heritage site”

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

wanderer wrote:
Mon 25 May 2020 7:28 pm

b) pop out for a drive with as many loved ones as you can fit in the car for a trip to a local heritage site”
Sounds fair, I’m not sure I could still read a number plate from 20 metres but I think I could see a castle
😀

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Post by Groucho »

erol wrote:
Mon 25 May 2020 5:28 pm
Groucho wrote:
Mon 25 May 2020 3:57 pm
erol wrote:
Mon 25 May 2020 2:13 pm
Do you honestly and seriously doubt that what DC did and how Johnson has reacted to it to date will have real and material consequences in terms of how many people continue to follow government guidelines going forward or not ?
I honestly doubt it will make any difference whatsoever....
Do you accept that several of the government own experts who specialise in behaviour have said they think there will be an impact in terms of how likely the public is to follow future government guidelines ?
Groucho wrote:
Mon 25 May 2020 3:57 pm
just long as you get your man. But then that's been your entire purpose in starting this pointless thread... when you change tack from statements of fact and start hypothesising that 'he must' then your argument is lost in its mendacious intent.
This is just absolute nonsense. Forget that you are claiming to know my intent better than I do. Forget that your are essentially calling me a liar. Are you seriously suggesting that I think anything I do here could or would affect what does or does not happen to Cummings ? It is as far as I am concerned beyond absurd. The reason why I started the poll was I was genuinely curious as to what other poster here thought. I then having created the poll reacted to others comments with my own personal views and opinions.

As far as mendacious intent goes - did I even use the word 'must' any where in this thread ?
I paraphrased your statement:-

"Are you seriously suggesting that it is any where near reasonable doubt that he was not instrumental in formulating the governments response to the virus and the messaging that it put out to people ? He is the most senior and powerful adviser to the PM and possibly the most influential ever. He sat on SAGE. The slogans like 'stay at home, save lives' is hallmark Cummings. With all due respect I think to even ask this question smacks of desperation even ignoring that if it were true than he played no part in formulating the rules then why has no one said this ?"

as 'he must' (in single quotes as distinct from double quotes as it was intended as a precis ) for the sake of brevity, although you qualify your statement with " if it were true than he played no part in formulating the rules" so rather undermining your contention that "seriously suggesting that it is any where near reasonable doubt"

I bow to your expert knowledge of "hallmark Cummings" but I don't see a smoking gun just to suit my narrative.

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Re: Poll - did Cummings break the rules ?

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Post by PoshinDevon »

Its the hypocrisy of the media that is a concern for me.

Labour MP Steven Kinnock travelled to his parents' house for a birthday party.

Labour MP Tahir Ali attended a funeral along with 100 other mourners,

Welsh Health Minister Vaughan Gething sat at a picnic table having chips with his family, all during the lockdown.

Funny how nobody is calling for their heads. Is this right, should the press just ignore these indiscretions?

I say again the press have an agenda and that is what is driving this story.
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Post by Keithcaley »

I find the 'hypocrisy of the media' most evident in the way that they congregate in droves outside DC's house, sans masks and with absolutely no regard for Social Distancing, or the 'stay at home' ethos.

I can't say that I harbour any positive feelings towards DC, but I think that the behaviour of the press is beyond the pale.

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

PoshinDevon wrote:
Mon 25 May 2020 8:32 pm
Its the hypocrisy of the media that is a concern for me.
As evidenced by them packing together like sardines
outside Cummings house.
I think it’s a mixture of the usual left wing pile on against someone they fear and the fact that Cummings isn’t the most genial of characters and certainly does come across as arrogant.
The press treat those who are media friendly far more kindly then those who give them short shrift as Cummings seems to. Understandable really, the guy that will always give them a comment helps them fill the paper. You scratch my back.
From what I understand Cummings wasn’t in favour of the lockdown which seems feasible as he does seem one who would probably lean towards the economic factors rather than the human cost.
So making him out to be one of the chief architects of the lockdown might not be as accurate as him personally thinking it was a poor idea but having to do his job and sell it as I’m sure we have all had to do in our working lives.

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Re: Poll - did Cummings break the rules ?

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Post by erol »

Groucho wrote:
Mon 25 May 2020 8:21 pm
as 'he must' (in single quotes as distinct from double quotes as it was intended as a precis ) for the sake of brevity, although you qualify your statement with " if it were true than he played no part in formulating the rules" so rather undermining your contention that "seriously suggesting that it is any where near reasonable doubt"
I have no idea what you are on about. You are claiming I said 'he must' what ? He must 'go' ? He must have been involved in formulating policy ? What ? Why not just say what you mean clearly ? Why not quote me rather than paraphrase me ? You accused me of mendacious intent. So spell it out for me please because I have no idea what you are on about.

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Re: Poll - did Cummings break the rules ?

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Post by erol »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Mon 25 May 2020 8:53 pm
I think it’s a mixture of the usual left wing pile .....
Yeah cause only the left wing do this. Sounds like 'Left bad everything else good' non argument to me.

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Post by waz-24-7 »

I'm afraid this comes down to basic politics and the battle for power between the major Parties.
Mr Cummings as a very very good and successful spin doctor. He is one of Boris's best "players" and to lose your centre forward in any big game is a real disadvantage to beat the Labour opposite side.
It is Cummings who led the charge in the BREXIT vote and his marketing and propaganda worked extremely well. He understands how people vote and behave. His understanding of strategy on the delicate political field is extremely good and possibly only matched by Alastair Campbell.
The opposition on the other hand want and seek every opportunity to cripple the other side and the current episode of misdemeanour is certainly a good and potentially crippling one.

The opposition are actively seeking public opinion and of course media support ( a frenzy) to cause his downfall. Is this right? Is this wrong? what it certainly is, is politics and there are no guarantees.

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Image

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

erol wrote:
Mon 25 May 2020 9:29 pm

Yeah cause only the left wing do this. Sounds like 'Left bad everything else good' non argument to me.
Pop onto Twitter and catch the left rent a gobs such as James O'Brien and you'll see that they have been tweeting or retweeting every 5 minutes for the last 2 days solid about this. For what is pretty much a non story. I doubt they would have given as much ink to 9/11. Actually bad example, they probably just dropped in a quick 'America had it coming' and left it at that.
And then right on cue up pops an Erol poll. Was there a Guardian competition today? A pound to enter obviously.
I wonder if as many people are influenced to break the lockdown rules by Cummings as we're encouraged to drink bleach by Trump 's press conference? You could amalgamate both your polls! In future could you include an I don't give a toss option? I think you'll be surprised by how popular that might be.

Personally I could take or leave Trump and Johnson and simply thought they were both the best of a bad choice but over the last year I've learnt to love them because of the left's reaction to them.
I love how they are consistently labelled fascists by people who couldn't tell the difference between The National Front and The National Trust.

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Post by Groucho »

erol wrote:
Mon 25 May 2020 9:24 pm
Groucho wrote:
Mon 25 May 2020 8:21 pm
as 'he must' (in single quotes as distinct from double quotes as it was intended as a precis ) for the sake of brevity, although you qualify your statement with " if it were true than he played no part in formulating the rules" so rather undermining your contention that "seriously suggesting that it is any where near reasonable doubt"
I have no idea what you are on about. You are claiming I said 'he must' what ? He must 'go' ? He must have been involved in formulating policy ? What ? Why not just say what you mean clearly ? Why not quote me rather than paraphrase me ? You accused me of mendacious intent. So spell it out for me please because I have no idea what you are on about.
You know jolly well that you were in so many words, and I mean in SO MANY WORDS stating that 'he' being Dominic Cummings 'must' being 'was the driving force' behind the lockdown rules. You are now trying to wriggle off the hook because you clearly overplayed your hand. You were making statements you expected to go unchallenged to further your political philosophy in an attempt to carry others along with you.

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Post by frontalman »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Mon 25 May 2020 6:57 pm
frontalman wrote:
Mon 25 May 2020 6:35 pm

Hardly working class, the property he drove to had at least three detached houses on it and acres of woods where he was spotted walking about.
I didn't say he was working class I said Durham was working class.
Well he isn't and the place he visited isn't. Westminster is working class too, so is Islington.

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

frontalman wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 6:22 am

Westminster is working class too, so is Islington.


Islington used to be and I don’t doubt there are still a few council houses for local colour and to make the middle class lefties feel edgy.
Westminster I only know from driving through it but I would guess the same. It’s position and expense of property will mean that the working class will be driven out.
Flats in Islington can cost between £500k and a million and prices have been very high for at least 20-30 years so I doubt many postman will be living there.
Westminster would be even more expensive.
Corbyn and Thornberry live in Islington you don’t honestly think they would live somewhere working class on the £250k a year they pull in? Lady Nugee living next door to white van man, you that naive? Bet you think Peter Mandelson used to host his cocktail parties in Hartlepool?
No Labour need the safe seats in working class areas but they aren’t going to live there or school their children there. So if a senior Labour Party member lives somewhere you can guarantee its lovely and middle class.

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Post by erol »

Groucho wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 4:53 am
erol wrote:
Mon 25 May 2020 9:24 pm
Groucho wrote:
Mon 25 May 2020 8:21 pm
as 'he must' (in single quotes as distinct from double quotes as it was intended as a precis ) for the sake of brevity, although you qualify your statement with " if it were true than he played no part in formulating the rules" so rather undermining your contention that "seriously suggesting that it is any where near reasonable doubt"
I have no idea what you are on about. You are claiming I said 'he must' what ? He must 'go' ? He must have been involved in formulating policy ? What ? Why not just say what you mean clearly ? Why not quote me rather than paraphrase me ? You accused me of mendacious intent. So spell it out for me please because I have no idea what you are on about.
You know jolly well that you were in so many words, and I mean in SO MANY WORDS stating that 'he' being Dominic Cummings 'must' being 'was the driving force' behind the lockdown rules. You are now trying to wriggle off the hook because you clearly overplayed your hand. You were making statements you expected to go unchallenged to further your political philosophy in an attempt to carry others along with you.
Once more you tell ME what I know and call me a liar. I did NOT know what you were on about, so I asked.

Now let's get back to reality and facts shall we ?

I asked if it made a difference if someone breaking the rules was instrumental in making them or not. You ignore that generic question entirely and say is it 'fact or assumption' that DC was instrumental in formulating the rules'. Yes it is fact that he was instrumental in making the rules. I think no normal person would doubt he was instrumental. What is more he said he was himself in the interview.
google wrote:What does instrumental mean? : very important in helping or causing something to happen or be done.
Will you ever answer the question I DID ask - does it matter more if someone, anyone, who IS instrumental in making the rules breaks them than someone who had nothing to do with making them breaks then ? Of course you will not answer this question. You will just mendaciously avoid answering that simple question and continue to make ad hominem attack instead.

You are also entirely inconsistent and hypocritical. Elsewhere ETS say's he 'understand Cummings wasn’t in favour of the lockdown'. No questioning from you as to if this is 'assumption of fact'. Nothing. Nada. Zip. Yet Cummings himself said explicitly in the interview he was in favour of lockdown and argued for it. I suggest indirectly that he was instrumental in formulating the rules and you flip you lid. See the difference ?
Last edited by erol on Tue 26 May 2020 8:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by erol »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Mon 25 May 2020 11:23 pm
erol wrote:
Mon 25 May 2020 9:29 pm

Yeah cause only the left wing do this. Sounds like 'Left bad everything else good' non argument to me.
Pop onto Twitter and catch the left rent a gobs such as James O'Brien and you'll see that they have been tweeting or retweeting every 5 minutes for the last 2 days solid about this. For what is pretty much a non story. I doubt they would have given as much ink to 9/11. Actually bad example, they probably just dropped in a quick 'America had it coming' and left it at that.
And then right on cue up pops an Erol poll. Was there a Guardian competition today? A pound to enter obviously.
I wonder if as many people are influenced to break the lockdown rules by Cummings as we're encouraged to drink bleach by Trump 's press conference? You could amalgamate both your polls! In future could you include an I don't give a toss option? I think you'll be surprised by how popular that might be.

Personally I could take or leave Trump and Johnson and simply thought they were both the best of a bad choice but over the last year I've learnt to love them because of the left's reaction to them.
I love how they are consistently labelled fascists by people who couldn't tell the difference between The National Front and The National Trust.
You identify a 'problem'. People just knee jerk supporting everything or anything not on the merits of the actual thing but based on simplistic 'x,y,z good, everything else bad' dogma.

Yet you yourself display and operate on this very same basis to an extreme degree generally and to a degree far far in excess of those you accuse of doing this. A classic example is when I said I was judging how well countries were doing re the virus based on the factual numbers , that showed USA, bad, UK bad and Israel good and you just accused me of saying that not because of the factual numbers but because I just say 'USA bad, UK bad, Israel bad everything else good'. You literally ignored the numbers, ignored that i had said Israel good and just did the very thing you were accusing me of to a much greater degree.

I believe if you think something is wrong, if you want change, then that has to start, can only start with the thing you have total control over, yourself. If you think it is a problem that people 'just knee jerk support or not support anything based on dogma' then do your utmost to do that as little as you can yourself and you might make a difference. Just slating anyone, based on dogma, for doing it whilst you yourself indulge in the practice to an extreme degree is pointless and hypocritical in the extreme.

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Re: Poll - did Cummings break the rules ?

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Post by erol »

And to get back on topic.

To the loud and vociferous minority that is knee jerk defending DC and Johnson based on nothing but dogma look at the poll results. 83% of people here, hardly a hot bed of anti Brexit left wingers, who have voted think he broke the rules in either spirit or fact. 17% think he did not.

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Re: Poll - did Cummings break the rules ?

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36 people voted, no one really gives a toss it’s a non story.
Real story is you wanted to start a pile on or at least bathe in one for a while. You got called on it and are sulking because you feel under attack which is actually extremely ironic.

Interesting book on this kind of thing by John Ronson

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Post by erol »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 9:00 am
36 people voted, no one really gives a toss it’s a non story.
So why are you even posting in this thread if it is a 'non story' and if you and everyone else do not give a toss. Your actions do not match your claims as far as I can see. He doth protest too much methinks.
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 9:00 am
Real story is you wanted to start a pile on or at least bathe in one for a while. You got called on it and are sulking because you feel under attack which is actually extremely ironic.
Yeah because it is beyond all possibility or belief that I actually just wanted to see what other people here thought on the issue. Occam's razor.

I feel under attack because I AM being attacked.
websters dictionary wrote:Definition of ad hominem - 2 : marked by or being an attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions made
No doubt another thing your insightful world view tells you only the 'left' do even as you sit there doing it yourself.

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Re: Poll - did Cummings break the rules ?

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As for Cummings own feelings on the lockdown I imagine that they are the same as Johnson’s, they were bounced into it.
Logic tells me that the delay in lockdown was because they realised the enormous economic damage it would do. That was a certainty, the dangers/extent of the virus were far from a certainty at that point.

Sure there was data out there, but too much information and not all useful. Signals and noise. It’s like solving a jigsaw with 2 other useless jigsaws thrown in the box.

So they were thinking over options and how serious is this with many experts such as Ferguson doing their usual ‘we’re all going to die and I’m available for interviews and will have a book coming out.’
The media jumped on the band wagon.
The left looking at at least 5 years in the wilderness could see a stick to beat the government with and we had our usual hindsight experts holding up every piece of the jigsaw saying this might fit. Obviously it might fit and once you hold up every piece of the 3 jigsaws you can honestly and selectively say I offered all the correct pieces.

As I said earlier Cummings strikes me as a cold and analytical man. His personal view might well have been that the odds are we are going to have 50,000 dead which is a fair price to pay for avoiding the worst financial crisis in centuries. Ditto Johnson.
It’s a ruthless view and one you might not want to say out loud but when fighting a crisis you have to make hard decisions. Many like to go to war but get less enthusiastic when bodies start to pile up. Many don’t mind the bodies as long as they aren’t people they know.

Half the problem with politicians and CEOs these days is their short term vision and interests. As long as the inevitable catastrophe doesn’t happen on their watch they are very happy to pursue a course that long term is a disaster.
So politically Johnson had the situation where the media and the never accountable experts were screaming lockdown and he either locked down knowing the economy would burn but it would be easily explained away by saying well what did you think was going to happen or didn’t lockdown and every death would be his fault.

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Re: Poll - did Cummings break the rules ?

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erol wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 9:14 am

So why are you even posting in this thread if it is a 'non story' and if you and everyone else do not give a toss. Your actions do not match your claims as far as I can see. He doth protest too much methinks.
For me the story is the organised and concerted attack on Cummings and why.
Likewise the Milgram experiment isn’t the story of how painful an electrical shock is.

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Re: Poll - did Cummings break the rules ?

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erol wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 9:14 am

I feel under attack because I AM being attacked.
websters dictionary wrote:Definition of ad hominem - 2 : marked by or being an attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions made
No doubt another thing your insightful world view tells you only the 'left' do even as you sit there doing it yourself.
From 2015 to 2017 Momentum and other left activists very astutely worked out that social media was overtaking papers and television in influencing people. So they dominated the social media with faux outrage, manufactured pile ons, carefully created stunts with activist plants, character assassinations where the message can’t be debunked so the messenger is nullified etc etc.
It was a huge success as evidenced by the 2017 election.
Well obviously the other side caught onto it and are slowly repeating some of the same tactics or are least learning how to highlight and call out these stunts for what they are.
I think that underlined the fear and hatred that the left have for Cummings. He knows these tactics and can repeat them.
What greatly amuses me is the outrage when caught with their hand in the cookie jar.
Basically the left had first mover advantage but that only lasts so long.

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Re: Poll - did Cummings break the rules ?

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Unless you think it is all random? As well as confirming the content, have a look at the times
8D26162B-CB31-4847-ABFE-86E4E47E2EC5.jpeg

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Post by erol »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 9:35 am
For me the story is the organised and concerted attack on Cummings and why.
That does not explain the numbers seen in polls like this and elsewhere that you continue to ignore. Significant numbers of people who are not anti brexit, anti Tory, anti Cummings think he broke the rules. So unless you are arguing that these people are too stupid to think for themselves all I see you doing is trying to distract from this reality because your dogma does not like it when your side is caught with their hand in the cookie jar.

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Re: Poll - did Cummings break the rules ?

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Post by erol »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 9:54 am
Unless you think it is all random? As well as confirming the content, have a look at the times

8D26162B-CB31-4847-ABFE-86E4E47E2EC5.jpeg

That is different from the co-ordinated orchestrated defence of Cummings by ministers and Tory MP's how ? What is different, it seems to me, is how many on each side has 'broken ranks' with their respective parties official line. Another little fact you ignore when claiming this is all just a left wing conspiracy to oust DC.

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Post by Groucho »

erol wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 10:45 am
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 9:35 am
For me the story is the organised and concerted attack on Cummings and why.
That does not explain the numbers seen in polls like this and elsewhere that you continue to ignore. Significant numbers of people who are not anti brexit, anti Tory, anti Cummings think he broke the rules. So unless you are arguing that these people are too stupid to think for themselves all I see you doing is trying to distract from this reality because your dogma does not like it when your side is caught with their hand in the cookie jar.
Is that maybe, just maybe the way loaded questions... a favourite trick of yours I might add, elicit the response you crave?

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Re: Poll - did Cummings break the rules ?

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Post by erol »

Groucho wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 11:14 am
erol wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 10:45 am
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 9:35 am
For me the story is the organised and concerted attack on Cummings and why.
That does not explain the numbers seen in polls like this and elsewhere that you continue to ignore. Significant numbers of people who are not anti brexit, anti Tory, anti Cummings think he broke the rules. So unless you are arguing that these people are too stupid to think for themselves all I see you doing is trying to distract from this reality because your dogma does not like it when your side is caught with their hand in the cookie jar.
Is that maybe, just maybe the way loaded questions... a favourite trick of yours I might add, elicit the response you crave?
Again please be clear what you are saying. Are you claiming the poll question was loaded ? Are you claiming that you do not think there is an underlying reality that a majority think he broke the rules, either in spirit or in fact and the poll just looks that way because I with intent loaded the question to get the answer I wanted ? Is that what you are now claiming ? If not then please do let me know what it is you are now claiming ?

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Re: Poll - did Cummings break the rules ?

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erol wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 8:04 am
Groucho wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 4:53 am
erol wrote:
Mon 25 May 2020 9:24 pm


I have no idea what you are on about. You are claiming I said 'he must' what ? He must 'go' ? He must have been involved in formulating policy ? What ? Why not just say what you mean clearly ? Why not quote me rather than paraphrase me ? You accused me of mendacious intent. So spell it out for me please because I have no idea what you are on about.
You know jolly well that you were in so many words, and I mean in SO MANY WORDS stating that 'he' being Dominic Cummings 'must' being 'was the driving force' behind the lockdown rules. You are now trying to wriggle off the hook because you clearly overplayed your hand. You were making statements you expected to go unchallenged to further your political philosophy in an attempt to carry others along with you.
Once more you tell ME what I know and call me a liar. I did NOT know what you were on about, so I asked.

Now let's get back to reality and facts shall we ?

I asked if it made a difference if someone breaking the rules was instrumental in making them or not. You ignore that generic question entirely and say is it 'fact or assumption' that DC was instrumental in formulating the rules'. Yes it is fact that he Its was instrumental in making the rules. I think no normal person would doubt he was instrumental. What is more he said he was himself in the interview.
google wrote:What does instrumental mean? : very important in helping or causing something to happen or be done.
Will you ever answer the question I DID ask - does it matter more if someone, anyone, who IS instrumental in making the rules breaks them than someone who had nothing to do with making them breaks then ? Of course you will not answer this question. You will just mendaciously avoid answering that simple question and continue to make ad hominem attack instead.

You are also entirely inconsistent and hypocritical. Elsewhere ETS say's he 'understand Cummings wasn’t in favour of the lockdown'. No questioning from you as to if this is 'assumption of fact'. Nothing. Nada. Zip. Yet Cummings himself said explicitly in the interview he was in favour of lockdown and argued for it. I suggest indirectly that he was instrumental in formulating the rules and you flip you lid. See the difference ?
It's a loaded question because you posit within the foregoing text the notion that DC was the architect of the rules... leading to an objection, leading question by the prosecution, objection upheld please rephrase your question by any reasonable judge....

You are not the boss of me, I don't have answer your daft attempts to show me in a bad light simply because I refuse to join your crusade...

The polls you seem in such awe of are politically motivated attempts to undermine the Tory leadership, I have no desire to become one of sheep following the lefty shepherd of the populist media influencers.

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Re: Poll - did Cummings break the rules ?

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Post by erol »

Groucho wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 11:32 am
It's a loaded question because you posit within the foregoing text the notion that DC was the architect of the rules... leading to an objection, leading question by the prosecution, objection upheld please rephrase your question by any reasonable judge....
You continue to use and attribute to me terms I have not ever used like 'architect' and 'driving force' and even 'must'. The term I used was 'influential' and I even gave a google definition of that word that was the context in which I used it. You do all this whilst accusing ME of 'loading'. And whilst avoiding the plain and simple and clear point that I was making originally - it is worse if someone involved in making rules breaks them than if someone not involved does so.
Groucho wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 11:32 am
You are not the boss of me, I don't have answer your daft attempts to show me in a bad light simply because I refuse to join your crusade...
Have I ever said I was the boss of you ? Maybe just maybe you feel like you might be being perceived as being in a 'bad light' because of the things you have done and said as much as or more than anything I have done or said ?
Groucho wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 11:32 am
The polls you you seem in such awe of are politically motivated attempts to undermine the Tory leadership, I have no desire to become one of sheep following the lefty shepherd of the populist media influencers.
The motivation for creating the poll may be political, that is not the same things as the poll results being so. All you appear to be saying as I understand it is all those who are not anti brexit, anti tory, anti DC and have expressed the opinion that he did break the rules, are sheep unable to think for themselves and see through either my nefarious intent and shepherding or that of the left wing media's attempts (but never the right wings) but you are not. You are smarter. It is an argument of sorts. Just not one I personally find very compelling.

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Re: Poll - did Cummings break the rules ?

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Post by Groucho »

erol wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 8:04 am
Groucho wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 4:53 am
erol wrote:
Mon 25 May 2020 9:24 pm


I have no idea what you are on about. You are claiming I said 'he must' what ? He must 'go' ? He must have been involved in formulating policy ? What ? Why not just say what you mean clearly ? Why not quote me rather than paraphrase me ? You accused me of mendacious intent. So spell it out for me please because I have no idea what you are on about.
You know jolly well that you were in so many words, and I mean in SO MANY WORDS stating that 'he' being Dominic Cummings 'must' being 'was the driving force' behind the lockdown rules. You are now trying to wriggle off the hook because you clearly overplayed your hand. You were making statements you expected to go unchallenged to further your political philosophy in an attempt to carry others along with you.
Once more you tell ME what I know and call me a liar. I did NOT know what you were on about, so I asked.

Now let's get back to reality and facts shall we ?

I asked if it made a difference if someone breaking the rules was instrumental in making them or not. You ignore that generic question entirely and say is it 'fact or assumption' that DC was instrumental in formulating the rules'. Yes it is fact that he was instrumental in making the rules. I think no normal person would doubt he was instrumental. What is more he said he was himself in the interview.
google wrote:What does instrumental mean? : very important in helping or causing something to happen or be done.
Will you ever answer the question I DID ask - does it matter more if someone, anyone, who IS instrumental in making the rules breaks them than someone who had nothing to do with making them breaks then ? Of course you will not answer this question. You will just mendaciously avoid answering that simple question and continue to make ad hominem attack instead.

You are also entirely inconsistent and hypocritical. Elsewhere ETS say's he 'understand Cummings wasn’t in favour of the lockdown'. No questioning from you as to if this is 'assumption of fact'. Nothing. Nada. Zip. Yet Cummings himself said explicitly in the interview he was in favour of lockdown and argued for it. I suggest indirectly that he was instrumental in formulating the rules and you flip you lid. See the difference ?
For someone who accuses people of telling you what you think/mean it's a bit rich for you to jump to the conclusion that my not taking ETS to task over a statement he's made by implication must mean I hold that view.... I demand an apology.

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Re: Poll - did Cummings break the rules ?

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Post by erol »

Groucho wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 11:50 am
For someone who accuses people of telling you what you think/mean it's a bit rich for you to jump to the conclusion that my not taking ETS to task over a statement he's made by implication must mean I hold that view.... I demand an apology.
I am sorry if you think that I was saying you hold the same view as ETS on this. I was not saying that at all.

I was pointing out that when it suited you, in order to avoid the point I WAS making, you were happy to question if something as obvious as 'DC was influential in making the rules' was true or not. Yet when there was no need you apparently saw no reason to questions if ETS's claim that DC was 'anti lock down' was true or not, even after DC himself said in live press conference that it was not true.

So no accusation from me that you think the same as ETS on this. Just an accusation of 'dubious sincerity' in terms of you being a 'champion' of questioning if things attributed to DC are true or not.

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Re: Poll - did Cummings break the rules ?

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Why do these posts always end up in arguments stick to the question for Gods sake.

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erol wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 10:48 am

That is different from the co-ordinated orchestrated defence of Cummings by ministers and Tory MP's how ?
So one side attacks and the other side defends, the elite are hypocritical etc etc. All these things are non stories.

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erol wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 12:03 pm

even after DC himself said in live press conference that it was not true.
So to be clear, you have never been in a position when your boss has made a decision that you totally disagree with but then had to defend that decision to a customer as if you agree with it? To present a united front?
I'm pretty principled and don't count myself as a hypocrite but I've been in that position dozens of times. You know doubt are so principled and with your 20/20 hindsight know that his decision is wrong that you immediately resign on the spot?
Erol, I think posting on this forum is holding you back I think you would be better giving sermons from a mount.

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Re: Poll - did Cummings break the rules ?

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Post by erol »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 12:43 pm
erol wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 10:48 am

That is different from the co-ordinated orchestrated defence of Cummings by ministers and Tory MP's how ?
So one side attacks and the other side defends, the elite are hypocritical etc etc. All these things are non stories.
I agree they are 'non stories'. I just point out that it was YOU raising them in what appears to me as an attempt to divert from the thing that patently IS a story. Namely someone involved in making government rules being widely perceived to have broken them.

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Re: Poll - did Cummings break the rules ?

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erol wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 12:53 pm

I agree they are 'non stories'. I just point out that it was YOU raising them in what appears to me as an attempt to divert from the thing that patently IS a story. Namely someone involved in making government rules being widely perceived to have broken them.
So the Cummings thing is the biggest story of our age and he must be removed? Would a sacking or resignation be enough as it will achieve what the media and his opponents crave or do we need some sort of custodial sentence? Life?
I know you don't like people going to prison for long but he might have killed millions.
Yep think you are on message well done.

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Post by erol »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 12:51 pm
erol wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 12:03 pm

even after DC himself said in live press conference that it was not true.
So to be clear, you have never been in a position when your boss has made a decision that you totally disagree with but then had to defend that decision to a customer as if you agree with it? To present a united front?
I'm pretty principled and don't count myself as a hypocrite but I've been in that position dozens of times. You know doubt are so principled and with your 20/20 hindsight know that his decision is wrong that you immediately resign on the spot?
I have been in such a position though I think on any comparative scale I do not defend such things with any more vigour than average. The point is here that DC did not appear to me to reluctantly support a decision he did not really believe in. He explicitly went out of his way to make clear that he personally supported lock down and early lock down, quoted evidence for this in his pre covid writings about the dangers of novel virus pandemics and explicitly bemoaned false press reporting that said otherwise. Maybe that was all totally in sincere but personally lack of sincere is not an accusation I would level against him. There are plenty of accusations I would level against him but not in sincerity or timidity to say what he really thought because his boss thinks otherwise on any relative scale. What I see here is you 'choosing' what you would like to believ, constructing a narrative that supports that and ignoring the actual know facts.
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 12:51 pm
Erol, I think posting on this forum is holding you back I think you would be better giving sermons from a mount.
I think in an environment where an individual does in fact systematically and consistently behave better than some others in a range of ways it is inevitable that those who do not act as well and that also consistently accuse others of acting badly, will end accusing the person of 'giving sermons' or being 'holier than thou' in direct relation to the degree to which the person defends and illustrates how they themselves have in fact not acted as badly as the person making the accusations.

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Re: Poll - did Cummings break the rules ?

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BTW twitter has moved to phase 2 of the action plan.

Lots and lots of stories of people who's parents and children died who couldn't visit them or go to the funeral but Dominic Cummings.....

When you look at their profiles they are lefties without exception which makes me wonder if the virus is anti socialist/Marxist as well as anti BAME.

I don't want to be cynical but this might be the best indicator of deaths yet. They seem to run in their hundreds of thousands.

I don't doubt that the odd one is true but I have to say if one of my own was suffering it would take a bit more than following the rules to stop me seeing them. If that makes me selfish and unthinking, I'll own that or at least be honest about it.

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Re: Poll - did Cummings break the rules ?

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Post by erol »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 12:59 pm
erol wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 12:53 pm

I agree they are 'non stories'. I just point out that it was YOU raising them in what appears to me as an attempt to divert from the thing that patently IS a story. Namely someone involved in making government rules being widely perceived to have broken them.
So the Cummings thing is the biggest story of our age and he must be removed? Would a sacking or resignation be enough as it will achieve what the media and his opponents crave or do we need some sort of custodial sentence? Life?
I know you don't like people going to prison for long but he might have killed millions.
Yep think you are on message well done.
Back to classic straw man arguing as far as I am concerned.

I never said Cummings is the biggest story of our age. I simply pointed out that he IS a story in the way your 'defence' of him re labour lining up behind a consistent position is NOT a story.

I have not once in this thread called for his sacking or resignation. The closest I got was posting the link to change.org petition and did so with specific disclaimers. I have offered my opinion that 'mea culpa and contrition' would be a better way to handle this both for the PM and government themselves and for the national interest in terms of chance of people ignoring future guidance.

So again if all you want to do is argue against things I have NOT said then please just consider starting a thread of your own because I am not needed in such. If you want to discuss and argue with me then please try and do so on the basis of the things I have said and not on the basis of things I have NOT said. We all might get more reward from such discussion if you could manage that.
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Post by erol »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Tue 26 May 2020 1:07 pm
BTW twitter has moved to phase 2 of the action plan.
BTW and for the record I do not personally use twitter, I do not read twitter feeds and I only know what goes on there when it is reported outside of twitter. I make these personal choices because I think twitter is net damaging to society and diminishes our collective ability to think clearly and properly. I try and be the change I want to see and certainty the change I might bang on about insistently in others.

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