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Re: yes yes yes!!!!

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EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Tue 17 Nov 2020 11:44 am

Under Trump black unemployment and poverty is the lowest it has ever been.
Is this truly because of Trump? Or is this not just what Trump wants you to believe even though the seeds for a more equitable USA were sown by Obama and in fact Trump's attempt to undo the medical care package for poor Americans would have dealt a heavy blow in favour of the wealthy.

Trump has shown himself a master at claiming the success of others as his own whilst blaming anyone and everyone else for his errors.

What specific job creating measures has Trump been responsible for? What jobs would not have been created and what jobs would have been lost save for these measures?

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Allegedly ‘fisherman’ is now taboo on the BBC and is to be replaced by ‘fisherpeople’. The loony left get loonier by the minute! It’s a shame that they appear unable to direct their muddled thinking to more worthwhile ends.

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Groucho wrote:
Tue 17 Nov 2020 1:26 pm
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Tue 17 Nov 2020 11:44 am

Under Trump black unemployment and poverty is the lowest it has ever been.
Is this truly because of Trump? Or is this not just what Trump wants you to believe even though the seeds for a more equitable USA were sown by Obama and in fact Trump's attempt to undo the medical care package for poor Americans would have dealt a heavy blow in favour of the wealthy.

Trump has shown himself a master at claiming the success of others as his own whilst blaming anyone and everyone else for his errors.

What specific job creating measures has Trump been responsible for? What jobs would not have been created and what jobs would have been lost save for these measures?
Obamacare is a lovely idea. Like a lot of these ideas like free broadband etc etc it is a great idea that makes for a lovely virtue signaling speech. Unfortunately they never stack up and will bankrupt the country in a couple of decades. It's the typical buy all the children a pony but they'll be eating the pony to survive before too long.
Makes for a fluffy speech but not reality.

Trump has prioritised cutting regulation in business and bringing manufacturing jobs back to America. The economy does well and the people benefit. Now it isn't a 'we are going to do this for black people policy' which where we give out handouts and should guarantee black votes. It is a this will benefit the country as a whole and all the people within it so black people will benefit along with everyone else.

It is interesting that no jobs that have been created are down to Trump but every single covid death is.

Still it looks like sleepy Joe will have a go now. I have no doubt he will continue his fantastic work in the senate where he authorised the bill on err err oh what about when he championed err err?
Ok he picked up a salary for 47 years and backed segregationists when he needed to keep on the gravy train.
It should be a triumph

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Re: yes yes yes!!!!

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Brazen wrote:
Tue 17 Nov 2020 1:44 pm
Allegedly ‘fisherman’ is now taboo on the BBC and is to be replaced by ‘fisherpeople’. The loony left get loonier by the minute! It’s a shame that they appear unable to direct their muddled thinking to more worthwhile ends.
Maybe more birth people or persons that menstruate are becoming fisherpeople?

The worrying thing is this nonsense is going to kill people before too long.

The male to female transgender MMA fighter Fallon Fox who nearly killed Erika Newsome and Tamikka Brents is named the bravest athlete in history.

https://www.outsports.com/2020/1/14/210 ... rage-brave

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Post by Mowgli597 »

EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Tue 17 Nov 2020 11:44 am
Under Trump black unemployment and poverty is the lowest it has ever been.
That is true (i.e. a “fact”).

However as another respondent in this chain points out these figures continue a trend which began way before Trump’s presidency, but which he (like most politicians and people in other fields) like to attribute to themselves.

From BBC Reality Check

1. Is African-American unemploymenti HC the lowest in history?

The African-American unemployment rate reached 13.0% in August this year, the latest data available.
It's spiked sharply because of the huge impact of the coronavirus crisis on the US economy.

And this has disproportionately affected African-Americans - their unemployment rate is 4.6% higher than the overall figure.

But it's worth saying it went as low as 5.5% in September last year - the lowest figure recorded since the US Department of Labor started collecting these statistics in the 1970s.

Prior to the coronavirus crisis, there had been a consistent downward trend in African-American unemployment under President Trump.

But it's a trend which began under President Barack Obama, who saw the rate decline from 12.6% to 7.5% during his two terms in office from 2009 until 2017.

However, there remains a disparity in wages between different groups in the US.

The average income of African-American households is almost 60% less than white households, with growth stalling under President Trump, according to the latest statistics.

2. Is the African-American poverty rate at a record low?

In 2019, the latest data available, the African-American poverty rate was 18.8% - which is the lowest on record, beating the previous year, since the official count began in the 1960s.

That represents just over 8 million African-Americans in poverty, according to the US Census Bureau.

The US Census Bureau calculates poverty by judging that if a family's total income is less than the family's needs, then every person in that family is considered to be in poverty.

Black poverty also came down under President Obama, and was 21.8% in 2016 - his last full year in office.

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Mowgli597 wrote:
Tue 17 Nov 2020 3:49 pm
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Tue 17 Nov 2020 11:44 am
Under Trump black unemployment and poverty is the lowest it has ever been.
That is true (i.e. a “fact”).

However as another respondent in this chain points out these figures continue a trend which began way before Trump’s presidency, but which he (like most politicians and people in other fields) like to attribute to themselves.

From BBC Reality Check

1. Is African-American unemploymenti HC the lowest in history?

The African-American unemployment rate reached 13.0% in August this year, the latest data available.
It's spiked sharply because of the huge impact of the coronavirus crisis on the US economy.

And this has disproportionately affected African-Americans - their unemployment rate is 4.6% higher than the overall figure.

But it's worth saying it went as low as 5.5% in September last year - the lowest figure recorded since the US Department of Labor started collecting these statistics in the 1970s.

Prior to the coronavirus crisis, there had been a consistent downward trend in African-American unemployment under President Trump.

But it's a trend which began under President Barack Obama, who saw the rate decline from 12.6% to 7.5% during his two terms in office from 2009 until 2017.

However, there remains a disparity in wages between different groups in the US.

The average income of African-American households is almost 60% less than white households, with growth stalling under President Trump, according to the latest statistics.

2. Is the African-American poverty rate at a record low?

In 2019, the latest data available, the African-American poverty rate was 18.8% - which is the lowest on record, beating the previous year, since the official count began in the 1960s.

That represents just over 8 million African-Americans in poverty, according to the US Census Bureau.

The US Census Bureau calculates poverty by judging that if a family's total income is less than the family's needs, then every person in that family is considered to be in poverty.

Black poverty also came down under President Obama, and was 21.8% in 2016 - his last full year in office.
Exactly the points I was trying to make, claiming ownership of an inherited trend of improvement seems to be a Trump forte... anything that shows him in reflected glory is fine by those suckered into his cult.

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Groucho wrote:
Tue 17 Nov 2020 5:09 pm


Exactly the points I was trying to make, claiming ownership of an inherited trend of improvement seems to be a Trump forte... anything that shows him in reflected glory is fine by those suckered into his cult.
Bit like Labour taking all the credit for the creation of the NHS?

So he gets zero credit and Obama gets all the credit? Obviously if it stalls under sleepy Joe we will give Trump all the blame?
I’m sure the BBC will come up with something that will show it’s all Trumps fault.
Yep seems fair, what was that about a cult?

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Looking forward to Biden taking decisive action on covid. He’s had a 47 year apprenticeship so I’m sure he is ready to take up the reins.

I remember when Trump announced a flight ban on 1st February

Joe could have supported it but thought it best to just do a bit of virtue signalling

https://twitter.com/joebiden/status/122 ... 38370?s=21

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EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Tue 17 Nov 2020 5:49 pm
Looking forward to Biden taking decisive action on covid. He’s had a 47 year apprenticeship so I’m sure he is ready to take up the reins.

I remember when Trump announced a flight ban on 1st February

Joe could have supported it but thought it best to just do a bit of virtue signalling

https://twitter.com/joebiden/status/122 ... 38370?s=21
Is twitter a trusted source for you? For me it's only a source of amusement.... nevermind it takes all sorts... Trump's team needed to get his internet disabled but it's too late now, he confirmed pretty much what most people were coming to understand about the true nature of the beast...

Ah well covfefe as they say....

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Groucho wrote:
Tue 17 Nov 2020 6:10 pm

Is twitter a trusted source for you? For me it's only a source of amusement.... nevermind it takes all sorts... Trump's team needed to get his internet disabled but it's too late now, he confirmed pretty much what most people were coming to understand about the true nature of the beast...

Ah well covfefe as they say....
I trust that it’s Biden’s official twitter account so as Biden’s official twitter account I trust that he said it or at least authorised it being said.
The blue tick means that twitter has verified it as Biden’s official twitter account.
I know attacking the messenger when you are struggling to rebut the message seems to be a common tactic but don’t you think you are being ridiculous to try and say this isn’t a trusted source or from Biden or the Biden camp.

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EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Tue 17 Nov 2020 5:49 pm
Looking forward to Biden taking decisive action on covid. He’s had a 47 year apprenticeship so I’m sure he is ready to take up the reins.
Like wearing a mask and encouraging people to follow scientifically based guidelines?

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EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Tue 17 Nov 2020 7:23 pm
Groucho wrote:
Tue 17 Nov 2020 6:10 pm

Is twitter a trusted source for you? For me it's only a source of amusement.... nevermind it takes all sorts... Trump's team needed to get his internet disabled but it's too late now, he confirmed pretty much what most people were coming to understand about the true nature of the beast...

Ah well covfefe as they say....
I trust that it’s Biden’s official twitter account so as Biden’s official twitter account I trust that he said it or at least authorised it being said.
The blue tick means that twitter has verified it as Biden’s official twitter account.
I know attacking the messenger when you are struggling to rebut the message seems to be a common tactic but don’t you think you are being ridiculous to try and say this isn’t a trusted source or from Biden or the Biden camp.
I didn't say I thought it was fake, I was asking you if you view Twitter as trusted source for you? Personally I think 99% of the internet is misleading rubbish and therefore try and stick to news sources that are generally respected and accepted as largely politically independent when forming an opinion....

It's too easy to fall into the trap of popup websites that lace some truth with big lies and thereby propagate heavily prejudicial misinformation to muddy the waters. You know how it works - the content appears to be arguing the pros and cons of both sides to make you think it's being created by independence of thought - then bam! A totally unsubstantiated conclusion with no supporting evidence that you are meant to buy into.. like the claims (all hearsay) that the postal votes have been rigged to steal the election... it's clever stuff and people have shown themselves to be all-too susceptible to such propaganda... mostly because they are pre-disposed to believe anything that matches their preferred narrative. It is a very normal and common human trait that has a long history. Never has this been more prevalent and more abused than now... all thanks to the internet.

The internet was seen as a great democratiser but once the spin-doctors realised it could be used to manipulate public perception to gain acceptance for what are lies then it has become anti-democratic...

Basically everyone needs to treat reportage with a high degree of scepticism otherwise you are just cannon fodder. I tend to only rely on the spoken word and I'm sorry to say Trump's spoken word has been his downfall. I just wonder if those of his own team and party can believe the arrant nonsense that he has continued to spout in increasingly desperate attempts to portray himself as the victim of a wicked plot... all too much evidence of paranoia and megalomania for me to trust anything he utters now.

BTW as you mentioned it - in reference to the photographic evidence of the poor turn-out for his inauguration - do you for one minute think only one source would have been available and that if as Trump said 'a record crowd' gathered that they could not have found shots from when many many admirers were there? I don't. I think he was spitting blood and totally jealous as hell that Obama was so popular...

It seems obvious that he thinks he should be loved because he thinks he's a great guy, he thinks he should be loved because he thinks he's clever as hell and everyone should love and respect him unconditionally even when he's getting Donald Jr. to retweet tweets aimed at promoting accusations of paedophilia by Biden - as it turned out, a chump move that may have cost him support. But you tell us, was this a smart thing for a US President to dirty his hands with? Because I sure don't...

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Re: yes yes yes!!!!

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Groucho wrote:
Tue 17 Nov 2020 9:47 pm
I tend to only rely on the spoken word
Well it’s always the most accurate :)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WGRnhBmHYN0

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Mowgli597 wrote:
Tue 17 Nov 2020 9:38 pm

Like wearing a mask and encouraging people to follow scientifically based guidelines?
Or accusing someone of xenophobia because they stop flights from China?

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EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Wed 18 Nov 2020 12:51 am
Groucho wrote:
Tue 17 Nov 2020 9:47 pm
I tend to only rely on the spoken word
Well it’s always the most accurate :)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WGRnhBmHYN0
You know fine well that Biden is referring to the measures taken by the state (not him) to tackle attempts at voter fraud... measures Donald Trump's administration is responsible for - Trump is the President after all...

Biden is merely stating his confidence in those measures because Trump has very publicly chosen to bad-mouth them... mainly because he feels the need to undermine confidence in the vote - knowing as he does that he is not as popular as he keeps on telling everyone he is....

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p08yf9sh

Interesting revenge?

It seems 'Hell hath no fury... like a Trump scorned...'

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Groucho wrote:
Wed 18 Nov 2020 8:02 am
You know fine well that Biden is referring to the measures taken by the state (not him) to tackle attempts at voter fraud...
I can only go on his spoken word which doesn't seem to say that :)
Seriously, he obviously misspoke and I can imagine his advisors holding their heads when he came out with that beauty.
The fact that he seems to constantly put his foot in it and has a long career of non-achievement. So him as an upgrade on Trump? I’m not convinced. I believe a big part of Trump’s appeal was he wasn’t an insider or a politician who doesn’t really listen or engage with the people and talks down to them and patronises them. Biden seems a step back to the professional politician.
Re the crowds. Trumps crowd was pretty much an average Republican crown at an inauguration. It’s a democrat city so Democrats are always going to get higher crowds. It is also a slight majority black city so someone who creates history by becoming the first black president is going to pull one hell of a crowd. I would imagine black republicans would go. Obama himself couldn’t match it. The crowd for his second inauguration was less than half of the first. The fact Trump gets childish about it is ludicrous but I never said he was a nice man I just said I think he is a better option than Hilary or sleepy Joe.
I don’t like Trump and most of what you say about him is true but I think he has done a solid job and in the case of foreign diplomacy such as South Korea I think his irrationality has proved an advantage tbh. He also has not been treated fairly by the press. If you don’t feel the media treat you fairly or report you correctly then I guess you will rely on twitter to get your message out there. Trump in the main with some notable mistakes has done this quite well. The problem with twitter is if you engage keyboard before brain you are going to make some horrendous mistakes.
With regard to trusted sources of media and the impact of the internet there are a few points I’d make.
Personally I read a fair few papers online and hope I get a reasonable broad spectrum of views. I read a lot of books too and try to use critical thinking and logic.
The papers have a bias as do people and people will read the papers that caters to that bias. Most people and all sides are guilty of that.
With regard to the spoken word I assume you mean TV appearances? These too can be manipulated. Unless you are watching a press conference live can you be sure that the question asked matches to the answer shown? They do like to switch those around.
Even on live shows there are the gotcha interviews. This is where a politician will be bought in to answer questions on the Common Agricultural policy and so thoroughly prepare for that only to be asked questions on immigration. He or she, totally surprised and unprepared will stutter their way through answers without any facts etc and look ridiculous. So the spoken word isn’t as it seems.
Another sad thing is television gives us style over content. The smooth salesman such as Obama, Blair or Cameron will ensure style will be more important than content. These days someone like Bevan and his stutter would not perform well on television.
The internet has got good points and bad points and lends itself to stunts such as an activist posing as a father and nonsense like that. The internet will become increasingly dangerous if the likes of google, facebook and twitter show a political bias. I think those companies need breaking down because the monopolies they now hold make them the most powerful businesses in history. Murdoch is always bought up as someone who holds too much power to make or break politicians but his day is done. The power he might have wielded is like a pea shooter against the cannons of Jack Dorsey or Mark Zuckerberg. But the internet and social media is here to stay and, if it’s not already, will be the go to place for news.

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Re: yes yes yes!!!!

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To read reports in the press about Trump’s supporters in Washington, D.C., over the weekend, you’d think the crowd was made up of a bunch of conspiracy theory-addled delusional far-right extremists all of them hoodwinked into thinking the election was stolen.

Apparently 70 percent of Republicans now say they don’t believe the presidential election was free and fair. That news was met with contempt from the Democrats and the media.

The media have decided that any claims of voter fraud or ballot-counting irregularities, whether from Trump or others is “baseless,” “unfounded,” and have “no evidence” It appears to me they have made this decision quickly and with very little investigation.

We do know that to ensure “voter access” during the pandemic there was a flood of changes to election rules in the months leading up to the vote, including an unprecedented expansion of mail-in voting, a method of casting ballots that removes almost all oversight from the process.

In a lot of states main-in votes seem to have been the deciding factor.

States mailed ballots to outdated voter rolls and loosened oversight for how those ballots could be collected and counted. Chain-of-custody for absentee ballots went out the window, along with whatever safeguards usually apply to absentee voting. Ballot harvesting was introduced in some places for the first time. Taken together, all these reforms presented an ideal opportunity to flood absentee ballot-counting centers in major cities and run up the vote-count long after the polls closed on Election Day.

In Philadelphia poll watchers reported how they were forcibly kept from observing the counting of absentee ballots as required under state law.

Not all the reports of ballot-counting skullduggery amount to voter fraud, but they do undermine the integrity of an election.

In Pennsylvania, the state supreme court brushed off rules set by lawmakers and extended the deadline for when absentee ballots could be received. Extending deadlines for absentee ballots is an invitation to break election laws. Philadelphia does have a history of ballot-stuffing and bribing election judges.

In Georgia they changed the rules for accepting mail-in ballots. Instead of the signature on the ballot having to match the signature on the voter rolls, it only had to match the signature on the mail-in ballot application. You don’t need to be too sophisticated a fraudulent ballot counted under such rules.
A dozen states temporarily expanded mail-in voting just for the 2020 election. Others mailed ballots to everyone on the voter rolls. Many others extended the mail-in ballot deadline, set up ballot drop boxes, and allowed mail-in ballot harvesting on a mass scale.
Any reasonable person can look at these changes and conclude they create conditions ripe for fraud and abuse. I can’t see that you can look at all of the above and immediately conclude, as the media has that there was no fraud.
Whether it was enough to change the outcome of the election, we’ll probably never know, because the abuse of mass mail-in voting is hard to detect and even harder to prove in court. But pointing all of this out even saying you don’t have much confidence that the election was fair, doesn’t make you a conspiracy theorist.
You may be happy with it if your side has won and the orange man is out but maybe next time the other side might up their game? The world seems more divided now and people not having 100% faith in elections is not a good road to go down.

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EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Wed 18 Nov 2020 1:23 pm


Apparently 70 percent of Republicans now say they don’t believe the presidential election was free and fair. That news was met with contempt from the Democrats and the media.
Who do you think is primarily to blame for this perception then? It's certainly not the mainstream media, they have been constantly reporting that there is no evidence of meaningful voter fraud.

To date not a single case of voter fraud has been substantiated

Oh yes, that's where it came from - err Trump, that's it, he's the source of the rumour and the author of his followers distrust of the process... so the cult of Trump is founded on the biggest lie.

He will not process loss so he refuses to accept the fact, like a spoiled birthday boy refusing to believe that someone else beat him at pin the tail on the donkey and goes on to insist that his loss is bogus and somebody must have moved the donkey... now he's sulking and refusing to blow-out the candles and move on.

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Groucho wrote:
Wed 18 Nov 2020 2:47 pm

Who do you think is primarily to blame for this perception then? It's certainly not the mainstream media, they have been constantly reporting that there is no evidence of meaningful voter fraud.
Of course it's not the mainstream media. People have doubts about the election and the media immediately brand them conspiracy nuts with zero investigation. That would really reassure me!

"Err President Nixon there has been a break in...."
"No there hasn't"
"Good enough for me. So after an exaustive investigation which took 20 minutes....."
Groucho wrote:
Wed 18 Nov 2020 2:47 pm

To date not a single case of voter fraud has been substantiated
In this election? Probably not, generally if you don't investigate something you don't find anything wrong,

Voter fraud ever?

I'm more than happy to help you there. Here's Pennsylvania. That took all of 20 seconds to find.

https://www.legis.state.pa.us/WU01/LI/T ... TSTMNY.pdf


Let's be honest you don't really care if the system is broken, you want the orange man out so your interest will end there.
You will read a paper that tells you orange man is gone and the election is ok and that's where your curiosity ends.
Biden smashing Obama's numbers. Biden winning states that Obama couldn't doesn't raise the slightest curiosity in you.
The fact that there were already flaws in the system and mail in ballots are wide open to abuse. So what as long as they get Trump out who cares eh?
How would they be able to say the election was fine within hours? Did they check any mail in ballots in that time?

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So your contention is that as they haven't found any voter fraud of note (note meaning a serious level Indicating a concerted effort to swing the vote) means they haven't looked?

That's a bit of a stretch. They have a whole lot of people constantly checking for such occurrences but because Trump didn't like what he's heard he's sacked Krebs the head, as is his wont when it doesn't suit his own view. A view formed on the basis that he does not accept loss, rather than actual proof.

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Groucho wrote:
Thu 19 Nov 2020 3:12 am

So your contention is that as they haven't found any voter fraud of note (note meaning a serious level Indicating a concerted effort to swing the vote) means they haven't looked?
That's a bit of a stretch.
Trump was screaming fraud before the election and during the count and the media slapped him down saying there is no evidence of voter fraud. So at that point I'm pretty sure they hadn't looked. Obviously there will never be any evidence of voter fraud if you don't look.

On your favourite twitter;

David Shafer, The Chairman of The Republican Party in Georgia has produced evidence that one batch of votes was labeled 10,707 for Biden and 13 for Trump in DeKalb county when in fact it was 1.081 for Biden and 13 for Trump. Quite a mistake and bear in mind Biden is winning this state by 14,000 votes out of 5 million cast.
Mistakes happen it might not be sinister but what is interesting is the little twitter war that went on.

Brendan Keefe, a journalist/broadcaster immediately disputed that this happened.
Then when all sides said it happened he said it was a glitch and was immediately caught and corrected.
Shafer then pointed out this was untrue, it was discovered by a Republican monitor after TWO official counters signed off on the erroneous count.'
He also points out that The Republicans are allowed 1 monitor between 10 counting stations.

By all means check it out but it illustrates 'mistakes' happen although they only seem to favour Biden. It also illustrates that the media do not care to investigate because they have the result they want.
This guy is an award winning investigative journalist and this is happening in his state and it is arousing zero curiosity in him. He is now having to show this evidence but is still pointing out it wouldn't alter the result!

Again;

Would they do it? The Democrats have a long history of voter fraud. Lyndon Landslide Johnson run off against Coke Stevensen is almost laughable now. Remember it was the Democrat party in The South that was stopping black people voting in the 60s

Could they do it. Georgia is going to go to Biden by less than 20,000 votes. The Republicans luckily caught one 10,000 'mistake' in one batch in one ward. Mail In votes are known to not be ideal and a lot of the checks and balances have gone out the window. So 100% they could do it.
Bear in mind that a lot of The Republican Party apparatus hate Trump.

Did they do it? With the media thirst for investigatory journalism we will probably never know. This would need forensic checking. Trump was always going to whine about voter fraud but it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

I realise Trump encouraged his voters to turn up in person but even so, some of these mail in numbers for Biden would embarrass Kim Jong Un or Saddam Hussain. I think even Assad would say "98%? Come on guys let's not get carried away!"

TBH Biden isn't a bad thing as long as he can stay alive and keep that dreadful woman out.
The worry always is that they may do something irreversible but given sleepy Joe's activity levels over 47 years I would imagine he is just going to pick up the salary and feather Hunter's nest. If you are hoping he is going to cure covid or kick start the world economy then you are going to have a long wait. Delaware waited 36 years for him to wake up

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Post by erol »

Keep saying voter fraud over and over and over. Before , during and after. Fraud. Fraud. Fraud.

Yet neither you EJS, nor Trump for that matter, has shown an iota of evidence of fraud. His legal teams have in fact gone to pains to deny any such claim in the countless cases he has already lost. Fraud - wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain. Finding errors in a human process like this is not evidence of fraud. Such a process that had no such errors at all would in fact be indicative of fraud because it is impossible.

Such errors happen in every election. In every previous presidential election. The loser does not normally go around looking to find every possible error in their favour but not the other way round in multiple states whilst refusing to start the transfer process. To try and make out that what Trump is doing is normal, typical, reasonable and rational and just a search for the truth is the biggest load of baloney I have heard. There are in fact laws to prevent vexatious people from starting endless litigation without any reasonable cause.

Trumps behaviour is not normal, rational or reasonable because Trump is not normal, rational or reasonable.

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Of course errors happen in every election but a lot of errors seem to favour one candidate.
To find evidence you need to be willing to look for it.
I do not know whether there was fraud. I do know that the amount of mail in votes and loosening of procedures made the election less secure than normal.
I do know that there have been some very unusual numbers that bear further scrutiny.
I do know for elections and democracy to work that needs to be 100% faith in it.
I do know the rush to brush off any questions with this speed will diminish that faith.
I do know the same people who would be thrilled if we kept having enquiries on Russian interference on an election 4 years ago seem reticent to have an enquiry in an election 4 hours ago.
If we discover that there was something that was fishy in just Georgia and Biden still won then finding out that problem and putting in safeguards for the future would be a worthwhile exercise.

But then I believe in democracy some pay it lip service and just believe in attaining power.

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I do know, as I suspect you do too, that if Trump had won every state he thought he would win he would characterise any call for a recount an attack on democracy..

Has he called for a recount in any state he has won?

Has Joe Biden called for a recount where he has lost?

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EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Thu 19 Nov 2020 3:57 pm
Of course errors happen in every election but a lot of errors seem to favour one candidate.
So you claim. I see no credible evidence that error rates favour a particular candidate. I see a loser looking to find every single error in their favour possible even though such will not change the outcome, who also shouts fraud, fraud, fraud over and over. Before , during and after.
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Thu 19 Nov 2020 3:57 pm
To find evidence you need to be willing to look for it.
In every election their is an army of people, from all walks of life, all political persuasions, genders and ages. Ordinary decent people committed to seeing votes counted fairly and correctly. Hierarchal layers of checks and re checks. Real hard actual work done by real actual people. 10's of thousands of them. Fraud. Fraud. Fraud.
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Thu 19 Nov 2020 3:57 pm
I do not know whether there was fraud.
The things you do not know are infinite. You know there was not systematic organised covert fraud by democrats. You know this as much as you know conspiracy theories that would require 10,000s of people to keep silent are for the birds.
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Thu 19 Nov 2020 3:57 pm
I do know that the amount of mail in votes and loosening of procedures made the election less secure than normal.
You know this do you ? How exactly ? The very body who job it is to study and evaluate a given elections security, led by someone appointed by trump, declared this the most secure election ever. Trump fired him for saying that. So is he also in on the alleged democrat fraud ? All you have, meaning all Trump has, is hearsay and gossip as far as I am concerned.
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Thu 19 Nov 2020 3:57 pm
I do know that there have been some very unusual numbers that bear further scrutiny.
Give an example of an 'unusual number' that bears scrutiny.
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Thu 19 Nov 2020 3:57 pm
I do know for elections and democracy to work that needs to be 100% faith in it.
And if the loosing President claims an election was fraudulent, before, during and after an election when in fact it was NOT fraudulent, how does that affect the necessary faith for democracy to work ?
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Thu 19 Nov 2020 3:57 pm
I do know the rush to brush off any questions with this speed will diminish that faith.
What rush ? This is already the second longest delay to an orderly transition of power in the US's entire history, with only the 'hanging chads' issue causing such delay ever before. There is no atypical rush by precedent at all. There is a totally atypical and entirely partisan effort to delay things way beyond any previous norms set by precedent.
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Thu 19 Nov 2020 3:57 pm
If we discover that there was something that was fishy in just Georgia and Biden still won then finding out that problem and putting in safeguards for the future would be a worthwhile exercise.
And if it turns out there was nothing 'fishy' in Georgia or anywhere else and yet 10s of millions of Americans believe there is despite reality because Trump keep insisting there was fraud ? What impact does that have on your 'beloved' democracy ?
EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Thu 19 Nov 2020 3:57 pm
But then I believe in democracy some pay it lip service and just believe in attaining power.
You can try and make out that your concern is for 'fairness' but you are not fooling me at all. You simply seek to try and defend Trump because he is on your 'side' even when there is no defence. Which begs the question is there any behaviour from the leader of your 'side' that you would ever be capable of condemning rather than try and excuse ?

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And if there was such massive fraud as Trump and his supporters allege then why was it only perpetrated on the presidential election and not also on elections to the Senate and House of Representatives?

After all, even when Biden does become President he will be severely hamstrung by the Republican controlled Senate - unless, of course, the REAL conspiracy is for the Democrats to win the two remaining seats going to a run-off in Georgia in January.

Then the VP will have the casting vote!

Damn clever devils!

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Like I say I haven’t a problem with Biden as he is going to do his usual zero so let’s wrap up this election because people thinking their vote is worthless is always going to end well.

Groucho, Erol, Mowgli do you believe in voter ID?

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Since 1964 Georgia has pretty much been a Republican state.

Renember Obama lost it twice.

Clinton won 1992 by a landslide but nicked Georgia by 13,000 helped by Perot taking 300,000 votes mainly from Bush Snr.
Lost Georgia next time even though he again won the election in another landslide against the underwhelming Bob Dole.

Ok Jimmy Carter won there but he’s from Georgia.

So Trump can’t win Georgia 2nd time round because he’s what? Too right ring, too racist?
George Wallace won there in 1968 over Richard Nixon.

But nothing to see here let’s get back to those Russians and 1968

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As regards your question concerning voter ID, yes, I believe in some cases it is necessary and is usually enshrined in election legislation in most democracies. However I would strongly condemn its draconian use to suppress legitimate voters from exercising their mandate

Could Georgia not have followed the pattern seen in the U.K. after the last election and the so-called “Red Wall”? Constituencies which have been solid Labour for decades changed. Perhaps enough people had had enough of Trump, especially in light of the very different world we’re in right now vis-a-vis Covid and Trump’s handling of the pandemic. Just a thought.

As regards Russian interference in U.S. (and, indeed, other countries’) politics why is that so unbelievable in today’s “cyber age”? We know it’s happening in other areas so why not elections?

The Mueller report certainly identified Russian interference in the 2016 election, in spite of the subsequent administration’s every effort to stymie its work. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mueller_report is worth a read.

“[The Report] also identifies links between Trump campaign officials and individuals with ties to the Russian government, about which several persons connected to the campaign made false statements and obstructed investigations. Mueller later stated that his investigation's conclusion on Russian interference "deserves the attention of every American".......

“..... the investigation "does not conclude that the President committed a crime"; however, "it also does not exonerate him", with investigators not confident of Trump's innocence.”

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Can someone call for Brinsley to play hes stuck in general washing his shirts.

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BBC News

US President-elect Joe Biden's victory in Georgia has been confirmed by a recount, as legal efforts by Donald Trump's allies to challenge his defeat were dismissed in three states.

The Democrat beat his Republican rival in Georgia by 12,284 votes, according to the audit required by state law.

Mr Biden said he was confident Mr Trump knew he was not going to win and had shown "incredible irresponsibility".

Trump campaign senior legal adviser Jenna Ellis said the audit had gone "exactly as we expected" because, she said without evidence, the state had recounted illegal ballots.

So still they seek to undermine confidence in the ballot which could lead to civil unrest... when will they understand that lack of proof is just that? No doubt that Trump has undermined trust - mostly in himself with his name-calling lash-out style...hardly the stuff of presidential legacy... all very sad.

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

Groucho wrote:
Fri 20 Nov 2020 6:28 am

US President-elect Joe Biden's victory in Georgia has been confirmed by a recount,
Who wants a recount, an audit is needed.
If I pointed out you had two thousand dollars but I think five hundred dollars of it might be forged that doesn't mean I want you to recount it.

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Mowgli597 wrote:
Thu 19 Nov 2020 9:20 pm
As regards your question concerning voter ID, yes, I believe in some cases it is necessary and is usually enshrined in election legislation in most democracies. However I would strongly condemn its draconian use to suppress legitimate voters from exercising their mandate
So what you mean is you can't say no but you never want to see it as it will be draconian. You need ID to get a library book. Some people don't have a driving licence or passport? Must make life very difficult for them but OK the government will issue them with free verified ID which will not only enable them to vote but make their day to day life much easier? Problem solved and we can have voter ID? I don't think so I'm sure there will be another problem.
Mowgli597 wrote:
Thu 19 Nov 2020 9:20 pm

Could Georgia not have followed the pattern seen in the U.K. after the last election and the so-called “Red Wall”? Constituencies which have been solid Labour for decades changed. Perhaps enough people had had enough of Trump, especially in light of the very different world we’re in right now vis-a-vis Covid and Trump’s handling of the pandemic. Just a thought.
It's possible.
Trump's vote in 2016 was 2.089 million this time round it was 2,46 million so it’s not as if his support fell off a cliff. If we look at Durham North West the conservative vote went up a bit but the labour vote collapsed. So maybe sleepy Joe inspired people like Obama and Clinton couldn’t? It’s possible I guess but seems unlikely so lets check it out
Mowgli597 wrote:
Thu 19 Nov 2020 9:20 pm
As regards Russian interference in U.S. (and, indeed, other countries’) politics why is that so unbelievable in today’s “cyber age”? We know it’s happening in other areas so why not elections?
That’s believable but messing with postal ballots isn’t? But we’ve looked at it for 4 years and people are still keen to keep examining it. What I find surprising is those same people want to wrap up this election as soon as possible. The President doesn’t take office until January. Is there anything in Biden’s career that makes you think that he is going to be a hive of activity and every day is vital? He hasn’t done ANYTHING for 47 years. What harm is there in auditing this election so everyone is comfortable that their vote counts?

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erol wrote:
Thu 19 Nov 2020 4:59 pm
You know this as much as you know conspiracy theories that would require 10,000s of people to keep silent are for the birds.
This wouldn't take thousands of people or anything like. Even if it did this isn't a matter of finding thousands of people to murder their fellow citizens as in 9/11 it would require thousands of committed party members to gild the lily a bit and remove a 'fascist." Also cover ups are difficult because someone will always sell the story. The problem here is you need the media to want to buy it/print it.
erol wrote:
Thu 19 Nov 2020 4:59 pm
You know this do you ? How exactly ?
Postal votes are less secure than walk in votes. This is a fact as you well know
erol wrote:
Thu 19 Nov 2020 4:59 pm

Give an example of an 'unusual number' that bears scrutiny.
Georgia for reasons I've covered.

erol wrote:
Thu 19 Nov 2020 4:59 pm

What rush ? This is already the second longest delay to an orderly transition of power in the US's entire history, with only the 'hanging chads' issue causing such delay ever before. There is no atypical rush by precedent at all. There is a totally atypical and entirely partisan effort to delay things way beyond any previous norms set by precedent.
The media was full of nothing to see here during the count when there were some very large swings.

erol wrote:
Thu 19 Nov 2020 4:59 pm


You can try and make out that your concern is for 'fairness' but you are not fooling me at all. You simply seek to try and defend Trump because he is on your 'side' even when there is no defence. Which begs the question is there any behaviour from the leader of your 'side' that you would ever be capable of condemning rather than try and excuse ?
I don't like Trump I have agreed with every comment that says he is an ego maniac etc etc. I have even added that whilst I favour a businessman to run government that I don't think he is a particularly good businessman.
What I do want it's a move away from the professional do nothing politicians that we are breeding and which Hilary and Biden represent.
I was very worried about Corbyn because I believe that he may have damaged Britain irretrievably or certainly for a very long time. Biden is perfect for me because as long as he doesn't peg it or become incapacitated he is going to do zero.
But I do think you are projecting there Erol. Let's be honest you and others want the orange man out so aren't to bothered about how. As for democracy the left have always had a fairly elastic feel for democracy. For example one man one vote within the union movement for years. Voter ID or any moves to make elections more transparent will get lip service but zero effort to ever bring it in.
Last edited by EnjoyingTheSun on Fri 20 Nov 2020 1:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Groucho wrote:
Fri 20 Nov 2020 6:28 am

So still they seek to undermine confidence in the ballot which could lead to civil unrest...
I can't believe you came out with that tbh.
Like the mass boarding up of windows in case Trump won?
So if our side doesn't win don't be surprised if you have riots?
So one side trying to get a vote properly verified is undemocratic and unsporting but another side threatening insurrection is democratic and sporting?
Yes that seems democratic ;)

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EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Fri 20 Nov 2020 12:26 pm
Groucho wrote:
Fri 20 Nov 2020 6:28 am

So still they seek to undermine confidence in the ballot which could lead to civil unrest...
I can't believe you came out with that tbh.
Like the mass boarding up of windows in case Trump won?
So if our side doesn't win don't be surprised if you have riots?
So one side trying to get a vote properly verified is undemocratic and unsporting but another side threatening insurrection is democratic and sporting?
Yes that seems democratic ;)
If there's any protests that turn nasty, I'm pretty sure it will be Trump's redneck gun toting devotees egged on by Trump.... I'm surprised you think I meant anything else, but then again not.... as deliberately pretending not to get the intended meaning is a little trick you indulge in to twist the debate to suit your anti-Biden/anti Democrat agenda.

BTW the Georgia recount was also an official audit according to the officials in charge (Republicans), so do you still not accept the result? Trump is still telling everyone he's won....

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Groucho wrote:
Sat 21 Nov 2020 10:45 am

If there's any protests that turn nasty, I'm pretty sure it will be Trump's redneck gun toting devotees egged on by Trump....
Bit like the peaceful BLM protest in the summer which had the police joining in and taking knees to little avail as 40 odd of them were injured. A week later there was a 'far right', or to be realistic a fair crowd which included a dozen Millwall supporters looking for trouble. That was met by police in full riot gear and let to zero police injuries?

Sure there might be a handful of 'redneck gun toting devotees' but I'm sure all the boards have been taken off the windows have now been taken down which they wouldn't have been had Trump won. That speaks volumes as there is only one side that is promoting riots and civil unrest here as you well know.
But I guess you think Antifa are a peaceful group gently protesting about racism? I'm more than happy to put up dozens of videos showing their 'peaceful' demonstrations if you missed them? I think I'd struggle to find any of them tackling gun totting rednecks though as they seem to specialise more in bullying elderly people in Trump/MAGA hats.

But keep demonising 'deplorables,' Keep labelling everyone fascists. Keep patronising and ignoring ordinary people. Then undermine confidence that peoples votes count. That's really going to end well.

Groucho wrote:
Sat 21 Nov 2020 10:45 am
BTW the Georgia recount was also an official audit according to the officials in charge (Republicans), so do you still not accept the result? Trump is still telling everyone he's won....
Pretty quick 'audit.' They managed to check signatures and addresses for a decent sample of 5 million votes, checked the software and investigated the affidavits from people and interviewed them? In that time frame? Doubt that very much.
Let's be honest, they counted the votes a bit slower and that's it.

As for the Republicans looking out for Trump's interests you seem to think Trump is in their club?
If you remember, no one knew whether Trump was going to run as a Democrat or Republican? He isn't one of the professional politicians that populate governments. So Republicans swallowing and cutting Trump loose and rebuilding for 2020 wouldn't surprise me in the least. Tactically it is probably the wisest move. Trump cares more about Trump than the Republican Party and would happily see them in opposition for 50 years if he thought he could get another term and The Republicans are on a damage limitation mission.

Trump is a braggart, ego maniac, meglomaniac, self centred etc etc etc. Doesn't mean he is a fascist or he is wrong here. There is a smell about this, in some states more than others and there seems to be little will to have a look at it.

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EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Sat 21 Nov 2020 11:23 am
So Republicans swallowing and cutting Trump loose and rebuilding for 2020 wouldn't surprise me in the least. Tactically it is probably the wisest move.
Really a bit late? So not a wise move...

You are clutching at straws...

The audit only needed to address the mail-in vote.... or are you suggesting Trump thinks dead people took part in the live ballot?

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Groucho wrote:
Sat 21 Nov 2020 6:13 pm


You are clutching at straws...

The audit only needed to address the mail-in vote.... or are you suggesting Trump thinks dead people took part in the live ballot?
You think Trump is part of The Republican machine? Really?

There is no way they have done a even cursory audit on the mail in votes in that time frame.

Apparently the DeKalb County, Georgia, elections manager has been fired. I guess I’m the only one curious as to whether it is true and why.

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EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Sat 21 Nov 2020 6:31 pm
Groucho wrote:
Sat 21 Nov 2020 6:13 pm


You are clutching at straws...

The audit only needed to address the mail-in vote.... or are you suggesting Trump thinks dead people took part in the live ballot?
You think Trump is part of The Republican machine? Really?

There is no way they have done a even cursory audit on the mail in votes in that time frame.

Apparently the DeKalb County, Georgia, elections manager has been fired. I guess I’m the only one curious as to whether it is true and why.
Where did I say any such thing? But it wasn't Democrats who picked Trump as their candidate...

As for anyone getting fired, Trump expects nothing less than that each person who does not ratify his 'win' should be put to the sword... being sacked by Trump is surely a badge of honour that the recipients can wear with pride knowing they at least have some vestige of honour left... although not this person.

"The county said 59 additional ballots that were not initially scanned and counted were found during the audit. The hand count in DeKalb County showed a 732 vote difference from the original count. DeKalb County said an investigation revealed it was a negligent act with the employee failing to follow proper protocol."

That's a rather small difference out of 373,000 DeKalb County residents and the additional numbers may be for Biden...

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Groucho wrote:
Sat 21 Nov 2020 8:44 pm

As for anyone getting fired, Trump expects nothing less than that each person who does not ratify his 'win' should be put to the sword... being sacked by Trump is surely a badge of honour that the recipients can wear with pride knowing they at least have some vestige of honour left... although not this person.
Or if someone is negligent doing an important job then they need to be removed from it. So if someone is negligent but it gets the orange man out then they should be honoured? The ends justifying the means I suppose?
Groucho wrote:
Sat 21 Nov 2020 8:44 pm

That's a rather small difference out of 373,000 DeKalb County residents and the additional numbers may be for Biden...
There does seem to be a lot of small differences. It would be interesting to see how many one one way or the other. There was the one which 10,000 were overcounted for Biden. Let's remember all it would take to win Georgia is to switch 6000 odd votes from one candidate to another.

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EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Sun 22 Nov 2020 12:46 pm
Groucho wrote:
Sat 21 Nov 2020 8:44 pm

As for anyone getting fired, Trump expects nothing less than that each person who does not ratify his 'win' should be put to the sword... being sacked by Trump is surely a badge of honour that the recipients can wear with pride knowing they at least have some vestige of honour left... although not this person.
Or if someone is negligent doing an important job then they need to be removed from it. So if someone is negligent but it gets the orange man out then they should be honoured? The ends justifying the means I suppose?
Groucho wrote:
Sat 21 Nov 2020 8:44 pm

That's a rather small difference out of 373,000 DeKalb County residents and the additional numbers may be for Biden...
There does seem to be a lot of small differences. It would be interesting to see how many one one way or the other. There was the one which 10,000 were overcounted for Biden. Let's remember all it would take to win Georgia is to switch 6000 odd votes from one candidate to another.
Again you neglect what I've said... 'not this person'.... this person has been sacked for negligence and that's fine by me. I was not defending them.

You seem to be assuming any 'missing' votes must all be for Republicans... I haven't seen a report that it's so.

The point I was making re firing in general in the current presidency is Trump has a track record of sacking people as an act of revenge when they do not agree with him... do you think that's the act of a leader? Or is it the act of a despot who will brook no argument or stand for correction?

It seems the security community find their ability to guarantee state security somewhat diminished by Trump's staff turnover rate.

Massive counts in the US have always had small discrepancies, that's why states legislate mandatory audits including recounts and examination of the chain of custody for the counts from ballot papers to data input when margins are within a certain threshold... this is to make sure no black-holes swallow-up blocks of votes. I've yet to see a declaration overturned.

It's tilting at windmills...

Now we wait for the Proud Boys (who sound like the KKK after a do-over) to kick-off egged on by baseless claims of it being a 'stolen' election

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Groucho wrote:
Sun 22 Nov 2020 2:12 pm

The point I was making re firing in general in the current presidency is Trump has a track record of sacking people as an act of revenge when they do not agree with him... do you think that's the act of a leader? Or is it the act of a despot who will brook no argument or stand for correction?
All leaders sack people who don't agree with them or make what they think are mistakes.
We call them cabinet re-shuffles in England and both sides generally have a fair few of them.

I would agree that Trump is egotistical and thin skinned etc etc so might broach less disagreement than most but to label him a despot is the usual hyperbole. You should realise the danger of over using words such as fascist, far right, dictatorship, despot etc etc is you end up diminishing them?
Groucho wrote:
Sun 22 Nov 2020 2:12 pm

Massive counts in the US have always had small discrepancies, that's why states legislate mandatory audits including recounts and examination of the chain of custody for the counts from ballot papers to data input when margins are within a certain threshold... this is to make sure no black-holes swallow-up blocks of votes. I've yet to see a declaration overturned.

It's tilting at windmills...
After them having a recount, I don't think you could call it much of an audit tbh, Biden's winning margin went down from 14,172 to 12,284 so that's 2,000 votes out of a tiny majority on a first look.
Groucho wrote:
Sun 22 Nov 2020 2:12 pm

Now we wait for the Proud Boys (who sound like the KKK after a do-over) to kick-off egged on by baseless claims of it being a 'stolen' election
So they've put the boards back up because they are worried about mob violence?
Don't think so.

As for the Proud Boys I, like you if you are honest, don't know much about them. The fact they are labelled far right doesn't really register to much with me as I've known the woke community label the Boy Scouts as far right. Some label anything to the right of Stalin far right.

They might be like the KKK but to my knowledge the KKK never had a black leader which I understand The Proud Boys have.

Anyone who say's there is more threat of mob rule and violence from The Proud Boys than ANTIFA is either blind or being disingenuous.
Last edited by EnjoyingTheSun on Mon 23 Nov 2020 2:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by EnjoyingTheSun »

Groucho wrote:
Sun 22 Nov 2020 2:12 pm

Now we wait for the Proud Boys (who sound like the KKK after a do-over)
Ok this is The Proud Boys leader Enrique Tarrio
Enrique Tarrio.jpg
Enrique Tarrio.jpg (8.3 KiB) Viewed 538 times
As I said I don't know too much about the group but he is unlike any white supremist I've ever seen.

I guess he might be to the right of Shaun King the 'black' activist who has two white parents and had to come up with a story that his Mum committed adultery with a black man to continue to identify as black as people were laughing their bottoms off and calling him Talcum X.

It is an almost Alice in Wonderland feel to the world at the moment.
We have black white supremists, white black activists, men who don't know whether to be a man, woman or kitchen sideboard.

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Ah well the end is nigh... Let's see if you Republicans have a vestige of honour and can apologise for landing the US and the rest of the world with quite the most unsuitable President it's had in my lifetime... And that's saying something given that we've had some right chumps in the period since WWII.

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Groucho wrote:
Mon 23 Nov 2020 4:22 am
Ah well the end is nigh... Let's see if you Republicans have a vestige of honour and can apologise for landing the US and the rest of the world with quite the most unsuitable President it's had in my lifetime... And that's saying something given that we've had some right chumps in the period since WWII.
Not a Republican, if I could have voted I would have voted for Clinton and Obama. Not even a Trump supporter tbh but a supporter of democracy and a hater of hypocrisy. Plus he was pro British which is what I care about.
Trump did ok, wasn't the best but wasn't the worst either. Could have been Hillary so a lot worse.
With Biden you are going to need to Hubble telescope to see any activity. Obviously he will get great press and you should get a bet on for the Nobel Peace Prize as he must be favourite for achieving.......... Obviously if that strange girl isn't running.

Nothing more on The Proud Boys being the new KKK? Kind of undermines it a bit them having a black leader I guess? Maybe you should do some research before you swallow droplets of propaganda from The Guardian. I know virtually zero about them but know who their leader is.

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EnjoyingTheSun wrote:
Mon 23 Nov 2020 11:08 am
Groucho wrote:
Mon 23 Nov 2020 4:22 am
Ah well the end is nigh... Let's see if you Republicans have a vestige of honour and can apologise for landing the US and the rest of the world with quite the most unsuitable President it's had in my lifetime... And that's saying something given that we've had some right chumps in the period since WWII.
Not a Republican, if I could have voted I would have voted for Clinton and Obama. Not even a Trump supporter tbh but a supporter of democracy and a hater of hypocrisy. Plus he was pro British which is what I care about.
Trump did ok, wasn't the best but wasn't the worst either. Could have been Hillary so a lot worse.
With Biden you are going to need to Hubble telescope to see any activity. Obviously he will get great press and you should get a bet on for the Nobel Peace Prize as he must be favourite for achieving.......... Obviously if that strange girl isn't running.

Nothing more on The Proud Boys being the new KKK? Kind of undermines it a bit them having a black leader I guess? Maybe you should do some research before you swallow droplets of propaganda from The Guardian. I know virtually zero about them but know who their leader is.
I did say 'like' and 'after a makeover'.... you only appear to be able to read between the lines very selectively... I wonder why?

The Proud Boys' politics, xenophobia and distrust of others is to me at least symptomatic of the mindset of groups like the KKK, pig ignorance based prejudice and hatred. What's really worrying is Trump's inability to distinguish between pro-US groups with a fair degree of enlightened self-interest and ones like the Proud Boys who purport to embody US values but have no real grasp of how, what is in essence a fairly historically recently formed nation, the US came to be the powerful melting-pot and vibrant country it is... or if they do, disregard it. To me they are the US equivalent of our homegrown BNP.

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Re: yes yes yes!!!!

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Groucho wrote:
Sun 22 Nov 2020 2:12 pm


Now we wait for the Proud Boys (who sound like the KKK after a do-over)


How selective do you have to be with this quote?
Groucho wrote:
Mon 23 Nov 2020 12:55 pm

The Proud Boys' politics, xenophobia and distrust of others is to me at least symptomatic of the mindset of groups like the KKK, pig ignorance based prejudice and hatred. What's really worrying is Trump's inability to distinguish between pro-US groups with a fair degree of enlightened self-interest and ones like the Proud Boys who purport to embody US values but have no real grasp of how, what is in essence a fairly historically recently formed nation, the US came to be the powerful melting-pot and vibrant country it is... or if they do, disregard it. To me they are the US equivalent of our homegrown BNP.
As I say I don't know too much about them and tbh if I wanted to check them out I probably wouldn't use the sources you do. EG the everything that isn't Corbynist is fascist brigade.

So you overshot with the KKK and are now likening them to the BNP?
OK we'll start again please inform me when the BNP had a BAME leader?

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Re: yes yes yes!!!!

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for everybody who followed 2020 pre election times it is absolutely impossible not to have heard about the "proud boys" (Trump: stand back, stand by).
here some info
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proud_Boys
and the "sympathetic" (black???) leader
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enrique_Tarrio
Last edited by kibsolar1999 on Mon 23 Nov 2020 6:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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