Labour for SOFT, Consevative for HARD BREXIT

[turtle]

One thing is for certain though...the tories will lose the next election if they give anymore family silver away the British public will boot em out and when corbyn gets in you can wave goodby to any booming Britain ...be careful what you wish for Waz

[waz-24-7]

No way a Corbin fan. Tony Blair....possibly. Mrs May....unsure,
Certainly she is in-between a rock and a hard place and very tough for her right now as all the major parties are divided on you know what.

My political views are somewhat mixed depending on their proposals or lack thereof to come up with a good BEST FOR BRITAIN deal.
I believe the hard stance being shown by the EU has shaken many into disarray and the issues such as the Irish border are just daunting to them all.
I just cannot see how this is going to pan out.
Of course the apparent freedom to go out and seek trade deals during the interim is good. However, I hardly believe the UK DTI have been sitting on their laurels. since the vote result. They remain grossly underfunded given the massive task ahead.
In addition given the characteristic lengthy and costly processes involved in trade deal negotiations I see little prospect of many deals within the next few years. It simply is not that quick and easy and the competition from others already in the market place puts the UK in a back foot situation.

[PoshinDevon]

The U.K. is moving forward. The deal for the transition period has been agreed. Plenty more work to be done but we slowly move towards a final agreement and the leaving of the EU which is what the majority of those who voted want.

I am very comfortable that the U.K. will now start to agree trade deals with many countries outside of the EU. Some positive news for sure.

[waz-24-7]

The U.K. is moving forward. The deal for the transition period has been agreed. Plenty more work to be done but we slowly move towards a final agreement and the leaving of the EU which is what the majority of those who voted want.

I am very comfortable that the U.K. will now start to agree trade deals with many countries outside of the EU. Some positive news for sure.

Posh,
Some negotiation on trade deals goes without saying. The "agreed" trade deals you refer to are sometime off I think and most certainly not agreed as yet.
The news that the UK will seek trade deals is not good news. It is critically essential news !!

[PoshinDevon]

We will agree trade deals for sure. How quickly that will happen neither you nor I know.

The important decision to allow the U.K. to proceed down this route prior to final exit from the EU is a positive move.

[waz-24-7]

We will agree trade deals for sure. How quickly that will happen neither you nor I know.

The important decision to allow the U.K. to proceed down this route prior to final exit from the EU is a positive move.

Hmmm
Historically trade deals take between 5-8 yrs to negotiate. EACH and every one !! The deal details usually go into many volumes of detail. It is simply not your typical shopping trip to Asda or a simple sales contract you may have done when you purchased a villa.
Whilst in essence the news for UK business is more encouraging. For BREXIT supporters there is no real delivery of any promises. Certainly the fishing industry is severely disappointed. Anyone seeking immigration control should be similarly disappointed. Mr Farage, the king of promise has expressed his disappointment.

The decision to "allow", presumably a permission granted by the EU to proceed to BREXIT is hardly a positive move.
Its what you voted for!! Thank you EU for your gracious permission to proceed.

[PoshinDevon]

How long a decision takes to negotiate really depends on the will of the two sides in making the decision. In my experience if there is a deal to be done and both sides want a deal, things tend to move a lot more quickly. We will see what is announced in the coming months and years.

The important thing is that the U.K. is free to move forward on investigating, discussing and agreeing future deals which can only be of benefit.

With regards to other items agreed for the transition period; as I expected, there are some things I am happy with and others less so. However; I am not privy to the detail so will look to understand more in the next few weeks and months.

I don’t really understand how anyone in either camp would want to try and suggest this isn’t a positive move especially after such a long time when we all likely thought things were stagnating.

[divesups]

James Dyson declares Brexit will be a disaster for EUROPE as he predicts UK will WALK AWAY

SIR JAMES Dyson believes Britain will leave the European Union without a deal in what will be a “disaster for Europe”.

By WILL KIRBY
PUBLISHED: 00:00, Sat, Nov 18, 2017 | UPDATED: 11:25, Sat, Nov 18, 2017





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The business magnate has made no secret of his pro-Brexit views and he does not believe Britain should be fazed about the prospect of walking away from the negotiating table without a deal.

Asked about David Davis’ chances of securing a deal ahead of next month’s EU summit, Sir James told the Telegraph: “I don’t think they’ll do a deal.

“You can’t negotiate with that lot, as I’ve found out from 24 years of sitting on European committees with Dyson.

“No non-German company has ever won anything, and nobody has ever been able to block any suggestion from the German cartel. Never. They stifle innovation, the EU. And the European Court of Justice, well, that’s frankly crooked.”

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Sir James Dyson claims 'time has come' for UK to walk away from EU
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james dyson brexitGETTY•PA
James Dyson believes Brexit will prove to be a disaster for Europe
The founder of the Dyson company has acquired a huge amount of prime agricultural land and is now the owner of the largest farming business in the country and a greater private landowner than the Queen.

Sir James is now the biggest recipient of EU subsidies in the country but doesn’t believe Brexit will be a disaster for the UK.

He continued: “It’s an unusual time to get into farming, I will admit that, but we started purchasing land long before Brexit was a possibility.

“I do not see leaving the European Union as a disaster at all. It’s a very minor blip if you’re exporting to Europe; that’s it.

PA
Sir James Dyson owns a staggering 33,000 acres of farmland and woodland
You can’t negotiate with that lot, as I’ve found out from 24 years of sitting on European committees with Dyson
Sir James Dyson
“It’s actually a disaster for Europe, because it’ll cost them a lot more to export to us.”

Last weekend, the 70-year-old inventor told the BBC’s Andrew Marr that despite the Brexit talks deadlock, Britain remains in a very strong position.

He said: “I don’t think it is the Government’s fault, I think the problem is the people we are negotiating with.

“I think they are demanding billions and billions to leave is quite outrageous. And demanding it before we have negotiated anything is outrageous.

“I would walk away, I think that is the only way to deal with them.

GETTY
David Davis and Michel Barnier have failed to agree on some of the major Brexit sticking points
“I have been dealing with the EU and the EU countries for the last 25 years, on IEC standards and energy labels and all that kind of thing, there’s no way to deal with them, you have to walk away.

“If you walk away they’ll come to us because they want to export all their products to us. They will come back to us.

“We are in a very very strong position, incredibly strong position. We shouldn’t give them any money, we should just walk away and they will come to us.”

After the sixth round of Brexit talks concluded last week with Michel Barnier, the EU’s chief negotiator, suggesting talks could drag on into the next year if the bloc's demands were not met.

GETTY
Sir James Dyson shows David Cameron around his factory in Malmesbury
The Frenchman gave the UK a two-week deadline to offer clarification on the financial settlement to get talks moving by December.

He said: “Only sufficient progress - that is to say sincere and real progress - on the three main key issues of these negotiations will enable the triggering of the second phase of our negotiation.”

David Davis said it was time for the European Union and the United Kingdom to both show some “flexibility, imagination and willingness” to deal with the deadlock in talks.

The European Union has reiterated it will not begin trade talks with Britain unless “sufficient progress” has been made in its key three issues of the Irish border, citizens rights and the divorce settlement.

[turtle]

Another "serious" business man that has been ignored as well...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... usinesses/

I think Mr Dyson & Mr Bamford should get an account on here and let them have a listen to our very own Grim reaper.

[waz-24-7]

How long a decision takes to negotiate really depends on the will of the two sides in making the decision. In my experience if there is a deal to be done and both sides want a deal, things tend to move a lot more quickly. We will see what is announced in the coming months and years.

The important thing is that the U.K. is free to move forward on investigating, discussing and agreeing future deals which can only be of benefit.

With regards to other items agreed for the transition period; as I expected, there are some things I am happy with and others less so. However; I am not privy to the detail so will look to understand more in the next few weeks and months.

I don’t really understand how anyone in either camp would want to try and suggest this isn’t a positive move especially after such a long time when we all likely thought things were stagnating.

Posh,
Your wait and see and live in hope is somewhat typical of persons not so effected ( retired or even semi retired) by the clear negative risks. The transition is essentially a short term reprieve. Working wage earners, exporting businesses that have European trading partners, Importers of European products and services. Industrial sectors that are anxious upon post 2019 deal. Young people who want to freely travel and access the European union and share rights and privileges that you have enjoyed past decades. These are the real effected people.

Upon deals. Assuming you refer to the said trade deals. Yes willing and able will present opportunity. The devil however is in the detail. Please don't think the deals will be done in weeks. Current trade deals with the EU have taken many many years work and have allowed a UK prosperity that will be very hard to duplicate. Willing or not. If the UK comes out of customs union, single market we in effect have ZERO trade deals. Our shop front is full but our doors are locked until such time we get deals done. This interim period secured could lead to rushed and desperate trade deals and the UK will loose massively to competitors from Europe and the world who already have deals in place. The UK will effectively be starting again and please do not underestimate the threat from trade competition.

Positive. Yes I think the transition is a temporary reprieve. However there are many very unhappy BREXIT supporters that are more than displeased with this climb down by the Uk government.

[waz-24-7]

Another "serious" business man that has been ignored as well...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... usinesses/

I think Mr Dyson & Mr Bamford should get an account on here and let them have a listen to our very own Grim reaper.

Turtle,
Mr Bamford who incidentally inherited his fortune is in a strong position and well able to succeed after 2019.
I am fortunate enough to be a supplier to JCB and I am familiar with their global market strength.
The products we provide to JCB are bespoke and unique and we trade on the back of JCB worldwide network and access.
We cannot do it without the JCB infrastructure.
Their global subsidiaries and trading partners across all the continents have allowed the company to trade across the globe almost regardless of trade deals They circumnavigate obstacles by virtue of their longstanding presence in these market places.
The vast majority UK businesses do NOT have this network. If UK business generally was like the JCB model then we are home and dry. I'm afraid its very much not.

[PoshinDevon]

Waz- Clearly you don’t read posts properly, but that is of course an ongoing trait. I commented earlier about my young people, how they voted and their reaction and current thoughts re Brexit. I won’t repeat it again but basically you are more concerned than they are.
Trade deals - instead of pronouncing that we are doomed, lets just see what happens over this transition period. Neither you nor I know with certainty what will happen or what will be agreed.

My business contacts in the USA, mid and Far East have often said they admired the decision of the U.K. and are looking forward to being able to deal direct rather than via some monolith of rules and regulations as imposed by the EU.

I will drop out of wrestling with a crocodile and your attempt to convince us all that the U.K. is doomed. You are thrashing around and go from one gloomy comment to another, fully convinced that you and only you have the crystal ball and can see into and predict the future. I also fail to understand why you try to confuse the discussion by repeatedly bringing up past wars between European countries - what that adds to the discussion really is baffling.

Your views are exactly that; your views, and count for nothing.

[turtle]

Waz again your knowledge lets you down... sir Anthony Bamford did inherit the company but the bulk of his billion pounds fortune has been made after his farther died who incidently left £200m to his mistress.
The fact that he has driven his business to every corner of the world is testimony of what can be achieved when you put your mind to it...I too do business with JCB and know a little about how this local business works.

[turtle]

Waz... I don't think you ever answered the question about will the European countries want to supply the UK with the huge amount of products it currently does and will it be prepared to pay the tarrifs similar to the ones they intend to hit us with ?

[waz-24-7]

Waz- Clearly you don’t read posts properly, but that is of course an ongoing trait. I commented earlier about my young people, how they voted and their reaction and current thoughts re Brexit. I won’t repeat it again but basically you are more concerned than they are.
Trade deals - instead of pronouncing that we are doomed, lets just see what happens over this transition period. Neither you nor I know with certainty what will happen or what will be agreed.

My business contacts in the USA, mid and Far East have often said they admired the decision of the U.K. and are looking forward to being able to deal direct rather than via some monolith of rules and regulations as imposed by the EU.

I will drop out of wrestling with the crocodile and let you continue to attempt to convince us all that we are doomed.

Posh,
Never have I once said that the UK is doomed. Quite the contrary I have often stated that the UK will survive. prosperity is the bench mark and this is in question for sometime yet.
I cannot speak for your young and most certainly they will not represent their entire peer group. I know that in general the majority of youngsters feel rather sold down the river by the older non working wrinklies.

Good news for your own business contacts. Given they have no idea, like you and I, what sort of trade deal they will, post 2019, be subject to they must be, like you, living in hope and wandering in the dark.
If I could put hope and wish into the bank then certainly the account would be healthy indeed.

[waz-24-7]

Waz again your knowledge lets you down... sir Anthony Bamford did inherit the company but the bulk of his billion pounds fortune has been made after his farther died who incidently left £200m to his mistress.
The fact that he has driven his business to every corner of the world is testimony of what can be achieved when you put your mind to it...I too do business with JCB and know a little about how this local business works.

Turtle I full accept your comment upon the historical inheritance within JCB. This is indeed known to me and does not relate to my point within the debate.
My point is that the JCB empire has been built over generations since the 1940s. A marvelous company that is stronger than most to overcome BREXIT trade barriers and risks.
My point is that the global nature of this successful UK business is unlike the vast majority . Most run the very real risk of trade hindrance from the EU and without the customs union and single market will overnight become less competitive against European competitors.

Pleased to hear that you too trade with JCB...a global business. Certainly my products (JCB specific) could not be distributed worldwide without the JCB network.

[waz-24-7]

Waz... I don't think you ever answered the question about will the European countries want to supply the UK with the huge amount of products it currently does and will it be prepared to pay the tarrifs similar to the ones they intend to hit us with ?

OK
Certainly German car makers for example, will want to continue selling cars into the UK. UK consumers will also still desire to buy German engineered cars. However, consumers will of course make choices and those choices are driven in part by cost. If say BMW cars have a 20% duty then will consumers make different choices....probably.
Now given the fact that the UK has no real home owned car brands. Car production would very quickly move from the UK and back into Europe to avoid the said duty payments.
The result of this. Car prices in the UK will go up significantly and the UK will have no car industry.

Furthermore. Your apparent stance that the EU are the enemy and we will harm them as they harm us is simply not productive and the only outcome will be damage to all parties. Indeed in this potential war the UK is far less able or economically strong enough to win, prosper or be successful.
The new world order is fast overtaking the UK. The increased vulnerability brought about by BREXIT uncertainty, lack of plan or strategy is very concerning to me.

[turtle]

You are absolutely right that they are the enemy...if they were anything else don't you think they would at least atempt to make the split a bit smother and at least protect the Uk market for their businesses over there from what i can see they are quite prepared to jepadise this by playing hard ball and being very demanding.....hard headed negotiaters and not businessmen in my eyes

[waz-24-7]

You are absolutely right that they are the enemy...if they were anything else don't you think they would at least atempt to make the split a bit smother and at least protect the Uk market for their businesses over there from what i can see they are quite prepared to jepadise this by playing hard ball and being very demanding.....hard headed negotiaters and not businessmen in my eyes

Turtle
NO NO NO not the enemy. So may lives have been lost since 1914 because of just what you are peddling.
Peace in Europe is worth fighting for but around the table.
The UK in its error made the decision not the EU. The UK applied for divorce. The war mongering comes with that decision.
The very division within Europe that cost so many lives is not what I or the younger generation want or deserve,

The EU are far better placed to do economic battle with the war mongering UK populous (52%).
The EU has trade deals in place. Their businesses are now ready and out there to pick of the weakened UK position.
Financial services is just one sector under attack already as Frankfurt and Paris set their stall. Europe is already open for business .Unrestricted business!

Hard headed negotiators...most certainly. The political and business world is brutal and the UK negotiators will be exactly the same.
My view is that the EU now has the upper hand and the position of strength. Many will be shocked at the position. The vast majority of Brexit voters paid no heed to the complexity of the divorce. I firmly believe most unwittingly thought its was a walk and wave goodbye party and then we would have loads of money and the EU would run off and hide. How wrong that notion is.
The interim deal is very poor on reflection. It offers no certainty and many clearly feel very let down. Whilst investors have responded positively. My view it is the short game investors are carpet bagging before the 2019 crunch time. I see an exodus of investment just as soon as 2020 arrives.

[turtle]

You are absolutely right that they are the enemy...if they were anything else don't you think they would at least atempt to make the split a bit smother and at least protect the Uk market for their businesses over there from what i can see they are quite prepared to jepadise this by playing hard ball and being very demanding.....hard headed negotiaters and not businessmen in my eyes

Turtle
NO NO NO not the enemy. So may lives have been lost since 1914 because of just what you are peddling.
Peace in Europe is worth fighting for but around the table.
The UK in its error made the decision not the EU. The UK applied for divorce. The war mongering comes with that decision.
The very division within Europe that cost so many lives is not what I or the younger generation want or deserve,

The EU are far better placed to do economic battle with the war mongering UK populous (52%).
The EU has trade deals in place. Their businesses are now ready and out there to pick of the weakened UK position.
Financial services is just one sector under attack already as Frankfurt and Paris set their stall. Europe is already open for business .Unrestricted
business!


Hard headed negotiators...most certainly. The political and business world is brutal and the UK negotiators will be exactly the same.
My view is that the EU now has the upper hand and the position of strength. Many will be shocked at the position. The vast majority of Brexit voters paid no heed to the complexity of the divorce. I firmly believe most unwittingly thought its was a walk and wave goodbye party and then we would have loads of money and the EU would run off and hide. How wrong that notion is.
The interim deal is very poor on reflection. It offers no certainty and many clearly feel very let down. Whilst investors have responded positively. My view it is the short game investors are carpet bagging before the 2019 crunch time. I see an exodus of investment just as soon as 2020 arrives.

Give your head a wobble man,.. nobody is talking about war or war mongering only you ?....when I said enemy I meant over the negotiating table they will not give an inch and before you cry why should they well they should as in any other amicable divorce and if the divorce causes a war as you seem to think then shame on you for even suggesting it,.. one thing you need to let sink in it won't be the UK that creates a war situation it will be people with the idiotic frame of mind like your own. now pack it in.
Your total lack of respect for people with a different view to your own is a disgrace and you are beginning to sound like a spoilt child when he can't get his own way.

[waz-24-7]

Turtle,
My view has simply been expressed.
I am afraid that human society, including religion, the pursuit of wealth and power and capitalism is the driving force that often leads to conflict and indeed war.
Just look across the planet and view the level of conflict. It is omnipresent.
Fortunately in Europe we have enjoyed peace for nearly 60 years. Why? In the main because of the Union.
Look at what happened in 1914 and again in 1935. Will come around again?
As a Union...very unlikely. As a divided Europe....possibly.
The level of risk is there in my view. Incidentally I incorporate Russia in the European scope Russia. Look at Crimea and Ukraine the solitary countries outside the Union.

[geroff]

Waz some of us have read every post and unfortunatly yours now come across as vindictive towards GB and any one that doesnt agree with your bias views on the currupt EU!

Give it a rest, as turtle has come out way in front with his views by being a business man like so many who voted leave ...

[turtle]

No Wars eh,.. so you nonchalantly dismiss the Serbia- Bosnian war which included Slovenia Croatia & Kosovo and are you silly enough to believe the 1st & 2nd world wars would not have happened if there was an EU.... Priceless.

[erol]

your bias views on the currupt EU!

Oh the irony.

[waz-24-7]

No Wars eh,.. so you nonchalantly dismiss the Serbia- Bosnian war which included Slovenia Croatia & Kosovo and are you silly enough to believe the 1st & 2nd world wars would not have happened if there was an EU.... Priceless.

The ethnic unrest and "war" you refer to was outside of the European Union in the 1990s. Croatia is now an EU state (2013 I think) and consequently is at peace.

Similarly as you are aware there was no union present in Europe in 1939. The expansionist aspirations of many states and countries in Europe led to the 2nd great war that century. I firmly believe that the current Union within Europe provides security and Peace in our time and ongoing.
Indeed the same expansionist power hungry scenarios have been seen back to the days of the Spanish Armada or even the Vikings. Priceless indeed.

Turtle. It is not just about the politics of the EU that you clearly believe is a failure. It goes a lot deeper and the safe and secure welfare of ALL Europeans is a very important consideration.

[turtle]

No Wars eh,.. so you nonchalantly dismiss the Serbia- Bosnian war which included Slovenia Croatia & Kosovo and are you silly enough to believe the 1st & 2nd world wars would not have happened if there was an EU.... Priceless.

The ethnic unrest and "war" you refer to was outside of the European Union in the 1990s. Croatia is now an EU state (2013 I think) and consequently is at peace.

Similarly as you are aware there was no union present in Europe in 1939. The expansionist aspirations of many states and countries in Europe led to the 2nd great war that century. I firmly believe that the current Union within Europe provides security and Peace in our time and ongoing.
Indeed the same expansionist power hungry scenarios have been seen back to the days of the Spanish Armada or even the Vikings. Priceless indeed.

Turtle. It is not just about the politics of the EU that you clearly believe is a failure. It goes a lot deeper and the safe and secure welfare of ALL Europeans is a very important consideration.

I can't believe what i have just read..... Jean claude Drunker has just congratulated warmonger putin on his recent election fix er sorry win what a disgrace this odious object is to the european union....just glad we won't be part of it soon.

[waz-24-7]

No Wars eh,.. so you nonchalantly dismiss the Serbia- Bosnian war which included Slovenia Croatia & Kosovo and are you silly enough to believe the 1st & 2nd world wars would not have happened if there was an EU.... Priceless.

The ethnic unrest and "war" you refer to was outside of the European Union in the 1990s. Croatia is now an EU state (2013 I think) and consequently is at peace.

Similarly as you are aware there was no union present in Europe in 1939. The expansionist aspirations of many states and countries in Europe led to the 2nd great war that century. I firmly believe that the current Union within Europe provides security and Peace in our time and ongoing.
Indeed the same expansionist power hungry scenarios have been seen back to the days of the Spanish Armada or even the Vikings. Priceless indeed.

Turtle. It is not just about the politics of the EU that you clearly believe is a failure. It goes a lot deeper and the safe and secure welfare of ALL Europeans is a very important consideration.

I can't believe what i have just read..... Jean claude Drunker has just congratulated warmonger putin on his recent election fix er sorry win what a disgrace this odious object is to the european union....just glad we won't be part of it soon.

Hmmm
Europe is not a single man his views and opinions should not be taken as those of the 500 million Europeans. Mr Putin is in my view a threat to Europe.
Fortunately the Union is rather large and powerful for even him to take on. Crimea and Ukraine as stand alone and less strong have fallen to the dictator.

What pray do you not specifically believe or understand in the above quoted post.

[turtle]

You are right waz the EU is not one man...but this object is the one man that speaks on behalf of the Eu....disgracful and you can't bring yourself to criticize him.....not surprised at all.

[turtle]

https://news.sky.com/story/eu-boss-jean ... n-11298042

[waz-24-7]

Turtle, To be clear I do not support Jean-Claude Junker as leader of the EU just as I do not support many political leaders.
Furthermore I do not condone his support of Mr Putin.

I do support the notion and philosophy of a European Union providing security and prosperity for Europeans.
I accept that that notion can never be perfect but I believe it offers far better prospects than a divided and insular Europe that it has been in previous history.

[kerry 6138]

Waz "- The expansionist aspirations of many states and countries in Europe led to the 2nd great war that century. I firmly believe that the current Union within Europe provides security and Peace in our time and ongoing.
Indeed the same expansionist power hungry scenarios have been seen back to the days of the Spanish Armada or even the Vikings. Priceless indeed."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine ... _Agreement
The agreement commits Ukraine to economic, judicial, and financial reforms to converge its policies and legislation to those of the European Union. Ukraine commits to gradually conform to EU technical and consumer standards.[6] The EU agrees to provide Ukraine with political and financial support, access to research and knowledge, and preferential access to EU market

Does this not count has a expansionists policy?

The political provisions of the treaty were signed on 21 March 2014 after a series of events that had stalled its ratification culminated in a revolution in Ukraine and overthrow of the then incumbent President of Ukraine, Viktor Yanukovych.[11] This ousting was sparked by Yanukovych's last-minute[12] refusal to sign the agreement. Russia, Ukraine's second largest trading partner, instead presented an association with the existing Customs Union of Russia, Belarus, and Kazakhstan as an alternative.[13][14] After 21 March 2014 matters relating to trade integration were temporarily set aside (awaiting the results of the 25 May 2014 Ukrainian presidential elections) until the European Union and the new Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko signed the economic part of the Ukraine–European Union Association Agreement on 27 June 2014,[2] and described this as Ukraine's "first but most decisive step" towards EU membership.

And the subsequent partioning and annexation of the Crimea is this War enough for you?

[kerry 6138]

Waz- "I do support the notion and philosophy of a European Union providing security and prosperity for Europeans"

Spoken like a Northern European business owner with blinkers on, say that to a Greek.

Greek GDP's worst decline, −6.9%, came in 2011,[163] a year in which seasonally adjusted industrial output ended 28.4% lower than in 2005.[164][165] During that year, 111,000 Greek companies went bankrupt (27% higher than in 2010).[166][167] As a result, the seasonally adjusted unemployment rate grew from 7.5% in September 2008 to a then record high of 23.1% in May 2012, while the youth unemployment rate time rose from 22.0% to 54.9%.[

The social effects of the austerity measures on the Greek population were severe.[187] In February 2012, it was reported that 20,000 Greeks had been made homeless during the preceding year, and that 20 per cent of shops in the historic city centre of Athens were empty

Waz -I do not support Jean-Claude Junker as leader of the EU

How would you use your vote to influence the EU's choice of leader?

[waz-24-7]

Kerry.
Ok
Firstly the Ukraine.
Ukraine has for a long time been in turmoil regarding allegiance to either Russian federation OR European Union. Almost like the Uk division upon BREXIT. Russia capitalised on the allegiance and has intervened to the extent it is now almost in Control.
The expansionist policy that Russia currently has, Germany had in 1935, Spain had in the 18th Century etc are policies that involve aggressive intervention. The European Union certainly does not have an aggressive policy for expansion,

Upon Greece,
Research will show you that the Greek administration has been historically (at least for past decade) rife with corruption, tax avoidance, poor controls,
poor tax collection policies. The result. The economic mess they arrived at. Now many Europeans including myself have been rather angered at the bail outs given to Greece.
However the Greeks were obliged to meet strict and cutting reforms to secure monies. Now we are some time ahead. I believe Greece has emerged as a reformed economy with better administration, distribution of wealth and will only become stronger. This cannot be linked directly to their membership of the Union. However I think most Greeks are now quite thankful for the support provided and for the reforms that have taken within their country.
Furthermore. The European Union has been responsible for thousand of regeneration schemes in crumbling and disadvantaged societies across the Union.
In the UK we see the Welsh valleys, the North East, Liverpool as regions that have had regeneration assistance. In TRNC the pavement works has been supported by EU money.

Regarding leadership of the EU. No single person, like most democracies, has overriding decision authority. Each member state has alternating presidency. Each member state has members of parliament within the democratic system. Now the above is certainly NOT perfect and reform is required. I have always said that and remain of that opinion. The UK is now leaving this and will no longer have a say even though we will be obliged to adhere to many articles of legislation. I have NO will to select a leader right now. Why would I ? Tony Blair possibly?

[erol]

Now many Europeans including myself have been rather angered at the bail outs given to Greece.

The 'bailouts' were not given to Greece. They were a mass transfer of liabilities incurred by imprudent lending from primarily French and German banks from those banks to EU citizens within the Euro zone. These banks gorged themselves on profits both from trading 'sub prime' CDO's and from lending to Greece and when it all went tits up the losses were moved from the very banks that were prime culprits in causing the the sub prime crash in the first place to the citizenry of the Euro zone.

The EU response to the Greek financial crisis was in my humble opinion one of the most shameful episodes in the history of the EU to date. You really should read Yanis Varoufakis' book "Adults In The Room: My Battle With Europe’s Deep Establishment".

Yet despite this and just like Yanis Varoufakis himself I still believe the UK should have chosen to remain within the EU (and please I do accept that by referendum it chose otherwise).

[waz-24-7]

Erol
Little bit off topic but hey.
The financial crash of 2007/2008 was indeed the mass transfer of liabilities. The mass selling and trading of debt within the USA. Particularly of sub prime lending's for property soon crossed the globe. Borrowings soured and many borrowed without resource to pay back. Finally the default rate upon loans escalated out of control and started the collapse of banks , institutions and indeed whole countries (almost). Certainly the fiscal policies or lack thereof within Greece allowed many to escape from any sort of tax or support for essential services and public sector welfare.

[turtle]

Now many Europeans including myself have been rather angered at the bail outs given to Greece.

The 'bailouts' were not given to Greece. They were a mass transfer of liabilities incurred by imprudent lending from primarily French and German banks from those banks to EU citizens within the Euro zone. These banks gorged themselves on profits both from trading 'sub prime' CDO's and from lending to Greece and when it all went tits up the losses were moved from the very banks that were prime culprits in causing the the sub prime crash in the first place to the citizenry of the Euro zone.

The EU response to the Greek financial crisis was in my humble opinion one of the most shameful episodes in the history of the EU to date. You really should read Yanis Varoufakis' book "Adults In The Room: My Battle With Europe’s Deep Establishment".

Yet despite this and just like Yanis Varoufakis himself I still believe the UK should have chosen to remain within the EU (and please I do accept that by referendum it chose otherwise).

Erol i am half way through yanis varoufakis's book and a facinating read' i would suggest interested parties in the Eu/ Brexit debate should give it a go as it is an eye opening account of finance surrounding the greece situation...I was of the opinion that greece only had itself to blame but not totally...you are absolutely right that this was a shameful act of the Eu which is largely unknown among many people.
However some people are of the mind set that the EU can not be critisized ?
Unlike you I think Yannis is a little misguided in his ongoing support for this very corrupt organisation.

[erol]

The financial crash of 2007/2008 was indeed the mass transfer of liabilities.

Transfer from the private banks, who were prime culprits in creating the situation and made billions in profits from it, until it crashed, to the public who were not and did not. The EU's response to Greece's situation circa 2011 was just the 'last part' of that process of 'nationalising' private banks losses. Of all the hundreds and billions 'given' (actually lent) to Greece in 'bailouts' over 95% of it was immediately then given to the French and German banks that had so recklessly (and profitably) been extending loans to Greece.

[waz-24-7]

Erol,
Yes I agree with your opinion upon the banks yet again manipulating position for self gain.
My point upon the transfer of liabilities, in particular the trading of debt that started in the USA by primarily banks merely supports the notion that banks generally are always in it for the money, are way too powerful and often above the law. Their ability to influence, set policy and generally get away with it is astounding.
The said German and French banks were simply on the band wagon of trading debt. Good or bad debt was of no matter fact or fiction the lure of profit was so great. The hope was that you were not left as the top stone on the pyramid that would take the fall when the inevitable default arrived.

[erol]

However some people are of the mind set that the EU can not be critisized ?

As there some, I humbly suggest, are of a mindset that the EU can not be commended ?

Unlike you I think Yannis is a little misguided in his ongoing support for this very corrupt organisation.

To be honest I find this use of the the adjective 'corrupt', so relentlessly applied to the EU by some, as at best 'lazy' and at worst propaganda. What Mr Varoufakis' book so harshly and convincingly laid bare to me about the EU was not how 'corrupt' is was. How structurally and endemically 'democratically deficient' it is - sure but that is not, for me at least, the same as corrupt.

[erol]

The hope was that you were not left as the top stone on the pyramid that would take the fall when the inevitable default arrived.

The 'hope' was that whilst the going was good the profits would remain private and when the collapse came the losses would be nationalised. Which is exactly what happened. This nationalisation of private companies losses was done by government. The public paid for the private companies excesses and no section of the 'first world' public paid a higher price for this than the Greek people imo. Pardon my language but imo the institutions of the EU shat on them from a great height with little regard for concepts like accountability, transparency or democracy.

[turtle]

The hope was that you were not left as the top stone on the pyramid that would take the fall when the inevitable default arrived.

The 'hope' was that whilst the going was good the profits would remain private and when the collapse came the losses would be nationalised. Which is exactly what happened. This nationalisation of private companies losses was done by government. The public paid for the private companies excesses and no section of the 'first world' public paid a higher price for this than the Greek people imo. Pardon my language but imo the institutions of the EU shat on them from a great height with little regard for concepts like accountability, transparency or democracy.

And that is not corupt ??....c'mon Erol

[waz-24-7]

The hope was that you were not left as the top stone on the pyramid that would take the fall when the inevitable default arrived.

The 'hope' was that whilst the going was good the profits would remain private and when the collapse came the losses would be nationalised. Which is exactly what happened. This nationalisation of private companies losses was done by government. The public paid for the private companies excesses and no section of the 'first world' public paid a higher price for this than the Greek people imo. Pardon my language but imo the institutions of the EU shat on them from a great height with little regard for concepts like accountability, transparency or democracy.

And that is not corupt ??....c'mon Erol

Irregularities, corruption, questionable ethics, interest rate manipulation, money laundering, tax avoidance, tax evasion, unscrupulous behavior, legalised robbery.
This is modern banking. Not just in the EU. Its GLOBAL.
Money is power. Power is control. Control is power.
Money and Power that's capitalism and generally that's what we all abide by

[turtle]

Waz- "I do support the notion and philosophy of a European Union providing security and prosperity for Europeans"

Spoken like a Northern European business owner with blinkers on, say that to a Greek.

Greek GDP's worst decline, −6.9%, came in 2011,[163] a year in which seasonally adjusted industrial output ended 28.4% lower than in 2005.[164][165] During that year, 111,000 Greek companies went bankrupt (27% higher than in 2010).[166][167] As a result, the seasonally adjusted unemployment rate grew from 7.5% in September 2008 to a then record high of 23.1% in May 2012, while the youth unemployment rate time rose from 22.0% to 54.9%.[

The social effects of the austerity measures on the Greek population were severe.[187] In February 2012, it was reported that 20,000 Greeks had been made homeless during the preceding year, and that 20 per cent of shops in the historic city centre of Athens were empty

Waz -I do not support Jean-Claude Junker as leader of the EU

How would you use your vote to influence the EU's choice of leader?

Haha Whizzed straight over his head that one Kerry !

[erol]

The hope was that you were not left as the top stone on the pyramid that would take the fall when the inevitable default arrived.

The 'hope' was that whilst the going was good the profits would remain private and when the collapse came the losses would be nationalised. Which is exactly what happened. This nationalisation of private companies losses was done by government. The public paid for the private companies excesses and no section of the 'first world' public paid a higher price for this than the Greek people imo. Pardon my language but imo the institutions of the EU shat on them from a great height with little regard for concepts like accountability, transparency or democracy.

And that is not corupt ??....c'mon Erol

No for me it is not corrupt. For me corruption is when those involved in making these decisions took hidden payments personally. That is not what happened.

In any case, this 'nationalisation' of private loses was an act that was 'sovereign' essentially based on currency. So Greece as a member of the Euro zone was not sovereign. However the UK as an EU member that was not part of the Euro zone was 'sovereign' in this regard and it behaved no differently as far as the nationalisation of private losses go. So once again, for me, in or out of the EU (rather than in or out of Euro zone) really makes no difference in the UK's case on this issue.

[kerry 6138]

Irregularities, corruption, questionable ethics, interest rate manipulation, money laundering, tax avoidance, tax evasion, unscrupulous behavior, legalised robbery.
This is modern banking. Not just in the EU. Its GLOBAL.
Money is power. Power is control. Control is power.
Money and Power that's capitalism and generally that's what we all abide by

While we are recomending books perhaps Waz you would like to read a book entitled Socialism by Tony Blair.

[turtle]

The 'hope' was that whilst the going was good the profits would remain private and when the collapse came the losses would be nationalised. Which is exactly what happened. This nationalisation of private companies losses was done by government. The public paid for the private companies excesses and no section of the 'first world' public paid a higher price for this than the Greek people imo. Pardon my language but imo the institutions of the EU shat on them from a great height with little regard for concepts like accountability, transparency or democracy.[/quote]

And that is not corupt ??....c'mon Erol[/quote]

No for me it is not corrupt. For me corruption is when those involved in making these decisions took hidden payments personally. That is not what happened.

In any case, this 'nationalisation' of private loses was an act that was 'sovereign' essentially based on currency. So Greece as a member of the Euro zone was not sovereign. However the UK as an EU member that was not part of the Euro zone was 'sovereign' in this regard and it behaved no differently as far as the nationalisation of private losses go. So once again, for me, in or out of the EU (rather than in or out of Euro zone) really makes no difference in the UK's case on this issue.[/quote]


So corruption is down to people receiving large brown envelopes stuffed with cash then,.. yes that’s one form I suppose ? but the French and German banks collected Millions of brown envelopes as part of this scheme saddled onto Greece which has virtually confined this country to debt and austerity for the foreseeable future,. Huge reductions in wages and pensions High unemployment and virtually no public spending and as said The French/German Banks have benefitted from this may not be corrupt in your eyes but is morally corrupt in mine.
And as for the UK governments bank bailouts that money has all but been paid back now,,, a little bit different scenario don’t you think ?

[erol]

So corruption is down to people receiving large brown envelopes stuffed with cash then,.. yes that’s one form I suppose ? but the French and German banks collected Millions of brown envelopes as part of this scheme saddled onto Greece which has virtually confined this country to debt and austerity for the foreseeable future,

Yes this is what happend but no in my view it is not 'corruption' in the sense that it was all done 'publicly'. That few people care or understand does not change this imo.

And as for the UK governments bank bailouts that money has all but been paid back now,,,

The 100's of billions of new money created by the Bank of England and used for 'quantitative easing' has not been paid back. The BoE used this money to buy vast amounts of 'securities' from banks and these still remain on the BoE books. The mechanism was a means of effectively transferring vast amount of 'public' money to private banks and it has not been 'paid back'. Yes the BoE has 'securities' of various kinds in exchange for the money they gave banks but if the reality is these 'securities' can not be sold on the open market for what the BoE paid for them, which I beleive is the case, then its all just a smoke and mirrors.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

All of the problems highlighted existed before our entry in to the EEC as far as I can see. It seems to me therefore reasonable to imagine a future when they still exist once we leave the EU.

Are aware of the fact the 'UK PLC' was seeking to succeed in the markets of the EEC and enjoy the benefits of ease of trade in the 70's - as our trade with other markets - such as the US and other former colonies was going to dwindle ? Which it did..

How CAN 'we' succeed as a minor player in a macro market - esp. just as the US, under 'Tramp', are talking up protectionism ?


LUNACY

Trump talks up a lot of things but the protectionism is aimed at China as they have a chronic trade deficit with them problem is if they indulge in a trade war with China the Chinese will liquidate their holdings in U.S. treasuries something like $2 trillion. In the scheme of things our trade with the US is not on the radar

[EnjoyingTheSun]

I continue to witness from "wrinkles" ( no offence ) who have no vested input or influence upon the UK economy who take the very simplistic view that everything may or may not be OK.
The younger 20 -30 yr olds are to carry this through. I feel for them after experiencing massive pressure from university fees, home grown housing ladder pressure plus the difficulty in finding work.

I remain of the opinion that the said "wrinklies" perhaps unwittingly have sold the us down the river. At least for the next decade.
I hope those same persons can sit with their children and or grandchildren and explain their decision, uncertainty and support them during a very difficult and uncertain future outside of Europe.[/quote]



Not the wrinklies argument!
Maybe the wrinklies are wise and cynical enough to know when they are being lied to as the UK has even before we joined the EU and can recognise spin for what it is.

As for the potential catastrophe we are facing, no one really knows with any certainty. The remainers who seem to welcome it are the same who believed our economy would fall off a cliff if we didn't join the Euro.

University fees are a different argument and no doubt will be blamed on Brexit. But it is a great example of political lies and spin.
God forbid anybody question how exactly that wise old sage Tony Blair was going to deliver on getting 50% of school leavers into university when historically 10-15% go.
Obviously it was gong to be more expensive.
Obviously they were going to have to dumb down exams.
Obviously they were going to have to turn polytechnics into universities.
Obviously they were going to have to invent degrees for students to have a go at.

I'm more than happy that anyone studying engineering that might actually qualify and make a contribution to our future should get a full free grant. That said they will be sponsored by a company anyway.

For someone who has 10A* GCSE's that they can barely read, I'm afraid they should pay to study media studies or the history of political science. Like you do for all hobbies.

Still it was one hell of a catch phrase Tony.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

Kerry.
Upon Greece,
Research will show you that the Greek administration has been historically (at least for past decade) rife with corruption, tax avoidance, poor controls,
poor tax collection policies. The result. The economic mess they arrived at. Now many Europeans including myself have been rather angered at the bail outs given to Greece.
However the Greeks were obliged to meet strict and cutting reforms to secure monies. Now we are some time ahead. I believe Greece has emerged as a reformed economy with better administration, distribution of wealth and will only become stronger. This cannot be linked directly to their membership of the Union. However I think most Greeks are now quite thankful for the support provided and for the reforms that have taken within their country.

The Greek economy has always been a basket case.
They joined the euro to hopefully solve the problems caused by corruption etc etc.
The only problem was they couldn't meet the targets to join.
So they lowered their budget deficit by moving pensions and such like off the books. To lower inflation they froze prices on electricity and water and cut taxes on gas etc. Then remove a few of the higher priced items off the consumer price index and hey presto the meet the targets.
Good due diligence from the EU there.
Now in the Euro, they could borrow money at 5% instead of 18% all they had to do was pretend their budget deficits were below 3% of GDP.
Goodman Sachs earned $300 million in fees for helping them massage their figures. So do take with a pinch of salt any views expressed from their ilk.
So Greece got another 8 years out of essentially a payday loan.
Now good luck to them.
If after paying minimal tax you allow your workers who do "arduous" work retire at 55 (50 for women) on a generous state pension that's great but to expect others to increase their retirement age to subsidise your workers is a big ask. BTW hairdressing and musicians qualify as arduous.

So it isn't a surprise the EU is playing hardball, would you want bills like that divided by 3 countries instead of 4?