Three cheers for Brexit

[erol]

It feels almost as if 'independence' , the most extreme expression of it, is something that is vital and necessary for the people of the UK and must be achieved and maintained at all cost now and against all possible future risk at pretty much any cost fiscal and human but it is not something the 'wogs' should really expect or aspire too.

Again putting words in my mouth.

Just letting you know how what you said feels as a Cypriot.

I am a Cypriot nationalist. I believe there is something unique and common across all types of Cypriot that make them unique from other groups. Not better. Not worse but different and unique in their own way. This kind of Cypriot nationalism recognises that a mixture of cultures in various proportions IS what makes us different and unique from other groups and is to be celebrated.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

Just letting you know how what you said feels as a Cypriot.

I am a Cypriot nationalist. I believe there is something unique and common across all types of Cypriot that make them unique from other groups. Not better. Not worse but different and unique in their own way. This kind of Cypriot nationalism recognises that a mixture of cultures in various proportions IS what makes us different and unique from other groups and is to be celebrated.

I love Cyprus and the Cypriots, I wouldn't live here otherwise.

I'm no expert on Cypriot history but from what I understand Cyprus hasn't often been truly independent except for the period between 1960 and 1974 and that didn't go too well.
Looking on I think there is more that unites GCs and TCs than not but they seem to struggle to live together. There seems to be more will from the TCs to unite than from the GCs but as more and more mainland Turks come to live in Cyprus that can only dilute the Cypriot nationality unless they feel they are now more Cypriot than Turkish.
The economy as such seems that they would struggle to survive independently so maybe will always need to have a paternalistic power to assist them. For the GCs their preference is Greece and for the TCs their preference is Turkey.
Like Ireland and Israel/Palestine, a one state solution seems difficult so we are left with a two state solution. A two state solution will make it even more difficult to survive economically.
The only solution I can possibly see is a two state solution with the UN as the guarantor power who mediates.
The problem with that is the UN itself is a by no means an unbiased organisation itself.

[thornaby]

Getting back on track, the eu did not want us to leave the eu, they did their best to prevent it, that failed so now they want to to try and punishes us but more importantly they want to discourage others from leaving their vile club, I say again there cheers for Brexit . The eu is one of the most most undemocratic institutions ever!

[Groucho]

Getting back on track, the eu did not want us to leave the eu, they did their best to prevent it,

If they had done their best they wouldn't have sent David Cameron away with a flea in his ear when he implored them to rethink the plans for a European federal superstate... instead we were told in no uncertain terms that the process of reducing individual states' sovereignty was to be accelerated. A missed opportunity to allay fears...

Played straight into the scenario that precipitated the referendum.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

If they had done their best they wouldn't have sent David Cameron away with a flea in his ear when he implored them to rethink the plans for a European federal superstate... instead we were told in no uncertain terms that the process of reducing individual states' sovereignty was to be accelerated. A missed opportunity to allay fears...

Played straight into the scenario that precipitated the referendum.

Never underestimate arrogance.
Cameron never made any secret he wanted to stay in the EU and was pretty confident Britain would vote to stay in.
So why would the EU make any concessions?
Be it EU membership, gym membership or re-negotiating your mobile phone contract, the company will never make any concessions if they know you aren’t committed to walking away if the offer doesn’t suit.
Also the EU has got away with murders with referendums. Vote against what they are selling and they will just make you vote again until you say yes.

Now the EU has the problem that if they give too much then others will want to leave as well. Not a problem if they aren’t net contributors but a big problem if they are.

The EU project as intended will be as dead as mutton within 20 years and you never want to be the last off a sinking ship?

[waddo]

On a brighter note - if you were last off the sinking ship you would stand a good chance that the sharks had already eaten their fill and left the area so you could safely swim away!

Being first off to dive into the unknown makes you prey to all the sharks unless you have a good leader with a solid plan or can swim really, really fast - lol. As far as I can see from all the news reports, the UK misses the boat all both those desirables.

I suppose the only light on the horizon is that UK will own its own sea and can ban all the sharks from it's shores!

[waz-24-7]

The Cypriot "problem" does not lie comfortably with many UK citizens that may remember the era when the UK was a guarantor power. The mess and lack of leadership was essentially partly to blame for the Turkish intervention. The dilution of Cypriot nationality and the division we see today is sad and the nationalistic views of the "Greek" side led to the ethinic cleansing of TC's and murder of British troops. A sad time indeed.

Now in the NEW independent take control back UK. We too see sad nationalistic tendencies emerging as the UK takes a weaker position on the global stage. Soon we will see Scotland once again attempt to depart the Kingdom. For exactly the reasons that many voted to leave the Union. They hate the London Parliament and its power over them.
Wales and Ireland will surely follow suit.
The further weakened UK will slowly but surely sink below the power horizon as stronger unified States, Unions , affiliates join forces and gain in strength. United States, Russian Federation, South American allegiance..
The Global language of power and prosperity is domination via union and expansion. We have seen Russia and China expanding its influence, often forcibly. The UK is heading in quite the opposite direction as the Kingdom splits and divides. The old time Commonwealth including Cyprus , Hong Kong etc disappears into history seen only in text books , google searches and within the minds of old soldiers.

Perhaps in time lessons will be learnt and a new structure within the Union and the UK will see a renewed partnership. Certainly the current "them and us "positions leave the parties in a lose lose situation. Just how much it will cost. We can only wander into the uncertainty in hope.

[Hedge-fund]

Any country that has gained its independence, including Cyprus, will tell you that freedom is something you can't put a price on.

The idea that voluntary ceding of degrees of nation sovereignty by agreement is a loss of 'independence' comparable to the colonial occupation of your country is to me ridiculous and as a Cypriot, offensive to boot. Cyprus did indeed gain independence from British colonialism (in my fathers life time) and as an independent nation it today chooses to be a member of the EU.

You are cypriot and I am not so I wouldn't dare to be so rude as to lecture a cypriot on what it's like to be a cypriot and wouldn't have the nerve or cheek to tell a cypriot how to bow or not to the eu and how to vote in eu matters.

I would however humbly request that any cypriot would reciprocate.

[thornaby]

Waz, I live happy with my out of date veiws. The common market was never promoted as a "stepping stone" to a European superstate that will be governed by an unelected undemocratic elite. People have fought and died for independence and recognition of their country, why anyone should feel happy about giving that up bewilders me.

[Medjoul1]

Three cheers for higher food prices

Three cheers for a lowering of standards accross the board

Three cheers for the fat cats getting fatter while the common man suffers the consequences

Thats just for Brexit starters

[thornaby]

Medjoul1, its rich of you to talk of fat cats, the fattest of cats "work" in the cesspit of the Eu bureaucracy, unaccountable and at our expense, so yes three cheers and more for Brexit !

[rigsby]

thornaby,With you all the way,The eu has ruined my industry,(Transport)

[EnjoyingTheSun]

Three cheers for higher food prices

You know the EU puts tariffs on to protect the interests of its members right? So you can buy artificially inflated Oranges from Spain or if you choose not to hammer them with tariffs you can buy cheaper from outside the EU.

Three cheers for a lowering of standards accross the board

The other trick the EU uses to protect the interests of its members is to regulate the life out of goods from outside the EU. But hey there is nothing to stop you over-regulating when you are outside the EU if that floats your boat.

Three cheers for the fat cats getting fatter while the common man suffers the consequences

Actually the EU regulations suit big businesses over small businesses. Big businesses can afford to hire lawyers to go through the mountain of EU laws and regulations. Basic economies of scale. Tony Benn and, when he was being honest, Jeremy Cotbyn were totally against the EU and they are not people that encourage fat cats getting fatter.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

On a brighter note - if you were last off the sinking ship you would stand a good chance that the sharks had already eaten their fill and left the area so you could safely swim away!

Without being too technical I think jumping off a big ship at the last minute as it goes down you'd have to be able to swim like Michael Phelps on steroids to get away from the drag so sharks aren't going to be an immediate problem tbh.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

The Cypriot "problem" does not lie comfortably with many UK citizens that may remember the era when the UK was a guarantor power. The mess and lack of leadership was essentially partly to blame for the Turkish intervention. The dilution of Cypriot nationality and the division we see today is sad and the nationalistic views of the "Greek" side led to the ethinic cleansing of TC's and murder of British troops. A sad time indeed.

Britain certainly dropped the ball in 1974 but tbf we can't do right for wrong in situations like that. If we get involved then we are accused of bringing back colonialism.

Now in the NEW independent take control back UK. We too see sad nationalistic tendencies emerging as the UK takes a weaker position on the global stage. Soon we will see Scotland once again attempt to depart the Kingdom. For exactly the reasons that many voted to leave the Union. They hate the London Parliament and its power over them.
Wales and Ireland will surely follow suit.
The further weakened UK will slowly but surely sink below the power horizon as stronger unified States, Unions , affiliates join forces and gain in strength. United States, Russian Federation, South American allegiance..
The Global language of power and prosperity is domination via union and expansion. We have seen Russia and China expanding its influence, often forcibly. The UK is heading in quite the opposite direction as the Kingdom splits and divides. The old time Commonwealth including Cyprus , Hong Kong etc disappears into history seen only in text books , google searches and within the minds of old soldiers.

Your argument overlooks the fact that throughout the EU far right parties or nationalistic parties have gotten a fair foothold due to people's dislike of the EU. If people are going to have their nationhood removed they at least want to have a say in the matter.
As for the rest of the nonsense I will feel your pain when Britain doesn't totally collapse after leaving the EU.

[erol]

As for the rest of the nonsense I will feel your pain when Britain doesn't totally collapse after leaving the EU.

And I yours when the EU does not totally collapse either.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

And I yours when the EU does not totally collapse either.

I don't think it will totally collapse as such but the project to create a super state will. I can see it going back to being a trading organisation again with far fewer members which is what was sold to us in the first place.
Obviously they will then try to surreptitiously try to turn it into a super state again and rinse and repeat. They are nothing if not patient.

[Groucho]

In 1974 the UK would not have intervened because in those days UK politics never looked beyond 'its 'Christians' and Moslems and we don't side with Moslems in those circumstances... The UK was quite racist, and with Prince Philip being a Greek royal it was just how things were.

Nowadays things are changing slowly - not least because the advent of the internet, very little remains hidden or brushed under the carpet for long..

[EnjoyingTheSun]

In 1974 the UK would not have intervened because in those days UK politics never looked beyond 'its 'Christians' and Moslems and we don't side with Moslems in those circumstances... The UK was quite racist, and with Prince Philip being a Greek royal it was just how things were.

Nowadays things are changing slowly - not least because the advent of the internet, very little remains hidden or brushed under the carpet for long..

You know there are 300,000 Turkish Cypriots in the UK right? compared with how many in the TRNC?
Don't think they all went to the UK post Windows 95.
Britain was more racist back then, but not that racist and certainly not as racist then or now as many seem obsessed with pretending.

Things have changed and it hasn't been that slow and the internet has only helped the race hustlers such as the BLM which want to drive division.
Our grandparent were bought up in a country with very few non white faces. Black people were a novelty.
Our parents were bought up in a country with an increasing number of non white faces. Those changes take a while to get used to.
We were bought up in a country with lots of non white faces.
My school was approximately a third white, a third asian and a third black. Personally I didn't need to google black people I could look accross a classroom or knock for my neighbours. As such I know they are as perfect and imperfect as the rest of us because they are people.
A multi racial country is something our generation is comfortable with.

Now we have a few people who are trying to stir up racial division to push an agenda. Ironically they are middle class marxists from ultra white areas. They will seek out and pal up with some middle class black person at uni to get edgy and now feel they have an insight and expertise into how typical black people think. It is laughable really.
Britain has become a melting pot. We had some teething problems but we got over it.

Anyone who think BLM and Antifa give a tinkers cuss about black lives is totally naive.

[waz-24-7]

The Cypriot "problem" does not lie comfortably with many UK citizens that may remember the era when the UK was a guarantor power. The mess and lack of leadership was essentially partly to blame for the Turkish intervention. The dilution of Cypriot nationality and the division we see today is sad and the nationalistic views of the "Greek" side led to the ethinic cleansing of TC's and murder of British troops. A sad time indeed.

Britain certainly dropped the ball in 1974 but tbf we can't do right for wrong in situations like that. If we get involved then we are accused of bringing back colonialism.

Now in the NEW independent take control back UK. We too see sad nationalistic tendencies emerging as the UK takes a weaker position on the global stage. Soon we will see Scotland once again attempt to depart the Kingdom. For exactly the reasons that many voted to leave the Union. They hate the London Parliament and its power over them.
Wales and Ireland will surely follow suit.
The further weakened UK will slowly but surely sink below the power horizon as stronger unified States, Unions , affiliates join forces and gain in strength. United States, Russian Federation, South American allegiance..
The Global language of power and prosperity is domination via union and expansion. We have seen Russia and China expanding its influence, often forcibly. The UK is heading in quite the opposite direction as the Kingdom splits and divides. The old time Commonwealth including Cyprus , Hong Kong etc disappears into history seen only in text books , google searches and within the minds of old soldiers.

Your argument overlooks the fact that throughout the EU far right parties or nationalistic parties have gotten a fair foothold due to people's dislike of the EU. If people are going to have their nationhood removed they at least want to have a say in the matter.
As for the rest of the nonsense I will feel your pain when Britain doesn't totally collapse after leaving the EU.

Far right parties are indeed gathering momentum. This , in my opinion, is due to xenophobic attitudes to immigration and also to money.
Generally workers feel threatened by migrant labour. Particularly in low skill sectors. "they're stealing our jobs" prevails. Strange however that professionals such as doctors, surgeons health workers and indeed the wealthy see rather less rejection.

I'm afraid divorce from the Union is not a solution or a prudent move. The increasingly smaller globe combined with the WWW. network, travel, infrastructure advances only fuels the demise of the small independent corner shop (the UK is becoming such a corner shop)
As someone else has already said. I feel your pain when the Union and other alliances DO NOT indeed collapse. The pain of the very real potential demise of the United Kingdom will be painful for all of the UK... brought about in the main by poor BREXIT decisions.

[waz-24-7]

thornaby,
With you all the way,The eu has ruined my industry,(Transport)

Hmmm
sorry but the EU cannot be blamed for a decline in the transport sector. The Industry has been poorly managed and represented for many years. The owners and managers failed to secure representation within government and fuel cost in the EU led to some major difficulties.
Certainly come January the industry could well see significant collapses as trucks stack up waiting to cross borders, arrange additional paperwork. and see a large increase in stop and search because they are soon to hold alien status.

Already we see delays in all sectors of logistics. Felixstowe is 8 weeks behind imports. Container shipping costs from Far east have increased 3 fold in past 3 months as has India and other key supply chains.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

Generally workers feel threatened by migrant labour. Particularly in low skill sectors. "they're stealing our jobs" prevails. Strange however that professionals such as doctors, surgeons health workers and indeed the wealthy see rather less rejection.

For professionals and the wealthy immigration equals cheap au pairs and little threat to their jobs.
Generally the working classes are most effected by immigration. School places and housing etc.
Labour has chosen to label these reasonable concerns as racist and is somehow astonished that they have lost the working class vote.

I'm afraid divorce from the Union is not a solution or a prudent move. The increasingly smaller globe combined with the WWW. network, travel, infrastructure advances only fuels the demise of the small independent corner shop (the UK is becoming such a corner shop)
As someone else has already said. I feel your pain when the Union and other alliances DO NOT indeed collapse. The pain of the very real potential demise of the United Kingdom will be painful for all of the UK... brought about in the main by poor BREXIT decisions.

What on Earth are you are talking about?
I have no wish for the Union to collapse. YOU said the Union was liable to collapse and seemed to be quite excited about the prospect. It seems that you would be delighted the more Britain suffers for people not voting how you wanted them to.
The Union won’t collapse but should the people of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland vote to leave then that is their democratic right and I wish them well.
As for Britain being a corner shop, we are the 5th largest economy in the world. I could do with a laugh so give us a prediction like the value of the TL what position do you think Britain’s economy will be in 10 years time?
Not where you hope, which will obviously be in the 100s but where do you think?

[EnjoyingTheSun]

Already we see delays in all sectors of logistics. Felixstowe is 8 weeks behind imports. Container shipping costs from Far east have increased 3 fold in past 3 months as has India and other key supply chains.

The usual everything good is down to the EU and everything bad is due to us leaving the EU nonsense.
It has zero to do with us leaving the EU and everything to do with covid.

“ China is putting pressure on CMA CGM, one of the world’s biggest shipping companies, to keep a lid on record container freight costs, which have been driven up by a recovery in demand following the coronavirus pandemic.”

https://www.ft.com/content/a013548c-903 ... 31c4eb2fba

I’ll ignore the rest as it just encourages you to pray for Britain to be engulfed in a nuclear holocaust or worse for having the temerity to leave the EU.

[waz-24-7]

Already we see delays in all sectors of logistics. Felixstowe is 8 weeks behind imports. Container shipping costs from Far east have increased 3 fold in past 3 months as has India and other key supply chains.

The usual everything good is down to the EU and everything bad is due to us leaving the EU nonsense.
It has zero to do with us leaving the EU and everything to do with covid.

“ China is putting pressure on CMA CGM, one of the world’s biggest shipping companies, to keep a lid on record container freight costs, which have been driven up by a recovery in demand following the coronavirus pandemic.”

https://www.ft.com/content/a013548c-903 ... 31c4eb2fba

I’ll ignore the rest as it just encourages you to pray for Britain to be engulfed in a nuclear holocaust or worse for having the temerity to leave the EU.

I expected this type of response. Google can bring you so much these days.

From someone on the front line and dealing with real day to day issues.

The logistics industry has been praying that the government will get things sorted and issue clear directions for months...no in fact years.
Increased levels of red tape and preparations for the final exit have been very time consuming and expensive and that just trying to find out what we need to do!! Past month motorway signs have told us to get ready. As the head of the CBI said last week. Do exactly what? complete what paper work exactly? go where for the guidance needed?

It is abundantly clear that BREXIT has been rushed, poorly thought out and the UK is simply totally un prepared. How much more do you need to illustrate what a fiasco it is. Oh … but well have our independence and have taken back control. Please do tell me how we' re all better off and things are better come January...3 weeks away.

[waz-24-7]

Generally workers feel threatened by migrant labour. Particularly in low skill sectors. "they're stealing our jobs" prevails. Strange however that professionals such as doctors, surgeons health workers and indeed the wealthy see rather less rejection.

For professionals and the wealthy immigration equals cheap au pairs and little threat to their jobs.
Generally the working classes are most effected by immigration. School places and housing etc.
Labour has chosen to label these reasonable concerns as racist and is somehow astonished that they have lost the working class vote.

I'm afraid divorce from the Union is not a solution or a prudent move. The increasingly smaller globe combined with the WWW. network, travel, infrastructure advances only fuels the demise of the small independent corner shop (the UK is becoming such a corner shop)
As someone else has already said. I feel your pain when the Union and other alliances DO NOT indeed collapse. The pain of the very real potential demise of the United Kingdom will be painful for all of the UK... brought about in the main by poor BREXIT decisions.

What on Earth are you are talking about?
I have no wish for the Union to collapse. YOU said the Union was liable to collapse and seemed to be quite excited about the prospect. It seems that you would be delighted the more Britain suffers for people not voting how you wanted them to.
The Union won’t collapse but should the people of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland vote to leave then that is their democratic right and I wish them well.
As for Britain being a corner shop, we are the 5th largest economy in the world. I could do with a laugh so give us a prediction like the value of the TL what position do you think Britain’s economy will be in 10 years time?
Not where you hope, which will obviously be in the 100s but where do you think?

Yes the UK is currently the 5th largest global economy which is great and being members of the Union has assisted that position immensely.
The EU is our largest and most valuable customer. Why oh why would you want to seek divorce proceedings against any customer.
Oh yes...so we can take back control.
someone please turn the lights on or have I got my business model completely wrong.

Where will we be in 10 yrs? Well I hope we will have gone through the cycle and a much closer trade alliance with the EU will register as essential.
To remain a power house within the global economy we must compete and export export and export I see little positivity based on the current and next 5 yrs outlook. Other nations will capitalise on our weakened position. It already seems like a game of catch up after Brexit to me.
I cannot comment on the tl but the situation within Turkey is likely to change for the better. Turkey has always been the crossroads between East and West. The NEW China / Europe land bridge under construction opens up massive opportunities for investment into Turkey. As a manufacturing centre and as a gateway for developing economies such as Kazakhstan, Georgia and Azerbaijan its all positive.

[kerry 6138]

Waz-24-7 "Far right parties are indeed gathering momentum"

Which far right parties have gathered momentum since the referendum?
Two elections and we still have a two party parliament.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

Waz-24-7 "Far right parties are indeed gathering momentum"

Which far right parties have gathered momentum since the referendum?
Two elections and we still have a two party parliament.

Was probably means any parties bar Labour and the Greens. He doesn’t seem to know much about what is happening in Britain or indeed planet Earth

[waz-24-7]

Waz-24-7 "Far right parties are indeed gathering momentum"

Which far right parties have gathered momentum since the referendum?
Two elections and we still have a two party parliament.

Kerry
I refer to Europe in General. Rightwing politics in several EU countries is gathering momentum. In particular France, Netherlands and Germany.
The momentum of such political viewpoints is driven in part by xenophobic attitudes against immigrant labour and migration of populations across borders.
This has led to the BREXIT vote within the UK. The general hope, I believe, is that being outside of the EU the UK can somehow protect itself from "undesirables" and yet remain competitive, successful and prosper. Everyone else will line up to do business with us whilst our British perfect and privileged way of life is maintained within our heavily guarded borders. If your wealthy, elite or well educated then yes of course your welcome into Nirvana.

The planet has become far too small for this type of regime to either succeed of prosper. The global shift in power and influence will not stop and I believe the UK will find it very difficult indeed to succeed. The risk now is the UK will soon be left behind as it clings to the very last strings of commonwealth, global influence and wealth.
I'm certain we will try and I'm for one changing tack to suit the prevailing winds. I've done my time so its not quite so critical but young persons setting out to sea for the first time will need to navigate with care and attention as the seas are likely quite choppy.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

I expected this type of response.

What the real reason why costs have gone up 3 fold in the last 3 months?

[sophie]

Well now the bloke with his scruffy blonde hair is wending his way over to Brussels. More for photo opportunities in the UK papers and TV more than to achieve anything beneficial I suspect, but we live in hope

[EnjoyingTheSun]

Well now the bloke with his scruffy blonde hair is wending his way over to Brussels. More for photo opportunities in the UK papers and TV more than to achieve anything beneficial I suspect, but we live in hope

It's extremely sexist to concentrate on a man's appearance, men have had to put up with this too long.
Boris isn't a piece of meat who's only role is having his photo taken.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

Yes the UK is currently the 5th largest global economy which is great and being members of the Union has assisted that position immensely.

The EU is our largest and most valuable customer. Why oh why would you want to seek divorce proceedings against any customer.
Oh yes...so we can take back control.

The EU is our largest customer because we have had to make it our largest customer as a result of being in the EU, so that's a self fulfilling prophesy.
Re seeking a divorce from a large customer. The are a lot of farmers who climbed into bed with large supermarkets who now bitterly regret that decision. They now are told what to grow and what to sell and for how much by the large supermarket who has now positioned themself as their only customer and who squeezes their margin more and more each year.

As for our economy being 5th in the world and whether the EU has assisted in that.
We were 5th in 1971 so little change there.
Germany were 2nd and are now 4th.
France were 4th and now 7th.
Italy 6th, now 8th.
Spain 12th, now 14th.
Holland 13th, now 17th
Greece 23rd and now not even in the top 50.

Not all of these drops can be blamed on the EU admitidly although I do wonder if their membership of the Euro has been a factor. It certainly was for Greece.
The fact is on average European countries outside the EU have outperformed countries inside the EU. Ditto countries worldwide as a whole. So the EU has under performed.
Another thing to remember is from 1972 to 1979 our economy was in the toilet and it was Thatcher together with North Sea Oil that pulled us out. Nothing to do with the EU although we had been members for 7 years. The only help that gave us was to keep increasing our membership fees until Thatcher stopped them.

Other nations will capitalise on our weakened position.

What of still being the 5th largest economy? One that is now not weighed down by economic basket cases?

It already seems like a game of catch up after Brexit to me.

Already? We haven't left yet and all the scare stories have so far been total BS.

I cannot comment on the tl but the situation within Turkey is likely to change for the better. Turkey has always been the crossroads between East and West. The NEW China / Europe land bridge under construction opens up massive opportunities for investment into Turkey. As a manufacturing centre and as a gateway for developing economies such as Kazakhstan, Georgia and Azerbaijan its all positive.

Well with your cunning eye for the performance of the TL and European economics in general how about we do a forward contract? In ten years time I'll sell you a million TL at a rate of 11 to the pound? The current rate is 10,4 so that's more than fair.

[erol]

The EU is our largest customer because we have had to make it our largest customer as a result of being in the EU, so that's a self fulfilling prophesy.

And before we joined the EEC how much of our exports went to Europe ? Did we not join because Europe was already our largest trading partner back then ?

Already? We haven't left yet and all the scare stories have so far been total BS.

It is not a scare story to insist as some kind of inevitable certainty that if we remain in the EU then we will be forced or tricked against our will to join a super state and give up all national sovereignty and have no ability to refuse such should we wish to ? Not project fear to lie and say we have already agreed to this surrendering when we have not ? This is a project fear line that has been fed to the UK population relentlessly over 40 years and it is in fact nonsense. The whole leave campaign was based on fear from day one.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

And before we joined the EEC how much of our exports went to Europe ? Did we not join because Europe was already our largest trading partner back then ?

In 1961 43% of Britain's exports went to the Commonwealth. 17% to Common Market countries.
By 1971 I believe it was roughly equal or 20% Commonwealth, 21% EEC. In the 20 years after accession trade with the EEC doubled.

So by 1971 it certainly looked as if Europe was the way to go but there is an element of crystal ball here.
Who is to say the decline in trade with the commonwealth would have continued? Whilst the growth of the EEC was impressive before we joined it has certainly been outperformed since.
In 1972 Red Rum was a great horse to back in the Grand National by 2012 not so much.

We certainly cut our commonwealth partners adrift once we joined the common market so we might well have backed the wrong horse, all indications point that way. .

It is not a scare story to insist as some kind of inevitable certainty that if we remain in the EU then we will be forced or tricked against our will to join a super state and give up all national sovereignty and have no ability to refuse such should we wish to ? Not project fear to lie and say we have already agreed to this surrendering when we have not ? This is a project fear line that has been fed to the UK population relentlessly over 40 years and it is in fact nonsense. The whole leave campaign was based on fear from day one.

OK the EU is a trading organisation.
Please name me another trading organisation that has it's;
Own Laws
Own Courts
Own Parliament
Own MPs
Own Army.
Own Flag
Own Anthem
Own Currency

Sounds like at least the beginnings of a super state or country to me?
OK there are differences between countries in laws and suchlike between member states, after all full integration takes time especially when whole populations are against it. Slowly slowly does it.
There are vast differences between laws in individual American states but no one doubts the United States of America is a country do they?

I can't be the only person who remembers the EU army being debunked as a scare story pre referendum.

If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck and looks like a duck, chances are it's a duck.

[waddo]

I see that scruffy Boris is off to Belgium on Wednesday to finalise his No Deal wish! Is it cynical of me to suggest he is going on a last Duty Free run before that stops as well!

[jofra]

As an aside - perhaps if Boris' "Monster Mash" doesn't do the trick, perhaps his Monster Rap will swing the deal?

[Groucho]

If they had done their best they wouldn't have sent David Cameron away with a flea in his ear when he implored them to rethink the plans for a European federal superstate... instead we were told in no uncertain terms that the process of reducing individual states' sovereignty was to be accelerated. A missed opportunity to allay fears...

Played straight into the scenario that precipitated the referendum.

Never underestimate arrogance.
Cameron never made any secret he wanted to stay in the EU and was pretty confident Britain would vote to stay in.
So why would the EU make any concessions?
Be it EU membership, gym membership or re-negotiating your mobile phone contract, the company will never make any concessions if they know you aren’t committed to walking away if the offer doesn’t suit.
Also the EU has got away with murders with referendums. Vote against what they are selling and they will just make you vote again until you say yes.

Now the EU has the problem that if they give too much then others will want to leave as well. Not a problem if they aren’t net contributors but a big problem if they are.

The EU project as intended will be as dead as mutton within 20 years and you never want to be the last off a sinking ship?

Well either way they misjudged the effect of throwing petrol on the fire... even though arch-federalists like Guy Verhofstadt are still determined to push with their dream of a super state there are plenty of member states' politicians who fear a backlash at the polls if their voters see their sovereignty is to be further diluted...

[sophie]

I reckon the little French twerp, is anxious to have the French National Anthem adopted by the rest of Europe (at least that's the way he behaves) He must be swearing in his sleep to realise the Brits are not going to dance to his tune. NO WAY!!

[EnjoyingTheSun]

Well either way they misjudged the effect of throwing petrol on the fire... even though arch-federalists like Guy Verhofstadt are still determined to push with their dream of a super state there are plenty of member states' politicians who fear a backlash at the polls if their voters see their sovereignty is to be further diluted...

Verhofstadt is a non-entitity who is now only a step or two away from becoming a world statesman in his own mind. He was always going to overplay his hand.
If people feel their country is changing against their will by being an EU member and they have no voice in that then the option to leave is the only option.
The EU project has been very patient. If you block something it doesn't go away it gets popped on a shelf, repackaged and will come back. So even if Cameron had come back with a good deal the EU would have clawed it back eventually.

We threw in a lot of money it'll be interesting how keen some of the members will be when they have to pay more.

It is pretty clear that this is the will of the majority rightly or wrongly. What disgusts me is those who seem to want Britain to collapse into ruin because the vote didn't go their way.

[thornaby]

Bo Jo might come over as a baffoon but he is no traitor like Cammoron, May, and Blair!

[kibsolar1999]

still, it is interesting to see that a Nation which was working for centuries on a "superstate", eg
- the UK
- the empire, later "sort of downgraded" to
- the commomwhealth
can not find its position in an organisation which they chosed to be a member.
An organisation which realised (over the years) that "to fix some trade issues" is not sufficient, and, that "fixing some trade issues" means that you have to work (on the long run) on some "equality", like (proportional) representation (within the organisation), minority rights, environment, dumping, workers rights, justice/legal security, taxing, and so on.
otherwise the "thing with the trade" does not work properly.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

Bo Jo might come over as a baffoon but he is no traitor like Cammoron, May, and Blair!

TBF I think traitor might be a bit strong. I think they might genuinely feel Britain's best interests are to stay within the EU and they are entitled to that opinion but need to be aware that their job is to carry out the will of the people.
I've often had fundamental differences with certain politicians but generally have always felt that they had Britain's interests at heart. I had no time for Tony Benn but never thought that he wasn't patriotic, just misguided.
My problem with Corbyn was I don't think he did have Britain's interests at heart. I think he had left wing dogma as his sole priority and didn't actually care much for Britain.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

that "fixing some trade issues" means that you have to work (on the long run) on some "equality", like (proportional) representation (within the organisation), minority rights, environment, dumping, workers rights, justice/legal security, taxing, and so on.
otherwise the "thing with the trade" does not work properly.

I'm sure the first thing anyone does when intending to do business with a company or even going into a shop is question the firm on their diversity goals and carbon footprint. But back on planet Earth.....
Bureaucrats create bureaucracy, when you are a hammer everything is a nail.

As for bringing up the Empire and all that nonsense did you ever consider that had Hitler won that by now we would have an organisation very similar to the EU to oversee Europe, making sure we all did what we were told?
Long term he was never going to keep an army in 20 odd countries was he?

Yes Britain had an Empire. A lot of countries had Empires or tried to create them. It's history now.
The only country who has colonised since the Second World War was Russia

[kibsolar1999]

the old UK empire and Hitlers planned " 1000 year Reich" empire (but also the spanish, portuguese, dutch, belgian, russian, japanese.. aso) was maximum centralised, brutal and fascistic (and designed to lead as much money as possible into their own pockets).... and has nothing, nothing to do with the EU.
in many people minds the "lost empire case" is not history.... its reality.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

the old UK empire and Hitlers planned " 1000 year Reich" empire (but also the spanish, portuguese, dutch, belgian, russian, japanese.. aso) was maximum centralised, brutal and fascistic (and designed to lead as much money as possible into their own pockets).... and has nothing, nothing to do with the EU.
in many people minds the "lost empire case" is not history.... its reality.

Not sure what point you are making but every Empire or Colonisation evolves.
You might send in an army and brutalise the population to start but eventually you will remove the army or most of it and govern the ‘colony’ by being in charge of the courts, parliament, education etc etc.

You make the colony see that it’s interests align with your interests. It’s history is part of your history etc etc.
You can’t keep a colony by permanently brutalising it, you’ll never have the man power.
It might start violently but it evolves into a gentler but firm control as long as the colony plays along and does what it’s told.
Like I say had Hitler won Germany would be controlling Europe with an organisation like the EU. It wouldn’t have standing armies in 20 odd countries would it?

In 1970 Poland was still Poland. Had it’s own flag, language, government, courts, army, anthem etc etc. But at no point were they independent of Russia. They might be given a little latitude at certain points but if they deviated too much.....

[thornaby]

Enjoying the sun, sorry have to disagree, I think far to many people with Blair being a good example put their own interests and ambitions above that of the country .

[EnjoyingTheSun]

Enjoying the sun, sorry have to disagree, I think far to many people with Blair being a good example put their own interests and ambitions above that of the country .

I don't overlook that Blair always had his eye on the next job, be it a big wheel in the UN or the EU but I don't necessarily think he was anti British as such. May was totally out of her depth and over promoted and Cameron was a salesman. He had principles but if you didn't buy them he had others.
Corbyn I believe had little interest in Britain, his loyalties were always to dogma over country. Marxists obsession is to advance Marxism. That trumps nation, family and religion.

I do feel for the British politicians who will lose a way to top up their pension plan when we leave the EU.

[TAC]

I reckon the little French twerp, is anxious to have the French National Anthem adopted by the rest of Europe (at least that's the way he behaves) He must be swearing in his sleep to realise the Brits are not going to dance to his tune. NO WAY!!

Brits could turn back to cheddar if the price of French cheese shoots up after a no-deal Brexit.
Tesco's chairman John Allan told the BBC that tariffs could push up the price of brie by as much as 40%.
He said it might "change the mix of what people eat", leading to people buying more British cheddar.

[Medjoul1]

So we sent an Eton educated 'Benny Hill' to rescue the most important trade talks of modern times. The most untrustworthy man in the country who is more interested in protecting the interests of his chums than the future prosperity of the nation. Why any seasoned European politicians could be expected to take this buffoon seriously is baffling. He has lied to just about everybody from his employers, the queen, parliament and the public and shown the world that he is prepared to renege on any agreement with his 'Internal Market Bill'.
Still, the menu for his dinner with Ursula sounded very appetising, a starter of Scallops and the main, Turbot! Pity they didn't come with a country of origin.

[waddo]

Medjoul1, Don't you hold back now - tell it like it is!!!