Brit expats leaving Spain 'in droves'

[PoshinDevon]

It’s not just about U.K. citizens. It’s rules that apply to all non EU citizens.

I have no doubt that some U.K. citizens have decided that following Brexit it was all to “difficult” for them to remain in Spain. However; it would be good to understand the breakdown of numbers leaving in droves. How many of the leavers are those who have lived lawfully in Spain for years, how many are those that have lived lawfully in Spain but not yet 5 years and how many have lived in Spain, but never complied with the regulations?

That information would certainly help.

[waddo]

Erol, I do understand! Who was it that said on seeing the holocaust in Germany “Take pictures, in 50 years people will say this was all a lie”? In the same manner, you will never get a staunch Brexiter to say that what has happened since leaving the EU is, in retrospect, what was truly expected!

Posh, try as I do, there is no way I can equate the figures of expats leaving Spain to have any impact at all on what is happening in TRNC! Now please explain to me what it has to do with information the people who visit this site expect to find under the heading of North Cyprus Travel Guide?

[PoshinDevon]

Waddo- This is a forum to discuss topics and find information about a huge variety of things. Including of course Travel to the TRNC.

It’s a place where members can exchange ideas and discuss whatever they wish within reason. The original post was about those leaving Spain in there droves and importantly if this is happening then why?
There are of course differences of opinion.

For me I only compare it loosely to the TRNC when the announcement about changes to the residency process came into force. There was much wailing and of course the withdrawal of the “gentlemen’s agreement” was for many difficult. At the time many said that it was the last straw and said they would sell up and leave….. some did but many mellowed and did not.

Back to the topic and Spain, I have said I dislike sensationalism when it comes to news reporting. For me I want to dig under the headline and understand better why people are supposed to be leaving Spain.

I haven’t read any concrete reasons broken down by the status of those leaving. All I have heard is is it’s too difficult, costs to much or that word Brexit.

If you have lived lawfully in Spain for many years, why are you leaving? If you haven’t lived lawfully, why not and again why are you leaving?

I doubt any of us really know the true reasons.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

There are no figures apart from 360,000 living in Spain as at 2020. So how many are leaving, 100,000, 10,000, 10?
How many leave each year on average?
There is zero context to this story.
For all we know they could be climate change refugees because they are a thing now
I’m very interested in the story of the 72 year old pensioner who maybe separated from his Russian wife because she still holds an EU passport and he doesn’t. When did Russia join the EU?

[EnjoyingTheSun]

Erol, I do understand! Who was it that said on seeing the holocaust in Germany “Take pictures, in 50 years people will say this was all a lie”? In the same manner, you will never get a staunch Brexiter..........

I too understand.

When I heard that some might not be able to spend the usual 4 months wintering in their second home in Spain I immediately thought of those pictures of the Dachau concentration camp being liberated.
Nothing has shaken me since we heard the U.K. will withdraw from the Erasmus scheme and Tabatha would not be able to get her year doing media studies in Tuscany.
The parallels with Anne Frank were obvious to all but the most fascist Brexiteer.

[Geoff1131]

I don't think i am going to get an apology from erol!!!!! What i have heard from him though leads me to believe he would make an excellent Politian.

[kerry 6138]

Erol is a Belgian national moving to Spain to live, work or retire, subject to the same conditions has a Scot moving to Wales to do the same?

[erol]

.... leads me to believe he would make an excellent Politian.

Believing that if you make something harder less people will do it as a result of it being harder is no more a political belief for me than believing that water will run downhill and not up left to its own devices.

Seems to me that those who propose and argue that water is running uphill are the ones making a political choice.

[erol]

Erol is a Belgian national moving to Spain to live, work or retire, subject to the same conditions has a Scot moving to Wales to do the same?

No. I was wrong on that.

Kerry is a Belgian national moving to Spain to live, work or retire, subject to the same conditions as Scot moving to Spain to do the same ? The same as they were for the Scot pre Brexit ?

[kerry 6138]

Erol is a Belgian national moving to Spain to live, work or retire, subject to the same conditions has a Scot moving to Wales to do the same?

No. I was wrong on that.

Kerry is a Belgian national moving to Spain to live, work or retire, subject to the same conditions as Scot moving to Spain to do the same ? The same as they were for the Scot pre Brexit ?

No post Brexit obviously things changed.
Belgian shows ID card, Scot shows passport, stops 3 months

Belgian registers, has comprehensive insurance, evidence of income / work gets to stay, years later apply for permanent residence.

Scot apply for required visa, has insurance, registers etc.

Is the unemployed Greek anymore welcome than a out of work Welshman by virtue of his country's membership?

[Geoff1131]

kerry 6138, ' is the unemployed Greek anymore welcome than an out of work Welshman by virtue of his countries membership???? great question and this is what all the fuss has been about from our friend erol. He keeps saying that because of Brexit the rules mean that people from the UK are being treated differently and so are disadvantaged. But the printed rules for entry into Spain for EVERYONE contradict his thinking but i dont think he will ever accept this.

[erol]

kerry 6138, ' is the unemployed Greek anymore welcome than an out of work Welshman by virtue of his countries membership???? great question and this is what all the fuss has been about from our friend erol. He keeps saying that because of Brexit the rules mean that people from the UK are being treated differently and so are disadvantaged. But the printed rules for entry into Spain for EVERYONE contradict his thinking but i dont think he will ever accept this.

Because of Brexit UK citizens that want to live in EU countries ARE treated differently to EU citizens that want to do so and from how UK citizens were treated before Brexit.

It seems you are the one that refuses to accept this ?

Geoff - has Brexit made it any harder for EU citizens that want to come and live in the UK ? yes or no ? Has it made it harder for UK citizens that want to live and work in EU countries ? yes /or no ?

It seems you want to believe that it has made it harder for EU citizens that want to live in the UK but not harder for UK citizens that want to live in the EU. The epitome of a cake and eat it fantasy perspective imo.

[erol]

make something harder and less will do it

This is a generic reality.

Make migration in to UK from EU harder then less will migrate as a result.
Make immigration from the UK to EU countries harder then less will immigrate as a result.

Make trade between the UK and EU harder then there will be less trade between them as a result.

------------

This will just go on and on and on. Every time there is any evidence that the number of UK citizens choosing to live in EU countries is reducing, or any evidence that trade between the UK and EU is reducing the usual suspects will come out with a thousands reasons why the reduction is not real or if it is it is nothing to do with Brexit.

yet make something harder and less will do it.

This then I think is how 'discussion' about these things in places like this will now go. Sensible discussion about has the volume from the new trade opportunities for the UK matched that lost with the EU, will not happen. They can not happen in the face of an inevitable starting insistence from the usual suspects that making it harder to trade between the EU and UK has not led to ANY reduction in volumes.

I expect a generation of this. In the end whatever you chose to believe water does not and will not run uphill.

I admit it was a pretty vain hope that sensible discussion might somehow be possible after the fact in a way it was not before it.

[PoshinDevon]

Erol….

Of course making things harder may well result in less doing it.

However; instead of the just taking things at face value when reading the headline “Brit expats leaving Spain in droves”, why not challenge that statement and ask why?

If we all just accepted what we read then there would be little discussion or debate.

I want to know the reasons “why” it’s harder? What are the numbers leaving? Have they lived in Spain for a long time but changes to regulations have made them decide to leave?

Harder is not an answer as far as I am concerned.

[erol]

Erol….

Of course making things harder may well result in less doing it.

However; instead of the just taking things at face value when reading the headline “Brit expats leaving Spain in droves”, why not challenge that statement and ask why?

I saw headlines that translated to me, without even reading the articles, as 'some evidence numbers of UK citizens choosing to live in Spain is falling' and my reaction was meh, and duh and quelle surprise. As waddo said earlier 'who cares'. I chose to enter the thread not because of the reports but because of the reaction to them here. Try going back and reading it again up to the point I entered the discussion. Waz excepted was there any acceptance from anyone before that point that if you make something harder then less people will do it ? Or was it entirely arguments that it has not been made harder or it has not made any difference to numbers. I do not think you can have a sensible discussion about the detail of what maybe going on with a starting point that ignores and denies that if you make something harder less will do it. With an acceptance of that, then maybe you can get some value from such a discussion but not without it.

I want to know the reasons “why” it’s harder? What are the numbers leaving? Have they lived in Spain for a long time but changes to regulations have made them decide to leave?

Harder is not an answer as far as I am concerned.

Sure and you seem to have accepted, post my joining the thread at least, that by making it harder that will have had some negative impact on numbers. However the 'bulk' of the discussion as I see it is still around trying to believe 'its not made it any harder' or 'its not made any difference'. Whilst that is the case I see little point in going in to 'detail'.


and going off on a total tangent if you do not approve of the media using sensationalist expressions like 'leaving in droves' maybe try to not do yourself what you criticise the media for doing ?

[EnjoyingTheSun]

The view from most people is what are the numbers that makes it droves eg how many are really leaving.

Yes the U.K. citizens there are now not covered by the EU rules but are the changes really that onerous and enough to make you leave. Most on this forum have moved to a country that is not in the EU.

On the other side we have remoaners who will never accept their vote didn’t win. Maybe they should be renamed narcissists. They don’t care whether the story is accurate or not. There is no such thing as fake news if it is anti Brexit.

Erol just wants completely open borders because he wants nation states to be undermined and disappear.
He will deny this of course but he will battle against anything that stops open borders

[kibsolar1999]

eg,
I, EU citizen, german, want to work as a waiter (just for fun) in a restaurant in Barcelona.
or as a, non spanish speaking, butcher.
or as a lorry driver.

i goto a police station, show them my passport and my rental agreement. i will get a "foreigners registration number". my employee did register me with the spanish health insurance system, i will get a "spanish health card". thats it.
after 5 years i will get permanent residence automatically.

as a non working pensioneer i want to change my permanent residence to spain (if i still have a home in germany i do not necessarily need to do that....its a bit complicated...): i goto the police station, show my passport, my rental contract. i will get a "foreigners registration number".
usually germans who get a pension are also health insured in germany, which I show in "health departement" as well. I will get a spanish health card. thats it.
after 5 years i will get permanent residence automatically

posh, you said it... many UK people have been "under the radar" and "now have to face consequences". exactly.
before brexit, when a UK citzens was in "breach" of the official EU residents requirements, there were no consequences.
nobody did and does really care of a EU citizen staying 205 days instead of 183 days a year, or went 8 times forward backwards and it came, at the end, in one year or the other, to 250 days.....
the one or other smaller prob? can be solved. dentist? you need to pay in spain anyway... bigger prob?, fly back and consult your (NHS) doctor.
easy come, easy stay, easy home. free movement. just pay your bills.

its all those UK citizens who have problems NOW, after Brexit, as you agreed..
and these are big numbers.
all others, the ones which moved officially before, of course, have no big probs at all or may even applied for (EU) spanish citizenship.
this numbers also goes into the thousands. (eg germany alone 2016 - 2020: 40.000)

if you dont like the term "leave", then think about "not going any more". and thats because of Brexit.

[Geoff1131]

kibsolar 1999, you seem to have hit the nail on the head. Only those Brits living in Spain that were, or are still living under the radar and maybe even cheating Spain by not only living there without the proper documentation, they are probably working illegally as well. So the Spanish authorities have made sure these people are not welcome. But they also say that EU citizens who also want to cheat the country are also not welcome. If that is solely down to Brexit, then i am sure that the majority of Spanish people are grateful to the UK for getting rid of the leaches.

[kerry 6138]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/56846637
It is now clear that far more EU citizens have been living in the country than previous estimates suggested.

As of 31 May, the government had received 5.6 million applications for the post-Brexit scheme that allows EU (and EEA) nationals to continue living and working in the UK after the end of this month.

That is far higher than the official estimate when the scheme was fully opened in March 2019 that there were 3.7 million (non-Irish) EU nationals in the country.

[kibsolar1999]

kibsolar 1999, you seem to have hit the nail on the head. Only those Brits living in Spain that were, or are still living under the radar and maybe even cheating Spain by not only living there without the proper documentation, they are probably working illegally as well. So the Spanish authorities have made sure these people are not welcome. But they also say that EU citizens who also want to cheat the country are also not welcome. If that is solely down to Brexit, then i am sure that the majority of Spanish people are grateful to the UK for getting rid of the leaches.

well, it is everywhere illegal to work without a permit, or? but, compare to the numbers of Marocanians these numbers of EU or UK illegal workers are irrelevant, taking also in consideration the fact that nobody from EU or UK wants to work for three or five euro an hr.
but of course... there are always expats who offer the one or the other hand , eg, do some garden / (tech) maintenance work for the neighbour, or?

this, actually, is much better to be done (better hidden, better covered) when you have a (permanent) residency, although, eg, pensioneers are not permitted to work at all. a 100 or 200 quit a month is nice.. and it is not that boring any more.. something to do...

[EnjoyingTheSun]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/56846637
It is now clear that far more EU citizens have been living in the country than previous estimates suggested.

As of 31 May, the government had received 5.6 million applications for the post-Brexit scheme that allows EU (and EEA) nationals to continue living and working in the UK after the end of this month.

That is far higher than the official estimate when the scheme was fully opened in March 2019 that there were 3.7 million (non-Irish) EU nationals in the country.

The figures have been manipaulated?
Who'd have thought?
What a shock!

[erol]

Erol just wants completely open borders because he wants nation states to be undermined and disappear. He will deny this of course but he will battle against anything that stops open borders

As ever if you want to tell me and everyone else what it is I think and why and what I really want but will not be honest about and then go and 'destroy' this fiction you yourself have created, and enjoy the feeling of having 'crushed' your opponents argument then go right ahead. You do not need my participation to do such. Personally I lost interest long ago.

[PoshinDevon]

Erol….

Of course making things harder may well result in less doing it.

However; instead of the just taking things at face value when reading the headline “Brit expats leaving Spain in droves”, why not challenge that statement and ask why?

I saw headlines that translated to me, without even reading the articles, as 'some evidence numbers of UK citizens choosing to live in Spain is falling' and my reaction was meh, and duh and quelle surprise. As waddo said earlier 'who cares'. I chose to enter the thread not because of the reports but because of the reaction to them here. Try going back and reading it again up to the point I entered the discussion. Waz excepted was there any acceptance from anyone before that point that if you make something harder then less people will do it ? Or was it entirely arguments that it has not been made harder or it has not made any difference to numbers. I do not think you can have a sensible discussion about the detail of what maybe going on with a starting point that ignores and denies that if you make something harder less will do it. With an acceptance of that, then maybe you can get some value from such a discussion but not without it.

I want to know the reasons “why” it’s harder? What are the numbers leaving? Have they lived in Spain for a long time but changes to regulations have made them decide to leave?

Harder is not an answer as far as I am concerned.

Sure and you seem to have accepted, post my joining the thread at least, that by making it harder that will have had some negative impact on numbers. However the 'bulk' of the discussion as I see it is still around trying to believe 'its not made it any harder' or 'its not made any difference'. Whilst that is the case I see little point in going in to 'detail'.


and going off on a total tangent if you do not approve of the media using sensationalist expressions like 'leaving in droves' maybe try to not do yourself what you criticise the media for doing ?

Erol….

I did not start the topic or gave it a title.

We won’t agree but this is the start point. You made reference that ex pats are leaving because it’s harder. Then really left it a that. I want to know more and the underlying reasons for leaving…. not just because it’s harder.

Not that it matters but the sensationalist expression is in the topic title. I have pointed out that I do not like this type of reporting as it’s just there for the masses to devour. If ex pats are leaving in droves as is claimed then let’s see the evidence and reasons. I have quoted it because it’s there to be discussed. Some vague references to it being harder is not enough for me.

To be honest I would have thought you would want to dig deeper into the reasons, rather than keep saying it’s because it’s harder.

[PoshinDevon]

eg,
I, EU citizen, german, want to work as a waiter (just for fun) in a restaurant in Barcelona.
or as a, non spanish speaking, butcher.
or as a lorry driver.

i goto a police station, show them my passport and my rental agreement. i will get a "foreigners registration number". my employee did register me with the spanish health insurance system, i will get a "spanish health card". thats it.
after 5 years i will get permanent residence automatically.

as a non working pensioneer i want to change my permanent residence to spain (if i still have a home in germany i do not necessarily need to do that....its a bit complicated...): i goto the police station, show my passport, my rental contract. i will get a "foreigners registration number".
usually germans who get a pension are also health insured in germany, which I show in "health departement" as well. I will get a spanish health card. thats it.
after 5 years i will get permanent residence automatically

posh, you said it... many UK people have been "under the radar" and "now have to face consequences". exactly.
before brexit, when a UK citzens was in "breach" of the official EU residents requirements, there were no consequences.
nobody did and does really care of a EU citizen staying 205 days instead of 183 days a year, or went 8 times forward backwards and it came, at the end, in one year or the other, to 250 days.....
the one or other smaller prob? can be solved. dentist? you need to pay in spain anyway... bigger prob?, fly back and consult your (NHS) doctor.
easy come, easy stay, easy home. free movement. just pay your bills.

its all those UK citizens who have problems NOW, after Brexit, as you agreed..
and these are big numbers.
all others, the ones which moved officially before, of course, have no big probs at all or may even applied for (EU) spanish citizenship.
this numbers also goes into the thousands. (eg germany alone 2016 - 2020: 40.000)

if you dont like the term "leave", then think about "not going any more". and thats because of Brexit.

I see the topic to be about those who have lived, worked and retired to Spain and are now leaving. That’s what I am interested in. How many and for what reasons . Apparently it’s because it is “harder” to stay.

I have no interest in those “not going anymore” because that is not what the subject of this topic is about.

[waz-24-7]

It’s Spain that have set the rules in place, especially around the amount of money/savings required to live there. They set these amounts to ensure those wishing to remain, live, work or retire in Spain have sufficient funds to support themselves and not be a burden on the state. Many countries do the same.

I am not convinced about the “leaving in droves” nor that people have been “ejected”. Would need to see evidence of this. Some will have left for health reasons or the cost of health insurance. However; there is no doubt that many have been living “under the radar” and are now facing the consequences.

Let’s be realistic please
Since 1970,s it has been easy, affordable and attractive to move to ,in this instance, Spain.
10s of thousands of Uk ex pats have made that move.
Even more took advantage of the ‘European’ status and the clear advantages that gave them in terms of work, tax , healthcare and general freedom.
The privileges and advantages have been forfeited and that is a driving force to leave.

It really is not that difficult to comprehend.
Research and evidence is certainly one way to verify but frankly if you find yourself in a down turn and loss situation you usually change tack.

[Hector]

OK, so my wife and I are 'swallows who own a property in NC. We also own a car. We have. over the years, spent a lot of money in NC whilst enjoying our visits. Fine. Now, however, we are restricted in the time we can spend in NC and it now appears that we can't drive our car either. Game over.

[d1cxx]

Same situation as myself, and my wife. I feel that there are too many hoops to jump through. The plan was to relax for periods, not to spend our time chasing around getting licences, and residency, I can understand if someone stays their permanently that it has to be done, but I now am asking the question, " Is it worth it"

[PoshinDevon]

It’s Spain that have set the rules in place, especially around the amount of money/savings required to live there. They set these amounts to ensure those wishing to remain, live, work or retire in Spain have sufficient funds to support themselves and not be a burden on the state. Many countries do the same.

I am not convinced about the “leaving in droves” nor that people have been “ejected”. Would need to see evidence of this. Some will have left for health reasons or the cost of health insurance. However; there is no doubt that many have been living “under the radar” and are now facing the consequences.

Let’s be realistic please
Since 1970,s it has been easy, affordable and attractive to move to ,in this instance, Spain.
10s of thousands of Uk ex pats have made that move.
Even more took advantage of the ‘European’ status and the clear advantages that gave them in terms of work, tax , healthcare and general freedom.
The privileges and advantages have been forfeited and that is a driving force to leave.

It really is not that difficult to comprehend.
Research and evidence is certainly one way to verify but frankly if you find yourself in a down turn and loss situation you usually change tack.

You really don’t get it.

The U.K. has left the EU. Therefore anyone who thought that things would remain the same are frankly deluded.

This is the result of a referendum which the result was to leave the EU.

Now the crux is, why are people leaving? What is the real reason?

Is it because things are more difficult or is it because some have never really complied with the regulations and are now being found out,

Give me the numbers and evidence

[waz-24-7]

Sorry I’m afraid you don’t get it.
I’ll leave you to research and determine why.
In my mind and having worked and employed in Spain past 10 yrs.
There is no doubt whatsoever in my mind.
I certainly agree that there are many deluded folk that really thought nothing would change. Bar exclusion of immigration.

I think you are kidding yourself that Brexit issues in Cyprus , Spain and other European countries are for some other mysterious unknown. Let’s wait and see and wait for the evidence just doesn’t wash.

I am well aware of the referendum result of 2016.
It is looking forward and dealing with the clear aftermath that is now the challenge.

[PoshinDevon]

Sorry I’m afraid ypu don’t get it.
I’ll leave you to research and determine why.
In my mind and having worked snd employed in Spain.
There is no doubt whatsoever in my mind.

I think you are kidding yourself that Brexit issues in Cyprus , Spain and other European countries are for some other mysterious unknown. Let’s wait snd see and see the evidence just doesn’t wash.

I am well aware of the referendum result of 2016.
It is looking forward and dealing with the clear aftermath that is now the challenge.

Again I ask a few very simple questions around the topic of “leaving Spain in droves”. You seem so very convinced you have the facts so please enlighten me, I want to know.

Please provide figures and evidence.

How many have left?

What were the reasons for leaving?

How long had they lived in Spain?

What % of these leaving in droves had actually applied to be legally resident in Spain?

Just saying “leaving in droves”, or thrown out of the country is not evidence.

[waz-24-7]

Oh dear
My experience indicates that the new difficulties of residency, work permits and visas now required by UK citizens in EU countries is proving far too expensive and difficult. Much like it is in Cyprus.
It’s quite easy to understand why the opening post referred to the departures in ‘droves’
If you cannot accept that then please do secure any information and please do share it.
We have forfeited so many rights and privileges and the UK to EU traveller is in my view 3rd class.
Having just returned from Cyprus I have experienced it.
At Larnaca for example my luggage was searched upon entering the ROC. 1st time in 20yrs!!
Whilst you clearly remain in denial.
Could you or indeed anyone please inform me of any positives that I can now enjoy going forward as a 3rd class EU traveller.

[jofra]

.....then please do secure any information and please do share it....

Is this (i.e. facts) not what you have been repeatedly asked to do?

[waz-24-7]

As the original opening post stated the fact. I can only offer agreement as I have experienced and witnessed the said exodus.
Are there any other reasons that have a better level of credibility?
My guess that in time a report upon how Brexit has impacted emigration and residence in the EU.
I also guess that the original poster will be proven correct.

[PoshinDevon]

As the original opening post stated the fact. I can only offer agreement as I have experienced and witnessed the said exodus.
Are there any other reasons that have a better level of credibility?
My guess that in time a report upon how Brexit has impacted emigration and residence in the EU.
I also guess that the original poster will be proven correct.

All I can read that everything is “your experience”. For some reason you also mention suitcases having been searched at Larnaca airport and being a 3rd class Euro traveller. I know not why.

Despite asking for facts so we can have sensible debate, there are none forthcoming.

When you have some facts please return to the topic again and we can discuss.

[erol]

The U.K. has left the EU. Therefore anyone who thought that things would remain the same are frankly deluded.

This thread is full of Brexit zealots saying just that even after the fact. Saying that brexit has made little or no real difference at all to UK citizens wanting to live in EU countries. That It is has only affected those that were living in Spain or other EU countries as EU citizens that did not 'follow the rules'. That the requirements on a UK citizen wanting to live in Spain post Brexit are no different from an EU citizen that wants to do so. And and and. It is the dominant narrative running through this entire thread. They do this because for them nothing negative can be or ever will be attributed to brexit as a matter of pure faith alone and so they end up jumping through hoop after hoop to deny plain and simple reality. This is what I consider Brexit zealotry and it will clearly continue for at least a generation, though the backlash to that will probably be severe once that generation finally passes away.

The simple plain reality is that before the UK joined the EU less UK citizens chose to live in other EU countries than after because it was harder to do so then when we were not in the EU. When we joined the EU more UK citizens chose to live in other EU countries because doing so was then easier for them than before we joined. Now we have left and it is once again harder for UK citizens to live in EU countries the numbers are declining again. It is not rocket science. Yet the demands of Brexit zealotry require this all be denied, so it is denied in one way or another by such zealots.

Now the crux is, why are people leaving? What is the real reason?

Less UK citizens are choosing to live in EU countries post Brexit because doing so post Brexit is harder than it was before we left.

Is it because things are more difficult or is it because some have never really complied with the regulations and are now being found out,

Before Brexit UK citizens could live in Spain and chose to ignore all sorts of requirements without that leading to them being expelled from Spain. Pretty much like moving from England to wales and then not registering with local welsh council for poll tax does not result in them being expelled from Wales. Post Brexit they can no longer do this, resulting in some choosing to now follow those rules that before did not stop them living in Spain so they can stay and some choosing to leave instead. Meaning total number decline.

Before Brexit there will have been UK citizens living in Spain and following ALL the requirements then who now can not meet the NEW and MORE ONEROUS requirements post Brexit , like minimum demonstrable income and thus now HAVE to leave. People for whom pre Brexit it was possible to live and Spain and now post Brexit it is impossible. Still let's just ignore those because they do not fit the narrative or just lie and try and make out the requirements have not changed for such people and the requirements on them are no different than those on say a German citizen wishing to live in Spain. We have seen people doing this in this thread.

Give me the numbers and evidence

With respect Posh it does not feel to me like you want the numbers and evidence as much as you just want a way to believe Brexit is not the cause of less UK citizens choosing to live in EU countries. You want this despite the plain and simple reality - make something harder for people, significantly harder for some and at the extreme end of the spectrum impossible for some when before it was possible and there is only one possible outcome. An outcome that zealotry demands must be denied , ignored or distracted from.

Make it harder for UK citizens to live in EU countries and less will do so compared with when it was easier. Water will not run uphill.
Make it harder to trade between the UK and EU and there will be less trade as a result compared with when it was easier. Water will not run uphill.

When numbers of UK citizens living in EU countries drops because of Brexit, the zealots can and will come out and deny this reality and find a thousand reasons to claim the numbers are not dropping or that if they are dropping it is not because of Brexit. We can see that here in this very thread. When the same happens with UK / EU trade volumes, as they must as a consequence of making trade between them harder, we will see exactly the same thing from exactly the same people.

It is not rocket science. It has never been rocket science.

[Hector]

I spoke to a friend who lives in Pathos yesterday. He had family visiting just over a week ago who flew from the UK to Paphos. Once they landed 3 other planes followed behind. Those planes had flown from EU countries. His family & fellow passengers were held on board until the 3 other planes had disembarked so they were behind them in the immigration hall. It took them 1 1/2 hours to get through. Just saying...

[PoshinDevon]

The U.K. has left the EU. Therefore anyone who thought that things would remain the same are frankly deluded.

This thread is full of Brexit zealots saying just that even after the fact. Saying that brexit has made little or no real difference at all to UK citizens wanting to live in EU countries. That It is has only affected those that were living in Spain or other EU countries as EU citizens that did not 'follow the rules'. That the requirements on a UK citizen wanting to live in Spain post Brexit are no different from an EU citizen that wants to do so. And and and. It is the dominant narrative running through this entire thread. They do this because for them nothing negative can be or ever will be attributed to brexit as a matter of pure faith alone and so they end up jumping through hoop after hoop to deny plain and simple reality. This is what I consider Brexit zealotry and it will clearly continue for at least a generation, though the backlash to that will probably be severe once that generation finally passes away.

The simple plain reality is that before the UK joined the EU less UK citizens chose to live in other EU countries than after because it was harder to do so then when we were not in the EU. When we joined the EU more UK citizens chose to live in other EU countries because doing so was then easier for them than before we joined. Now we have left and it is once again harder for UK citizens to live in EU countries the numbers are declining again. It is not rocket science. Yet the demands of Brexit zealotry require this all be denied, so it is denied in one way or another by such zealots.

Now the crux is, why are people leaving? What is the real reason?

Less UK citizens are choosing to live in EU countries post Brexit because doing so post Brexit is harder than it was before we left.

Is it because things are more difficult or is it because some have never really complied with the regulations and are now being found out,

Before Brexit UK citizens could live in Spain and chose to ignore all sorts of requirements without that leading to them being expelled from Spain. Pretty much like moving from England to wales and then not registering with local welsh council for poll tax does not result in them being expelled from Wales. Post Brexit they can no longer do this, resulting in some choosing to now follow those rules that before did not stop them living in Spain so they can stay and some choosing to leave instead. Meaning total number decline.

Before Brexit there will have been UK citizens living in Spain and following ALL the requirements then who now can not meet the NEW and MORE ONEROUS requirements post Brexit , like minimum demonstrable income and thus now HAVE to leave. People for whom pre Brexit it was possible to live and Spain and now post Brexit it is impossible. Still let's just ignore those because they do not fit the narrative or just lie and try and make out the requirements have not changed for such people and the requirements on them are no different than those on say a German citizen wishing to live in Spain. We have seen people doing this in this thread.

Give me the numbers and evidence

With respect Posh it does not feel to me like you want the numbers and evidence as much as you just want a way to believe Brexit is not the cause of less UK citizens choosing to live in EU countries. You want this despite the plain and simple reality - make something harder for people, significantly harder for some and at the extreme end of the spectrum impossible for some when before it was possible and there is only one possible outcome. An outcome that zealotry demands must be denied , ignored or distracted from.

Make it harder for UK citizens to live in EU countries and less will do so compared with when it was easier. Water will not run uphill.
Make it harder to trade between the UK and EU and there will be less trade as a result compared with when it was easier. Water will not run uphill.

When numbers of UK citizens living in EU countries drops because of Brexit, the zealots can and will come out and deny this reality and find a thousand reasons to claim the numbers are not dropping or that if they are dropping it is not because of Brexit. We can see that here in this very thread. When the same happens with UK / EU trade volumes, as they must as a consequence of making trade between them harder, we will see exactly the same thing from exactly the same people.

It is not rocket science. It has never been rocket science.

With respect to you Erol, this topic is about British expats leaving Spain in droves. I have briefly pointed out that as the UK has left the EU means the rules will of course change.

What I have consistently said is why are Brit expats leaving in droves? I have asked why and tried to get to the bottom of the figures and the real reasons, rather than swallowing any headline grabbing statements. Something which I have thought you of all people would be interested in. You can think what you like, but I can assure you I am not a Brexit zealot and biased due to Brexit. I really do want to understand the real reasons.

Saying it’s just more difficult is not evidence. In your words it’s not rocket science, so let’s discuss/debate based on detail and evidence.

Until then I will leave it to you and Waz to keep saying it’s more difficult and that he doesn’t agree with having his suitcase searched!

[PoshinDevon]

I spoke to a friend who lives in Pathos yesterday. He had family visiting just over a week ago who flew from the UK to Paphos. Once they landed 3 other planes followed behind. Those planes had flown from EU countries. His family & fellow passengers were held on board until the 3 other planes had disembarked so they were behind them in the immigration hall. It took them 1 1/2 hours to get through. Just saying...

Thanks for this.

So why are British expats leaving Spain in droves?

Is it because they are delayed because of checks when arriving in an EU country?

[ginge]

I spoke to a friend who lives in Pathos yesterday. He had family visiting just over a week ago who flew from the UK to Paphos. Once they landed 3 other planes followed behind. Those planes had flown from EU countries. His family & fellow passengers were held on board until the 3 other planes had disembarked so they were behind them in the immigration hall. It took them 1 1/2 hours to get through. Just saying...

I landed at Larnaca on 30th Oct at 2.30pm and was in my taxi at 2.50pm including collecting luggage.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

This is what I consider Brexit zealotry

But you will always remain silent on remainer ’zealotry’ won’t you?
I cannot remember you ever picking up on ANY of Waz’s more outlandish claims.
I guess it keeps your hands clean.
You can stand back and Let Waz push a narrative you support with ‘facts’ that you know won’t bear scrutiny and see if Waz gets shot down and simply say it’s his words not mine.
This ‘I’m just interested in the facts and above all the arguments nonsense’ persona you try to push is just smoke and mirrors isn’t it?

[EnjoyingTheSun]

At Larnaca for example my luggage was searched upon entering the ROC. 1st time in 20yrs!!

That would include 5 years after we voted to leave I assume?
So the EU isn’t in favour of basic airport security, if you have an EU passport you will be waved through as a matter of course?
No spot checks?
That’s reassuring.
What sort of passports did the July 7 bombers have?
I’m guessing EU passports?

[waz-24-7]

The U.K. has left the EU. Therefore anyone who thought that things would remain the same are frankly deluded.

This thread is full of Brexit zealots saying just that even after the fact. Saying that brexit has made little or no real difference at all to UK citizens wanting to live in EU countries. That It is has only affected those that were living in Spain or other EU countries as EU citizens that did not 'follow the rules'. That the requirements on a UK citizen wanting to live in Spain post Brexit are no different from an EU citizen that wants to do so. And and and. It is the dominant narrative running through this entire thread. They do this because for them nothing negative can be or ever will be attributed to brexit as a matter of pure faith alone and so they end up jumping through hoop after hoop to deny plain and simple reality. This is what I consider Brexit zealotry and it will clearly continue for at least a generation, though the backlash to that will probably be severe once that generation finally passes away.

The simple plain reality is that before the UK joined the EU less UK citizens chose to live in other EU countries than after because it was harder to do so then when we were not in the EU. When we joined the EU more UK citizens chose to live in other EU countries because doing so was then easier for them than before we joined. Now we have left and it is once again harder for UK citizens to live in EU countries the numbers are declining again. It is not rocket science. Yet the demands of Brexit zealotry require this all be denied, so it is denied in one way or another by such zealots.

Now the crux is, why are people leaving? What is the real reason?

Less UK citizens are choosing to live in EU countries post Brexit because doing so post Brexit is harder than it was before we left.

Is it because things are more difficult or is it because some have never really complied with the regulations and are now being found out,

Before Brexit UK citizens could live in Spain and chose to ignore all sorts of requirements without that leading to them being expelled from Spain. Pretty much like moving from England to wales and then not registering with local welsh council for poll tax does not result in them being expelled from Wales. Post Brexit they can no longer do this, resulting in some choosing to now follow those rules that before did not stop them living in Spain so they can stay and some choosing to leave instead. Meaning total number decline.

Before Brexit there will have been UK citizens living in Spain and following ALL the requirements then who now can not meet the NEW and MORE ONEROUS requirements post Brexit , like minimum demonstrable income and thus now HAVE to leave. People for whom pre Brexit it was possible to live and Spain and now post Brexit it is impossible. Still let's just ignore those because they do not fit the narrative or just lie and try and make out the requirements have not changed for such people and the requirements on them are no different than those on say a German citizen wishing to live in Spain. We have seen people doing this in this thread.

Give me the numbers and evidence

With respect Posh it does not feel to me like you want the numbers and evidence as much as you just want a way to believe Brexit is not the cause of less UK citizens choosing to live in EU countries. You want this despite the plain and simple reality - make something harder for people, significantly harder for some and at the extreme end of the spectrum impossible for some when before it was possible and there is only one possible outcome. An outcome that zealotry demands must be denied , ignored or distracted from.

Make it harder for UK citizens to live in EU countries and less will do so compared with when it was easier. Water will not run uphill.
Make it harder to trade between the UK and EU and there will be less trade as a result compared with when it was easier. Water will not run uphill.

When numbers of UK citizens living in EU countries drops because of Brexit, the zealots can and will come out and deny this reality and find a thousand reasons to claim the numbers are not dropping or that if they are dropping it is not because of Brexit. We can see that here in this very thread. When the same happens with UK / EU trade volumes, as they must as a consequence of making trade between them harder, we will see exactly the same thing from exactly the same people.

It is not rocket science. It has never been rocket science.

With respect to you Erol, this topic is about British expats leaving Spain in droves. I have briefly pointed out that as the UK has left the EU means the rules will of course change.

What I have consistently said is why are Brit expats leaving in droves? I have asked why and tried to get to the bottom of the figures and the real reasons, rather than swallowing any headline grabbing statements. Something which I have thought you of all people would be interested in. You can think what you like, but I can assure you I am not a Brexit zealot and biased due to Brexit. I really do want to understand the real reasons.

Saying it’s just more difficult is not evidence. In your words it’s not rocket science, so let’s discuss/debate based on detail and evidence.

Until then I will leave it to you and Waz to keep saying it’s more difficult and that he doesn’t agree with having his suitcase searched!

Posh,
Is the world flat or round?
Did man actually fly to the moon?

Are UK citizens leaving their EU citizen lives because they are no longer carry European passports. My view is that they are and certainly it appears that news reports of such happenings in Spain confirm this.
If you wish not to believe or indeed you wish to offer another reason or hypothesis then don't let me stop you.

You do appear to demand of me evidence of each and every statement I make. Do you likewise have reasoning upon why, since Brexit, the exodus is due to anything else. Something that has emerged since the divorce.

The Brexit outfall just keeps on coming and yes I certainly did identify many potential pitfalls including the Cyprus entry risks.
I agree that many many people did believe that it would be life as normal. I think strongly that some did not appreciate the freedoms that have been forfeited. The UK, in my opinion, has taken a massive step backwards. The recent G20 summit showed very clearly how the EU is the economy that the other major G7 world economies want to do business with. The UK is loosing position at pace. The Brexit government under Johnson is unable to get in on the action.

Now we have the COP 26 in Glasgow. This is an attempt by the UK to launch a PR exercise like no other in recent years.
Will it succeed? I hope so for many reasons.

I have no issue with suitcase search. I have identified from experience that as a non European. It is more difficult to travel to my Villa in the TRNC.
I base this on the new ( to me) protocols at Larnaca.

I think your position is one of denial that the negatives and losses to date directly from Brexit ; either do not exist, are false, or you simply cannot accept opinions that may actually be fact.

[waz-24-7]

At Larnaca for example my luggage was searched upon entering the ROC. 1st time in 20yrs!!

That would include 5 years after we voted to leave I assume?
So the EU isn’t in favour of basic airport security, if you have an EU passport you will be waved through as a matter of course?
No spot checks?
That’s reassuring.
What sort of passports did the July 7 bombers have?
I’m guessing EU passports?

Thank goodness we left the EU because we now apparently wont get any more terrorist attacks from EU passport holders at least. Did Mr Farage tell you that too.
Yes when I had my EU passport. I found it easier, quicker and certainly I felt more welcome and legally secure when transiting the ROC

I guess the Turkish citizen invasion that Mr Farage told us about on the Red bus is also stopped. I think it was 3,000000 that would invade us. Did you see posters?
The Turkish citizens that I expect you acquaint in Cyprus on a daily basis are thankfully held at bay from moving to your homeland.
I wonder their thoughts as you clearly live amongst the vey people that apparently threatened to invade your homeland?

[PoshinDevon]

Waz - I cannot make it clearer. Provide fact based evidence please. Back up the topic title of British ex pats leaving in droves with clear evidence and stop deflecting the question and rambling on about G20 summits, COP 26 and suitcase searches…. Which it seems is a real issue when you are travelling to the TRNC.

Whatever next?

[erol]

This is what I consider Brexit zealotry

But you will always remain silent on remainer ’zealotry’ won’t you?
I cannot remember you ever picking up on ANY of Waz’s more outlandish claims.
I guess it keeps your hands clean.
You can stand back and Let Waz push a narrative you support with ‘facts’ that you know won’t bear scrutiny and see if Waz gets shot down and simply say it’s his words not mine.
This ‘I’m just interested in the facts and above all the arguments nonsense’ persona you try to push is just smoke and mirrors isn’t it?

This tired old technique of yours of criticising what I do not say , what I have not done, bores me. Just con incidence that it avoids challenging me on what I do say and do.

The persona I push here is who I am. Stop judging me by your own standards.

I rarely comment on anything waz posts because I actually stopped reading his posts a long time ago. I am not waz. I think trains should run on time but I am not Hitler.

It is a fact that if you make something harder less people will do it. Imo the smoke and mirrors is arguing that you can make something harder but it only makes less foreigners do it but not less UK citizens. Brexit meant we can stop and limit and control how many EU citizens chose to live in the UK than staying in the EU because that was vitally crucial to have less such EU people but it has not affected at all how many UK citizens reside in the EU. That is the smoke and mirrors, cake and eat it argument.

[waz-24-7]

Waz - I cannot make it clearer. Provide fact based evidence please. Back up the topic title of British ex pats leaving in droves with clear evidence and stop deflecting the question and rambling on about G20 summits, COP 26 and suitcase searches…. Which it seems is a real issue when you are travelling to the TRNC.

Whatever next?

Okay
Please see the opening post that links
https://bit.ly/3a6iqti

Not a big fan of the tabloids but as you are a clear evidence seeker.
Perhaps you would like to provide fact based evidence that the Mirror report is wrong and should be ignored.

[Geoff1131]

Waz that is a fantastic article. well worth a read especially the comments section which goes a long way to uphold what some of the people on this thread have been saying, ie, the Brits who seem to be ' leaving in droves ' are the same Brits who have been living in Spain under the radar and they are leaving now due to being found out. The Brits who live there by the rules seem to be having no problems at all.

[erol]

What I have consistently said is why are Brit expats leaving in droves? I have asked why and tried to get to the bottom of the figures and the real reasons, rather than swallowing any headline grabbing statements. Something which I have thought you of all people would be interested in. You can think what you like, but I can assure you I am not a Brexit zealot and biased due to Brexit. I really do want to understand the real reasons.

Droves is 'their' word with them being 'the media'. I am not interested in the media hype. Pro hype, anti hype , any hype. I do not think it helps when the media uses such terms nor do I think it helps when individuals use them (over and over and over).

Saying it’s just more difficult is not evidence. In your words it’s not rocket science, so let’s discuss/debate based on detail and evidence.

The news article is about overall numbers. The reasons why any given UK citizen that was living in Spain chose to either continue living there or leave post Brexit are as varied as there are individual people. Some will chose to stay. Some will not. But overall less UK citizens will live in EU countries post Brexit because it is harder for them to do so than before it. No different to the changes that were made here. The individual reasons are legion and many layered and only make sense within the context of that individual and it is simply not possible to know every single case. Yet it seem to me this is what you keep asking for ?

Did Brexit mean the UK can and is making it harder for EU citizens to live in the UK leading to less EU citizens doing such ? Would you demand to see the 'evidence' behind a headline saying EU citizens are leaving the UK in whatever media hype word you choose and ask yes but why exactly are they leaving and is is really to do with Brexit and demand the 'evidence' before believing that the number of EU citizens is reducing because Brexit made it harder for them to stay ?

[waz-24-7]

Waz that is a fantastic article. well worth a read especially the comments section which goes a long way to uphold what some of the people on this thread have been saying, ie, the Brits who seem to be ' leaving in droves ' are the same Brits who have been living in Spain under the radar and they are leaving now due to being found out. The Brits who live there by the rules seem to be having no problems at all.

So in effect the Brexit outcome has led to an exodus.
We must accept that had there been no change to their EU status then those same people would remain .
The end result remains the same.

The article is correct to indicate that the exodus is a result of Brexit.
Certainly the new 3rd world status of UK citizens visiting the EU must now secure visas allowing limited stays.
I have experienced this very recently in the ROC. 30 days visa and stamped in my passport
The TRNC have also changed the visa rules. I was very accustomed to 90 days.
2 weeks ago it was 30 days. Is the TRNC now also on the bandwagon of limiting UK citizens visitation awards ?

[erol]

Waz that is a fantastic article. well worth a read especially the comments section which goes a long way to uphold what some of the people on this thread have been saying, ie, the Brits who seem to be ' leaving in droves ' are the same Brits who have been living in Spain under the radar and they are leaving now due to being found out. The Brits who live there by the rules seem to be having no problems at all.

Geoff - was too much uncontrolled immigration in to the UK by EU citizens a valid reason why the UK needed to leave the EU ? Does Brexit allow the UK to now reduce these numbers by making the rules harder or was the problem simply that too many EU citizens came and lived in the UK without following the old rules properly ? Would you be happy to have the old pre Brexit rules for who can come and live in the UK from the EU as long as everyone followed those old rules properly ? Or was being able to make new different and harder rules essential ?

Brexit has made it harder for EU citizens that want to live in the UK and low and behold less are now doing so as a result. Brexit has also made it harder for UK citizens to live in EU countries and low and behold less are doing so.

When the rules changed here there were some who had been living here for years, following the rules, who found they were then unable to follow the new rules when they changed, like demonstrable income levels changing. These people exist in the Spanish example post Brexit too. No I do not know exact numbers but such people do exist. Have to exist for if they do not then it really does mean there was no point in leaving the EU at all as far as immigration went. Maybe that is your argument and point and I have misunderstood you ? Somehow I suspect not.