Brit expats leaving Spain 'in droves'

[waddo]

Good Grief - I wonder what is happening in Spain these days??

[waz-24-7]

My opinion is that a UK exodus from EU countries is underway on the back of negatives created by the forfeit of EU passports. The numbers are not clear but without doubt it cannot be taken as a Brexit positive.

As you say the numbers aren’t clear so your opinion is really a total guess you hope will come true to spread a little more misery on the EU a unbelievers.

So some British people will either return to the U.K. or move to a country where they feel more comfortable?

So what?

Will that effect the UK greatly?
If people were living in Spain and their money was adding to the Spanish economy then I can see if being a negative if they leave in droves.
If they return it will help the U.K. economy and if they move to Turkey it will help the Turkish economy.

When I voted I was voting for the U.K.’s future and the future of my children and grandchildren not just what would make my life easier. I might have been right or wrong, time will tell, but that was why I voted to leave.

I can only guess that you didn't consult with your children or grandchildren. Possibly elders know best.
If you did I wonder their viewpoint going forwards as the world seeks out unions and co operation in a new era focused on saving our planet. For the good of all mankind and not just you.

Further more. I question why you have , presumably, left the UK to enjoy the sun. You clearly have little regard for the Ex pats in Spain.
My comment is not guess work. I take the media report in good faith and I have no reason to disbelieve it.
My guess is you will contest it because it refers to the matter as "a result of BREXIT"

So what is your reasoning ….Is it that after Brexit more UK citizens will go and live in France and Spain. My view is that there will be less because it is more difficult to do that.

[waz-24-7]

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/r ... 58756.html

The Evening Standard appears to have picked up the story.
Is it time that the reports are taken in good faith and reports are correct?

[waz-24-7]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55617849
and the BBC

[EnjoyingTheSun]

I can only guess that you didn't consult with your children or grandchildren. Possibly elders know best.
If you did I wonder their viewpoint going forwards as the world seeks out unions and co operation in a new era focused on saving our planet. For the good of all mankind and not just you.

You only ever guess Waz.
Did I consult them on my vote?
No
Do elders know best?
Not always but I know if I consulted them what they wanted for their dinner each evening when they were growing up they would have invariably chosen crisps and ice cream so sometimes you do make choices for them in their interest. It's called being a grown up. One day when you do you might learn that.

Further more. I question why you have , presumably, left the UK to enjoy the sun. You clearly have little regard for the Ex pats in Spain.

I left because I thought it would be a better choice for my retirement. That said I still have a lot of links in the UK so have an interest in its welfare.
When voting in a referendum or general election you vote for what you think will benefit the country as a whole.
The chances of every single person benefiting from every single change is a pipe dream so the majority vote for the benefit of the majority.
That;s how democracy works.
How far do you want to go with this argument that Tabatha will miss out on her gap year in Tuscany or a couple might have to cut short their winter vacation in their holiday home short?

You however seem to have nothing but your own interests at heart.
I could imagine you hiring labour from a concentration camp and compliaining when it was liberated "have the allies given any thought at all to me and the other factory owners about our wage bill which is now going to spiral out of control?"

I take the media report in good faith and I have no reason to disbelieve it.

OK here's another media report which I assume as it is in a paper you will take in good faith without question?


https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brit ... -kmhgsntsn

[EnjoyingTheSun]

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/r ... 58756.html

The Evening Standard appears to have picked up the story.
Is it time that the reports are taken in good faith and reports are correct?

Picked up the story, investigated it and put figures in to flesh it out?

No they've nicked the story from another paper and repeated it.
Not surprising as it was printed the day after the original story quoted.

Happens all the time,
This may be a shock but here's an example of how it works.
A newspaper will lock away the wife off a serial killer in a hotel and pay for an exclusive.
The other papers who do not have access to the person will read the paper's story and mix it up a bit and print it as if they have interviewed the serial killer's wife themsleves.

So it is the same story not a confirmation of the facts of the original story.
If you like you can pick a story out at random in today's paper and I can do it for you with my intrepid investigative reporting that doesn't involve me leaving my chair.

1 out of 10 must try harder

[EnjoyingTheSun]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55617849
and the BBC

The BBC has picked up on the story and gone back in a time machine to print it in January this year?
Then gone back forward in time to confirm people are leaving in droves and justified that assertion with some figures?
Errrrrrr no.
Sorry Waz was I meant to miss the date on the top? It's just when you said read it, I read it.

I'm afraid it's another 1 out of 10

[mrsgee]

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/r ... 58756.html

The Evening Standard appears to have picked up the story.
Is it time that the reports are taken in good faith and reports are correct?

In the infamous words of Eric Morecambe.... eeevnin stannaaard.... gave me a little chuckle that.... thanks Waz....

[waz-24-7]

OK here's another media report which I assume as it is in a paper you will take in good faith without question?


https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brit ... -kmhgsntsn
[/quote]

Thanks for that media article.
Not very relevant to this topic.
However and regardless of that.
It is good news if the prediction is proved correct.
I will be interested which sectors of the UK economy will provide the indicated growth.
Furthermore growth rates is not a competition of critical importance.
It is growth and earning foreign currency. Growth within the private sector, particularly exports. The private sector will then pay for the public sector, its expenditure, pensions and social welfare.

Certainly I will not take the disbelieving path that you chose when the media report non pleasing news

[waz-24-7]

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/r ... 58756.html

The Evening Standard appears to have picked up the story.
Is it time that the reports are taken in good faith and reports are correct?

In the infamous words of Eric Morecambe.... eeevnin stannaaard.... gave me a little chuckle that.... thanks Waz....

No worries,
A bit of laughter is a marvelous remedy for so many woes.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

It is good news if the prediction is proved correct.
I will be interested which sectors of the UK economy will provide the indicated growth.

No Ifs or details Waz just accept it in good faith as you do all news stories

[waz-24-7]

It is good news if the prediction is proved correct.
I will be interested which sectors of the UK economy will provide the indicated growth.

No Ifs or details Waz just accept it in good faith as you do all news stories

I certainly do.
It's a forecast so we will in this case wait and see.
I still remain interested to see which sectors will show the predicted growth.
By the same token
Pre Brexit industrialists, politician and scholars predicted the losses should Brexit succeed.
That still remains to be determined and proven either way. I think to date the issues are indeed coming forth almost daily.
I still await the benefits and ask politely. Can some one tell me of any. Any at all!!

[erol]

You aren’t biased are you?

Puerile question imo. We are all on that spectrum so to know I am on it means nothing at all. literally.

My problem with how you behave here is all about identity. My biases are a fundamental part of my identity, of who I am. You do not get to define my identity to suit the needs of your biases your identity. My biases are not an opposite version of yours. I am not an 'anti you' who's only function is for you to have someone to 'crush' and 'destroy' in argument here.

There is a small subset of things I consciously chose to believe regardless and despite any and all evidence. None of them is an 'ism' or political ideology.

For me party politics as it is today is 4th or 5th order interest. I do not believe party politics, who you vote for, is where progress come from. In my experience progress does or does not happen regardless and often despite of who anyone voted for not because of it. Hence I do not vote.

What is first order for me. what I truly yearn for, is progress. Not marxism, not socialism, or any other 'anti' box that is just a reflection of your identity and biases. Your are welcome to your identity but it would be refreshing if you were to stop telling me and everyone else that you know who I really am better than me and calling me a liar when I disagree with you.

You are on the fence, only interested in facts?

The fence's only existence is in your mind. It does not exist anywhere else. Only interested in progress.

No axe to grind?

Plenty but they are my axes. You do not get to tell me what my axes are. What they have to be. That they can only be yours or a direct opposite of yours and nothing else is allowed.

Like I said you’ve been rumbled old son or if you aren’t sure I can help you realise what side of the fence you are unequivocally on.

Yes you keep openly calling me a liar here about who I say I am from behind your keyboard. Say it to my face. Old son. Go on I dare you. Of course you know what side of the fence I am unequivocally on because that fence's only existence is as a construct you make up in your head.

That’s fine just be honest

It honestly saddens me that I actually appear to have more value to you as a human being as your needed 'anti you' that you yourself construct and define here on the forum than I do as a person in real life. Say it to my face. It genuinely feels that being here as your self created and defined leftist liberal punchbag and punch line that you can then crush and destroy to once again win your argument with is more valuable to you. Nor am I even sure that you realise that a victory where you are a competitor and get to define where the pitch is and and also sole judge on who won, is not actually that much of a victory.

So no I do not ignore evidence based on which political party I support in the way or degree that you do because I do not think it really matters to the things that matter to me, who anyone votes for in the wat or degree you appear to. I reserve my biases for the things that matter to me.

[erol]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brit ... -kmhgsntsn

It is good news if the prediction is proved correct.

As far as I can see that is an article from Jan 2020 and reports the IMF's projected growth for 2020 and 2021 at that time. Here are the IMF's real GDP growth figures for 2020 today , nearly two years on from that article

https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper ... A/WEOWORLD

Real GDP growth 2020

UK -9.8%
France -8%
Germany -4.6%
G7 average -4.9%
EU average -5.9%

[EnjoyingTheSun]

I do not believe party politics, who you vote for, is where progress come from. In my experience progress does or does not happen regardless and often despite of who anyone voted for not because of it. Hence I do not vote.

What is first order for me. what I truly yearn for, is progress. Not marxism, not socialism

Ok Erol in all that word salad which said very little you’ve absolutely convinced me.
The next time the U.K. political leaders have a televised debate I will wait with baited breath for the smoke to go up and you to give your completely unbiased considered opinion as to who you think came over the best.
I’m not going to second guess here because I know you’ll listen to the arguments without favour but I’m going to guess the person will be wearing a red tie.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

As far as I can see that is an article from Jan 2020

To be honest I didn’t read the whole article as I had no intention of signing up for a free trial I just went for the headline to check Waz’s reaction but what is more interesting that no comment on the misleading articles articles Waz quoted
Always ready to pick at a thread of anything you don’t agree with but have complete word blindness to something you support but still insisting your remain above it all.
His words eh Erol?

[erol]

As far as I can see that is an article from Jan 2020

To be honest I didn’t read the whole article as I had no intention of signing up for a free trial I just went for the headline to check Waz’s reaction but what is more interesting that no comment on the misleading articles articles Waz quoted
Always ready to pick at a thread of anything you don’t agree with but have complete word blindness to something you support but still insisting your remain above it all.
His words eh Erol?

You sit in a thread without shame or irony, where a poster claimed the rules are the same for a German citizen that wants to live in Spain as they are for a UK citizen post Brexit and you say nothing , not a dickie bird, whilst relentlessly attacking and criticising me for the things I did not comment on. That is how you behave here. Always have. We both comment on what we want to but only one of us (systematically) tries to use that to 'prove' the others persons insincerity. You have been doing this for years now. Its boring.

I do not insist I am above it all. I claim I am less biased than you based just on narrow party political support because I AM less biased than you in that regard. It is just a fact as far as I am concerned. I am less biased than you because I care less than you who wins any given election. It would be hard to find anyone who was NOT less biased than you on that score. Or at least the 'internet forum' you.

[PoshinDevon]

Without any detailed facts; figures or evidence, relying on a broad brush headline and “in my experience” (Which will be biased) is no way to try and debate this topic.

So why bother is now my way of thinking.

[erol]

Without any detailed facts; figures or evidence, relying on a broad brush headline and “in my experience” (Which will be biased) is no way to try and debate this topic.

So why bother is now my way of thinking.

Without the need for any detailed facts or evidence, I know that Brexit has to have some negative impact on the numbers of UK citizens that chose to live in EU countries and that the impact can only have been and be negative. I know this like I know water will run downhill. I remain bemused why people were and are spending so much time and energy then 'dissecting' a single news item and wanting to know exactly how many people left, exactly why they left , how much is a drove and the like. Why bother ? Yet people were bothering, before I even entered the thread and it was my bemusement at that that led me to enter the thread in the first place.

[PoshinDevon]

Without any detailed facts; figures or evidence, relying on a broad brush headline and “in my experience” (Which will be biased) is no way to try and debate this topic.

So why bother is now my way of thinking.

Without the need for any detailed facts or evidence, I know that Brexit has to have some negative impact on the numbers of UK citizens that chose to live in EU countries and that the impact can only have been and be negative. I know this like I know water will run downhill. I remain bemused why people were and are spending so much time and energy then 'dissecting' a single news item and wanting to know exactly how many people left, exactly why they left , how much is a drove and the like. Why bother ? Yet people were bothering, before I even entered the thread and it was my bemusement at that that led me to enter the thread in the first place.

Erol,

I have always acknowledged throughout my posts that when the U.K. left the EU then some expats may well have decided to leave Spain. I have no issues with this.

My issue as you well know is why some are happy to accept the headline “ leaving Spain in droves “ without really understanding if this is backed by reasons, hard evidence or just something spouted out for the gullible to swallow. It means nothing without more detail.

I am on the opposite side of the fence; and unlike you, I am bemused by those who do not want to challenge this chip paper headline.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

I do not insist I am above it all. I claim I am less biased than you based just on narrow party political support because I AM less biased than you in that regard. It is just a fact as far as I am concerned. I am less biased than you because I care less than you who wins any given election.

Of course you are
The sad thing is you probably think you are.

Of course you might be like one of those students at university that has been taught critical thinking by the lecturer so they question everything except the left wing dogma taught by the lecturer and other sources he says of course.

But eventually the students go out in the real world, grow up and realise that 99% of what he was telling them is complete drivel.

Of course you have some whose life is that cosseted that they never had to grow up, get out there and smell the coffee.

My biases are I despise extremism, hypocrisy and I prefer small government.
I want the government no matter what shade to have as little say in my life as possible.
The more the government gets involved in anything the more they cock it up.
Occasionally they might have a good idea but they will execute it poorly so it will be an expensive disaster.
We now have professional politicians many of whom have never held what I would call a real job.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

I remain bemused why people were and are spending so much time and energy then 'dissecting' a single news item and wanting to know exactly how many people left, exactly why they left , how much is a drove and the like. Why bother ? Yet people were bothering, before I even entered the thread and it was my bemusement at that that led me to enter the thread in the first place.

Because things may produce problems and you would like to know how big a problem some are pretending this is.
Also the context. Is the problem people are now facing because they wanted to have their cake and eat it. Have all the benefits of living in Spain without the disadvantages? Well they are having their wake up and smell the coffee moment which after the initial shock always does people good.

The liberation of the concentration camps caused massive unemployment of the guards. Big problem or a who gives a "ooops" problem?

All the council houses in a borough need their leaky roofs replaced but the work will cause all agoraphobic transsexual vegan’s self diagnosed PTSD to flare up.

Obviously some will try to convince you there are tens of thousands of people like this there aren’t but there are a lot of people who like a lot of attention and they tend to be very noisy.
Again another for the who gives a "ooops" out tray.

So again, when you say droves???

[erol]

I do not insist I am above it all. I claim I am less biased than you based just on narrow party political support because I AM less biased than you in that regard. It is just a fact as far as I am concerned. I am less biased than you because I care less than you who wins any given election.

Of course you are
The sad thing is you probably think you are.

I do think that. What is more I think the evidence is compelling.

Of course you might be like one of those students at university that has been taught critical thinking by the lecturer so they question everything except the left wing dogma taught by the lecturer and other sources he says of course.

You do not want to argue against me. You want to argue against a student that has been etc etc etc, so that is what you do. The fact that I left school at 16 and have never been taught critical thinking is literally irrelevant to you.

Of course you have some whose life is that cosseted that they never had to grow up, get out there and smell the coffee.

You do not want to argue against me. How cosseted my life may or may not have been is literally irrelevant to you when you make this argument. You want to argue, need to argue. can only argue against someone in this way who has had a cosseted life , so that is the box stuff me regardless.

You come here to play and win

First you define the pitch, the only pitch you will play on. Everything is a battle between political left and right.
Then you define what your opponent is. Has to be. If you need them to be a radical marxist to make your argument then that is what they are. If you need them to be a cosseted student then that is what they are.
Then having defined the pitch and who your opponent must be totally regardless of who they actually, up to the point you just call them liars if they dare say that is not who I am , you then judge on your own who 'wins' any given argument. The degree of pleasure and self satisfaction you derive from these 'victories' is self evident.

My biases are I despise extremism, hypocrisy and I prefer small government.

I fear extremism, I dislike hypocrisy and I want the size of government that is most compatible with securing progress. But none of that matters. If you want to argue against an extremist radical hypocritical Marxist , then that is what I am. Up to the point where you can and will and literally did state that what I said about myself were lies and I do not really care about racism as much as I care about progressing the cause of radical Marxism. From behind your keyboard. All whilst demanding and vigorously defending your right for yourself to be able to express wanting exactly the same thing that a racist would want, for different reasons than them, without anyone being able to make any link what so ever between you and racism. You did all this. I can show you. There is a total documentary record and history. I do not consider this playing fair myself. I have said this before. This is also the same point in time you went from appearing to enjoy having a very occasional beer with me to someone who will say things about me here but not to my face.

I want the government no matter what shade to have as little say in my life as possible.

The problem with you anarchist is that you know what you do not want but have very little to say when pressed on the details of what it is you do want.

Do you see what I did there ? How I stuffed you in a box labelled 'anarchist', with all the connotations of extremism and much else that go along with that box, With absolutely no regard or thought for if you actually are or are not an anarchist because it suits the argument to do that. Welcome to my world, old son.

I want the amount of government no matter what shade that is most compatible with getting progress. If we need more government for progress I want more. If we need less for progress I want less.

The more the government gets involved in anything the more they cock it up.

I think that level of simplification is unrelated to how progress actually happens in reality.

We now have professional politicians many of whom have never held what I would call a real job.

How many times have you voted in your life in UK gen election ?

[Brazen]

Perhaps this will enlighten a few people.


https://www.thelocal.es/20211022/brexit ... ids-claim/

[EnjoyingTheSun]

How many times have you voted in your life in UK gen election ?

I appreciate how hard people struggle to get the vote and think it is spitting on their struggle to not vote.
I will even tell you how I voted and my reasons.
I'll ask you how you would have voted knowing you won't answer.

1979 Thatcher. The country had huge economic problems and we needed to try something new.
1983 Thatcher. By now I wasn't convinced Thatcher was the answer and didn't buy into the Falklands bit but I wasn't going to vote for a party that was riddled with Militant/Marxists.
1987 Kinnock. We had an alternative to Thatcher and whilst Kinnock was a bit of a windbag I thought he was a good man
1992 Kinnock. I thought Major was a decent man but 13 years of Conservatism was enough and I felt LAbour was now electable
1997 Blair, We really did need a change and whilst I wasn't a huge fan of Blair I did think there were some capable people in LAbour, Brown especially.
2001 Kennedy. I don't generally vote Liberal as it is a wasted vote but by now I realised Blair was a snake oil salesman and Hague didn't convince me as a viable alternative.
2005 Kennedy. Same as above but swap Howard who I loathed for Hague.
2010 Brown. I saw Cameron as Blair in a blue tie. I think Labour were done tbh but thought Brown was pretty sensible.
2015 Cameron. Didn't want another coalition and thought Milliband was a joke
2017. May. Thought May was totally useless but wasn't voting for a Marxist. Whatever damage May did would probably be repairable,
2019. Johnson. Would deliver Brexit which was the people's will and again not a Marxist. No fan of Johnson but the alternatives are frightening.

Next election. Probably Johnson again. He's done ok. Just ok. But acknowledge that anyone would have struggled with the hand he has been dealt.
Starmer I struggle with. He seemed willing to ignore the will of the people on Brexit which is never a trait I like in a politician and I'm not convinced he has control of his party. I think you might vote Starmer and the Momentum mob will pull a Livingstone GLC coup on us.
If he does what needs to be done in his party and sends the SWP back to the SWP then he might be worth a look.

I'm pretty much centre to centre right but the problem with the centre is they have a tendency to not do much.

Honest enough?
I'll ask you how you would have voted but we both know you won't
You'll just say you never voted which might be true. Your integrity will keep you above all of that and not putting a cross will of course allow you to Monday morning quarterback but only the one way.
I assume you just contented yourself on slaughtering the Conservatives and Liberals in each election and stayed loudly silent on Labour.

The thing is I would never blame Corbyn for potentially destroying the country. He isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer and no doubt sincerely believes he is doing what is best. I do blame those who would sleepwalk their way in letting him destroy the country.

[PoshinDevon]

Perhaps this will enlighten a few people.


https://www.thelocal.es/20211022/brexit ... ids-claim/

Think you have to subscribe to read article.

[Brazen]

Perhaps this will enlighten a few people.


https://www.thelocal.es/20211022/brexit ... ids-claim/

Think you have to subscribe to read article.

That’s strange cos I didn’t have to

[erol]

I think a reality where by you have voted in every election and can and have listed, with some relish, how you voted and why in each one and chucked in what you think about those who do not vote and I have only ever voted once in a UK GE is plain and clear compelling evidence that you care about party politics more than me. You care more and therefore inevitably are more biased than me on that subject. On subjects that I care about more than you I will inevitably be more biased than you.

[erol]

Perhaps this will enlighten a few people.


https://www.thelocal.es/20211022/brexit ... ids-claim/

Think you have to subscribe to read article.

That’s strange cos I didn’t have to

Paywalled for me too. Copy and paste it.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

I think a reality where by you have voted in every election and can and have listed, with some relish, how you voted and why in each one and chucked in what you think about those who do not vote and I have only ever voted once in a UK GE is plain and clear compelling evidence that you care about party politics more than me. You care more and therefore inevitably are more biased than me on that subject. On subjects that I care about more than you I will inevitably be more biased than you.

You asked me whether I vote and I replied and why and for who.
Obviously you say with relish because that's how you spin things. I gave an honest answer to illustrate that I am not a dyed in the wool Tory.

I invited for you to say who you did or would have voted knowing you wouldn't and you didn't let me down.
I understand why you didn't because if you did so it might reveal that you are not loftily above party politics as you profess.
Like I say you've been rumbled

[EnjoyingTheSun]

Perhaps this will enlighten a few people.


https://www.thelocal.es/20211022/brexit ... ids-claim/

Think you have to subscribe to read article.

I can sum it up best by saying there are some people who would like to put £20 on a horse at 20-1 in the Grand National because when it wins they win £400. But if it comes second they lose everything. So some would like to be able to switch their bet at this stage to £10 each way so they still win albeit not as much and also for the bet to be void if the horse doesn't come in the top 4.
Unfortunately bookies just like the UK and Spain can't economically support the have your cake and eat it theory.

[erol]

I am on the opposite side of the fence; and unlike you, I am bemused by those who do not want to challenge this chip paper headline.

Give me a headline about something I do personally care about and I am all over it. Will want all the detail, will question everything complete with my own biases at least as much as most and probably more than many. Give me a headline like 'Bitcoin adoption by El Salvador is a runaway success or unmitigated disaster and you bet I will be all over it. Like a rash. That is about something that I believe could be a driver for change and you can not have progress without change. Hence my interest. I do not see how knowing exactly how many people have left Spain and why at any given point in time is anything to do with progress, so my personal interest in that is low.

You are interested in how many people actually in reality have left Spain. As it is entirely your right to be. I am not and have tried to explain why.

[erol]

I think a reality where by you have voted in every election and can and have listed, with some relish, how you voted and why in each one and chucked in what you think about those who do not vote and I have only ever voted once in a UK GE is plain and clear compelling evidence that you care about party politics more than me. You care more and therefore inevitably are more biased than me on that subject. On subjects that I care about more than you I will inevitably be more biased than you.

You asked me whether I vote and I replied and why and for who.
Obviously you say with relish because that's how you spin things. I gave an honest answer to illustrate that I am not a dyed in the wool Tory.

I invited for you to say who you did or would have voted knowing you wouldn't and you didn't let me down.
I understand why you didn't because if you did so it might reveal that you are not loftily above party politics as you profess.
Like I say you've been rumbled

I had already said on more than one occasion in the past exactly how many times I have voted in UK GE election ever - once and why - because I had just got the franchise and who for - labour candidate and that I had never voted since then. Do you want me to show you ?

My point remains that it is pretty dam unlikely that someone who has only voted once in their life in a UK GE in reality cares as much about party politics as someone who has voted in every GE they could. You clearly care more about party politics than I do and at the same time you clearly believe despite this that you are also less biased about party politics than I am. Even though your interest is clearly and demonstrably more vested than mine as shown by our own actions over decades, you refuse to even countenance that could lead you to being more biased on that issue than me.

If you think 'with relish' was unfair I retract it without reservation and replace it with 'without hesitancy'

[Brazen]

Posh, try this

https://www.thelocal.es/20211022/brexit ... ids-claim/

[waz-24-7]

Of course there is clear bias within this topic,
This is clearly around political allegiances and also Brexit.

The numerous reports of an exodus of some ex pats from Spain and possibly other EU countries is supported by the fact that Brexit has Changed the position for ex pats in the EU. Just as EU citizens have departed the UK. The reasons are very similar.
Residence is more difficult. An air of "not welcome" and a change in legal status are very understandable reasons .

It is most definitely not a coincidence, or based upon "normal" changes of circumstances.

Is the matter important. To many not. Mainly those that had little regard or possibly understanding of what Brexit really meant.
To me and many Europeans and UK citizens. It is as the countries diverge and bicker over customs borders, fishing rights and many co operations taken for granted in past decades.

This is most certainly not ,in any shape or form, at positive. The inter cross border bickering within Europe past 100 years led to the two largest conflicts in modern history.
Where are we going with this culture of separatism and protectionist ideology?

[Brazen]

Here it is copied and pasted:


BREXIT: Is it true Britons are leaving Spain ‘in droves’ as UK tabloids claim?


22 October 2021
17:51 CEST

If you've scanned some of the UK’s tabloid newspapers in recent weeks you would be forgiven for thinking that there’s a mass exodus of Britons from Spain. The Local finds out what is really happening on the Spanish 'costas'.
Reports have claimed thousands of Britons – particularly retirees – are leaving the popular destinations of the Costa Blanca and Costa Del Sol because of Brexit complications, but is it really true?

Has Brexit changed people’s lives to such an extent that they’re packing up and leaving? Are Brits selling up and returning to the UK?

This would certainly buck a trend which has seen Brits flocking to Spain for decades. The great quality of life, sunny weather, slow pace of life and affordable house prices have helped make it a dream holiday home location for many Brits, with the latest Spanish government estimates suggesting 800,000 to 1 million Britons own a property in Spain.

In addition to the holidaymakers are 381,448 Britons resident in Spain, according to Spain’s Migration Agency. Andalucia, which includes Malaga and the Costa del Sol, is home to the largest number of Brits, which makes up almost 30 percent of the total.

The Valencian Community, where the Costa Blanca is located, comes in second with 27 percent of the total. In the province of Alicante alone there are over 85,000 Brits.

The British have long been the biggest home buyers in Spain, and this trend continued into the 1Q of 2021, despite both Brexit and the Covid-19 pandemic.

However, there was a fall in new purchases in 2Q to just 9.5 percent of the total foreign purchases – a record low – with the Germans a close second on 9 percent, according to data from the Colegio de Registradores (Spains Property Registry).

It seems if anything Covid-19 has had more of an effect on property purchases in Spain than Brexit.

According to Alicante province real estate group Provia, Britons bought over 600 properties between April and June of this year, half the pre-COVID figure, but are still the largest group of foreign buyers in the area.

But while a drop in purchases may mean less Britons are relocating to Spain it does not mean those already here are fleeing.

People drink in a bar in Benalmadena Spain
Spain has more Britons officially registered as residents than it did before Brexit.

According to estate agents on the Costa Blanca and Costa del Sol that spoke to The Local, there has been no uptick in sales – something that would indicate an exodus.

“We haven’t noticed an important effect one way or the other,” Giselle from Bromley Estates Marbella explained.

“We haven’t had a mass influx of people wanting to list their properties to sell.”

Another agent from Engel Voeker Benidorm said the situation was similar on the Costa Blanca.

“There’s not a lot of people from England selling their homes,” she told The Local, adding that the situation was largely “the same as before Brexit and Covid.”

Giselle agreed: “The British are still buying, the British are still selling …there’s no mass exodus.”

So where did these tabloid headlines come from?

According to several agents, those that are selling their properties in Spain aren’t doing so for Brexit-related reasons.

Ingrid from GA Homefinders in the Gran Alacant area of Alicante province said many of the Britons selling would have done so anyway regardless of Brexit.

“They’d have been selling anyway, but for different reasons,” she says. “I don’t see people leaving the country.” If there is any Brexit effect on the Spanish property market, it is not to drastically alter it but to simply speed it up: these people “would have sold anyway maybe two or three years later,” Ingrid says, but because of Brexit “they may as well do it now.”

Many of these are retirees who arrived in the early 2000s – then in their 60s- and are now at an age where they want or need to be closer to home. “You get a little bit older,” Ingrid says, “you need to see the doctor more, and you want to do that in your own language.”

These older property sellers aside, it seems the reality on the Spanish costas isn’t as simple as a Brexit inspired exodus.

In fact, for some on the Costa del Sol the new Brexit regulations are having the opposite effect: “Some British are looking to buy because if they own a property they can get a visa,” Giselle says.

Under new Spanish rules, owning a property over a certain value can make you eligible for residency, the so-called golden visa.

All agents who spoke to The Local were certain that Brits will continue to come to the Costa Blanca and Costa del Sol. COVID-19 travel restrictions may have slowed new property purchases, and there are some older Britons returning home after many happy years abroad, but Spain will always be a popular destination for both British holidaymakers and retirees.

“Everybody’s been waiting for the Brexit effect,” Giselle says, but for now, there doesn’t seem to have been a particularly unusual one on the Spanish property market, and there’s no mass exodus of Britons as reported in the UK.

So has Brexit really influenced British property owners’ decision to sell up?

The Local Spain’s previous article “What worries British second home owners in Spain most about Brexit” suggests there are a number of Brexit-related reasons these property owners could put their homes on the market, from higher taxes as non-EU residents to the 90-day rule and residency dilemmas.

Whether these concerns have actually convinced many Britons to officially part ways with Spain doesn’t seem to be the case thus far.

Head of Bremain in Spain and MBE Sue Wilson told The Local: “I have personally been approached many times to provide examples of those returning to the UK, even by Spanish TV. The answer has always been the same – despite having put out a call to Bremain in Spain’s 6000+ members, I have been hard pressed to find anyone that fits the bill.

“Rather, our members have reported back that the traffic of Brits migrating, across various parts of Spain, has been in the other direction.

“It’s true that there are examples of British second-home owners selling up now they can no longer spend as much of the winter as they would like in the EU, thanks to the 90-day rule.

“But these people were never Spanish residents, even though, in many cases, they should have been. In truth, whether you support the new post-Brexit arrangements or not, they have forced us all to evaluate where we call home. For many of us – not least thanks to the UK becoming unrecognisable to us – that is most definitely Spain.”

Article by Conor Patrick Faulkner

[waz-24-7]

Posh, try this

https://www.thelocal.es/20211022/brexit ... ids-claim/

Thanks the report appears to center around estate agent reports upon real estate sales.
Many Europeans including Brits retire to in this case Spain. Some can afford it.
These people who buy real estate are by enlarge middle to upper class with some assets and investments to facilitate property purchase.

There are, however, many that cannot afford to purchase. and need to work to make end meet. It is these that in the main find it financially challenging to go through the often expensive and bureaucratic process of residency and work permits to facilitate an offshore lifestyle.

We see exactly the same in Cyprus where thousand upon thousands of migrants live and work under student or alien or other status.
The generally wealthier Europeans of course purchase villas and cars etc and go through the due process of residency, Kimlik etc. A process that takes time , patience and of course money.

[Brazen]

Posh, try this

https://www.thelocal.es/20211022/brexit ... ids-claim/

Thanks the report appears to center around estate agent reports upon real estate sales.
Many Europeans including Brits retire to in this case Spain. Some can afford it.
These people who buy real estate are by enlarge middle to upper class with some assets and investments to facilitate property purchase.

There are, however, many that cannot afford to purchase. and need to work to make end meet. It is these that in the main find it financially challenging to go through the often expensive and bureaucratic process of residency and work permits to facilitate an offshore lifestyle.

We see exactly the same in Cyprus where thousand upon thousands of migrants live and work under student or alien or other status.
The generally wealthier Europeans of course purchase villas and cars etc and go through the due process of residency, Kimlik etc. A process that takes time , patience and of course money.

So are you saying that this report is a load of b*ll*cks? What a surprise!

[PoshinDevon]

Thanks for the link.

Read it through carefully and it certainly doesn’t change my mind that the supposed “Brit ex pats leaving Spain in droves” headline is indeed just a chip paper attempt to suck in the gullible.

At least this article attempted to produce some evidence and indeed the feedback from Spanish estate agents seems to contradict the chip paper.

No doubt some are leaving Spain but not necessarily primarily as a result of Brexit. By the same token some are also choosing to move to Spain.

Leaving Spain in droves…. Utter rubbish.

[waz-24-7]

Posh, try this

https://www.thelocal.es/20211022/brexit ... ids-claim/

Thanks the report appears to center around estate agent reports upon real estate sales.
Many Europeans including Brits retire to in this case Spain. Some can afford it.
These people who buy real estate are by enlarge middle to upper class with some assets and investments to facilitate property purchase.

There are, however, many that cannot afford to purchase. and need to work to make end meet. It is these that in the main find it financially challenging to go through the often expensive and bureaucratic process of residency and work permits to facilitate an offshore lifestyle.

We see exactly the same in Cyprus where thousand upon thousands of migrants live and work under student or alien or other status.
The generally wealthier Europeans of course purchase villas and cars etc and go through the due process of residency, Kimlik etc. A process that takes time , patience and of course money.

So are you saying that this report is a load of b*ll*cks? What a surprise!

absolutely not. Are you saying that?
I made a point that is quite clear.
For avoidance of doubt.
The point is that the wealthy and affluent sector of the ex pat community in Spain can in fact afford to stay and enjoy the sun
Just as in Cyprus.
It is the working community that are unable to retire and are effected by the identified issues of visas , permits and residency.
Home ownership should not be accepted as the benchmark for the on the ground situation.
I wonder how many of the ex pats in Spain are indeed retired?
How many are villa owners?
How many are working ex pats living in rented or other accommodation on the basis of affordability and possibility?
No surprise there is there??

[waz-24-7]

Thanks for the link.

Read it through carefully and it certainly doesn’t change my mind that the supposed “Brit ex pats leaving Spain in droves” headline is indeed just a chip paper attempt to suck in the gullible.

At least this article attempted to produce some evidence and indeed the feedback from Spanish estate agents seems to contradict the chip paper.

No doubt some are leaving Spain but not necessarily primarily as a result of Brexit. By the same token some are also choosing to move to Spain.

Leaving Spain in droves…. Utter rubbish.

Like wise,
If the initial reports were using home ownership as the benchmark for an exodus then possibly.
Home ownership by retirees and swallows simply cannot reflect the picture correctly.
Just as in Cyprus the financial and bureaucratic constraints of being a working ex pat do indeed influence decisions to emigrate and make a decent life.
I think it wrong to rubbish the first report because you think estate agent reports of villa ownership is rather more plausible.

I agree that the better off even the wealthy can still emigrate and retire because they can both financially and of course they are willing to jump the hoops.
Working people who possibly seek a better working life or even start a bushiness. Far more unlikely and this sector is very likely to be those upping sticks. Of course pre 2016 it was quite easy to do...for any ex pat.. Suprise suprise.

[Geoff1131]

And waz still goes on and on and on and on. And when he is finished going on and on, he goes on a bit more.

[Brazen]

Thanks the report appears to center around estate agent reports upon real estate sales.
Many Europeans including Brits retire to in this case Spain. Some can afford it.
These people who buy real estate are by enlarge middle to upper class with some assets and investments to facilitate property purchase.

There are, however, many that cannot afford to purchase. and need to work to make end meet. It is these that in the main find it financially challenging to go through the often expensive and bureaucratic process of residency and work permits to facilitate an offshore lifestyle.

We see exactly the same in Cyprus where thousand upon thousands of migrants live and work under student or alien or other status.
The generally wealthier Europeans of course purchase villas and cars etc and go through the due process of residency, Kimlik etc. A process that takes time , patience and of course money.

So are you saying that this report is a load of b*ll*cks? What a surprise!

absolutely not. Are you saying that?
I made a point that is quite clear.
For avoidance of doubt.
The point is that the wealthy and affluent sector of the ex pat community in Spain can in fact afford to stay and enjoy the sun
Just as in Cyprus.
It is the working community that are unable to retire and are effected by the identified issues of visas , permits and residency.
Home ownership should not be accepted as the benchmark for the on the ground situation.
I wonder how many of the ex pats in Spain are indeed retired?
How many are villa owners?
How many are working ex pats living in rented or other accommodation on the basis of affordability and possibility?
No surprise there is there??

Don’t estate agents also do rentals for those that can’t afford to purchase? They do in NC, they do in the Uk and they most probably do in Spain. Methinks you are clutching at straws! At least I have tried to put a figure to the “droves” without success, but by trying have discovered that according to those in Spain that know the truth that the headlines are definitely not true.

[Brazen]

So are you saying that this report is a load of b*ll*cks? What a surprise!

absolutely not. Are you saying that?
I made a point that is quite clear.
For avoidance of doubt.
The point is that the wealthy and affluent sector of the ex pat community in Spain can in fact afford to stay and enjoy the sun
Just as in Cyprus.
It is the working community that are unable to retire and are effected by the identified issues of visas , permits and residency.
Home ownership should not be accepted as the benchmark for the on the ground situation.
I wonder how many of the ex pats in Spain are indeed retired?
How many are villa owners?
How many are working ex pats living in rented or other accommodation on the basis of affordability and possibility?
No surprise there is there??

Don’t estate agents also do rentals for those that can’t afford to purchase? They do in NC, they do in the Uk and they most probably do in Spain. Methinks you are clutching at straws! At least I have tried to put a figure to the “droves” without success, but by trying have discovered that according to those in Spain that know the truth the headlines are definitely not true. It doesn’t really surprise me that the main culprit is the Mirror because they supported remain and have an axe to grind.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

Thanks the report appears to center around estate agent reports upon real estate sales.

So the original report which you were all over like a cheap suit wasn’t based on reports from an estate agent and ‘travel expert.’

I assume the travel experts based it on the travel to and from Spain.
Is is possible and I’m throwing it out there as a real wild theory that travel to and from Spain has been effected the same as travel to and from other countries over the last year or so.
Now what could have caused that?
“Give me a C”
“Give me an O”

You know the rest.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

I had already said on more than one occasion in the past exactly how many times I have voted in UK GE election ever - once and why - because I had just got the franchise and who for - labour candidate and that I had never voted since then. Do you want me to show you ?

My point remains that it is pretty dam unlikely that someone who has only voted once in their life in a UK GE in reality cares as much about party politics as someone who has voted in every GE they could. You clearly care more about party politics than I do and at the same time you clearly believe despite this that you are also less biased about party politics than I am. Even though your interest is clearly and demonstrably more vested than mine as shown by our own actions over decades, you refuse to even countenance that could lead you to being more biased on that issue than me.

If you think 'with relish' was unfair I retract it without reservation and replace it with 'without hesitancy'

You asked a question and I answered it.
Any question I ask, you totally avoid And bury your non answer in 2000 words of word salad
I am so biased by party politics that I have voted in 11 elections for the following;
Conservative 5
Labour 4
Liberal 2

Considering you have no interest in party politics you are not shy giving your biased view consistently.
Which is fair enough, you like everyone else are entitled to your view.
What I find hard to stomach is the hypocrisy that you pretend to exist on a higher moral plain than everyone else.

Again do one of your famous surveys, ask if anyone thinks you have any interest in party politics and if so which side you favour.

You might be astonished by the result.
I won’t be.

[EnjoyingTheSun]

The point is that the wealthy and affluent sector of the ex pat community in Spain can in fact afford to stay and enjoy the sun
Just as in Cyprus.

How wealthy and affluent do they have to be?
To have the means to support themselves without subsidy?
I have to admit when choosing somewhere to retire to Lyford Cay in the Bahamas figured very heavily in my plans until I realised that I was about £10 million short and my family would struggle to visit me.
I guess I should have demanded they reduce property prices and the cost of living and move it a bit nearer to the U.K.
My understanding is they had the opportunity to become residents in Spain and opportunity that many out here will snap up in a heartbeat.
Again they wanted to put a bet on to win but are complaining when the horse came second they now want it each way.
Cry me a river.

[waz-24-7]

Thanks the report appears to center around estate agent reports upon real estate sales.

So the original report which you were all over like a cheap suit wasn’t based on reports from an estate agent and ‘travel expert.’

I assume the travel experts based it on the travel to and from Spain.
Is is possible and I’m throwing it out there as a real wild theory that travel to and from Spain has been effected the same as travel to and from other countries over the last year or so.
Now what could have caused that?
“Give me a C”
“Give me an O”

You know the rest.

The original report at the start of this debate was from a UK tabloid and others including BBC has also supported with a report.
As I have said. I take these reports in good faith and the reasoning makes perfect sense to me. Some take a position of denial and that is fine but on what basis?
A report by real estate agents in Spain reports a buoyant market. That too is taken in good faith. I have simply expressed a level of reasoning and this supports in fact both the said reports.
Upon your "wild " theory. I don't think we are looking at travel. This is about people that have decided to up sticks and leave Spain.

[PoshinDevon]

Is there a link to the BBC report about Brit expats leaving in droves?

I may have missed it and would be interested to read/watch and understand the evidence that the BBC may have provided.

It’s all about understanding.

[waz-24-7]

The point is that the wealthy and affluent sector of the ex pat community in Spain can in fact afford to stay and enjoy the sun
Just as in Cyprus.

How wealthy and affluent do they have to be?
To have the means to support themselves without subsidy?
I have to admit when choosing somewhere to retire to Lyford Cay in the Bahamas figured very heavily in my plans until I realised that I was about £10 million short and my family would struggle to visit me.
I guess I should have demanded they reduce property prices and the cost of living and move it a bit nearer to the U.K.
My understanding is they had the opportunity to become residents in Spain and opportunity that many out here will snap up in a heartbeat.
Again they wanted to put a bet on to win but are complaining when the horse came second they now want it each way.
Cry me a river.

Of course wealthy enough to purchase a home and with financial planning enough to support oneself in retirement.

Some of the very wealthy will have holiday homes in very expensive resorts ( not all in Spain of course) as you correctly indicate.

These people are less effected by financial stress or the need work for a living.
Spain , has for decades been a destination of choice for many Brits opening. bars, restaurants, real estate agencies , leisure enterprises for example. It is these enterprises and the ex pats within that have been thrust into situations of increased difficulty in making a living.

As I have said. Pre 2016 the move to Spain to live, work and enjoy was a fully legal right. This has now been forfeited and this has very likely led to the reported exodus.
It really is t not that difficult to grasp. OR is it?