Water tank cleaner

[Maisiemoo]

Has anyone used a 'Fresha' water tank cleaner? It apparently uses copper and silver's natural, chemical free biocidal properties to destroy bacteria, algae and mould for up to 5 years. I found this on The House of Bath website but there are only 3 reviews but they seem positive. I think they are used for mainly for water butts in the UK but I wondered if they would be effective in my water tank in NC.

[Philoz]

Copper and silver are very good at killing nasties.
I suggest you put a small amount of pool chlorine in as well to do the job properly.

[Jonnie]

I would stick with chlorine, if you can get it in liquid form all the better. It is the standard treatment for water systems to prevent and control legionella. I have a bit of experience with this so if you want any specific advice PM me.

[Aitchie]

How often is it recommended that the domestic water tanks have this clean?

[Jonnie]

A lot really depends on how much water you use really. Tanks that sit for long periods without being used are more prone to a build up of bacteria. It is important not to have too much sediment in them too as this is a breeding ground.

Also important is to keep things like shower heads free from scale as this can create a mist (as opposed to a spray) which when inhaled can also cause lead to lung infections.

[bubbles]

how much chlorine would you say to put in a 2 ton tank?

we are in a rented apartment and we have got to try and clean it first as we have noticed when our water tank went empy that its bit muddy in the bottom.

we managed to clean the 1 ton tank up on the roof let it empty and clean it with a new sweeping brush and then opened the water to continue cleaning it with the clean water.

so now we must try and clean the bottom tank as it takes the water upto the roof tank through the water pump. and we dont want it carrying dirt and germs up.

also our water pipes have got a probem, we think they are blocked from this as the cold water sometimes goes to boiling point! anybody know why?
maybe we need to get somebody to put air in the pipes and push all the dirt out. we dont no.

please if anybody can give us some info to this and abit more about the chlorine chemical aswell please that would be great.

thankyou very muchly

[Jonnie]

I will come back to you regarding the chlorine. If your cold is going hot it may be a pipe exposed to the sun or one running next to a hot one.

If you have emptied and cleaned the tanks you have largely won the battle to be honest though it would do no harm to sanitise the system.

[Dutchnick]

Back to my old Mr Fixit days!
Cleaning tanks, yes the agitation and drain method will shift the bulk of the rubbish, a hose and syphon can get the last bit of water out.
Sterilising tanks can be done with chlorine but you need very very little, too much and you will go blond and you tea will be undrinkable for weeks.
Cold water getting hot can be a lack of a non-return valve leading to your hot tank so when the water heats up and expands it goes back up the cold feed pipe. It should only be a small amount but it can ruin your whiskey and water.

[Jonnie]

Sorry meant to come back to you on this. For sanitisation purposes you need to get the level to 3ppm and leave in the system for 2 hours, this will cover any nasties. If you are using the water and it is not remaining in storage for long periods that should be enough if you keep the tanks free from debris. A maintenence dose would be .5ppm. You will need to use liquid chlorine I would start with something like 5ml per tonne and test.

[bigOz]

Chlorine is not effective against legionella! More expensive "chlorine dioxide" injection systems are used to combat the legionella disease as well as other harmful bacteria.

If you have a solar heater that can heat up the water up to 55-60 degrees, that in itself would kill the legionella.

But legionella is more of a problem in homes, hotels, schools and any other establishment where there are seasonal long breaks in continuous use of water. Legionella breeds in still / stale water environment. The same is also true for the shower heads and taps of hotel rooms that have not been used for long breaks of time.

I have the distributorship rights for injection systems + chemicals produced by a reputable UK company but the products are more popular by hotels and other establishments mentioned above - it would be an expensive exercise for a house with current systems costing around 4500 pounds sterling each. We are currently working on finding/manufacturing a smaller versions for private home use.

[Jonnie]

Beg to differ, Chlorine is advocated by the European Legionaries Disease Surveillance network, part of the European Centre for Disease control and the UK's Health and Safety executive as an effective measure against the disease. This said sensible housekeeping such as tank cleaning and shower cleaning and the flushing out of systems left for long periods are perfectly sensible measures.

[bigOz]

Chlorine is effective against most strains of Legionella but has a problem when the PH level reaches 8 or above. Furthermore, using 3 ppm Chlorine for effective combat will wear out all your water piping within 6 years or so. Flushing out the system with chlorine and/or very hot water is also a temporary solution because they do not clear out the "bio-film" effectively. That means the solution is only temporary because the "bio-films" are the nesting houses for bacteria including Legionella.

Just to give you an example of a study carried out by US National Institute of Health on three traditional methods of treatment;

"...A more quantitative comparison was carried out. At the point of 60% culturability, a set of CTC-respiring cell ratios was collected for chlorine, silver, and tobramycin. A set of BacLight live cell ratios was collected, and these sets of ratios were compared. As shown, 75% of the cells in the chlorine-treated biofilm were respiring and 80% of the cells in the chlorine-treated biofilm had healthy cell membranes, while only 30% of the cells in the tobramycin-treated biofilm, in which 60% of the cells were culturable, were respiring and 90% of the cells in the tobramycin-treated biofilm maintained their cell membrane integrity. In the case of the silver-treated biofilm, 50% of the cells retained their respiring activity, while 10% of the cells had damaged cell membranes. These results were visualized by CLSM imaging..."

You can see the full report and technical details at: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2292569/

Many other studies have been carried out over the past 2-3 years supporting the above. Hence, the rise for the need to have injection systems that would require continuous use of safe, non-corrossive, odourless alternatives such as Chlorine Dioxide as a permanent solution (injected into the main water flow automatically at set intervals whilst the water is being used).

A recent study of a well known 5 star hotel in central Girne has proved random manual additions of Chlorine into main water tanks cannot permanently solve the problem. Health Ministry in Cyprus had started a strict Legionella testing of many hotels in Girne, after Legionalla did show up on some random tests. All big hotels have been advised /ordered to take up necessary measures and some did approach us for help. However, due to lack of seriousness and follow up by the concerned Governmental departments, none have so far done anything about the problem. I know of at least one hotel who had guests leaving after falling ill. The same problem existed in South Cyprus until a few years back, when EU rules and regulations on the subject has forced all of them to introduce chlorine dioxide injectors into their water systems.

[cooper]

Hi, what does 3ppm mean?

I need to dose my 2 tonne tank for sanitation only and wish to know how many ml per tonne to use.
Also will this help to clear the lime scale which is sitting at the bottom of the tank?

[Jonnie]

You should physically remove the limescale at the bottom of the tank. 3 parts per million.

What are you trying to cure Cooper? Where do you think you have a problem?

[cooper]

Thanks for your reply.

I don't actually have a problem at the minute other than when i remove the lid on my 2 tonne tank i can see a white coating around the edges which i assume is limescale. I was thinking that a small dose of chlorine would help prevent this getting worse which if does i assume could course problems.

[Jonnie]

Chlorine will not cure the limescale.

Few things to consider.

If you get mains water it is generally ok when it comes out of the pipe, some houses have a mains tap, we have and I am happy to drink from it, however for convenience I use bottled and a chiller.

One you put water in storage you create additional problems, germs bacteria etc can breed. This is no different in the UK, indeed if I am right the sink tap in the UK is direct feed from the mains, the rest is fed from a tank in the loft. You should not drink this but it is OK for teeth cleaning etc. I consider this the same here.

Things change when you are not turning the water over, when you have tanker deliveries and when you store for long periods in warm weather.

There have been incidents of Legionella here, this tends to be in hotels where rooms/wings are not used for significant periods etc but the cases are very few and far between and hotels are taking action in conjunction with companies like Siba and Cyprus pools, both who supply Chlorine based disinfectants one of which is manufactured by diversey. This has government support.

From a domestic point of view you could end up worrying yourself into an early grave. The risks are very small. If you are using stored water at this time of year don't drink it without boiling it but I personally use it for teeth brushing salad washing etc however if it was tankered I would like to know where the well was. Considering legionella if you are concerned about that make sure shower heads are free from scale and run the shower for a few minutes before showering and of course clean your water tank out. You need to inhale the legionalla bacteria as an aerosol for it to be dangerous, you do not get it from ingestion.

Liquid chlorine will come in 16% solution, I am sure if you speak to Cyprus Pools they would be able to tell you how much to add. I know someone who was treating a 2 tonne tank with 5ml but I cannot be sure how close to the mark that was, if you have a pool test kit that would be an idea. That said a 20 litre bottle of Cholorine is going to go a long way! I can probably sort you out a half pint if it gets you on your way!

[cooper]

Thanks for that.

What is the easiest way to clean a water tank please?
also that would be very good of you if you were able to source me half a pint of chlorine although i wont be over again until October.

[Jonnie]

is it overground/Underground?

[cooper]

It is overground. I'm in a apartment block and the six tanks are stacked in two's and sit in the recess at the back of the block, mine is the furthest one in on the top.

[Jonnie]

Metal or plastic?

[cooper]

Plastic

[Jonnie]

Cooper, you may be lucky and have a drain valve on it, if not now would be a good time to fit one or have one fitted. if you have not you may have an access union on the outlet from the tank.

Isolate the feed, drain or use the tank water. If you are able to disconect the outlet at the tank or if you have a drain when nearly empty stir the contents so some of the silt comes out, but only you are draining at the tank. If not empty the tank, syphon if necessary to get as much out as possible. You should then be able to "sweep" the dregs and collect. You will probably have do cut down some brush handles and cobble together some items to collect the debris. may be a good idea at the same time to get a bottle of steriliser from the chemist, the tasteless stuff they use for kids bottles etc and rinse the tank with that too.

Chlorine no probs by the way.

[cooper]

That's very much appreciated.Thanks