waz-24-7 wrote: ↑Sun 14 Feb 2021 1:08 am
Yes, And I believe that was wrong.
It was made (possibly not sufficiently))clear that economic damage would be one of the costs.
My view was and still is that since the UK has been in the EU the average EU countries have not performed as well as countries outside the EU. So it’s very nice to play in a team but we weren’t in a particularly good one. As for the economic outcomes of leaving the EU, I do believe that The Remainers mentioned it once or twice (!) but people didn’t buy into project fear and valued democracy.
waz-24-7 wrote: ↑Sun 14 Feb 2021 1:08 am
Of course many, (possibly like yourself ) older and not relying on work for income ,took the nationalistic position that clearly you and Posh take.
That position is taken at the cost of those younger and working people that will be damaged by economic loss. Is it acceptable that this section of UK society accept loss so that some can enjoy this new freedom that you strive for?
Everything you have written on Brexit makes me think that you would vote to be taken over by Martians if it helped your business so I wouldn’t play the leavers are selfish card.
waz-24-7 wrote: ↑Sun 14 Feb 2021 1:08 am
It is quite preposterous that somehow you think people that did not follow your vote are not proud of the UK or wish for prosperity.
You should be aware that I share that position at least
You glory in every bit of bad news that Britain gets. If there is good news you grudgingly acknowledge it and say but wait until….
waz-24-7 wrote: ↑Sun 14 Feb 2021 1:08 am
I'm afraid your notion of freedom in the modern world is old hat particularly with regard to economics, trade and prosperity.
As I said I’m not convinced the EU are that great at business given they have been outperformed for the last 40 years. With regard to freedom, you do realise that you can always trade freedom for prosperity. Many French café owners earned fortunes serving Nazis. In fact the French resistance pretty much solely consisted of taking a German officer a latte instead of a cappuccino. I am sure that there are black South Africans that are not doing as well since apartheid has ended as they were under it. I think apartheid is a disgusting system but do not that under it more black Africans were trying to enter South Africa than leave it. I can only assume they were willing to trade some freedom for prosperity.
waz-24-7 wrote: ↑Sun 14 Feb 2021 1:08 am
In addition and given your nationalistic freedom viewpoint. Did the British domination over the colonial empire not totally take away those countries freedoms. Were these enslaved colonies not entitled to their freedom. I suppose that doesn't count as it was a long time ago.
Given the political landscape of EU countries I wouldn’t play the UK riddled by fascists card too much myself. The rise of far right parties in the EU is solely down to countries identities being removed by stealth.
As for the old British Empire shtick. The UK was often invaded before we started taking to the oceans. That’s what countries back then did. They took to the seas and explored and took advantage of weaker countries. We were not alone in this, The Romans, Vikings, Normans, Germans, Belgians, Portuguese, Spanish, French, Dutch, French etc etc all fought and colonised countries to empire build. Sometimes countries fought each other to see who would colonise a third party. Britain was very good at this and ended many countries glory days or took the best prizes. This is what often causes resentment. “Yes nice Armada, what did it last 15 minutes?”
Funnily that resentment often isn’t from the peoples still living in the countries we colonised. In my experience they have no problem and have moved on. You’ll often get people who have made a conscious decision to move to the UK and make it their life’s mission to criticise the UK, which begs the question, why move there? It’s a big world out there, why move to somewhere you despise?
Britain often didn’t cover themselves in glory in colonised countries but who did? Many other colonising countries were far more vicious than us. The Belgiums in Africa? The Spanish in South America?
As to Britain’s history I am proud of some parts of it and uncomfortable with other parts of it. In general though I leave history where it should be, in the past.
waz-24-7 wrote: ↑Sun 14 Feb 2021 1:08 am
Freedom is of course important. To enjoy freedom you must also hope for peace unity and co operation. Something that has been in Europe since the last two great wars when Europe was divided and nationalistic.
Should Hitler have succeeded with his plans to dominate Europe you can guarantee than within 20 years that the countries united under his control would have been peaceful and co-operative. It would not have been practical for him to keep standing armies in full states of readiness in conquered countries.
waz-24-7 wrote: ↑Sun 14 Feb 2021 1:08 am
Any break up of the Union of peace that I call the EU is a threat upon that aspiration.
NATO bought peace to Europe you just give the EU credit for it.
waz-24-7 wrote: ↑Sun 14 Feb 2021 1:08 am
I detect a clear movement backwards towards the nationalistic 1914-45 years. The UK is intrinsically liked to Europe and your inward looking focus is misplaced. Even the UK now appears to be under threat of break up. That is disturbing to me.
Yes many people in Europe are disturbed that their countries are going to be absorbed into a super state without them being given the curtesy of a vote. Most reasonable balanced people can accept losing a vote but not the lack of a vote. Being part of Europe is not anymore conditional on the EU than me being a member of the BRS to live in the TRNC.
BTW I wouldn't reply with one of your hmmms.
That indicates that you have actually read and considered someone else's view which isn't the case is it?